Friends will be delighted to hear of the release on 26th April of York Bowen's Symphonies 1 and 2 with the BBCPO under Andrew Davis - another potential Chandos winner!!!
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Chandos/CHAN10670 (http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Chandos/CHAN10670)
Hoorah! Symphony No.2 is a gorgeous piece (previously available on a deleted volume of ClassicO's British Symphonic Collection). To have it coupled with No.1 is great and this release should be a wonderful advertisement for Bowen's individual brand of lush Romanticism. ;D
How marvelous...and with Andrew Davis, no less.
Can't wait!
David
Whoopdedoo indeed!
QuoteSymphony No.2 is a gorgeous piece (previously available on a deleted volume of ClassicO's British Symphonic Collection). To have it coupled with No.1 is great and this release should be a wonderful advertisement for Bowen's individual brand of lush Romanticism.
Readers of this forum may like to know that this Classico disk, which, apart from Bowen's 2nd symphony, contains the Symphonic Rhapsody "Spring" by Fredric Austin and the Symphonic Movement "Genesis" by Edgar Bainton (extracted by the composer from his large scale 1st symphony "Before Sunrise" - which contains parts for a contralto soloist and chorus) can be obtained for £10.99 here:
http://hmv.com/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?ctx=280;1;-1;-1;-1&sku=998512 (http://hmv.com/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?ctx=280;1;-1;-1;-1&sku=998512)
A propos of Edgar Bainton it is a sad comment on the carelessness of publishers (in this case Stainer & Bell, and John Curwen) that, of the 7 large scale works for chorus and/or soloists(s) and orchestra known to have been written by Bainton and to have received professional performances during his life time - excluding Symphony No. 1, the performance materials of which happily are available - the MS Full Score and parts of 3 of them, originally held on hire by the publisher, are now known to be lost (so only vocal scores remain) and the orchestral parts of a further 3, originally held on hire by the publisher, are also known to be lost, though, fortunately, the MS Full Scores of these are extant and now reside in public collections or libraries. How depressing is that?!
According to the usually-reliable musicweb, several volumes of ClassicO's British Symphonic Series are nla, including the Bowen disc - http://www.musicweb-international.com/Themed_releases/ClassicO/British.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/Themed_releases/ClassicO/British.htm).
I think that, very unfortunately, the series has been wound up now and you may have difficulty in obtaining those discs that are running into low stock. :(
I think that's right - the series has been wound up. But it looks as though HMV still have stock at reasonable, rather than "Amazon silly" prices. Well, if anyone wants a copy, it's worth trying the link I gave. Fortunately for me, I'm lucky enough to own that disk, so I won't be competing. But I shall also buy the Chandos CD, of course.
Bowen Symphonies 1 & 2 now available to pre-order for £8.99 (post-free) from HMV -
http://hmv.com/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?ctx=280;0;-1;-1;-1&sku=47729 (http://hmv.com/hmvweb/displayProductDetails.do?ctx=280;0;-1;-1;-1&sku=47729)
Is this the one where the ship sinks at the end? ::) ;D
It does? Aww, you've spoiled it for me now! :'(
As it's on nintendo, you can probably change the ending anyway.
(http://www.tomloverro.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/shipwreck.jpg)
;D
If you can't wait to find out whether it sinks or not, you can download now -
http://www.theclassicalshop.net/Details.aspx?CatalogueNumber=CHAN%2010670 (http://www.theclassicalshop.net/Details.aspx?CatalogueNumber=CHAN%2010670)
BTW, Chandos claims that This recording presents his only two surviving symphonies, but other sites list Symphony No.3, Op.137 as available from the publisher de wolfe Ltd. There is, however, no reference to Bowen on their website - is any further clarification available? ???
This posting reminded me that I have a broadcast recording of the Bowen 3rd symphony with Vilem Tausky conducting the BBC Northern SO. I'm uploading it now and will send it today to Albion for posting. It's quite a lovely piece.
Brilliant - thanks Dave! If it comes through, I'll try to get it into BMB before I go away on holiday later this afternoon. :)
Enjoy your holiday!
For what it's worth, about a month from now I'll be taking my own holiday in England for a couple of weeks. If anyone in the London area would like to meet a crazy (but harmless) American, please let me know.
So there is a third symphony. Like Albion, I was sure I've seen it listed somewhere. And if there's a broadcast of it, Chandos surely must be wrong in their statement.
Morten
Not necessarily - the Vilem Tausky broadcast now in Folder 5 is very early (probably 1950s, there was also one conducted by Maurice Miles around 1951). That's half-a-century in which to lose a score! :o
That's true, my point was that Bowen actually composed a third one. Some sources mention it, some don't. But as you say, the score could be anywhere. It's certainly not in my house, that's all I know.
Morten
Must say I personally couldn't get excited about the Second Symphony. It had a lovely slow movement but the rest of the work seemed to go absolutely nowhere. Just allot of aimless meandering & 'imposing' climaxes. I also remember the first movement had a theme that sounded strangely like the old tv advert for 'Fry's Turkish delight'. Not that there's anything especialy wrong with that.
I eventually sold the cd on Amazon. In fact,all my Bowen cd's seem to stay resolutely in the box.
Nevertheless,this is only my opinion & York Bowen obviously was a very talented pianist and composer & he certainly deserves more attention than allot of the pretentious drivel that's promoted by the so called critics. And maybe,maybe Chandos might be just the record label to convert me. There certainly was allot of very lush,beautifuly orchestrated music there which will surely benefit from the famous 'Chandos sound'.
Hope you all enjoy it & if it gets allot of praise here I might be tempted. (Only a few more loyalty points and I'll get my free Chandos cd!)
