Post moved to Composer Reference board.
Quote from: Albion on Monday 17 October 2011, 14:49Apparently there are some manuscripts at the BL, but the reference
Music manuscripts 1862-88
Music Misc.. Deposit 2004 /23
does not lead to a description.
???
Just found out that they were acquired by the BL at a 2004 Bonhams auction - here is the catalogue entry:
MUSIC - GADSBY (HENRY) Archive of autograph musical manuscripts, many incorporating revisions and corrections, by Henry Gadsby, comprising his "Symphony No 2 in A major...op: 4...Written in Feb: 1867. Rescored Sep: 1873", his "Festal Symphony" of 1887-88 ("First performed at the Crystal Palace Saturday Concert Novr 3rd 1888"), 'Harold' ("Festal March for Full Orchestra (with Organ Accomp: ad lib"), an "Original Composition for the American Organ", and piano duet arrangements of 'Andromeda' ("written expressly for the Crystal Palace Saturday Concert"), 'The Forest of Arden', and 'The Hunt is Up'; together with a presentation baton to Gadsby from the lady members of the CCA An rare example to two pre-Elgarian English symphonies. Henry Gadsby (1842-1907) was a contemporary of Stainer's at St Paul's choir school and began his musical career as organist at St Anne's, Blackfriars. He was one of the first musical professors at the Guildhall School of Music, as well as Professor of Harmony and of the Piano at Queen's College. Much of his work, including 'Andromeda', was commissioned by August Manns for the Crystal Palace.
so at least two symphonies and a Festal March survive ....
;D
Tantalising ... but see my comment on Wingham.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Monday 17 October 2011, 15:09It's fascinating to learn of someone who one's never heard of before and who had such a, on the face of it, tempting catalogue but the key issue is always: how good is the music?
At the moment we cannot make any assessment of many of these forgotten composers, but information is the first step.
;)
I'm with Mark - again!
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 17 October 2011, 15:17I'm with Mark - again!
Of course, nobody (including myself) is expecting masterpieces to emerge if and when scores are found and examined, but then this surely is the UC rather than the UM forum - a place for disseminating information, however arcane and
perhaps of interest to others (possibly numbered on the fingers of one hand)!
:)
Hrm. http://lccn.loc.gov/unk84191774 (http://lccn.loc.gov/unk84191774) says "Publisher: Novello" but also says "Manuscript". ... maybe just noting that the -work- was published by Novello but that the holding is a manuscript copy? Hopeful maybe. (Lord of the Isles is the work in question.)
Lord of the Isles was advertised by Novello (in their customary back-of-every-octavo catalogue) as a paperback, costing 4/0: in the context of the LOC catalogue entry that manuscript reference looks a bit odd - most unlikely that it is anything other than an error, but you never know...
:)
I do not denigrate research - I have done plenty of it myself, e.g. into Percy Sherwood in 2005-6. So, dig away by all means, but bear in mind that most archaeology finds small pieces of pot rather than long-lost treasures.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 17 October 2011, 17:13dig away by all means, but bear in mind that most archaeology finds small pieces of pot rather than long-lost treasures.
Oh, rest assured that I always bear it in mind - but small pieces of pot often tell how people lived in former times and what their tastes were. If Victorian concert-goers, orchestras and conductors responded with approval, if not rabid enthusiasm, to native works written in a certain idiom,
that might be considered interest enough for some (from a socio-musical viewpoint).
:)
Small pieces of pot don't make a great display for anyone except experts, however. It's buried treasure - or at least pieces thereof - that make a great exhibit. Anyway, lest I push the analogy too far, I'll leave it at that...
I am going to have to assume that on your side of the pond "pot" is not also slang for marijuana, or the last few posts would not have been written with straight faces. :D!
It has the same double meaning over here - but not in the context of archaeology!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 17 October 2011, 19:15
Small pieces of pot don't make a great display for anyone except experts, however. It's buried treasure - or at least pieces thereof - that make a great exhibit. Anyway, lest I push the analogy too far, I'll leave it at that...
No doubt a pertinent analogy, but to some members of the forum, perhaps (including myself), the issue of whether an unsung work is a 'masterpiece' or not is simply
not that important: after all, this is not 'Unsung Masterpieces'.
As stated before, this is quite obviously
not a plea to record everything extant by Henry Gadsby and Thomas Wingam, or Frederic Cowen, or anybody for that matter - it is simply an attempt to bring these names into the public arena and hopefully, lead to further investigation.
