I'm starting an offbeat project of listening to Third Symphonies as a programmed series over several days/weeks. Twenty suggestions have come in from Mahler-List members but I don't want to miss other good third symphonies which are less well known. Can you suggest any, and if possible, for a bonus point, supply the CD label/number, along with any comment about why you like it?
You don't tell us which symphonies are already on your list, so it may be difficult to avoid duplication. I assume you have Vaughan-Williams' 3rd on your list, and, of course Raff's.
I think I would argue for Havergal Brian's 3rd which has an important concertante piano part (in fact, it started off as a piano concerto but quickly developed into a symphony) - splendidly recorded by Hyperion, now on their Helios label; Frederic Cowen's 3rd "The Scandinavian" contains some beautiful lyrical writing, especially for the horns (Marco Polo) as does Kurt Atterberg's 3rd (CPO). I love Josef Otto af Sillen's 3rd Symphony - very well crafted - (Sterling). Other favourite 3rds that come to mind are by Bax, Sibelius, Gliere (just gorgeous), Borodin, Julius Rontgen, Gade (with concertante piano part) and Anthony Payne's reconstruction of the sketches for Elgar's 3rd.
Richard Arnell's Third is a magnificent wartime symphony (Dutton) and Draeseke's Third - The Tragica - is one of the truly great German symphonies (MDG and cpo). Finally, how about Stanford's Third: The Irish? There are fine recordings on both Chandos and Naxos.
Definitely Raff 3 and Draeseke 3, but I make a strong plea for Rubinstein's Third in A Major, op. 56 (Marco Polo 1994 and Naxos 2002). A wonderful work with passages full of passion, strong melodic developments and not to forget the beautiful 2nd movement with its lovely clarinet opening. This symphony offers the listener some fine Russian themes, so why the narrow-minded complaints by the so-called Mighty Five? Nothing but jealousy if you ask me...
Noskowski 3 (Polish radio broadcast to be issued by Sterling)
Bruch 3 (Chandos)
Gernsheim 3 (Arte Nova)
Fibich 3 (Chandos)
Fuchs 3 (Thorofon)
Weingartner 3 (cpo)
F. Schmidt 3 (Chandos)
Well, perhaps not great symphonies, but all great fun in their own way...
The subject of another thread - Thomas Schmidt-Kowalski (b.1949) wrote a Third Symphony which is a modern romantic delight. Beautifully proportioned from beginning to end, with a dramatic adagio finale movement.
The only recording of which I am aware is on Naxos - and for German distribution only, alas! But available nevertheless, as per the links on the aforementioned thread about Herr S-K.
Another "Third" to consider is that of Guy Ropartz. This Breton composer wrote some gorgeous music, much of it based upon the sea and the Brittany coastal scenery. His Third Symphony is a mighty paean to nature and humankind. It features a large orchestra and chorus. The text is the composer's own and it celebrates love, truth and brotherhood.
The recording to have (is it the only one on CD?) is on EMI - Michel Plasson conducting the Orchestre du Capitol de Toulouse.
Haakon Børresen - Symphony No.3 (his last, and perhaps best)
Einar Englund - Symphony No.3 (modern, yes, but totally approachable and full of power)
could go on and on and...
Definitely Bruch 3, but try the Manfred Honeck recording on Marco Polo if you can find it (maybe this is on Naxos now?) His way with the intro to the last movement is so very lovely...Hickox and especially Masur rush ahead here and it goes for nothing IMO.
Can't get too excited about Cowen 3, which seems to me let down by his usual inability to come up with a decent tune. Parry 3, however, called the "English", is delightful.
What about Reinecke 3 on Chandos? A big, warm-hearted exercise in the Mendelssohn-Schumann vein with plenty of good tunes...
From America: Bristow 3 on Chandos (Jarvi) and the Dane Asger Hamerick's 3rd (premiered in Baltimore in 1889) on Marco Polo
Glazunov 3 is always fun. I like Jarvi (Orfeo) in this.
David
Tournemire 3 (A masterpiece)
Krennikov 3 is kitsch fun (unlike Tikhon!)
Lyatoshynsky 3 (Tremendous composer)
Parry 3 should be in the repertory
Bax 3 (I like it anyway!)
