Until now I'd've said it was in his most famous operas. That was until I heard Cendrillon and Don Quichotte - the final scene of the latter in particular is most extraordinarily moving. What do others think?
He never really interested me until I heard his piano concerto that blew me away and still has a similar effect some 20 years later.
He is never short of a good tune.
Thal
Besides his Fantasy for Cello and Orchestra in D, I saw references to a violin concerto he composed for Henri Marteau. Is there any information available on it?
N'existe pas.
Anyway, back to the music that does exist...
For me, nothing quite matches the grandeur of the opening Prologue of Esclarmonde. It's a monologue for the Emperor Phorcas (bass), initially just against monumental organ chords but then joined by the choir and orchestra in music of sumptous lyricism and gorgeous Wagnerian chromaticism. The opera's story is Byzantine nonsense but the the rest of the piece, if not as monumental, is scarcely less attractive. I just love this middle-period Massenet of Esclarmonde, Le Mage and Thaïs, when he managed to find the perfect (for me) combination of colour, melody and spectacle.
I also love the Byzantine episodes that frame Esclarmonde. The final scene adds a brief reprise of the love music to the massed choral business from the opening. Thunderous stuff. The Met mounted it for Joan Sutherland when I was a youth...I wish they'd bring it back.
Personally I find myself returning most often to Thérèse. Brief, but chock full of drama, atmosphere, and good tunes, it also has a hair-raising ending. The stream-lined plot works well, unlike the equally-brief La Navarraise...which ends up feeling rushed and faintly absurd. Bonynge's recording is best, if you are not allergic to Tourangeau (I'm not, but some are.)
I'm currently exploring his later operas. There's something immensely touching about much of the music - it's as if he's left behind the grander gestures (which are thrilling, I agree) to concentrate on more intimate emotions. His range as an operatic composer is huge - possibly greater than that of any other composer.
If I had to choose Massenet's best and most evenly inspired, though certainly not most commercial, opera it would be "Le Jongleur de Notre Dame". As you say, Alan, Massenet's range was enormous. Could there be two more different operas than "Esclarmonde" and "Le Jongleur..." yet they are both terrific pieces.
It always amuses me how concerned Massenet was to make a quick buck! "Carmen" was soon followed by "La Navarraise", "Der Evangelimann" by "Le Jongleur...", "Andrea Chenier" by "Therese", "Hansel and Gretel" by "Cendrillon". Any other pairings?
Massenet is greatly underrated. Possibly because the language is French, rather than Italian or German, but I also sometimes detect a whiff of patronising condescention in reviews of his operas, the reason for which quite escapes me.
I'm not huge on opera (in general) but I do enjoy his orchestral music -- he wrote seven suites which are full of melody and color, as well as some suites from the operas (the one from Le Cid is pretty known), as well as like four ballets -- I own Le Carillon (Le Cigale was recorded by Bonynge but only ever, AFAIK, coupled with Swan Lake on CD so I don't have it...)
Reg. the Violin concerto, before dismissing it completely, I'd like to know what you mean - The concerto has not survived but was composed by Massenet or that this work was never composed; I ask because this Violin concerto is referenced in almost all articles regarding Henri Marteau and in atleast this book - Sibelius: A Composer's Life and the Awakening of Finland By Glenda Dawn Goss. https://books.google.com.sa/books?id=929lNk1fqXoC&pg=PA306&lpg=PA306&dq=MASSENET+violin+concerto+he+composed+for+Henri+Marteau&source=bl&ots=EZa4OWTDY5&sig=XEVbajE37drM_i6x49lR8f__siU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAgP_92b_TAhXkKcAKHVtYAo8Q6AEIOzAE#v=onepage&q=MASSENET%20violin%20concerto%20he%20composed%20for%20Henri%20Marteau&f=false
There could be many manuscripts in libraries that have not been properly cataloged .... Please clarify.
It's mentioned in Toskey too. But a mention is not proof of existence. Many references in books are simply repetitions of an initial error, rumour, etc. Obviously one can't prove the non-existence of something, but the onus is on those who think the VC exists to come up with hard evidence.
All the book on Sibelius says is: 'Jules Massenet composed a violin concerto for this virtuoso' (meaning Marteau). There's no footnote - nothing. Toskey gives a date - 1891 - and references to articles, books etc. by Eric Blom in Grove (1951, 1961), Frederic B. Emery 'The Violin Concerto' (1969) and Nicolas Slonimsky in 'Baker's Biographical Dictionary of Musicians' (1971, 1978).
