I know that Paine has come up a handful of times on this board. I think the board may have been what caused me to get his Symphony No. 2 in the first place. At any rate, I really am only familiar with this work, which I think is fantastic, but plan on getting his Mass and Symphony No. 1 soon.
As with many of the composers discussed on this forum, it seems like not a lot of Paine's works have been recorded on CDs, etc. I'm not necessarily surprised that composers have been overlooked, but he's one of the first big American composers it seems and you would think someone would have pushed to record more of his works.
Am I missing the Paine-recorded-works-vault somewhere, or is this just the sad lot for us fans of unsung composers?
Pretty slim pickins. There seems to be a decent selection of organ music and some piano works (including Malcom Frager's delightful take on the Fuga Giocosa on a Baseball Song "Over the Fence is Out, Boys!") The Prelude to Paine's incidental music for Oedipus Tyrannus is on Kenneth Klein's collection of American orchestral music...a must have for Dudley Buck's Festival Overture on the Star Spangled Banner (surely the greatest setting of the National Anthem ever...)
Maybe you can scare up a copy of Northestern Records disc of the Violin Sonata, Romance and Humoreske for cello and piano, and Larghetto and Humoreske for piano trio. I notice that there is an alternate version of the Violin Sonata available, though I haven't heard it. The Sonata is the major work of these three by a wide margin.
We really need a recording of the marvelous oratorio St. Peter, but who will pay for it? There's also Paine's opera Azara, which would be great to hear, even if it's unlikely to see (or hold) the stage. Was it Karl Kroeger who recorded the Moorish Dance from Azara? I remember it as a pretty tame piece of exoticism, as you might expect from a Victorian era New Englander...
Paine started out brilliantly-the Mass was quite a calling card, but the demands of academic life and the endless demand for choral music in his time resulted in a diminished oeuvre heavy with cantatas, etc, not likely to be revived today...
David
Thanks much for the information!
It is a real shame that more of his (and many others) work is not recorded. I think about someone like Hovhaness or even a Philip Glass (both of whom I have enjoyed on occasion) and the "champions" they have. I think it's important that the more contemporary composers have a "voice" so to speak, but it's frustrating when the money, time, talent is going towards them and not works of the past.**
**By the unsung lot I guess. Another frustration I have is when there are multiple recordings for one specific piece. I know the conductor/orchestra/performer can make a difference, but I'm just not likely to spend my money on another version of a piece I already own.
I'm not too big on the second symphony, IIRC (I don't own it but I'm pretty sure I listened to it at some point...), but the first symphony is often considered the first great American symphony for good reason. He may have modeled after Brahms, but it's a lot more.....ah...rustic? and just a great listen.
I've got a survey in two CDs of Chadwicks piano music : "Selected Piano Works", Denver Oldham piano, New World Records 80424-02 (1993). They contain an early Piano Sonata (op.1, Chadwick aged 20) and several character pieces (in poliptics or individual). Between them a "Funeral March in memory of President Lincoln" (op.9).From the booklet I see that no piece (in the survey) was published later than 1889. I have no idea about actual possible availability of this survey.
Sorry a thousand of times. I have written (and twice) "Chadwick" instead of (obviously) "Payne"
Paine hasn't been totally neglected over the years. For example, edurban, the oratorio St. Peter was released on a 2 CD set by an outfit called GM Recordings about 10 years ago is still available thru Amazon. As are the symphonies and the Mass. I have taped performances of the cantata The Nativity and The Hymn of the West. Among the major works missing from recordings are the Centennial Ode, An Island Fantasy and the Song of Promise. Sadly he doesn't seem to have written any concertos but there is a Duo Concertante for violin, cello and orchestra.
Jerry
Quote from: TerraEpon on Saturday 04 June 2011, 06:46
I'm not too big on the second symphony, IIRC (I don't own it but I'm pretty sure I listened to it at some point...), but the first symphony is often considered the first great American symphony for good reason. He may have modeled after Brahms, but it's a lot more.....ah...rustic? and just a great listen.
Not sure I would consider Brahms an influence on Paine's symphonic style and in the first symphony most definitely not, as the dates don't work let alone the actual sound of the music. And even for the second he'd have to be quick off the mark in assimilating a Brahmsian symphonic influence, as it followed Brahms first two symphonies by a quite short amount of time. How quickly did Brahms's symphonies travel to the US? Maybe the shared heritage of Schumann and Beethoven?