Roy Harris 3 (A Masterpiece)
Langgaard 3 (lovely work)
Hanson 3 (Exciting & colourful)
Diamond 3 (Underated)
Magnard 3 (Superb!)
Bantock The cyprian Goddess!!!
Antheil 3 (Wierd & wonderful)
Grant Still 3 (Rather nice)
Scriabin 3 (Love it!)
Martinu 3 (Powerful)
Dopper 3 (Underated)
Fricker 3 (Impressive)
Mennin 3 (underated)
Gliere is a must have.
Quote from: Paul Barasi on Tuesday 25 August 2009, 20:40
I'm starting an offbeat project of listening to Third Symphonies as a programmed series over several days/weeks. Twenty suggestions have come in from Mahler-List members but I don't want to miss other good third symphonies which are less well known.
Which Mahler List (there are several, and I do not see such recommendations on the two I frequent). Please post the 3rd symphonies that they've recommended.
My recommendations would be:
Gliere 3 'Ilya Murometz' by Farberman (one of the great forgotten symphonies)
Magnard 3 by Ansermet (Magnard's best, IMO, excellent)
Myaskovsky 3 by Svetlanov (the only recording I know of, a sadly neglected composer)
Berwald 3 'Singuliere' by Bjorlin (excellent and enjoyable beginning to end)
Atterberg 3 by Rasilainen (beautiful and powerful Swedish settings)
Tubin 3 'Heroic' by Jarvi (big Scandinavian music)
Fibich 3 by Albrecht (spectacular opening and final movement)
Ropartz 3 by Plasson (filled with mystery, folklore and wonder)
Gedalge 3 (never recorded commercially, but some broadcast performances floating around)
Fodor, op. 19, sometimes called 3, sometimes 4 (filled with the influences of Beethoven & Schubert - except he preceded them both! A wondrous composition)
Borodin 3 - I like Malko, but then, I like LPs - (lots of Russian color)
Arnold 3 by Hickox (intriguing themes and orchestration, modern without being abrasive)
Bax 3 by Thompson, although some prefer Handley (post-Romantic, flush with orchestral textures)
And I'll also second the choices of Diamond, Lyatoshinsky and Langgaard.
B.Thomson,very underated,had adventurous tastes.I was hoping he'd get to record a Daniel Jones cycle. Alas!
Thanks for all the suggestions: fantastic response.
It's actually called "Mahler-List", which can be joined at http://listserv.uh.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=mahler-list&A=1 (http://listserv.uh.edu/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=mahler-list&A=1)
Suggestions are at http://listserv.uh.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0908c&L=mahler-list (http://listserv.uh.edu/cgi-bin/wa?A1=ind0908c&L=mahler-list) Look under "favorite thirds", which emerged from string (on the same page) called "Twittered Mahler" where some postings also contain suggestions. They came up with:
Bach, Brandenburg, Beethoven, Brahms, Bruckner, Copland, Dvorak, Enescu, Harris, Haydn, Honneger, Hovhaness, Liszt Symphonic Poem, Mendelssohn, Nielsen, Piston, Rachmaninov, Randall, Rautavaara, Rorem, Roussel, Saint-Saëns, Schmidt, Schubert, Schuman, Schumann, Scriabin, Sibelius, Tchaikovsky, Thompson, Vaughn Williams.
Oh, okay, I do hang out at the Mahler-List, I just don't look at posts that have to do with Twitter.
Got the standard list of standard repertoire composers in that list, with a few modernists to spice it up. But most of them are going to be .... uh .... familiar. Our lists are much more interesting. 8)
I noticed Gliere was lacking. One of the all time great works in my opinion.
Mahler-List tends to discuss ... Mahler - except when members wander off to other (inevitably?) more well-known composers. (Well-known and Unsung composers aren't exactly a cross-over like classical/pop.) I did initiate a discussion there back in July 2002 on "Great works by little known composers". There's been only one Mahler-List discussion on Twitter Mahler - and that was started by ... me. It led to another on Great Thirds, which prompted me to bring here this discussion on Great Unsung Third Symphonies. Obviously our Unsung site is unique and fascinating - that's why we're all here!