It may be significant that Grove online makes no mention of Massenet's VC in the article on Marteau by Ronald Kinloch Anderson. Nor does their article on Massenet make any mention of a VC. A case of Chinese whispers at one time, maybe?
Anyway, please let's end all speculation here - until hard evidence is uncovered.
Back to the topic, please...
Yes, on topic - "Le Roi de Lahore" is the opera I return to again and again. It was one of the first to bring Massenet to public attention, and bits and pieces of that full compositional range we've discussed are found throughout the score. The ending, like "Therese," packs its own wallop. The Sutherland / Milnes recording is the definitive.
"La Vierge" is its equivalent among the oratorios; the Wedding at Cana episode is among the best of Massenet.
"Cigale" and "Carrilon" stand head and shoulders above the standard ballet scores of their time. And I totally agree about his orchestral suites, which show his mastery of orchestration. "Scenes Alsacienne" and "Scenes Pittoresque" are particularly fine.
QuoteIt was one of the first to bring Massenet to public attention
Really?
Le Roi de Lahore was actually his first 'smash hit' some dozen or so years before
Esclarmonde.
In the modern era
Manon and
Werther maintained the composer's standing long before
Esclarmonde was rediscovered and committed to disc (in 1975).
Manon was first recorded in 1923 and was regularly recorded after that;
Werther was first recorded in 1927-30 and again received regular recordings in subsequent years.
Unless I've misunderstood your point...
>Unless I've misunderstood your point...
Perhaps; I was speaking of the response when "Lahore" was first performed, not it's reception since the advent of recordings.
I think we're saying the same thing; "Lahore" was indeed the "smash hit" that gave Massenet the foundation to build success upon success in subsequent operas. Unfortunately, it's anything but a success these days, though it deserves to be.
Apologies, I entirely misread your post. I thought you were talking about Esclarmonde. Oh dear - advancing years and all that...
I know (more or less well) several operas by Massenet, having attended four of them. My preferred Massenet works, however, are the orchestral "Scenes Alsatiennes", followed by the Piano Concerto and by the ballet for the opera "Le Cid" (I had the luck to attend a performance-four of seven dances- conducted by Lopez-Cobos).I could propose among my favourite Massenet works also the Overture for Racine's Phedre and "the last sleep of the Virgin" (from the forgotten oratorio "La Vierge"): a short piece once famous, now still recorded).
What I was trying to get at in this thread is the notion that in his later operas Massenet was attempting something rather more subtle, albeit across various different genres of opera. It's the creation of scenes of extraordinary tenderness and beauty - in contrast to the grander gestures of his more famous works. I have found this so far in Grisélidis, Don Quichotte, Chérubin and Cendrillon, all of which lack the more obvious attractions of his earlier and more famous operas, but which, once you realise what he is attempting, touch the heart in new ways. Of course, many critics have argued that Massenet's genius operated at a much lower level of inspiration in these works, but I'm beginning to wonder wherther they have simply missed the point...
Has anyone here ever come across a complete recording of Bacchus? It's one of the later operas I've not heard...
I have Panurge around here somewhere. I'll give it a listen.
Picking up Alan's point about the sublety of Massenet's later operas, I'll freely admit that over the years I've tended to relegate them (and there are lots of them) to the dusty recesses of my collection in my enthusiasm to listen yet again to the blockbusters of his middle period. However, my interest is piqued now, so I'll dig out a couple in the next few days and listen again with renewed attention.
The point is not to listen to them expecting to encounter (and enjoy) the grand gestures of his earlier operas. That is the 'category mistake', as it were.
You are absolutely right, and I have just done exactly that with Sapho, which he composed in 1897, immediately before Cendrillon, and revised in 1909. I have to say that, just as you predicted, I was utterly bowled over by the range which Massenet demonstrates in this piece. It's a modern tale, reminiscent of La Traviata: a woman of a "certain age", with a disreputable past, falls in love with an innocent young man and eventually leaves him for his own good, despite his wishes. As it's essentially a modern, domestic subject, there is none of the grandeur which I love so much in Esclarmonde or Le Mage. Instead Massenet adopts a conversational, declamatory style of singing for much of the time, with few conventional arias, duets etc. It is still intensely lyrical for the most part and, although there are passages in which Sapho in particular almost shouts in frustrated rage, these are contrasted with passages of the most affecting and almost whispered tenderness in the scenes shared by the two lovers. I felt, for the first time perhaps, that here Massenet was portraying both the highs and lows of real emotion in music which goes to the heart. Thank you, Alan, my eyes (and ears) are now open...
