This topic (came to my mind after reading the Rott thread) may work on the unsung level, particularly if we have composers who were unsung due to rivalries....
I am always fascinated by the interrelationships between composers. In particular, rivalries or other issues are especially interesting to me. I read a book about Beethoven and there was some discussion about his relationship with Haydn -- possibly the most compelling section from my standpoint.
Are there good stories about rival composers? I'd love to hear about them, or any other stories about the interrelationships with composers.
Didn't Tchaikovsky call Brahms 'that giftless bastard'? Oops, sorry - they're hardly unsung!
Why do music historians always speak of composers who were allowed to be part of Brahms's circle of friends in Vienna? Why not say that Brahms was a member of Rufinatscha's circle of friends? :D
What an enormous influence The Master must have had on fellow composers. He could make them or break them.
Nevertheless, I love every note of the very sung Brahms.
I too love Brahms.
The problem is that everything composed in the German-speaking world (and beyond) in the final four decades of the 19th century is compared with Brahms' music. In the case of some composers, this is downright silly - e.g. Raff and Draeseke. Neither breathes remotely the same air as Brahms.
In the case of others, e.g. Gernsheim, the comparison, whilst more apt, has the effect of totally obscuring their real qualities. Try Gernsheim's two Piano Quintets, for example, and ask yourself whether they are in any way inferior to that of Brahms...
Sorry, this is rather off-topic!
"Didn't Tchaikovsky call Brahms 'that giftless bastard'?"
Alan, you should have completed the quotation, which goes: "Why, compared to him, Raff is a genius!"
Oops - thanks for that, Mark.
If I didn't love Brahms so much I'd almost risk a 'hear, hear!!'
Oh, I love Brahms too. Tchaikovsky was wrong, needless to say. Well, at least on one count ;)
Quite. Raff was a genius. As was Brahms. And Tchaikovsky.
I believe that Brahms regarded Draeseke as his most formidable rival, but it would be great to nail down an actual quotation...
Funny - the most comprehensive biography of Brahms which I've encountered mentions nothing about Draeseke. Nada. The term "rivals" could most accurately apply to Liszt - about whom Brahms (and his friend Joachim) wrote a "manifesto" against the so-called "New German School" which they dubbed as "Music of the Future." The manifesto was aimed, mainly, at Liszt and his propaganda machine which attempted to split with the past and keep the living composer in the forefront. Brahms and Joachim also had their sights on Wagner, but to a lesser degree, when Wagner declared that Bach, Mozart, Haydn and Beethoven's music had been "superseded" by the new music.
Interestingly the two also mentioned Raff, as a "petit-Liszt," particularly for his prize-winning "To My Fatherland." In the 1860s Raff was one of the foremost German symphonists and represented a future that Brahms/Joachim tried to obstruct. Nevertheless, Brahms expressed a fondness for Raff's music.
The manifesto, as it turned out, was a failure. Although the music of the past remained the staple of the concert hall, it also served as the foundation of the future. Notwithstanding the support of such composers as Gade, Bargiel, Clara Schumann and others - the new romanticists, the abstractionists, eventually won out.
For Wagner, the historic meaning of Beethoven was that he paved the way for Wagner. This sort of battle over the hearts and minds of music-makers was a true mid-nineteenth century rivalry which included many composers on both sides of the issue.
But I've never seen Draeseke mentioned specifically - except as a "member" of the New German School. I doubt he would qualify as Brahms' "most formidable" rival since Liszt and Wagner were around at the time, and were the all-stars in the firmament of the future-is-now claque.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 10 July 2009, 00:11
In the case of others, e.g. Gernsheim, the comparison, whilst more apt, has the effect of totally obscuring their real qualities. Try Gernsheim's two Piano Quintets, for example, and ask yourself whether they are in any way inferior to that of Brahms...
Sorry, this is rather off-topic!
Or, for that matter, most of the music of von Herzogenberg. He (and his wife, especially) had a very close relationship with Brahms, of course, and von H's style is echt-Brahmsian.