I have to say I'm suprised about the comments here about the 'third symphony'. I seem to remember reading a comment somewhere comparing the third symphony with Rachmaninov,no less?!!!
Bowen is often compared to Rachmaninov. Pretty silly really...
They both played the piano.. :)
Morten
According to the York Bowen Society website: http://www.yorkbowen.co.uk/works.htm (http://www.yorkbowen.co.uk/works.htm)
the 3rd Symphony is available from:
De Wolfe Ltd.
Shropshire House,
11-20 Capper St.
London WC1E 6JA
United Kingdom
info@dewolfemusic.co.uk
Tel: 020 7631 3600
Fax:020 7631 3700
To be fair,the comment was made by an admirer who was comparing quality of inspiration as opposed to superficial similarities. He just sounds like York Bowen to me!
Quote from: Albion on Saturday 16 April 2011, 12:09
If you can't wait to find out whether it sinks or not, you can download now -
http://www.theclassicalshop.net/Details.aspx?CatalogueNumber=CHAN%2010670 (http://www.theclassicalshop.net/Details.aspx?CatalogueNumber=CHAN%2010670)
BTW, Chandos claims that This recording presents his only two surviving symphonies, but other sites list Symphony No.3, Op.137 as available from the publisher de wolfe Ltd. There is, however, no reference to Bowen on their website - is any further clarification available? ???
In his booklet note for the Danny Driver Hyperion recording of Bowen's 3rd & 4th Piano Concertos Glen Ballard writes: "A number of instrumental works appeared in the 1940s ... followed by his Horn Concerto and Symphony No 3 (the fourth is lost)" which invites the inference that the 3rd isn't lost, otherwise Mr Ballard would presumably have said so. Is anyone else here aware of this
Fourth Symphony?
the two Bowen works I've heard so far (I will go download the material here soon) are the 3rd piano concerto and the violin concerto, and they struck me the two or three times I heard them as very impressive.
Despite my negative comments above I must admit there WAS 'something' about the Bowen second symphony and the temptation to buy it & hear it in sumptuous Chandos sound may be such a temptation that if I try & resist I will eventually be dragged off on a stretcher foaming at the mouth.
I just listened to the samples via the above 'link'. This is sumptuous. I must say I rather like the sound of the first symphony. It all bodes well for a Chandos Holbrooke.
Not sure if anyone else has said this, but the symphonies are on BBC Radio 3 next week, along with various other works by him.
I shall be listening!
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Saturday 16 April 2011, 21:33
According to the York Bowen Society website ... the 3rd Symphony is available from:
De Wolfe Ltd.
Shropshire House,
11-20 Capper St.
London WC1E 6JA
United Kingdom
info@dewolfemusic.co.uk
I'd already looked at the De Wolfe website and they seem most unlikely custodians of York Bowen's published and manuscript music, largely dealing as they do in 'mood-music' CDs. ???
Nevertheless, I've emailed them to ascertain whether or not they do in fact hold scores and parts for the long list of items (especially Symphony No.3) detailed on the York Bowen Society webpage.
QuoteNevertheless, I've emailed them to ascertain whether or not they do in fact hold scores and parts for the long list of items (especially Symphony No.3) detailed on the York Bowen Society webpage.
I spoke to someone at De Wolfe earlier this week. He didn't seem at all fazed by my enquiry about Bowen's music and promised to call back next week when he had had an opportunity to locate the relevant scores. However, I'm not holding my breath. Call me cynical, but if the response I get is that the scores can't be found, I shall not be surprised!
I would have thought it highly unlikely that they did have it and even less likely it would be available.
I have ordered copies of some Bowen manuscripts in the past from the RAM and had to get permission from the Bowen family via their Solicitors.
Thal
Well, let's wait and see. After all, one is entitled to ask why, if these scores are not held (or controlled) by De Wolfe, are they listed as such on the York Bowen Society's website.
One entry under De Wolfe given on the York Bowen site is as follows -
Flute Concerto (lost)
- surely the implication of this is that the listing might well include other works which are no longer extant. In which case, as this is allegedly a list of works available from certain publishers, why include them at all? ???
I must say that I'm also rather dubious about the De Wolfe listing of -
Symphonic Suite No 1
Symphonic Suite No 2
Symphonic Suite No 4
- according to Monica Watson's York Bowen: A Centenary Tribute (Thames, 1984) there is the Suite, Op.57 and a Symphonic Suite (1942), but nothing else originally written for orchestra.
In fact the catalogue given in Watson and the listing given on the Bowen Society site simply do not correspond. ::)
For reference, Watson lists the following -
Orchestra
Symphony No. 1 in G major, Op.4 (1902)
The Lament of Tasso (Symphonic poem), Op.5 (1902)
Concert overture in G minor, Op.15 (1903)
Symphonic fantasia (Tone poem) in F major, Op.16
Symphony No. 2 in E Minor, Op.31 (1909)
At the Play, Op.50
Suite, Op.57 -
1. Festive prelude
2. Midsummer Night (Nocturne)
3. Dance-Phantasy
Eventide (Tone poem), Op.69
Festal overture in D major, Op.89 (1929)
Fantasy overture on "Tom Bowling", Op.115
Symphony No. 3, Op.137
3 Pieces for String orchestra with harp ad lib., Op.140
Pierrette: A graceful dance
2 Characteristic dances
On a spring morning puck
Symphony No. 4 in G major
Symphonic suite (1942)
Miniature suite for school orchestra (ca. 1960)
Holiday suite
Concertante music
Piano Concerto No. 1 in Eb Major, Op.11 (1903)
Piano Concerto No. 2 in D Minor "Concertstück", Op.17 (1905)
Piano Concerto No. 3 in G Minor "Fantasia", Op.23 (1907)
Viola Concerto in C Minor, Op.25 (1906)
Violin Concerto in E Minor, Op.33 (1913)
Rhapsody for Violoncello and Orchestra, Op.74
Piano Concerto No. 4 in A Minor, Op.88 (1929)
Concerto for Horn and String Orchestra, Op.150
Sinfonietta concertante for Brass and Orchestra
Jig for 2 Pianos and Orchestra
Regarding the 4th Symphony, rather than being 'lost' it appears that it was never completed to any great extent: in the RAM library there is an 8-page short score (MS 1380) with the following note -
Nov 8th 1961 2 weeks before death 8 pages short score 4th symphony
Although not nearly so problematic as the Holbrooke catalogue, it seems as though there is clearly a large degree of confusion regarding York Bowen! :o
I must agree that the entry "Flute Concerto (lost)" gave me pause - but all this speculation is simply that until we hear back from De Wolfe.