I have to say that I don't hear much Brahms in Paine's music. The dominant models for the 1st symphony are Beethoven, then Mendelssohn. The 2nd is overwhelmingly Schumann (it is, after all, a 'Spring' Symphony) with touches of Mendelssohn and even Raff.
Imho, the Spring Symphony beats No. 1 soundly both for both content and expressivity...and that big New England hymn tune in the last movement is a beauty. To quote from an account of the premier in 1880: "...ladies waved handkerchiefs, men shouted in approbation, and the highly respected John S[ullivan] Dwight, arbiter in Boston of criticism, if not of manners, stood in his seat frantically opening and shutting his umbrella as an expression of uncontrollable enthusiasm." Over 100 years later, I was at the New York premiere and the audience reception was just as enthusiastic. If I'd had an umbrella, I would have opened it.
David
FWIW for me the problem with Paine 2 is simply its length. At over 50 minutes it just goes on too long for its material, however attractive it is. Although Paine 1 is heavily indebted to Beethoven in particular, it seems to me to sprawl far less and for that reason I prefer it. However, both symphonies really ought to be performed a lot more, being two of the earliest examples of the art in America. We are fortunate to have had Zubin Mehta record them both with the NYPO - very valuable CDs indeed.
BTW I don't hear any Brahms in Paine at all. The predominant influences are surely LvB, Mendelssohn and Schumann. And I'm sometimes put in mind of Rubinstein...and maybe the Liszt of the symphonic poems...
....fine. I should just stop posting anything here.
Jerfilm, Thanks for the reminder about the live St. Peter. I think the label is long gone, but following your advice I got a sort-of reasonably priced copy on Amazon marketplace. I remember hesitating over it for some reason 20 years ago, then couldn't find it. Now, thanks to the internet...my collection is that much more Paine-full.
David
Quote from: TerraEpon on Saturday 04 June 2011, 20:51
....fine. I should just stop posting anything here.
Don't let me stop you! And please don't take disagreement as some sort of personal attack - it isn't. And I may quite easily be wrong (I often am!)
Quote from: edurban on Saturday 04 June 2011, 21:03
Jerfilm, Thanks for the reminder about the live St. Peter. I think the label is long gone, but following your advice I got a sort-of reasonably priced copy on Amazon marketplace. I remember hesitating over it for some reason 20 years ago, then couldn't find it. Now, thanks to the internet...my collection is that much more Paine-full.
David
I did the same thing, so another thank you to Jerfilm!
I was a little disappointed that there were no electronic formats for the music, because I have this annoying "I want it now" thing sometimes.
QuoteI was a little disappointed that there were no electronic formats for the music, because I have this annoying "I want it now" thing sometimes.
Me, too. Plus I like the fact that they are usually about 1/2 price and for another 10 cents I can burn my own CDs.....
Jerry
Fry in the 1850s, Bristow in the 1860s, Paine in the 1870s: with each the composition of symphonies by an American became more assured, despite the general absence of colleagues who could provide stimulating competition in this rarified genre.
always tend to suspect that that was more a near-absence though and am curious about the exceptions. (and restricting too, reluctantly, to numbered non-programmatic symphonies, interested though I still am in Heinrich e.g. Admittedly this would partially discount Fry's symphonic output too, though not meaning to.)
When did Daniel Gregory Mason write his 3 symphonies again? Did William Mason write any? Arthur Bird's is from the latter 1880s so too late for this particular joust :) - still, haven't heard it and would like to...
(Somewhat suspicious of claims of the sort one often sees, not just on Wikipedia- that a person, e.g. Fry, was the first born in America to compose for large symphony orchestra- and that particular phrase, specifically from the article on Fry in Wikipedia, is ambiguous anyway- first in order of birth? first in order of publication of first composition using large symphony orchestra? - but one digresses...)
Eric
Well everyone knows that Beethoven was the first to use trombones in a symphony...
The earliest American symphony known to me is the Symphony in E-flat Major by Charles Hommann, recently published in the MUSA series. I have not heard the symphony, but based on some surprisingly strong string quartets by Hommann from the 1830s, it is probably no accident that the symphony shares its key with the Eroica.
Quote from: TerraEpon on Monday 06 June 2011, 06:50
Well everyone knows that Beethoven was the first to use trombones in a symphony...
Oh, no, not again! You know that it was Eggert who did it the year before, right? Beethoven was, however, the first to use trombones, piccolo and contrabassoon at the same time in a symphony.
Whoosh....
JimL- I took TerraEpon as using "everyone knows", erm, sarcastically, especially given my complaints just preceding.