Far from being uneven,I only avoid the Gliere 3 because
I always want to play it all the way through,or full blast!
That reminds me to put the Naxos complete 'Red Poppy'
on my 'little list'. Would love to hear a Gliere opera too.
I would also like to recommend Madetoja's 3rd symphony.
Hello Syrelius
I too would like to recommend Madetoya's 3rd and also the Gliere. Am very fond of both composers.
Quote from: Pengelli on Thursday 27 August 2009, 15:17
That reminds me to put the Naxos complete 'Red Poppy'
on my 'little list'. Would love to hear a Gliere opera too.
In my experience, Glière gets a LOT worse after the Revolution. 'Ilya Muromets' is a glorious highlight of the music of the Tsarist era, but was Glière always a bit out of place in the Soviet Union - also because of his heritage.
Gliere didn't get worse, per se, he just got...how to put it...conservative. His music sounds like it was written in 1890 -- which isn't a bad thing per se, just not all that innovative. But I would never EVER do without his Harp Concerto.
Gliere's actually a favorite composer of mine in general, and I'd so love to hear more of his ballets especially.
Nobody has mentioned Stenhammar's 3rd! It's a fragment lasting only a couple of minutes; a magnificent opening and that's it. Maybe someone could pay Anthony Payne to recontruct the whole work! Ideal listening if you are in a hurry. :D It's on Chandos.
Then there's Richard Wetz. Has he ever been mentioned in these threads?
Finally, there's Gorecki's - I shall risk a flaying by stating that this is surely the most boring symphony ever written.
Er,yes he has........
Herbie wrote:
Finally, there's Gorecki's - I shall risk a flaying by stating that this is surely the most boring symphony ever written.
If you go here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,30.0.html), Herbie, you will see that you are not alone. Not that I'm encouraging you to reopen this debate :)
Lars-Erik Larsson - Symphony no 3 (1944-45)
If you liked God In Disguise, you will like this 3rd of 3 symphonies.
While we can differ on which of the 3 are best, (all 3 are a melodious joy to hear)..this one was unforgettable to me.
Since Larsson disowned his symphonies, we should be very grateful they have been preserved.
(Saint Saens 3 comes to mind at times with this piece)
I have a dear friend whose hobby is collecting 3rd symphonies. She rationalises it that on average, it takes a composer two symphonies to find his feet; then there may be a decline in powers later in life. So in terms of a probability distribution, a composer's third symphony is most likely to be the best.
Please remember what our remit is here at UC, so let's not wander off into Prokofiev, Khatchaturian, etc.
sorry, I forgot the side-boards here
Hrm. _Great_ unsung thirds? I incline to almost agree re the Myaskovsky (that's a heck of a funeral march at the end). Other 3rds I might want to nominate (Brian, Schmidt, Wetz) don't quite make it, very good though I might think them. "Great" is a deliberately and obviously high bar, after all.
(... hrm. I should check if he's been mentioned; I would make a case that Magnard's 3rd comes pretty close, at that, come to think of. Yes. :) Berwald?)
How about:
Ropartz Symphony #3 in E for soli, chorus and orchestra?
One of my least favorites: Mahler 3
J
While I've only heard it once, I am surprised I forgot the Ropartz. (Ah. I couldn't stand Mahler 3, now I adore it, though not so much as I do 4 and - well, not adore, that's not the word, but...- well, anyway- 6. Hrm. Not really sure what changed my opinion in 20 years, though. Not unsung anymore, anycase, not now it isn't- itself a matter of some surprise maybe.)
Hrm. Going to have to listen to it yet a few more times - probably not "great" I suppose though unlike Lawrence Foster I'd say it's rather good- Enescu 3?...
Ropartz is a good case example where the third is his best, IMO. (Though I admit to having heard it more often than the others).
Probably defying the sacred "remit', Carl Nielsen had a period of "sungness" maybe not so sung anymore, but his 3rd symphony is one of those I can listen to back to back several times.
Quote from: mattbrown on Friday 19 April 2013, 22:15
the sacred "remit"
...without which there would be no forum at all because we'd have no interest in running it. Please let's not rehearse this subject: it was settled last summer and is not going to change. No problem with Nielsen 3 anyway...