I was sure you'd agree!
I've just finished listening to Chérubin - the comedy fizzes and the many quieter scenes are full of tenderness, even nostalgia. The critics have got Massenet 100% wrong.
Of course, these operas have to be well sung...
I also listened to a very different opera, Don Quichotte, yesterday and the impression was reinforced. There is such a plethora of moods in this piece, none of them straightforward. There's comedy, but mostly pathos, in most characters' relationships with Quixote himself. Dulcinea is haughty, but tender and caring in the way she deals with his hopeless love for her; Pancho Sanza is a comedic character, yet Massenet captures all of the nuances of his very complex attitude towards his master; even the bandit chief is touched by Quixote's mission. The music is an absolute kaleidoscope of colours, mood and pace; often riotious, frequently subtle. Ultimately Massenet manages to paint a convincing portrait of poor deluded, noble Quixote and the kindness which he brings out in others. It's a triumph in it's way. I preferred the verismo of Sapho, but there's real artistry in Don Quichotte.
What a range the man had! Both within individual operas and from opera to opera. My next port of call is Le Jongleur de Notre Dame...
Yes, I'm going to work my way through them all too now. Should keep me quiet...
Into the mix, I'll add Amadis, composed in the late period but his last opera to reach the stage (posthumously.) There are similarities, both in story and the grand gestures, to Le Cid but it also has the subtleties and nuances we've discussed. A work that really grows on you, and a fitting summation to an extraordinary career.
Re the mysterious violin concerto for Marteau: I have submitted an inquiry to the Jules Massenet Society and am awaiting their response. When I receive it I will post it here.
No, please don't, Jim. Please start a new thread.
An excellent idea sir! Will do!
Thanks, Jim. It'll make it so much easier to locate the specific topic in future. I hope the Massenet Society can shed some light on the mystery. My guess? There's no such piece. But I'd be delighted to be proved wrong.
Who knew Gounod had composed a concerto, much less 2 concertante works? It wasn't until somebody started to explore his output (and investigate the piano-pédalier literature) that his works for that instrument were discovered. All anybody had to do was dig a little.
Well, not -such - an exact analogy, since the Gounod works received a few performances (with premieres to, especially in England, dismissive reviews) and are iirc mentioned in Hinson's books on the piano literature among other things, so they were known of well before Mr. Prosseda _took them up_ and Hyperion recorded them, if, still, not performed in ages. But point taken.
Please post about the VC in the new thread:
http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,6477.msg68419.html#new (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,6477.msg68419.html#new)
I remember the bad old days when even Werther was hardly ever heard! I did get to see Esclarmonde when the Metropolitan mounted it for Sutherland and it was stupendous! The entire work is gorgeous! The criticism of his work is largely the result of the rage of modernism which is suspicious of anything that is that melodic or enjoyable. Next year, the Metropolitan will mount Cendrillon- another superb work. I could never understand why it was never mounted again- a fine cast could be put together, even after Sutherland's retirement- perhaps the "shadow" of Sutherland and the inevitable comparisons gave later sopranos pause for thought.....
I am convinced that in the US the neglect of French music, particularly opera, is primarily the result of demographics. Two of the major ethnic groups that came to the US in the late nineteenth-early twentieth century were German and Italian. Naturally they brought with them their (wonderful!) culture including music. The early years of the Metropolitan Opera is fascinating in that they presented Faust, but in Italian or German (depending on the national origin of the Director!).
I cannot chose one opera as Massenet's best- there are too many great ones!
Absolutely right. He was a genius.
Spot on, indeed.
All the above said, this week I've listened to both Esclarmonde and Thaïs - what spellbinding, glorious, operas they are!
Esclarmonde was Massenet's own personal favorite of his works (from one of the books) and I find it captivating. Another superb- and full blooded work is Herodiade. There was an extraordinary recording of highlights with an all-star French cast under Georges Pretre that I have on vinyl- Crespin, Gorr, Lance (not French by birth, but by style!) Dens, and Mars from about 1963- both Crespin and Gorr are stupendous! Massenet was also such a master of orchestration too- it almost goes unnoticed it is so perfect. Seems that both Massenet and Saint-Saens moved toward greater refinements and subtleties in their later operas (and works in general).
Lately, I have been listening to various recordings of one of Massenet's most famous arias- "Ah! fuyez douce image" - which is such a marvel as the music perfectly illuminates the conflicting emotions of the character. As usual- Georges Thill remains the ideal standard.