I'm sorry, but at present there seems to be a great deal of negative reaction to such attempts, unless it relates to certain composers - which is not the impression I got when I joined the forum.
???
Good for you Albion, common sense! I don't expect the "Sung" composers to have only composed masterpieces, and when they have produced something less than spectacular, I don't give up on them. I love learning about every composer, sung or unsung, just because the sounds they have produced have the potential to reach me at a place my own soul and creativity can't go (or I would be a composer myself). I feel that to honor those who could (and can) write music, I need to be open to what they had/have to say, not expecting every note to thrill me, perhaps, but to enjoy the thrill of discovery nonetheless. I never imagined I would get to hear any of the music of the thousands of forgotten composers I have read about (mostly looking for piano concertos!), and yet right here on this very forum I have heard probably more than a hundred pieces by those same until now "forgotten" people. I am happy when I get to hear unheard music, and then I can decide for myself whether it is "my" kind of masterpiece or not. I put things up here, not because I think they are all masterpieces, but because I think some of you may have the same curiousity I have, and if I can pay back at least a little for what I have gained here, then to the good. And I think at one time there was an entry in Baker's, perhaps, that described Anton Bruckner's symphonies as nothing more than extended orchestrated organ pieces. I think the guy who wrote that was wrong, but he had the right to his opinion as does any of us, but if someone had decided based on that not to bother with Bruckner, then we'd have missed a lot of glorious sounds. So, please, don't stop researching, and finding names, those you have brought up recently are very interesting. And to the rest of you musicological archeologists, who knows but what some of those "shards" you find are tiny pieces of not a pot, but a Holy Grail? And I for one will enjoy hearing whatever you dig up, somebody could someday play it for us, and then I could learn for myself whether it was worth it or not. I can't do much, but I can listen and (greatly)appreciate what the rest of you bring. Thanks.
Quote from: Arbuckle on Monday 17 October 2011, 20:43I need to be open to what they had/have to say, not expecting every note to thrill me, perhaps, but to enjoy the thrill of discovery nonetheless.
Very nicely phrased! Enjoyment comes not only from visceral, emotive reaction to the intrinsic object, but also from knowing something of it's context and historical background. These composers clearly felt that they had something to say or demonstrate - whether or not we are remotely interested is our decision.
;D
even my own appreciation for the pottery has grown in (trundling?) around the Library of Congress scans and looking at all the brief dances and piano pieces and parlor songs that make up most, though definitely not all, of the US-published material that they are preserving (and, too, I have become a convert, if you like, in the importance of preserving the music then - I may not be convinced of its value but at least a later generation doesn't have to leave it to my fallible judgment, and there's been so much of it lost that I would have liked to judge for myself etc. if I make any sense at all- my language gets a bit too approximate here I think...) Though I know computer bandwidth is a great concern (I am not trying to be disingenuous...) and on none of these sites can "everything" of (etc.) for future consideration (or anywhere near any noticeable percentage) be stored - (my mediafire account hasn't been up that long and I'm already ... well, hoping they don't move a person into a different tier based on bandwidth the way my other account does... YIPES!... I had already guessed and now don't have to...)
anyway... (here, plot, here plot, here's a piece of thread...)
I have a notion what we are arguing about, but I have a notion that I don't understand -why- we are arguing about it (arguing is not the best-chosen word either, but I keep feeling like there is something not quite on the surface here.)
Every month I open the pages of 'International Record Review' or 'The Gramophone' and read reviews of three or four more cds of Mahler symphonies and think to myself-"Just how many more versions of a Mahler symphony do we need? Who is actually going to buy a Mahler Symphony No.? from some Central European radio orchestra on an obscure label?" And now I see that CPO have embarked on a Bruckner cycle :o
The joy of discovering new music by new composers (from whatever era) is a massive part of my enjoyment of music. Of course not all of the music turns out to be earth-shattering masterpieces, although equally there hasn't been all that much dross either ;D But, from time to time, I find myself astonished by the quality of music which, for whatever reason, has been neglected for far too long. And such a discovery makes it all worth while :)
Quote from: Arbuckle on Monday 17 October 2011, 20:43
...I don't expect the "Sung" composers to have only composed masterpieces, ..............
I don't want to harp on a minor dispute, but I have to say that Arbuckle's whole response is 'spot on' for me. :) ... and I agree with Dundonnell's comment which arrived just as I began typing...
