Hi all. I have a question that has bugged me for some time.
Years ago, on Art Hoehn's "Music Through The Night" program Mr. Hoehn played a version of Schubert's 8th that I'd not heard before, or since. What made this particular recording unique was the fact that it was not the usual two movements, nor one of the many "completed" versions; but rather the first two movements, the few orchestrated bars of the third... and then what remained of the movement on piano.
It was actually quite moving to hear the work in this form, and to experience Schubert's (apparently) lasts thoughts - in regards to this piece - ebbing away single-notedly on the piano...
Anyway, if anyone happens to know of this recording, and it's availability, I'd be most grateful.
Danny
hrm. will try to find out if I can- do you know anything about the duration in time (start year to end year) of his program? I see he died this past March...
Thanks for your reply. I believe he hosted the programme between 1987 - 2002, after which he retired...
Quote from: kolaboy on Thursday 02 June 2011, 00:35
a version of Schubert's 8th that I'd not heard before, or since. What made this particular recording unique was the fact that it was not the usual two movements, nor one of the many "completed" versions; but rather the first two movements, the few orchestrated bars of the third... and then what remained of the movement on piano.
That sounds almost reminiscent of the BBC programme about Elgar's Third Symphony in 1995(?) in which the only part fully orchestrated by the composer (the first page and a half or so -and which could almost have been the opening gesture of Havergal Brian's Symphony No. 3½) was played as written by an orchestra and then followed extracts played on the piano by Keith Swallow around Anthony Payne's fascinating observations, only the concluding one of which (i.e. that one could only speculate on what might have been rather than expect the work to be put together in a meaningful symphonic manner from the thing of shreds and patches that were Elgar's sketches) mercifully proved to be entirely false!
As to Schubert's "last thoughts" on his B minor symphony, it's perhaps as well to remember that these were by no means his final thoughts as a composer and it has long struck me (as someone who has long struggled, largely unsuccessfully, to get to grips with most of Schubert) that, in his final couple of years or so, he began at last to write much smaller quantities of music to his great advantage, the two piano trios being particularly shining examples worthy of (though of course quite different from) Beethoven; from his final works, I cannot help but suspect that Schubert at 70 might have been one of the 19th century's greatest composers...
Oh, certainly not his last thoughts as a composer. I was referring to his "last thoughts" in relation to the 8th. I guess fragments (and lost works) hold a certain fascination for me. One can speculate endlessly over Schumann's Corsair, and Chopin's lost Veni Creator...
Quote from: ahinton on Thursday 02 June 2011, 07:18
...from his final works, I cannot help but suspect that Schubert at 70 might have been one of the 19th century's greatest composers...
Wasn't Schubert at 31 one of the 19th century's greatest composers? ;)
Obviously he was one of the greatest in his last year, and he was already at twenty five, and even younger.
I have a recording in LP format apparently corresponding to post 1.
But it dates back to 1967.
CBS 54008. Max Goberman conducted a "New Wien Symphonic Orchestra" in Overture Rosamunde (actually "Zauberharfe"), Magnificat in C major (with soloists and chorus) and Unfinished Symphony. The Unfinished, after the two completed movements, consists in sketches of a third: allegedly orchestrated by the composerr for nine bars, continuing on the piano played by one Kurt Rapf (the total timing is 2'.48").
I quote some words about which I don't at all agree (while I am much appreciating Hermann Goetz Symphony).
G.B. Shaw, "Music in London", November, 1893: "Beside it (Goetz' Symphony) Schubert's Symphonies seem mere debauches of exquisitely musical thoughtlessness". In the same page Shaw rated Goetz (as a symphonist) much superior to Mendelssohn, Schumann and Brahms.
Quote from: Lionel Harrsion on Thursday 02 June 2011, 09:51
Quote from: ahinton on Thursday 02 June 2011, 07:18
...from his final works, I cannot help but suspect that Schubert at 70 might have been one of the 19th century's greatest composers...