As suspected, I've just had a reply from Frank Barretta, Senior Music Consultant at De Wolfe to say that
Although we do publish a number of works by York Bowen, unfortunately we do not have either the full orchestral score or any orchestral parts for Symphony No.3, Op.137.
As the score is not held in the Royal Academy library (the main depository of Bowen manuscripts) either, it begins to look as though it is indeed a casualty of neglect or destruction. :(
Whatever the all-too-evident problems surrounding the survival of Bowen's 3rd Symphony, the new Chandos recording of No.2 (broadcast this afternoon on Radio 3) is a real triumph for all concerned (comprehensively eclipsing the Classico account).
Sir Andrew Davis gives an exemplary interpretation of this richly-romantic score and the playing of the BBC Philharmonic is superb: this should win Bowen many new admirers. ;D
QuoteAs suspected, I've just had a reply from Frank Barretta, Senior Music Consultant at De Wolfe to say that
Although we do publish a number of works by York Bowen, unfortunately we do not have either the full orchestral score or any orchestral parts for Symphony No.3, Op.137.
As the score is not held in the Royal Academy library (the main depository of Bowen manuscripts) either, it begins to look as though it is indeed a casualty of neglect or destruction.
Well, I can't say I'm altogether surprised. It's an old story. However, we do have that recording, so the work is not lost altogether and could be reconstructed. I shall get in touch with de Wolfe and ask them what York Bowen scores they do possess. At least we'll know then and if some of us can ask to see them for study purposes we can get photocopies made for posterity.
Agree with Albion - based on one distinctly underwhelmed hearing of the old Bostock/RNCM recording of Symphony 2 I genuinely wondered why Chandos was (were?) even bothering; in the event the new performance is something of a revelation; ok, not a massively individual voice, but plenty of real living music (especially in the splendidly muscular first movement), and eminently worthwhile. Just goes to show how critical "first"recordings are. (& I shouldn't even really make that claim about lacking an individual voice until I'm much more familiar with the idiom; how many times have critics made the same complaint about unfamiliar composers (George Lloyd, for example) who then turn out to posses a strikingly individual sound-world?)
I think that Bowen has an individual voice, albeit a subtle one - certainly harmonically. Listening to the three symphonies, the four piano concertos, the violin concerto, the viola concerto, Eventide, the Festal Overture, the Sinfonietta Concertante and the Rhapsody for Cello certain progressions and orchestral traits become apparent.
If asked to recommend a few works to the curious, I would probably plump for Symphony No.2, Piano Concerto No.3 and Eventide - all gorgeous stuff! :)
In answer to an email enquiry, I've just had the following reply from Glen Ballard of the York Bowen Society -
I understand that the 3rd symphony is now lost. However, the Sinfonia Concertante was recorded not long ago by the BBCSO (Dutton) so De Wolfe should have the parts.
This is great news as far as the Sinfonietta Concertante is concerned, but most unfortunate as regards Symphony No.3 - nevertheless, we now have the crucial recording in the BMB archive.
I've alerted Ms Ballard and Dutton to the survival of this broadcast performance and the fact that it may be possible to reconstruct the work in something close to it's original form.
I hate to add a note of pessimism here, but I had a similar e-mail from Glen Ballard stating: "...But De Wolfe should have the Sinfonia Concertante since this was recorded not that long ago by the BBCSO conducted by Vernon Handly (Dutton)!" Tod Handley has not been with us for some time. Those two Bowen disks he did for Dutton were actually with the BBC Concert Orchestra and date from 2006-7. Neither contained the Sinfonietta Concertante. I don't think he has come back from the grave to take up the baton again for British unsung composers, much as we might wish it.
I have queried Mr Ballard's information, but had no reply as yet.
Gareth, I sincerely hope that this is not another hope dashed! Glen (Ms not Mr) Ballard has been very helpful with regard to enquiries but is perhaps not infallible (rolls eyes ::) as yet another major Bowen score potentially disappears down the khazi of neglect >:().
looking through Cadensa one of the few Bowen orchestral works I see that doesn't seem to come from CD (and maybe it does too?) is a broadcast of his horn concerto. Ifor James (1931-2004) (horn)/Maurice Miles/City of Belfast Orch. (That is, not the same recording as on Lyrita. I don't know the piece, anycase.)
Lest we think these may be two undiscovered masterpieces, instead of two enjoyable symphonic footnotes...
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/apr/28/york-bowen-symphonies-1-and-2-review (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/apr/28/york-bowen-symphonies-1-and-2-review)
Clements is not, in my opinion (was just rereading some of his reviews from a few years back), one of the reviewers who goes into listening-to and reviewing-of lesser-known music with his ears closed, though one may disagree with him in particular cases. Again, my opinion...