Hmmm - never visited this thread! ::)
Great unsung 3rds? How about Ludvig Norman's Sym. No.3 in D minor, Op.58 (1881)? In the romantic tradition, and perhaps it was dismissed as old-fashioned for 1881. But since then it has been inexplicably neglected. The opening movement demonstrates Norman's total command of orchestral forces, using precisely the right instrumentation and nuances of tempo and volume to say what he wants to say. The ex-radio performance which I think was/is available in the UC downloads section is spectacular. :)
Has anyone mentioned Franz Schmidt's 3rd yet (apologies if they have and I missed it)? Those galloping, wide-sweeping melodic lines and that seemingly unflagging energy. What a piece!
What a composer!
My favorite 3rd symphonies are: Gliere, Enesco, Melartin, Ropartz, Roussel, Szymanowski, Rachmaninov (much better than his 2nd, and I think could be counted almost as unsung, and therefore I wanted to include it here). Also Nielsen's is very nice one!
Interesting is, that Enesco, Ropatz, Nielsen and Szymanowski use vocal parts too in their 3rd symphonies.
have you heard the broadcast of the uncut Melartin 3rd in the archives, jani? Better than the Ondine recording, I think, and certainly more complete...
eschiss1, yes the complete version of Melartin's 3rd is the one to listen. I don't care about the Grinn's take on it at all. I hope the symphony will get more performances though Oramo did fantastic job with it!
I wish Chausson had written more symphonies, his only one is so fantastic, but this is off topic...
I have little to add to this thread but will cast my votes to plump up the tallies. But first, please indulge me in a few words about "greatness," intended not as proclamation but as fodder for discussion. For me, music scores can be objectified as structures, but since music is ultimately a recreative medium intended for consumption by individuals, "greatness" must ultimately be constrained by each side of that triangular relationship. The notes, the realization, and the reception are like facets on a crystal: if one is clouded the whole crystal becomes dull. It's a happy day when all three are in harmony. Then the crystal dazzles.
My responses to 10 unsung romantic symphony 3s, on a scale of 1 to 9 (Beethoven's, of course):
8 Draeseke
8 Enescu
7.5 Magnard
7 Glière
7 Raff
7 Wetz
6.5 Melartin (uncut version)
6 Chadwick (might go higher with a better recording)
5.5 L. Nielsen
5.5 Dvorak
Dvorak 3 (while unsung at least compared to his others) is just a bit too flawed for me- structurally, specifically. I think he later learned how to make some things work that at that point didn't. When I hear the slow movement end in D-flat major and the finale just come in in E-flat major with no transition at all, no taking advantage of the distant relationship, I think of the opportunity missed (think of the finale of Haydn's last piano sonata- E major slow movement, followed by a G-natural repeated note that could be 3-of-E minor but turns out to be 3 of E-flat major... what a moment!...)
Keep talking, Eric. Those are great ears you've got.
I wish. I've got good relative pitch, sometimes, but nothing like perfect pitch. Though if I hear a piece often enough, things sink in more and more; there's a lot to be said just for often-repeated hearing. ... Not quite getting your meaning and ...
If one could not understand a composition unless one had perfect pitch, the audience for serious music would be even smaller than it is.
Indeed. Added to which perfect pitch is as much a curse as a blessing, so I am told by one who possesses it. That said, back to Third Symphonies....
Has anybody put in a word for Maliszewski's 3rd? I will now.
I heartily agree with many of the suggestions offered already (Atterberg, Gliere, Enescu, Magnard etc.). I would also add:
Ludolf Nielsen: Symphony no. 3. A grand masterpiece, full of heroic and atmospheric passages, which often resemble a Scandinavian Bruckner. L. Nielsen's first two symphonies are fine works, but no. 3 is on a completely different level IMO.
Braga Santos: Symphony no. 3. While not quite as monumental as no. 4, no. 3 is a sweeping, colorful work with echoes of VW and Respighi. The finale is especially magnificent.
Charles Tournemire: Symphony no. 3 Moscow 1913: A haunting, individual work with marvelous orchestration. It cries out for a better performance than the only recorded one on Marco Polo.