Quote from: JimL on Thursday 09 June 2011, 06:10
Quote from: TerraEpon on Monday 06 June 2011, 06:50
Well everyone knows that Beethoven was the first to use trombones in a symphony...
Oh, no, not again! You know that it was Eggert who did it the year before, right? Beethoven was, however, the first to use trombones, piccolo and contrabassoon at the same time in a symphony.
A trombonist friend of mine told me once that Michael Haydn got there first but I don't know if that's true.
Ranging far afield here, but hopefully people find this kind of thing interesting. Michael Haydn did compose a work sometimes called his "Trombone Symphony"; I have it on a CD where it is called a Divertimento in D Major. It's like 8 or 9 or 10 movements long, and it's more properly a serenade that features a couple of different instruments as soloists, including the trombone. The "Trombone Symphony" is concocted by yanking three movements out of this serenade/divertimento. It's just like when they pull two movements from a Leopold Mozart serenade to create his semi-famous Trombone Concerto, and another two form his slightly more famous Trumpet Concerto... from the same serenade! So, to sum up... not really, no. There is, however, a 1768 Symphony (yes, supposedly really a symphony) by Joseph Krottendorfer: 2 oboes, 8 trumpets (!), 2 trombones, strings. As far as I know, this has yet to be recorded; I wonder if the score exists.
Sorry about the big tangent, but 18th century music is more my thing, and I can't help myself.
In any case, I obtained the Paine CDs a couple of years ago, and was utterly amazed by the 1st symphony, and then a hint disappointed by the 2nd. Strangely enough, the 2nd has started to grow on my after revisiting it recently, especially the 2nd movement (scherzo). While it does seem to ramble a little, I find the rambling through the core of the scherzo to be relaxing and pretty now, whereas on first listen I was a touch bored by it (I only listened to it once all the way through until this month!) The 3rd movement contains some particularly interesting material, it just wanders on so long that it kind of frustrates me that several fantastic passages of music are dragged down by being surrounded with minutes of orchestral lethargy. I really think the 3rd movement could be a true gem, if Paine had heavily condensed it.
I think when I talked about it the first time, I said that it felt to me like Paine was trying too hard to emulate what was going on at the time with the big symphonists. As I mentioned above, my opinion of it has gotten slightly higher recently, but I still kind of get the same impression. Not that there's anything wrong with wanting to be current; I just don't think there's anything wrong with looking backwards, either, and maybe that was more Paine's strong suit. Then again, I only have 3 works of his in my entire collection, so that's not enough to make such sweeping statements. I don't like the idea of screwing around with composers' music, but at the same time, I'd be so tempted to endorse the practice here; I think a really excellent symphony could be created by chopping Paine's 2nd down to size. In all 3 works I have, the guy showed real flashes of talent and skill, and I'd like to hear more.
Speaking of rambling... sorry.
No need to apologise, Josh. That was a very interesting ramble actually!
Ironically, in my pursuit of free books to read on my Kindle, I happened upon this book prior to the JKP discussion, but I just started reading his section.
I find it fairly entertaining, and maybe there are some other unsungs discussed in this book that could be featured in future posts! ;D
http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1533759&pageno=46 (http://www.gutenberg.org/catalog/world/readfile?fk_files=1533759&pageno=46)
A score of Paine's Tempest has recently become available on IMSLP. http://imslp.org/wiki/The_Tempest,_Op.31_(Paine,_John_Knowles) (http://imslp.org/wiki/The_Tempest,_Op.31_(Paine,_John_Knowles))
Paine wrote a handful of chamber music pieces. Three are collected on an old Northeastern CD, NR219, which I've been enjoying this July afternoon. The Violin Sonata, op. 24 (1875/rev 1905) is the standout here, a relatively short but substantial, dramatic work in which Paine really has something to say. The Romanza and Humoresque, op. 30 for cello and piano is a pleasant repackaging of rather commonplace musical ideas. Despite the similarity of title, the Larghetto and Humoresque for piano trio, op. 32 (1877/rev ca 1897) is a much darker and more forceful work than opus 30. Like the violin sonata, it communicates something fresh and dare I say inspired. To the best of my knowledge, none of these works have been published.
Op. 32 has been broadcast a few years ago by some German radio station. It was announced as "Piano Trio op.32". I never questioned this though I thought it a very strange sort of trio - along 19th century standards anyway... ;)
erm, actually, all 3 have. "Three chamber works for piano and strings", ed. by John C. Schmidt contains opp. 24, 30 and 32. Published 2 decades ago (1991) by A-R editions.
Excellent! Thanks, Eric.