We must be prepared to accept whatever we find, and we won't know if there are hidden/lost/unrecognised masterpieces (or 'mistresspieces'? ;D) unless we get to listen to them, and that clearly may entail a lot of hard work. In any case, even the poor works help us better understand a composer's creative life - and the unsungs are especially important, I think, because they were in the majority and therefore still contributed significantly to the cultural context in which the famous composers worked. I think that's what I'm trying to say! ::)
Anyway, tastes change - as the plethora of Mahler cycles illustres! - and today's minor work may be tomorrow's "most downloaded'! There are many works, and composers, which were once unpopular and regarded as peripheral but are now mainstream, and vice-versa. So... just go for it! :) :)
Let's not get hung up on this, please. The only way that one can assess an unsung composer's value is to look at the scores and, even better, listen to the music. That's inescapable and I certainly wasn't arguing that we should just assume that composer A or B is of no interest on the basis of assumption. Heck, that's the attitude amongst critics and musicologists of the 20th century which saw so many of the "great" unsungs buried for so long. They were condemned by people who had never heard note of their msuic.
No, I was simply sounding a note of caution, as much for my own benefit as anybody else's, that just because I haven't heard of a composer whose catalogue looks interesting on paper I shouldn't assume that his music would tickle my ear when I hear it. Hope springs eternal, which is just as well considering the amount of money I've spend over forty years collecting recordings of works which don't cut the mustard when I finally get to hear them. I don't mind that disappointment because from time to time one unearths a thing of beauty which is worth getting excited about.
Dig on into the archives, John. Dig on, and unearth a treasure...
Quote from: semloh on Monday 17 October 2011, 22:09even the poor works help us better understand a composer's creative life - and the unsungs are especially important, I think, because they were in the majority and therefore still contributed significantly to the cultural context in which the famous composers worked
Quite so. There was a huge amount of composition taking place in Britain in the late-Victorian period which is now effectively lost to us - all too often literally so, due to the destruction of performing material. I would love to hear orchestral music by Gadsby and Wingham but, unfortunately, the opportunity may never arise. However, the less interest that is shown in these composers the less that likelihood will ever come to pass, however 'poor' the results might be to some listeners.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Monday 17 October 2011, 22:23I was simply sounding a note of caution, as much for my own benefit as anybody else's, that just because I haven't heard of a composer whose catalogue looks interesting on paper I shouldn't assume that his music would tickle my ear when I hear it.
Why caution? - I don't honestly think that anything dire will result from posts in this (or any other) thread. With respect (from a musico-historic viewpoint), whether or not it tickles your ear today is of less importance than the tickling of ears in the Crystal Palace circa 1880.
;D
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Monday 17 October 2011, 22:23Dig on, and unearth a treasure...
But I don't want to!
:o
All I would say is this: far be it from me to discourage anyone from digging up unsung composers because I've done a bit of it myself, especially in the case of Percy Sherwood. I also agree that there is a certain thrill involved in the chase. However, Mark mentioned the case of Ebenezer Prout in this connection because it turns out that his music, once lauded, is actually desperately deficient in interest. So, while encouraging anyone to pursue research, I think a touch of realism is in order. Not all music is worth disinterring: some is just not very good. After all, there may be more than one reason why some music has been forgotten. Nevertheless, lest I be misunderstood, I have no interest in discouraging anyone from researching forgotten composers and their music.
My other concern is this: there are many composers whose music has been rediscovered and has yet to be performed in public in modern times, let alone recorded. Of course, a great deal of research and effort has been involved in uncovering all this material, but I am certain that a crucial question has to be asked: it is the same crucial question that I am asked every time I talk to recording companies and performers and it concerns whether the music is worth spending time performing and/or recording in the first place. And I have to have an answer to that question...
So, continue researching, friends, but let your enthusiasm be moderated by a healthy dose of realism!
I apologise profusely if my previous post comes across as patronising. I was simply describing my experience in these matters...
So far as I know, even my favorite composer wrote a number of duds (I am not positive the Wellington's Victory Symphony is quite -that- bad but I hear that his mandolin works (2 sonatas, possibly others) are pretty dull. Dull is to my mind a fairly potent insult if the arts are in question...)
As to not getting hung up on this - I agree and apologize for extending the thread beyond length (and ignoring its subject.)