Wasn't Schubert at 31 one of the 19th century's greatest composers? ;)
Not for me, no - but he was all of a sudden showing strong signs of getting there...
Quote from: ahinton on Thursday 02 June 2011, 14:50
Quote from: Lionel Harrsion on Thursday 02 June 2011, 09:51
Quote from: ahinton on Thursday 02 June 2011, 07:18
...from his final works, I cannot help but suspect that Schubert at 70 might have been one of the 19th century's greatest composers...
Wasn't Schubert at 31 one of the 19th century's greatest composers? ;)
Not for me, no - but he was all of a sudden showing strong signs of getting there...
Really? Gosh, my flabber has never been so gasted. Still, as my wise old mother used to say, "It wouldn't do if we all thought the same!"
Quote from: Lionel Harrsion on Thursday 02 June 2011, 15:05
Quote from: ahinton on Thursday 02 June 2011, 14:50
Quote from: Lionel Harrsion on Thursday 02 June 2011, 09:51
Quote from: ahinton on Thursday 02 June 2011, 07:18
...from his final works, I cannot help but suspect that Schubert at 70 might have been one of the 19th century's greatest composers...
Wasn't Schubert at 31 one of the 19th century's greatest composers? ;)
Not for me, no - but he was all of a sudden showing strong signs of getting there...
Really? Gosh, my flabber has never been so gasted. Still, as my wise old mother used to say, "It wouldn't do if we all thought the same!"
I know - and I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. I am simply temperamentally antipathetic to much of Schubert, with some notable exceptions and I am unable to do much about that. Would you not, however, agree that some of what Schubert wrote in his final years seemed to me to scale considerably greater heights than he had ever attained previously?
Quote from: ahinton on Thursday 02 June 2011, 17:57
Quote from: Lionel Harrsion on Thursday 02 June 2011, 15:05
Quote from: ahinton on Thursday 02 June 2011, 14:50
Quote from: Lionel Harrsion on Thursday 02 June 2011, 09:51
Quote from: ahinton on Thursday 02 June 2011, 07:18
...from his final works, I cannot help but suspect that Schubert at 70 might have been one of the 19th century's greatest composers...
Wasn't Schubert at 31 one of the 19th century's greatest composers? ;)
Not for me, no - but he was all of a sudden showing strong signs of getting there...
Really? Gosh, my flabber has never been so gasted. Still, as my wise old mother used to say, "It wouldn't do if we all thought the same!"
I know - and I wouldn't worry about it if I were you. I am simply temperamentally antipathetic to much of Schubert, with some notable exceptions and I am unable to do much about that. Would you not, however, agree that some of what Schubert wrote in his final years seemed to me to scale considerably greater heights than he had ever attained previously?
Yes I would but it's probably true of all great composers that, to some extent, they scale greater heights as they get older. Nevertheless, it I find it fascinating that serious musicians are sometimes antipathetic to composers who are considered among the greats -- Delius's dislike of Beethoven and Britten's antipathy towards Brahms spring immediately to mind. Puccini is my particular bête noire! Still, we are getting off the topic of this 'particular recording'.
Quote from: alberto on Thursday 02 June 2011, 14:08
I have a recording in LP format apparently corresponding to post 1.
But it dates back to 1967.
CBS 54008. Max Goberman conducted a "New Wien Symphonic Orchestra" in Overture Rosamunde (actually "Zauberharfe"), Magnificat in C major (with soloists and chorus) and Unfinished Symphony. The Unfinished, after the two completed movements, consists in sketches of a third: allegedly orchestrated by the composerr for nine bars, continuing on the piano played by one Kurt Rapf (the total timing is 2'.48").
Alberto, that may very well be it. Mr. Hoehn did indeed source vinyl for his broadcasts up until about 1994. Many thanks the information.