There is a superior performance of Tournemire's Third Symphony by the Liege Philharmonic conducted by Pierre Bartholomee on Auvidis Valois. It's coupled with the extraordinary Seventh Symphony. I reviewed those discs for Amazon.co.uk earlier this year.
Thanks very much for this info-I was only aware Auvidis Valois recorded the magnificent Sixth! Three copies are left on US Amazon-I'll have to snap one up!
QuoteLudolf Nielsen: Symphony no. 3. A grand masterpiece...
Not, IMO, on the level of Nielsen 4 or Sibelius, but in my review on Amazon I responded similarly. I love the work. Hard to believe it hasn't been published.
I wasn't implying that it is on the level of Sibelius or Nielsen, but it's certainly a great work in its own right! :)
I'm guessing btw that the Ludolf Nielsen Society (http://ludolfnielsen.dk/) may intend to do something about that eventually. Hope so, anyway.
I picked up a good bargain of the 3rd and 4th symphonies of Raff on the Helios label. I looked at the reviews on the Raff site and found little information about this CD. What is the general opinion of this recording. I of course appreciate the opinion of this forum.
Tom :)
Hrm. The site discography (http://www.raff.org/records/discog/cd_sym.htm) misspells his name as Watton, but yes, there's only a slight mention otherwise, linking to a review @ MVDaily. Perhaps someone wishing to contribute a longer review might have it considered...
I think I might very well do that.
I had the CD, but discarded it. It's OK (and certainly cheap), but the performances aren't a patch on the best in the catalogue - e.g. d'Avalos on ASV or Stadlmair on Tudor in No.3 or Stadlmair on Tudor in No.4.
The performances were OK for their time, when the only other competition on CD was from Schneider on Marco Polo (who cut out a huge lump of Im Walde's finale), but have been superseded now in the case of each symphony. I haven't listened to them in years, but both performances were rather bloodless, as I remember. The next release from Järvi on Chandos is rumoured to be the same coupling - now that'll be something.
Sorry that I misspelled Wetton in the discography, Eric, I'll correct that when I update the site.
As Alan said they were very cheap and to answer Mark's opinion I didn't find the Im Walde's to be lifeless but I'll agree that I got the feeling that it was missing something. Perhaps now my best plan of attack is to wait for the Jarvi to come out :-\
Tom
I could mention several third symphonies that already figure in these pages, but as far as I know, nobody came up with the third by the Dutch composer Bernard Zweers: "Aan mijn vaderland" (To my fatherland). Certainly not the best (third), but then, which symphony is? Zweers's symphony can be heard on Youtube in a performance from the seventies in the Amsterdam Concertgebouw: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xkzNJ0wLCxU
Other unsung third symphonies that are well worth to be heard are Jef van Hoof's from 1945 and the symphony No. 3 by Marinus de Jong, composed in 1976 but truly romantic.
Kalervo Tuukkanen's 3rd Symphony. Maybe not great, but I like it.
The Zweers 3rd can also be heard on CD (may be the same performance; I forget.)
Johann Rufinatscha's 3rd Symphony !
Interesting. What are your reasons, please?
Witold Maliszewski's Symphony No. 3 in C minor, Op. 14 is enjoyable.
Gentlemen: please supply reasons, otherwise this thread is just a list of 3rd symphonies...
Reasons, you are right. The Zweers (indeed, there is a 'new' Sterling-cd with the performance of this symphony by the Residentie Orkest under Hans Vonk. A very nice performance, though with some cuts in the finale) may be not the greatest symphony ever, but it shows the composer at his best. Zweers wrote mostly vocal music, but here he proves to be able to write broad melodies and his orchestration reminds sometimes of Bruckner. Together with the only symphony of Johannes Verhulst Zweers's third could be the called the best Dutch symphony of the 19th century. However: orchestras almost never perform it.
Van Hoof, Belgian composer, was oldfashioned when he wrote his third at the end of World War II. His symphonies are very melodious, mostly light hearted and well wrought. Again: not one of the desert island disks, but music that is worth hearing.