Back on topic - a couple of portraits:
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb393/albion22/henrygadsby-1.jpg)
Illustrated Sporting and Dramatic News, 30th March 1878
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb393/albion22/gadsby-2.jpg)
Carte-de-visite, Elliott & Fry, c.1880
Mark #19 + Alan #21 = 2 x really great posts!
I'm left with just one area of questions: what about the commercial risks of releasing an unsung composer's CD? Which have done so well that they are on a par with your average big name CD? [Are these already answered somewhere else on the site?]
Thanks, Paul, for your understanding of our position - one which is simply the outcome of serious and sustained involvement in a number of recording projects, all of previously unrecorded music.
Your question is an interesting one and I don't really know the answer, except anecdotally. I have been told by the head of one CD label that a certain release in which I had a small part is one of his most successful releases. It's hard to imagine, though, that we're talking about sales comparable with big-name, big-label releases, so there are obviously considerable financial risks involved here. However, the leading independent labels must think they have a sufficiently large and stable customer base to consider releasing as much unsung music as they do. Maybe Mark can enlighten us further?
Quote from: Paul Barasi on Tuesday 18 October 2011, 22:17
Mark #19 + Alan #21 = 2 x really great posts!
I'm left with just one area of questions: what about the commercial risks of releasing an unsung composer's CD? Which have done so well that they are on a par with your average big name CD? [Are these already answered somewhere else on the site?]
Quote from: Alan Howe on Tuesday 18 October 2011, 22:40
Thanks, Paul, for your understanding of our position - one which is simply the outcome of serious and sustained involvement in a number of recording projects, all of previously unrecorded music.
Your question is an interesting one and I don't really know the answer, except anecdotally. I have been told by the head of one CD label that a certain release in which I had a small part is one of his most successful releases. It's hard to imagine, though, that we're talking about sales comparable with big-name, big-label releases, so there are obviously considerable financial risks involved here. However, the leading independent labels must think they have a sufficiently large and stable customer base to consider releasing as much unsung music as they do. Maybe Mark can enlighten us further?
I think this is veering towards a generalised thread and away from poor old Henry Gadsby - these posts might well be the subject of a new topic in themselves, but this is simply a modest
research thread about a particular composer with no recording envisaged or expected.
:)
Hrm. Did he ever publish under his middle name Robert w/o first name do you suppose...
Also, http://www.cyberhymnal.org/bio/g/a/gadsby_hr.htm (http://www.cyberhymnal.org/bio/g/a/gadsby_hr.htm) "Census entries indicate a 1840 birth" - hrm. Musicsack has 1842, anyway. VIAF just has fl.1848 (... flourished in 1848? that's odder still given the meaning of "flourished"- maybe floruit doesn't mean what I think it means.)
(Then again, neither MusicSack nor VIAF is allencompassing or perfect. I had to figure out info on Percy Hilder Miles mostly by myself, for example.)
Further as to Gadsby:
a contemporary source ("Cyclopedia of Music and Musicians", "Easter-Mystères" book) credits him with three symphonies and a string quartet, among other works. I'm guessing the manuscripts of these have vanished beyond recall too, but I never know when historical information could be useful just filling in, if nothing else, connections between other people.)
Eric
Quote from: eschiss1 on Wednesday 19 October 2011, 02:44
Hrm. Did he ever publish under his middle name Robert w/o first name do you suppose...
Also, http://www.cyberhymnal.org/bio/g/a/gadsby_hr.htm (http://www.cyberhymnal.org/bio/g/a/gadsby_hr.htm) "Census entries indicate a 1840 birth" - hrm. Musicsack has 1842, anyway. VIAF just has fl.1848 (... flourished in 1848? that's odder still given the meaning of "flourished"- maybe floruit doesn't mean what I think it means.)
(Then again, neither MusicSack nor VIAF is allencompassing or perfect. I had to figure out info on Percy Hilder Miles mostly by myself, for example.)
Thanks, Eric. Brown & Stratton (1897) which is authoritative on composers of the period, especially those still living at the time of publication, gives 15th December 1842.
Quote from: eschiss1 on Wednesday 19 October 2011, 02:58
Further as to Gadsby:
a contemporary source ("Cyclopedia of Music and Musicians", "Easter-Mystères" book) credits him with three symphonies and a string quartet, among other works. I'm guessing the manuscripts of these have vanished beyond recall too, but I never know when historical information could be useful just filling in, if nothing else, connections between other people.)