Clements' paragraph doesn't really come across as a negative review, just one that is more or less completely devoid of content -
Symphony No.1 - It's a fluent but fundamentally unremarkable three-movement work, in a style that owes more to Mendelssohn and Schumann rather than to any later 19th-century British models.
Well yes, it's very much the highly accomplished student work of a precocious eighteen year old. ::)
Symphony No.2 - its faded romanticism still lacks any trace of individuality.
Well no, Bowen was a romantic composer writing in a romantic idiom in 1909. Whether or not the symphony is 'faded' (whatever the use of this vague adjective implies) depends on whether or not you like your symphonies melodious and sumptuous in the late romantic manner.
Bowen was one of the very few British composers whose mature style was audibly influenced by the Russian school (from Borodin onwards) - certain harmonic quirks and orchestral colourings mark this second symphony out as clearly Bowen's work, with familial similarities to his other scores, especially the Symphonic Fantasia, Op.16 (1905). I wonder just how much of Bowen's work has found its way onto Andrew Clements' listening schedule - my guess would be not a lot.
It may not be The Rite of Spring or Pierrot Lunaire but when I recognise fingerprints, that smacks of individuality to me. ;)
I posted the link in order to keep our enthusiasm for this music grounded. I hope I'm wrong (my copy of the new CD is somewhere in the postal system), but I suspect that this isn't particularly significant music. Enjoyable, yes; important, no. Good to have it on CD? Definitely. Undiscovered masterpieces? No.
We need, I think, to be discriminating here. Enthusiasm for music of perhaps marginal significance is fine on a personal level (after all, we are free to like whatever we want), but on a wider public level it may damage the promotion of unsung music which all desire to see take place.
Encouraged to see you're a Guardian man, Alan!!
I suffer with you the indignity of having my new CDs locked up in some forlorn and desolate mail centre somewhere until the current tomfoolery ceases and the nation returns to normal. But yes, when Bowen arrives (and I doubt it will have priority in being inserted into the CD player for there are some - for me at least - greater treats in store this month) I fully expect to enjoy it thoroughly, will be glad to have my knowledge of Bowen's music enhanced... but I do not suppose I will be utterly stopped in my tracks (as I was, incidentally, by Dale's piano sonata). But then, this is all my business and need not concern others.
However your more general point sets the brain whirling. I rather suspect I disagree. "Enthusiasm for music of...marginal significance...may damage the promotion of [other more deserving] unsung music". 'Damage'? Really? How could that be? I don't really see it. Maybe I'm being too simple minded, but I would have thought that the more 'non-central' music is accessible by way of recordings, performances in public concerts, broadcasts, and even snippets on ClassicFM etc the better off we are. Compare the situation in literature. Over the last 20 years or so we've seen a whole range of small publishers bringing out all sorts of stuff that has hardly seen the light of day. Pop into the local public library and you'll soon come across reading groups of perfectly 'ordinary' people eagerly discussing all sorts of obscure 19th century novels or whatever, the stuff that one never knew of when we wore school caps and did Eng Lit. And these people, with an enriched understanding of past literature, then have a fuller and more safely grounded view of the George Eliots, the Trollopes, the Hardys and can celebrate them all the more. (I also stick head up above the parapet and claim that this deeper and wider acquaintance with literature also enables informed readers to avoid being dazzled by the merely novel and 'stylish', and to grasp why the efforts of a Martin Amis are squalid and wretchedly awful things - but that's another story!)
Is it not the same in music? Some exposure to Bowen (or Raff or Rufinatscha or whoever) might then lead Mr Average Person to clamour for more performances and recordings of lesser known composers, a limiting of a staple diet of Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, Tchaikovsky etc in our concert halls and record catalogues (and thus paradoxically an increase in our estimation of these composers), and maybe an increased aversion to merely silly music and disorganised sheer mindless noise?
All I'm trying to say is that there has to be discernment as to what is good and worthy of recording (which, I imagine, the Bowen symphonies are) and what is actually rather more than that. I sensed the same sort of over-estimate of the early Coleridge-Taylor Symphony on this forum: glad though one was to hear it, it's not a great piece by any stretch of the imagination.
Here I would simply draw two contrasts. Firstly, there is music of far superior quality written elsewhere by other gifted young composers of roughly the same period. A good example would be Georg Schumann's 1st Symphony written at the age of 21 - Coleridge-Taylor's piece, written at the same age, just cannot compare in any way at all. Secondly, there are genuinely individual unsung composers (which Bowen later became, although, I'm unsure from all the CDs I have of him whether he ever quite hits the heights) who, but for an accident of history, would have been recognised as such and might have influenced musical history more than they did - if they did at all. I am convinced, for example, that Rufinatscha comes into this category. I defy anyone to find anything in music written before 1846 which resembles his 5th Symphony.
So all I'm saying is that an over-estimate of particular music may make us look a bit silly - especially when it comes to trying to persuade others, whether they be critics, record producers, or whoever, that there is great music out there, waiting to be discovered and disseminated...
PS. I'm not a Guardian man, actually - I take The Independent ;)
I suspect this latest line of discussion may require a topic page of its own, but . . .
Have you never waited ten or twenty or thirty years to hear a performance of some hitherto unheard masterpiece by a hitherto little-known composer, and foamed and furied at the stupidity of concert planners and record companies who are happy to offer the 600th performance of the Beethoven Fifth but don't have the guts to present the world premiere of Sorabji's 32-hour-long Symphony for six pianos, twelve large choruses and nine orchestras playing simultaneously around the world, and then the long-awaited performance date arrives and you clear your schedule and you unplug your telephone and you find a comfy seat and you listen to Sorabji's 32-hour-long Symphony and you come out of it at the other end feeling that it was . . . okay?