Finally the De Jong. De Jong, Dutch by birth, Belgian, or better Flemish by choice, was a prolific composer, who enjoyed a long life and wrote music almost upto his death. The third (as is the fourth) is a work of his old age and was composed as hommage to the composer's parents. De Jong wrote some fine tunes, but the qualilty of this symphony is the melancholy. In a sense this is music of a long gone past, revived by a 85 year old composer, still working in a tradition that a younger generation (in those years) would be pleased to bury. De Jong made his statement very well and as some of the avant-garde of the seventies sounds outdated, De Jong's symphony still stands.
Thank you. That's really interesting to read.
It may be interesting to know that the final movement of Zweers' Third Symphony was composed some years after the first three, and it is probably the lesser of the four. The third movement, on the other hand, is a truly inspired, magnificent and majestic piece, and certainly counts among the best music ever composed in this country.
And I wholeheartedly agree with Sibeliusfan's judgment of Verhulst's symphony – it isn't performed very regularly, but fortunately it does crop up every now and then in concert programmes.
I've never heard of the symphony from Zweers so I'll look to investigate when I get caught up a litttle bit :)
Another (Dutch) third came to my mind: the third symphony of Jan van Gilse. Van Gilse (1881-1944) wrote it in 1908, relatively short after finishing his studies with Engelbert Humperdinck. Two of the five movements contain a soprano-solo. The music is greatly influenced by the German late romantics and could be family of works by Reger or Wetz. The dark colours make it an interesting work, although a little long. Van Gilse's fourth and last symphony is even better, but this topic is about third symphonies. On the CPO-label the four symphonies are well served by the Netherlands Symphony Orchestra and conductor David Porcelijn.
Jāzeps Medinš: Symphony No 3 in E flat Major. Reasons for me are easy - anything written after 1900 that is tonal and tuneful is great in my book.
...although it may not fit here. 'Tonal' may not mean 'Romantic'.
The question that I have has to do with the Helios recording of Raff's 'Im Walde' is where is it lacking?
Tom :)
Glazunov - Symphony No 3.
This is a transition work that shows Glazunov moving away from his early period yet somewhat in the shadow of his beloved Borodin. The Symphony opens and expands in a very leisurely pace [Not one of the only reasons why it is called his most Tchaikowskian of symphonies]. The Scherzo is a grandiose affair that takes you to a ballet. All in all I think this is a great No. 3. even looks forward to the bewitching 4th Symphony. .... But then again I am a sucker for Glazunov's music.
Has anyone mentioned the magnificent Symphony #3 in E for soli, chorus and orchestra by Joseph Guy Rpoartz?
My favorite of his - sorry I have not listened to it in a very long time and it's packed away in one of a couple hundred boxes involved in our moving from MN to WI.
Jerry
A "This Topic" search on "Ropartz" shows him turning up (anew, not in response to earlier mentions) again and again and again, so - yep! :) (I have one of the two recordings - the Plasson, not the more recent one from the complete cycle- but still haven't heard it, I think; will have to do something about that...) (Edit: I guess I have heard it once, if I said I did here a few years ago. Now slightly remember having done...)
(Looking through back-suggestions I'm inclined, having re-listened a few times since, to upgrade Enesco 3, if only from "rather good" (the adjective I used last time") to "stunning"... I really am going to have to go interloan a copy of Bentoiu's book on the composer, whose music is becoming more and more fascinating)
Quotethe Helios recording of Raff's 'Im Walde' is where is it lacking?
Compare the orchestral response in either d'Avalos' or Stadlmair's recordings. The former, in particular, features the Philharmonia Orchestra which has a depth and range of sound which no other recorded performance can match.
Ropartz is great, those excellent Timpani CDs should be reissued in the form of a complete box! But the Third Symphony under Plasson is also a splendid recording!
Quote from: FBerwald on Saturday 23 May 2015, 13:30
Glazunov - Symphony No 3.
This is a transition work that shows Glazunov moving away from his early period yet somewhat in the shadow of his beloved Borodin. The Symphony opens and expands in a very leisurely pace [Not one of the only reasons why it is called his most Tchaikowskian of symphonies]. The Scherzo is a grandiose affair that takes you to a ballet. All in all I think this is a great No. 3. even looks forward to the bewitching 4th Symphony. .... But then again I am a sucker for Glazunov's music.
As am I.
Tom :)