Eric
The Symphonies are No.1 in C, No.2 in A (written 1867, performed 1871, rescored 1873) and No.3 (
Festal) in D (1888). The autograph scores of 2 and 3 are now in the British Library (see post #2). The string quartet (1875) doesn't appear to be in the collection acquired by the BL, unfortunately.
:)
Alan wrote:
QuoteHowever, the leading independent labels must think they have a sufficiently large and stable customer base to consider releasing as much unsung music as they do. Maybe Mark can enlighten us further?
I know that securing a recording of Gadsby's music isn't Albion's focus, but just to answer Alan's question:
I've been involved in the production of 10 CDs with three different labels now, three instrumental CDs, two chamber and the remaining five orchestral. This isn't the place for a treatise on the economics of the recording industry but I would say that, in my limited experience, three things drive the process: can the cost be mitigated by financial sponsorship or grants, who will the performers be and what is the quality of the music? The latter is especially critical when the composer is a total, or relative, unknown to the buying public, because obviously the label is taking more of a risk as there's no established market for the name. Then, because in all probability the performers won't be household names either, a label really does have to rely upon its own reputation to sell the recording, and so it's going to look very carefully at the quality of the music. That's the way Hyperion seem to work with some of their RPC series. Sometimes an enthusiastic sponsor funding the enterprise to promote the composer or performer will speak loudest, especially to a small label, but in my experience that isn't usually the case. The quality of the music is what counts.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 19 October 2011, 11:35
Alan wrote: QuoteHowever, the leading independent labels must think they have a sufficiently large and stable customer base to consider releasing as much unsung music as they do. Maybe Mark can enlighten us further?
......The quality of the music is what counts.
Well that sounds perfectly reasonable, Mark, and is based on your experience of CD production, so I can't argue with it. :) But, it does make me wonder how that judgement of quality is made, and what weight it carries, given that so much second rate music has appeared on CD, and so much of comparatively high quality has never made it, or has only recently been recorded. ???
The issues around this could easily be another thread. It seems to me that "unsung" is to some extent synonymous with "not available on CD", and therefore how decisions are made as to what goes on CD, are important to us. Just a thought! :)
Apologies for staying 'off subject'! ::)
Semloh wrote:
Quotewonder how that judgement of quality is made
At the risk of prolonging the digression, and apologies to John for doing so, I can only agree with you, Semloh. I suppose what I should have added was that, whilst labels
are I think generally very focussed on recording unsung works of quality, this does depend on there being someone in the organisation who has that good judgement. At least one of the larger labels gives their chosen conductor the final say. Another's A&R man has a proven track record, and awards to show for it. Many of the smaller labels are one man bands, of course, so they have no recourse to a second opinion. Plus, never underestimate the power of money. If someone comes along waving fistfulls of moolah and asking them to record some piece or other, you may be sure that it'll get recorded by someone, no matter how bad it is!
Thank goodness for Lewis Foreman then ;D
I have been told-on excellent authority from someone previously involved with making recordings ;D-that there is a British conductor (who, for obvious reasons, should remain nameless ;D) who claims-with some justification apparently- to be able to conduct anything, can learn the most complex score in no time at all and will do so if paid.
Quote from: Dundonnell on Wednesday 19 October 2011, 14:37
there is a British conductor ... who claims to be able to conduct anything, can learn the most complex score in no time at all and will do so if paid.
Just the one? :o
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 19 October 2011, 11:35I know that securing a recording of Gadsby's music isn't Albion's focus
(http://aluratek.com/cms/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/fireworks1.jpg)
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 19 October 2011, 13:43At the risk of prolonging the digression
(http://onlyinbridgeport.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/towel.jpg)
Quote from: Albion on Tuesday 18 October 2011, 22:53poor old Henry Gadsby
(http://i1203.photobucket.com/albums/bb393/albion22/tombstone2.jpg)
Apologies for resurrecting this entertaining and informative old thread but perhaps one nail has been removed from the coffin containing the remains of Gadsby's musical legacy as his orchestral scene "The Forest of Arden" has been posted to IMSLP in full score here: http://imslp.org/wiki/The Forest of Arden (Gadsby, Henry Robert) (http://imslp.org/wiki/The%20Forest%20of%20Arden%20(Gadsby,%20Henry%20Robert)).
Cypressdome
;D