My understanding from the material I have encountered on Draeseke is that Brahms regarded Draeseke as his foremost symphonic rival, along with Bruckner. In this sense Liszt and Wagner weren't rivals at all, but the advocates of a completely different musical aesthetic in which the symphony had been replaced by the symphonic poem or opera ('music-drama'). By contrast, Draeseke, who was also Brahms' almost exact contemporary, was attempting to grapple with the problem of the symphony (and other classical forms, such as concerto and chamber music) in the light of the advances of the 'music of the future'. In this respect, as with Bruckner, he represented a real alternative to Brahms' more conservative classicism.
The three great Germano-Austrian symphonic statements of the 1880s are Brahms 4 (1884-5), Bruckner 8 (1884-7, rev.1889-90) and Draeseke 3 (1886). Their contrasting solutions to the symphonic problem are utterly fasinating.
Just a footnote: it is very tricky to fill out the wider context in which Brahms' development as a symphonist took place. In particular, very little attention has been paid to the influence of, for example, Albert Dietrich or Johann Rufinatscha, both of whose symphonies pre-date Brahms' 1st and both of whom were also part of his circle. Until this overall context is filled out by future musicology, the picture presented to the public of Brahms is bound to remain inadequate at best and downright skewed at worst. Fortunately, such musicological research is currently being undertaken here in the UK and one awaits the results with keen anticipation...
Certainly, in the field of opera one of the best known composer rivalries has to be between Mozart and Salieri. Ironically, Mozart's son, Franz Xaver Mozart had Salieri as one of his teachers. In the early 19th Century there must certainly have been some rivalry between pianist composers such as Ignaz Moschelles and John Field.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 10 July 2009, 17:36
Just a footnote: it is very tricky to fill out the wider context in which Brahms' development as a symphonist took place. In particular, very little attention has been paid to the influence of, for example, Albert Dietrich or Johann Rufinatscha, both of whose symphonies pre-date Brahms' 1st and both of whom were also part of his circle. Until this overall context is filled out by future musicology, the picture presented to the public of Brahms is bound to remain inadequate at best and downright skewed at worst. Fortunately, such musicological research is currently being undertaken here in the UK and one awaits the results with keen anticipation...
As far as Rufinatscha is concerned, maybe the 5th Symphony can be considered as having influenced Brahms, but as far as the 6th is concerned, unless Brahms had a good look at the manuscript (which may not actually be beyond the realm of possibility), I would say that unfortunately, Rufinatscha's most substantial and grand symphonic utterance had no influence on Brahms whatsoever.
The proposition put forward by the musicologists associated with the Institut für Tiroler Musikforschung basically has two thrusts with regard to Rufinatscha's influence:
1. That he was part of Brahms' circle in Vienna.
2. That, stylistically speaking, he was responsible for the introduction of a particular tone of high solemnity which was taken up in different ways by different composers.
Surely Brahms' main specific influences were his Hamburg teacher Marxen and his idol Schumann together with Beethoven in the general way that he influenced most of Brahms' contemporaries? In the field of orchestral music it is very interesting to speculate whether Julius Otto Grimm's magnificent and large scale D minor Symphony of the late 1850s had an influence. Grimm was a good friend of Brahms and shared his Schumann-influenced aesthetic. Like that of Albert Dietrich (another Schumann acolyte), although Grimm's music recalls Brahms to our modern ears, it is in fact a quite independent and parallel result of Schumann's influence. I guess that Brahms' friend Joachim's orchestral writing might have had some influence on him too.
I'd be very surprised if Rufinatscha influenced Brahms at all. He seems to have been unsung even in his own lifetime.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Friday 10 July 2009, 22:33I'd be very surprised if Rufinatscha influenced Brahms at all. He seems to have been unsung even in his own lifetime.
True. But at least the 5th Symphony got a performance (in 1846, IIRC).
I never knew that Brahms was so "controversial" in terms of being a polemical figure in some respects.
With Mozart and Salieri: Were they on fairly equal footing in terms of composing Opera? If so, was that the only genre they were equal? (I always see Mozart as way past him -- but, to use a somewhat archaic American expression, I always saw Mozart as the "Michael Jordan" (perhaps Wayne Gretzky would be more fitting because he truly did what nobody did before him) of composing.
Another famous rivalry was between what is said to be the greatest living pianist of his days, Franz Liszt, and the second best, Sigismund Thalberg.