Or have you never bought a recording of an unsung symphony and been completely enraptured by it and realize that you've just heard an undiscovered masterpiece and you listen to it ten times over in the next few days and you bore all your friends with its wonders and insist that they all buy a copy of the disk to encourage the record company, and then life goes on, and a couple of months later you listen to the recording again and you realize that the undiscovered masterpiece is really just . . . okay?
I find that this sort of thing happens to the lover of unsung music all the time. When I was a child accompanying my mother on her daily shopping rounds, I would look down the side streets we passed by (she always took the main road) and wonder what was down them. I think I was convinced that down at least one of those side streets there would be a circus. There never was, although there was usually a park or a lovely old house to admire. I realize that we unsung fans are all the same in that respect. We're all hoping to find a circus at the end of the side street. I've found precious few undisovered masterpieces in the last 35 years, but I have discovered a lot of interesting, nourishing music along the way. And I live in hope.
(and then I return to Beethoven sym 9 and always remember that just because others now perform it again and again- emphasis on now, of course - doesn't prevent me from enjoying it as much as it deserves.) but yes, one does all this in hope and occasionally that hope is rewarded (and the time I find, anyhow, doesn't feel all that much wasted even if not- usually. To the music-makers :) )
Hmm... In reply to some of the points raised in the posts above, firstly I do not think that anybody (including myself) has claimed (or even implied) that York Bowen's symphonies are 'masterpieces'. But then neither would I place Raff or Rufinatscha's symphonies in the same league as Brahms, Dvorak or Tchaikovsky. If the criterion for acceptance is 'significance' then very few unsung composers had any historical significance whatsoever - their very obscurity and neglect negated any chance they had of exercising any influence on musical evolution. Genius as distinct from talent is extraordinarily rare in music as it is in all the arts.
No member of this forum should ever be afraid of advocating his or her personal enthusiasms, even at the risk of ridicule. There is absolutely no harm whatsoever in promulgating music of second- or third-tier quality and letting those who enjoy it do so in the privacy of their own listening experience. Enthusiasm backed by knowledge has clearly always been one of the best aspects about this forum and I'm slightly incredulous at the implication above that too much unsung repertoire is being recorded indiscriminately - if one composer's student symphony cannot compare with another's, so what? I'd like the opportunity to hear them both and make my own mind up, thanks very much! I subscribe to the lessez-faire school of musical appreciation and would not presume to deny anyone their musical enjoyment.
I rather like the circus-at-the-end-of-the-side-road analogy: there is an inherent attraction for all of us in exploring the byways of the repertoire. Part of this is an acceptance that generally byways are byways for a reason - they are not the main artery routes of music, but they are often much more scenic and all the more attractive for having less traffic on them.
Interesting. Because this is where we may part company. No harm in that, of course. But I do believe that there is a difference between sharing one's personal musical enthusiasms and claiming objective significance for certain pieces of music.
My own musical tastes are, I think, pretty catholic and I would never deny anyone the right to express or advocate their own musical preferences - after all, that's partly what this forum is for. But I do believe in trying to come to judgments as to musical quality. In other words, it's OK to be negative - sometimes - because not everything is equally good. Far from denying someone else their musical enjoyment, careful criticism, properly grounded and thought-through, actually enhances someone's ability to listen with discernment. I actually want to move beyond what I know and like and beyond my own current opinions.
My experience with a composer like Raff has persuaded me that a good deal of persistence is necessary to achieve this. In his case I have come to the conclusion that the picture is pretty mixed. He was a composer touched by genius, not an out and out genius such as Brahms. However, look hard enough and you will find music as great as anything written in the 19th century. After listening to a good deal of Bowen, I couldn't say the same thing about him and the 20th century. Of course, as you say, one needs the opportunity to hear his music and no-one could be more grateful than me to be able to buy recordings of his music. But in the end, I want to come to some sort of conclusion about the quality of the music. And I am thoroughly grateful to all the members of this forum for helping me to do so...
BTW Apologies if I have stepped on anyone's toes...
Alan, no digits have been impaired or otherwise maimed in the ongoing debate. In any of my posts (and there are quite a few of these now) I don't think I've ever claimed 'objective significance' (as opposed to subjective) for any composer: Bowen is probably a late-romantic footnote, but none the worse for being that. Personally, I think his second symphony is a glorious riot of orchestral and melodic bravura, but I'm happy for anybody not to purchase the Chandos disc (and thereby miss out on the opportunity to form their own opinion). ;)
Don't worry - I'm a sucker for this kind of stuff myself. But another me looks on and shakes his head (probably at the cost!). Ah well... ;)
Well, the first Symphony turns out to be a very happy creation indeed - although what it's got specifically to do with Mendelssohn or Schumann, I've no idea. I suspect anyone listening to this with a knowledge of the late 19th century repertoire will recognise it for what it is - a fluent, confident, beautifully written yet otherwise unremarkable example of a symphony written in the broad German tradition as mediated by such as Sullivan, Stanford, Parry, etc. Its three movements take around half an hour to play, so actually it has quite an expansive, late-Romantic feel to it, unlike the more compact athleticism of symphonies by Mendelssohn, etc. Thus it belongs with the engaging student symphonies of composers like Georg Schumann, Enescu, and Dohnanyi. Lovely stuff! Another triumph for Chandos...
Now onto Symphony No.2. Ah yes, that Fry's Turkish Delight opening...we're in more exotic territory here. More anon!