As per the notion that Schubert is not among the immortals of
any century... well, if we're going down
that questionable route perhaps we should also be open to the possibilities that fire is not hot, water is not wet, and that Johann Gottfried Bernhard was the greatest of J.S. Bach's sons...
allegedly orchestrated by the composer for 9 bars? well.. what level of proof are we talking about?
It's always been my understanding that the extant "orchestrated bars" of the third movement were in Schubert's hand. I've not (in 30 years) heard any argument that would suggest that they are not, or that that was in any way a contentious point.
Not only in Schubert's hand, but found with the rest of the MS in Josef Hüttenbrenner's cupboard.
Quote from: Lionel Harrsion on Thursday 02 June 2011, 19:00
it's probably true of all great composers that, to some extent, they scale greater heights as they get older. Nevertheless, it I find it fascinating that serious musicians are sometimes antipathetic to composers who are considered among the greats -- Delius's dislike of Beethoven and Britten's antipathy towards Brahms spring immediately to mind. Puccini is my particular bête noire!
Those examples are perhaps some of the most notable, although Delius had quite a few other pet hates bestides Beethoven and, on the other hand, Britten's evident dislike of Brahms by no means included his D minor piano concerto which he never actually performed but of which he thought very highly; Britten also found much of Elgar distasteful, yet in his last years he conducted a performance of
Gerontius which he'd hardly have done had he not either had a change of heart or made something of an exception of this monumentally great work. As for me, I suppose that one thing that often (though not necessarily always) bothers me is composers who write/wrote very large numbers of works - I'm thinking of such figures as Hovhaness, Milhaud, Villa-Lobos, Bentzon, Krenek et al - in terms of the obvious problem of concentration of substance; this is one reason why I find Schubert largely problematic, but that's a mere personal take - no more, no less.
About reply 14 (I see replies in the meantime).
No proofs from the old 1967 CBS record I mentioned and owe. It, in anonymous and shortish sleeve notes, simply claims for autenthicity.
Arthur Hoehn was Minnesota Public Radio's first classical music DJ, if you will and his "Music Through the Night" was satellite syndicated over NPR to over 130 stations in the US. Perhaps if you contacted Minnesota Public Radio they could help you with your original question.
Jerry
IIRC, what we have of Schubert's orchestration of the scherzo is a fair copy that continues to the end of a music sheet. Given the haphazard disposition of Schubert's Nachlass, there is a distinct possibility that one day further pages will turn up.
Alberto - Visiting Wikipedia's article on Schubert's symphony in B minor (there are too many Schubert unfinisheds, including the E major and D major, for me to want to refer to it that way, but going on) the claim that the 3rd movement is as claimed is sourced (clicking on their reference link) to something by Brian Newbould (Brian Newbould, Schubert and the Symphony: A New Perspective, pp.180-181). The liner notes to the recording not possessing that information, it still seems easy enough to at least see where more information about this can be found, then!
Brian Newbould wrote (1984, booklet for N.Marriner recording of "The Schubert TEN Symphonies") about the M.S. of the Symphony in B minor : "Schubert began a scherzo but probably never finished it.......For the third movement, we have an entire scherzo sketched in piano score, and a melody line for the first section of the trio. There are also two pages of Schubert's orchestration".
(By the way B.N. wrote that the M.S. was in possess of Anselm Huttenbrenner (not of the brother Joseph).
The Newbould assertions regarding the authenticity of the orchestration of the opening bars of mvmt 3 of the eighth (what a sentence!) are pretty much put forward as fact in Schauffler's Schubert biography (The Ariel Of Music, 1949). In fact I've not seen a serious biographical study that suggests otherwise. Then there's the theory that the original 4th mvmt of the 8th ended up as the Entr'acte Music No. 1 from Rosamunde.... but I won't even get into that :)
Anyway, thanks for all the responses. Hopefully at some point that recording will be reissued...
I knew it was one of the Hüttenbrenner brothers who informed Herbeck that the other brother was in possession of Schubert scores, I just couldn't remember which!