It happened in Paris in the 1830s, with a rich musical life and where so many pianist virtuosos lived. It was the Princess Cristina Belgiojoso-Trivulzio who challengd both virtuosos to play at their best for a selected audience of Parisians in the princess's apartment on the 29th of March, 1837. The audience had to find out, who was definitely the greatest pianist in the world. Both Liszt and Thalberg picked up the challenge. It was in those days very popular to write paraphrases on operas. Thalberg chose his own Fantaisie sur des motifs de "Moïse", op. 33 (from Rossini's opera Moses), and Liszt took his own Divertissement sur la cavatine "I tuoi frequenti palpiti", S.419 (from Pacini's opera La Nioble).
The audience seemed overcome by emotion after hearing both virtuosos. It was the princess who is supposed to have said: Liszt is the greatest pianist, Thalberg is the only pianist. Newspapers reported: Never did Thalberg show greater refinement and ease at the piano, and: Never did Liszt play with more verve and tenderness. Thus, two victors.
(source: Steven Mayer in his booklet notes belonging to his CD Liszt vs. Thalberg).
Another opinion is that Anton Rubinstein was the second best, and rivaled at the keyboard only by Liszt. But that was a decade later. When Rubinstein was still studying, he went to Vienna in 1846 to seek Liszt's help and advice. But it is rather strange that Liszt, always very helpfull to others, refused to give Rubinstein lessons and showed nothing but indifference. Did Liszt already notice Rubinstein's virtuosity and really thought he could not teach him anything anymore? Or was Liszt afraid of a potential rival virtuoso?
Mark is quite right to mention Grimm. The recording of his Symphony in D minor, written in the 1850s, would help fill out the picture of the development of the symphony pre-Brahms no end.
For those who love both Brahms and Draeseke, a modern scholarly edition of Draeseke's clarinet sonata, opus 38 (predating Brahms's clarinet works by a decade or so) has recently become available on IMSLP. The date of publication is 1985, so I'm surprised it is freely available and am putting this note here in case it is blocked in the not too distant future.
My understanding is that this will be in the public domain, since it is only a new edition of an out of Copyright work.
I think IMSLP have learned their lesson from the UE affair and are unlikely to let something similar happen again.
Thal
Quote from: John H White on Friday 10 July 2009, 21:57
Certainly, in the field of opera one of the best known composer rivalries has to be between Mozart and Salieri. Ironically, Mozart's son, Franz Xaver Mozart had Salieri as one of his teachers. In the early 19th Century there must certainly have been some rivalry between pianist composers such as Ignaz Moschelles and John Field.
The W.A. Mozart - Salieri rivalry was a myth. Pushkin wanted to write a play and knew about Mozart's rivalry with Leopold Kozeluch, a very minor affair that wasn't particularly heated at all from what I can tell. However, at the time, Salieri was still quite famous, while Kozeluch was not, so the names were switched. We have to remember that for a while, Salieri sat astride the European musical world in probably the most lucrative position that existed. Possibly the most prestigious art-related job in the entire world, for that matter. In 1786, a magazine said: "It is no secret that Herr Leopold Kozeluch competes with Mozart.". Maybe Mozart shouldn't have written music for one of Kozeluch's pupils... but at that time, a rivalry basically meant competing for attention and favour at schmoozing events and parties of nobles. In addition, Kozeluch famously also rubbed Beethoven and F.J. Haydn the wrong way, so I'd guess there was no specific rivalry here at all. One of Mozart's friends also made mention somewhere that he knew not to mention Kozeluch in Mozart's presence.
I wonder if the Russia-based Field ever had much contact with Moscheles. Maybe they never even met. Maybe one or both never heard a note of the other's music? Unlikely, I suppose, but still, in those days it wasn't like you could download it.
Quote from: thalbergmad on Thursday 11 March 2010, 08:38
My understanding is that this will be in the public domain, since it is only a new edition of an out of Copyright work.
I think IMSLP have learned their lesson from the UE affair and are unlikely to let something similar happen again.
Thal
That doesn't mean it doesn't sometimes take them awhile to find and remove etc. In this case the work itself was first published 1888, but I don't know how much editing went into the new edition so far as copyright law might be concerned in different countries (horrible grammar, I know). Better to scan the original edition to be safe, imhonesto...
Not sure if this story exactly matches this thread, but here goes.
Otto Nicolai, having established his position as a respectable opera composer, rejected a libretto, considering it unsuitable for an opera. The young Verdi took it up and it became his first major opera, Nabucco.