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 29 April 2011, 15:12
All I'm trying to say is that there has to be discernment as to what is good and worthy of recording (which, I imagine, the Bowen symphonies are) and what is actually rather more than that. I sensed the same sort of over-estimate of the early Coleridge-Taylor Symphony on this forum: glad though one was to hear it, it's not a great piece by any stretch of the imagination.
Hello Alan,
I do agree that there is a danger in labelling too many works as masterpieces - it might become a sort of reversed Cry Wolf... However, those who commented the Coleridge Taylor symphony can more or less be divided into two categories; those who found the work charming, though immature, and those who simply didn't think it was worth much at all. I can't see that anyone claimed it was a masterpiece.
Personally, I do not jump into new masterpieces that often anymore, but I am also pleased when I find a work that can bring me true pleasure. Of course, I would like to find more "new" composers of the same importance as, for instance, Berwald or Suk, but one often has to settle for the pleasures of a Coleridge Taylor or Kopylov symphony... ;) Of course, many members will not find those works charming at all - it's a matter of taste. On the other hand, there are most likely members who do not think that Berwald and Suk are that important either...
I liked what Dafrieze had to say, it seems sometimes the anticipation is greater than the long-awaited music, but I like hearing something for the first time anyway, maybe it's like sex, the first time is pretty much the most exciting, and one strives forever to match the thrill, yet even if you never quite match it, it sure is fun to keep trying! And I don't care which composer is marginal or central or supercalifragilisticexpialidocious, I want to listen for myself, and if I like it, I may tell you or not, and if I don't like it I also may or may not tell you. And the world will go on with or without my opinion, and I will go on wanting to hear something new for the first time, then deciding if I want to hear it again and again or not.
Well said, Jim. And back more on the topic, the Bowens are available today, may 3, on Amazon.com as a $7.99 download. As are the Roentgen Violin Concertos. I'm still looking for any source besides Presto that has the DuBois VC......
Jerry
Quote from: jimmattt on Tuesday 03 May 2011, 16:49
the anticipation is greater than the long-awaited music, but I like hearing something for the first time anyway, maybe it's like sex, the first time is pretty much the most exciting, and one strives forever to match the thrill, yet even if you never quite match it, it sure is fun to keep trying! And I don't care which composer is marginal or central or supercalifragilisticexpialidocious, I want to listen for myself, and if I like it, I may tell you or not, and if I don't like it I also may or may not tell you. And the world will go on with or without my opinion, and I will go on wanting to hear something new for the first time, then deciding if I want to hear it again and again or not.
Absolutely spot on, Jim - although I really do hope that you will continue to tell us your opinions for many years to come! I also subscribe to the cult of novelty - some are hits, some are misses, but Bowen's second symphony in particular is just the sort of extravagantly kaleidoscopic score that I adore. The trail to the recovery of the third may have temporarily gone cold but I don't normally give up without a struggle! ;)
And, I love both Bowens, Sym no. 3, and all his piano concertos, and anything else, too.
Good man! Glen Ballard of the York Bowen Society has clearly been fighting a real battle with publishers, press-men etc. to get Bowen back onto the map and it would be a real boost if as many members as possible show their support by purchasing the new Symphony disc as well as the other great selections available from Chandos, Hyperion and Dutton -
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Golly, Jim, what kind of experiences have you enjoyed? True, there is considerable anticipation of that initiation into the event that is the constant wonder of schoolboys. But the first time "the most exciting"? Not in my experience. One dark and misty night I got myself willingly dragged into a telephone box (fortunately a rural one) by the Head Girl of the school. I recall she went by the name of Joyce. She used her school scarf to remove the light bulb and promptly got to work. Afterwards I strolled down the lane in slight disbelief that a significant and much anticipated event had finally taken place, but to my disappointment I felt exactly the same afterwards. Bit of a mug's game, I thought, and attendance at my first orchestral concert (the CBSO under Hugo Rignold in an all Beethoven programme) the following week provided a thrill of a far greater magnitude. Remember those old fashioned telephone boxes? The real excitement came when my nether regions impressed themselves upon Button B and a stream of coins shot out across the floor. Apologies to the prim amongst us - but it was many years ago now and the event has never before been recorded.
I think I have a few recordings by Rignold with that orchestra- a Wellesz symphony or two. Maybe other things. Makes me think well of him...
Quote from: Alan Howe on Tuesday 03 May 2011, 15:11
Now onto Symphony No.2. Ah yes, that Fry's Turkish Delight opening...we're in more exotic territory here. More anon!
Well, was it full of eastern promise? ;)
Quote from: Albion on Wednesday 04 May 2011, 17:07
Quote from: Alan Howe on Tuesday 03 May 2011, 15:11
Now onto Symphony No.2. Ah yes, that Fry's Turkish Delight opening...we're in more exotic territory here. More anon!
Well, was it full of eastern promise? ;)
Sorry, anon hasn't happened yet...
Well, I certainly wouldn't call the 2nd Symphony faded in any way. Actually, it's rather exhilarating - and what a command of the orchestra the still-young Bowen had! A simply marvellous late-Romantic romp. And hats off to the BBCPO! I know I'm biased, having watched and heard them record Rufinatscha, but what a fabulous job they do with unfamiliar music. And what a fab job the recording team in Manchester does too. I don't think Bowen 2 is a masterpiece, but we'd be much the poorer without it - Fry's Turkish Delight and all. Oh yes, and quite a bit of Elgar 1 too, but who cares?
Thanks Alan, a very positive response indeed. For further exploration, I would strongly recommend the four volumes of piano music superbly played by Joop Celis on Chandos.