Yes, Thill was pretty well hors concours. I don't think there's been a French lyric-dramatic tenor to touch him in the past 50-60 years. The early Alagna was superb, but he has - very unwisely - taken on repertoire too heavy for him and ruined his voice. Gedda was also very good, but not sufficiently robust of voice to do do justice to Massenet's writing.
QuoteThe early Alagna was superb, but he has - very unwisely - taken on repertoire too heavy for him and ruined his voice.
I couldn't agree more. A stunningly beautiful instrument destroyed. (I heard from a number of singers who knew him that he was quite an arrogant young man who declined to take advice. A great shame.)
I rather forgot Albert Lance (b. Lancelot Albert Ingram in Australia) and Guy Chauvet when mentioning good, strong tenors singing in the French tradition. They'd be world stars today...
Since I'm not very familiar with the Opera world my post is more in the form of a question - As I said I'm not very familiar with the world of opera but I do listen to Lieder and standalone arias once in a while and chanced upon the Gérard Souzay singing some Fauré and Hahn. I was blown away by his delicacy, tone colour and amazing control of dynamics. How is his Massenet. I hope to listen to more and more opera in the future... with some guidance from friends here of course!
Souzay was fabulous in everything. A truly great singer and artist. He features in the classic Sills/Gedda Manon conducted by Rudel, but I'm not sure how easily available that set is these days.
...oh, and as far as tenors are concerned, I forgot to mention José Luccioni, who featured on a 1946 recording of Samson et Dalila. Again, he'd be in demand all over the world today.
....not to be confused with the French-Corsican, Georges Liccioni.
Where are all the great French-tradition tenors today?
I have a recording of his complete piano music performed by Maurizio Zaccaria but haven't had a chance to play it yet as we've been away on holiday. I'm going to rectify that situation later in the week!
Does anyone have any opinion on his piano music?
Jose Luccioni is excellent in the 1946 Samson recording, and also recorded excerpts from Otello. Another outstanding Corsican tenor was Cesar Vezzani- an extraordinary, powerful "compact" voice. He recorded Faust in 1931, I think, with Marcel Journet, and had a very long career.
There is a fascinating CD of Des Grieux's "Le Reve" as recorded by 36 different tenors of history- some famous, some not. All are interesting.
Esclarmonde still does it for me. Pure hokum it may be, but what magnificent hokum! Especially in the Decca/Bonynge recording. Soon it'll be fifty years since it came out. Where does time go?
Yep, Esclarmonde for me too. That was only the second complete opera LP set I bought and the sheer musical spectacle of the Prelude, with the Emperor Phorcas intoning between massive organ chords and then the sweeping entry of the chorus still thrills me after all these years. I love almost everything Massenet wrote, but Esclarmonde remains my favourite.
I've always wanted to hear the 1894 version of Thais. There is some very interesting music which was cut from that score. But, to my knowledge, it has never been recorded.
The original ballet music of La tentation from act one of Thais is on Naxos 8.573123 with the Barcelona Symphony Orchestra under Patrick Gallois. All twenty four minutes sixteen seconds of it!
Yes. Thanks. I already have that and it's lovely, but there was quite a lot of vocal music cut and/or replaced and some of it looks really interesting.
A resuscitation job for Bru Zane then!
That would be wonderful.
Glad I passed the test. It took me 3 hours of extensive research I might add. :)
Anyway I want to thank the OP for starting a thread on poor Jules Massenet. Yes he was a great operatic composer - one of the greatest. Unfortunately he lived during the era of Wagner so of course he merited no interest. It's also a sad fact that the French are so dismissive of their own artists.
Anyway I wanted to mention Massenet's late opera Ariane alongside the others mentioned here. Finally a legit CD issue of this opera has been issued in a beautiful book format with CDs included. Originally the opera was performed by the St Etienne opera which specializes in Massenet. There was an in house recording of that performance that came out on an unofficial CD recording. Recently however the Munchner Rundfunk (Laurent Campellone conductor) issued the conventional CDs as noted above. Really a marvelous opera and performance. Ariane of course is Ariadne. In Massenet's version Ariadne commits suicide at her abandonment by Theseus. The sequel Bacchus mentioned by a poster earlier from the few bits I have heard is significantly inferior to Ariane. I have no knowledge as to whether Strauss was even aware of this Massenet opera on Ariadne composed a few years before his own marvelous version.