I'm currently in contact with James de Wolfe and will hopefully have more information soon as to which later-Bowen scores might potentially be available for recording in the future. I am still reasonably optimistic that Symphony No.3 is not, in fact, altogether unsalvageable. :)
I had a phone call from a Mr Alan Howe, this morning, from De Wolfe Music. He is going to see exactly what they do have by York Bowen - it seems that the music is spread over multiple sites (a sure way of losing track of it, if ever there was one!). They have, sadly, only the string parts of the Sinfonietta Concertante. They do have score and parts of the Overture on "Tom Bowling". He reiterated that they don't have Symphony No. 3 BUT said they had Symphony No. 4. My understanding is that YB completed only a few sketches for what was to have been his 4th Symphony, so I suggested to Mr Howe that this might, in fact, be the Symphony No. 3 in disguise - just wrongly labelled in their system. He thought that might well be the case and promised to get back to me. He will also, as I wrote above, see what their complete holdings are and, to help him, I have sent him the list from the YB Society website.
I recall when researching Holbrooke, I came across the only copy (as far as I am aware) of his Symphony No. 7 for strings in the John Hopkins Library in Baltimore; this was a copyist's score incorrectly titled on the front page "Symphony No. 6, for Strings". In fact, Holbrooke's 6th symphony, which is extant, is scored for Military Band.
So "Courage, mes braves!" Hope for the 3rd symphony is not yet dead.
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Tuesday 10 May 2011, 11:35
I had a phone call from a Mr Alan Howe, this morning, from De Wolfe Music.
Must be my doppelganger...
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Tuesday 10 May 2011, 11:35
I had a phone call from a Mr Alan Howe, this morning, from De Wolfe Music. [...] They have, sadly, only the string parts of the Sinfonietta Concertante. They do have score and parts of the Overture on "Tom Bowling". He reiterated that they don't have Symphony No. 3 BUT said they had Symphony No. 4.
Gareth, thanks for this update on the Bowen situation - it clearly is a case of the more people that badger De Wolfe the better! Last Thursday, I asked James de Wolfe for confirmation of the whereabouts of
Somerset Suite (Market Day in Taunton; The Old Mansion; Wind Whistle Hill) (c.1940)
Symphonic Suite, including re-written 4th movement (1942)
Fantasy Overture on Tom Bowling, Op.115 (c.1945)
Symphony No.3, Op.137 (1951)
Three Pieces for String Orchestra, with Harp ad lib. (Prelude to a Comedy; Aubade; Toccata), Op 140 (c.1951)
Sinfonietta Concertante for Brass and Orchestra (1957)
Jig for Two Pianos and Orchestraand he promised a reply 'in the near future'. ::) It certainly seems as if they really don't have a clue as to what they've actually got - if they
do have a symphony it is
definitely No.3 (Bowen's short score of the 4th is dated two weeks before his death).
Likewise they probably
do have all the material for the Sinfonietta Concertante, but it's been split up. Perhaps one of us should go down to Capper Street and give them a hand!
;)
Please keep us up-to-date with any developments, and I will do likewise.
I'd be only too pleased to help sort out their archive. Who knows what might be found?!
Quote from: Gareth Vaughan on Tuesday 10 May 2011, 18:13
I'd be only too pleased to help sort out their archive. Who knows what might be found?!
The following is the verbatim list I received from James de Wolfe:
A 3-PIECE SUITE FOR STRINGS & HARP: PRELUDE TO A COMEDY, AUBADE, TOCCATA
AID TO THE CIVIL POWER
ALLEGRETTO IN G
BALLADE for Oboe, Horn & Pipe
BURLESQUE FOR SMALL ORCHESTRA
BURLESQUE for Wind Quintet
CATASTROPHE
CEREMONIAL MARCH
CHATTERBOX
CONCERTO FOR HORN & STRING ORCHESTRA (Timpani ad lib) Opus 150
DEBUTANTE (for Flute, Oboe, Clarinet, Horn & Bassoon)
EVENTIDE
FANTASY OVERTURE
FIVE SKETCHES FOR ONE HAND ONLY
FROLIC FOR WIND ENSEMBLE
GRIEG PIANO CONCERTO - Special arrangement
HOLIDAY SUITE (4 movements)
JIG (for 2 Pianos & Orchestra)
MARCH (re-written 4th movt. SYMPHONIC SUITE)
MERRY MOOD
MINIATURE SUITE FOR WOODWIND
MOTO PERPETUO
MOVEMENTS: I) ALLEGRO NON TROPPO, II) POCO LENTO – SERIOSO, III) FINALE: ALLEGRO MOLTO CON SPIRITO
PHANTASY-QUINTET for Bass-Clarinet & String Quartet Opus 93
PUCK
SEVEN MUSICAL FANFARES
SINFONIETTA CONCERTANTE FOR BRASS & ORCHESTRA in 3 movements
SKETCHES FOR SMALL ORCHESTRA No. 4
SKETCHES No. 4
SOMERSET SUITE: MARKET DAY IN TAUNTON, THE OLD MANSION, WIND WHISTLE HILL
SYMPHONIC SUITE 4 PARTS
SYMPHONY No. 3 MOVEMENTS: I) INTRODUCTION ALLEGRO, II) POCO LENTO,
III) FINALE ALLEGRO MOLTO QUASI PRESTO
TEMPO DI POLKA
THE DANCER
THE LOST CANYON
THE OUTCASTThe 'movements' clearly relate to the Horn Concerto, so their unrelated placing elsewhere in the list really inspires confidence! ;)
Can one order copies direct from these people, or does permission still have to be sought from the Bowen family, as per the holdings of the RAM???
Thal
James de Wolfe has described the condition of their Bowen material as ranging from 'reasonable' to 'very poor', so I'm not sure what the situation is as regards reproduction. At present, negotiations are in hand to visit De Wolfe's central offices and examine the archive. :)
Well done that man.
Sounds like the sooner they are examined and preserved the better.
Thal
What a crew! You guys are indefatigable! 8)
And it's straight in at number 4.
The Specialist Classical Chart - what a marvellous idea, won't hear a word said against it! ;)
The Chandos disc has been judged 'outstanding' in the June edition of International Record Review with an excellent write-up by Piers Burton-Page. Here are some excerpts:
York Bowen's Second Symphony has a blistering intensity about it that leaves you gasping, and certain that this is a composer with a sure grasp of that he wants to say, how he is going to say it and where he is going.
The playing in this wonderfully dramatic music is simply staggering. The recording matches it in quality.
The present release is essential listening: first, because it substantially expands our knowledge of a musician who was clearly neither an anachronism nor merely an Interesting Historical Figure; second, because it is hugely enjoyable on its own terms; and third, because it is so stunningly well played and executed: hence the red-letter nomination.
Bowen is credited with two more symphonies: No.4 I believe to be only an unfinished sketch. A bit of a mystery seems at present to surround No.3, listed in a publisher's catalogue as Op.137, but I understand not able thus far to be located. Our picture of this remarkable musician still needs rounding out. Did his symphonism change after 1909? Did musical fashions have any impact at all? Did the drive fade? It needs to be found, performed and recorded. Urgently.
No arguments from me! ;)
Regarding the later works of Bowen, Ralph Couzens of Chandos posted a reply on their forum yesterday -
The manuscripts of some of the titles you mention are registered with DeWolfe but are in fact lost in a flood some years ago. Others are avialable but I'm afraid not the most important ones everyone is waiting for. We are currently investigating this with DeWolfe and will have some news in by July.
Myself and Gareth Vaughan have an appointment with DeWolfe next week to examine their holdings - I remain (cautiously) optimistic, as water damage may indeed account for James de Wolfe's description of the material as ranging from "reasonable to very poor".
I'm curious..... any updates reg. the elusive Symphony No. 3. If it is indeed lost is there any way we can hear the existing recording?
Re no.3 I think we used to have that recording "here", but it disappeared... bother. Hrm. Not on YouTube, either...
So the score hasn't survived i presume. Any chance it can be recreated using the recording?
There are I seem to recall two surviving performances recorded of no.3, so there might be a slightly better chance of something than with only the one. Such work is very conjectural and difficult (from what a friend who's done similar work's told me), especially when the sound quality is less than pristine...
Yes. It must be very difficult. I have the highest admiration for those who can carry out such reconstructions convincingly.
I have a copy of one of the recordings of Bowen's Third - BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra conducted by Ian Whyte. Once I find it (!), I'll upload it here.
My copy of a recording of a radio broadcast of Bowen's Third Symphony is now available in the Downloads Board here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,6321.msg66772.html#new). Although there is noticeable hiss and plenty of crackles, the sound is tolerable considering the the age and source of the recording (1950s off-air). If anyone has a better recording, or one of the two other broadcast performances (conducted by Vilem Tausky and Sir Charles Groves), perhaps they could upload them too?
Well, I still like Bowen's 2nd Symphony a lot. My latest audition had me thinking of Korngold, actually - and perhaps even late Rachmaninov. Try it out here - it's a fine tribute to Sir Andrew Davis' work in this corner of the repertoire: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=omHowa-xDlg
I need to pull it off the shelf, then give it another try. It's been a while.
I'll hold my hand up and admit that both the Bowen symphonies on the Chandos CD are very much to my taste, they receive splendid performances although I wouldn't really call either a masterpiece.
Re-reading this thread I'm a little confused about the question of the "lost" Symphony No.3. Gareth and former member Albion were doing some fine sleuthing and in this post (https://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php?msg=14201) Albion reports that de Wolfe confirmed that they had the score and then in this later post (https://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php?msg=14973) Albion wrote that he and Gareth were going to examine in person the scores stored by de Wolfe but there's no mention of the result of that visit, if it actually took place. I have a copy of the recording of the 1954 broadcast of the performance of the Third by the BBC Scottish Symphony Orchestra under Ian Whyte but it's a long way from ideal and a modern recording would be a great thing to have.
Can you update us on the fate of the score please, Gareth?
Albion and I did visit De Wolfe's and were given access to what they had. But, alas, they confirmed that the score of the 3rd symphony had been lost, a casuality of flood damage.
Ah well, thanks Gareth.
Could the score be reconstructed from Mark's off-air recording?
I've seen several comments both in this thread and on YouTube that this would be difficult, but possible for a composer of sufficient skill to achieve but that would no doubt also mean that it would be an expensive exercise. I've just been listening to the recording (which is still in our Downloads Board here (https://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,6321.msg66771.html#msg66771), by the way) but it's very muddy and recessed, so a fair amount of imagination would be required too.
A job for someone like Martin Yates, perhaps?
I feel sure it could be done. And Martin Yates would be just the man to do it.
Were the parts destroyed too? Rachmaninoff's 1st Symphony was reassembled from the parts.
Yes, John. All performance material lost. To be brutally honest, they hadn't really looked after his legacy and one got the impression they weren't (or hadn't been) particularly interested.
It may be made marginally easier if someone somewhere taped those other two broadcasts you mentioned in 2016 (which I assume no longer exist as master tapes?)
I have the mp3s I downloaded from UC, of the 3rd Symphony under Tausky. Any help?
I wasn't volunteering to reconstruct the scores from the performances, lacking those skills, but if anyone ever is, the more source material (than just one performance) they have to work with, the better.