As a foreigner, can anyone illuminate me on why Elder has a knighthood, along with Elton John, and Vernon Handley never received the honor? Or Hickox? How is the game played?
In short, there is no rhyme or reason to it, but generally 'lobbying' plays a key part (witness Ethel Smyth's battles in securing the title for Dan Godfrey) - certainly, Vernon Handley and Richard Hickox (by virtue of their stalwart and pioneering service to British music) should have been officially acknowledged with the conferring of knighthoods.
I have absolutely no problem with this 'reward' for achievement being given to either Mark Elder or Elton John (or Bruce Forsyth, for that matter). Perhaps Handley's and Hickox's absence from the rosta is a reflection on the (perceived) lowly status of much of the British music that they championed, coupled with a growing societal ignorance of what actually constitutes quality and commitment.
???
This must be false. There is only a single living Brit who hasn't been knighted: Tommy Wilson, an 8-year old from Salford who, by unfortunate coincidence, was playing hide&seek with friends when the Knight-dispensary lorry came by.
Consider the 20th century British composers(those born after, say, 1860) who were given a knighthood:
(O.M.=Order of Merit; C.H.=Companion of Honour. An O.M. is a very great honour indeed; there are only 24 members of the Order at any one time and it therefore, effectively, outranks a knighthood).
Sir Edward German
Sir Arthur Somervell
Sir Granville Bantock
Sir Henry Walford Davies(Master of the King's Music)
Sir John Blackwood McEwen (as Principal of the Royal Academy of Music)
Sir Hamilton Harty(also conductor)
Sir Arnold Bax (Master of the King's Music)
Sir George Dyson
Sir Arthur Bliss, C.H. (Master of the Queen's Music)
Sir Eugene Goossens (also conductor)
Sir William Walton, O.M.
Sir Lennox Berkeley
Sir Michael Tippett, O.M., C.H.
Dame Elizabeth Maconchy
Sir Andrzej Panufnik
Sir Malcolm Arnold
Sir Peter Maxwell Davies (Master of the Queen's Music)
Sir Harrison Birtwistle
Sir Richard Rodney Bennett
Sir John Tavener
Benjamin Britten was made a Life Peer as Lord Britten in 1976, a few months before he died. He had refused a knighthood but had accepted an O.M. and a C.H..
Ralph Vaughan Williams refused a knighthood but had an O.M.
Frederick Delius and Herbert Howells both had the C.H.
Composers with the lesser order of C.B.E.(Companion of the British Empire):
William Alwyn
John Linton Gardner
Alun Hoddinott
Gordon Jacob
Elisabeth Lutyens
James MacMillan
William Mathias
John McCabe
Robin Orr
Alan Rawsthorne
Edmund Rubbra
Thomas Wilson
and at the bottom of the pile-
Daniel Jones, O.B.E.
George Lloyd, O.B.E.
Arthur Butterworth, M.B.E.
You will note those British composers whose names do not appear in these lists :)
A word of caution though. We do know that Vaughan Williams and Britten refused knighthoods and that Robert Simpson refused a C.B.E. I suspect that Holst refused honours offered.
Whether the composers who are listed deserved the particular honours awarded I leave to others to judge-although it has always slightly puzzled me that Lennox Berkeley got a knighthood ahead of Alwyn, Rawsthorne and Rubbra.
Oh....and I profoundly apologise to those composers who received honours which I have failed to pick up on ;D
"...I have absolutely no problem with this 'reward' for achievement being given to either Mark Elder or Elton John (or Bruce Forsyth, for that matter)..."
Or Sir Alex Ferguson ;).
David
Sir George Clement Martin was of course nineteenth-century (just, as he was knighted in 1897 and lived on until 1916); but . . . how about Sir Edward Elgar (or am I missing something?) And it might be noted that Sir Henry Walford Davies was another one appointed Master of the King's Musick (in 1934).
I would not presume to attempt a complete list of nineteenth-century musical knights; no doubt there are hundreds, perhaps even thousands. But a random clutch I have most recently encountered are:
Sir Joseph Barnby
Sir John Goss
Sir Henry Bishop
Sir Augustus Harris
Sir Julius Benedict
Sir John Stainer
Sir George MacFarren
Sir Michael Costa
A worthwhile communal endeavour perhaps: to assemble a complete list of musical knights?
I think Elgar was omitted because he was born before the 1860 threshold suggested. But Elgar was surely the most decorated of all the composers: a knighthood, later promoted to a Baronetcy (something Parry also received), the OM, the GCVO, Master of the King's Music... have I missed anything? Of course Lady Elgar encouraged him to accept as many as possible. Jelka Delius said that 'Fritz would have refused a knighthood', but I don't know if he got the chance.
Quote from: Jimfin on Tuesday 20 December 2011, 05:39
I think Elgar was omitted because he was born before the 1860 threshold suggested. But Elgar was surely the most decorated of all the composers: a knighthood, later promoted to a Baronetcy (something Parry also received), the OM, the GCVO, Master of the King's Music... have I missed anything? Of course Lady Elgar encouraged him to accept as many as possible. Jelka Delius said that 'Fritz would have refused a knighthood', but I don't know if he got the chance.
Correct :)
Add-
Sir George Dyson
Dame Elizabeth Maconchy
Elisabeth Lutyens, CBE
Then there was Sir Frederick Arthur Gore (F.A.G.) Ouseley, probably the only musical knight who actually inherited his Baronetcy. I remember Parry being highly critical of some piece of his...perhaps it was St. Polycarp?
David
Quote from: edurban on Tuesday 20 December 2011, 14:58
Then there was Sir Frederick Arthur Gore (F.A.G.) Ouseley, probably the only musical knight who actually inherited his Baronetcy. I remember Parry being highly critical of some piece of his...perhaps it was St. Polycarp?
David
Sir Thomas Beecham inherited his Baronetcy too, I think.
Quote from: Lionel Harrsion on Tuesday 20 December 2011, 15:28Sir Thomas Beecham inherited his Baronetcy too, I think.
As did Gerald Tyrwhitt-Wilson, 14th Baron Berners, better known as Lord Berners (1883-1950).
:)
....and how could I forget-
Sir Granville Bantock :o
List now updated.
As far as Conductors are concerned:
Sir Landon Ronald
Sir Dan Godfrey
Sir Hamilton Harty
Sir Henry Wood, C.H.
Sir Thomas Beecham, C.H.
Sir Adrian Boult, C.H.
Sir Eugene Goossens(also composer)
Sir Malcolm Sargent
Sir John Barbirolli, C.H.
Sir Reginald Goodall
Sir Charles Groves
Sir John Pritchard
Sir Alexander Gibson
Sir David Willcocks (as Principal of the Royal College of Music)
Sir Neville Marriner
Sir Edward Downes
Sir Charles Mackerras, C.H.
Sir Colin Davis, C.H.
Sir Roger Norrington
Sir John Eliot Gardiner
Sir Richard Armstrong
Sir Andrew Davis
Sir Simon Rattle
Sir Mark Elder
and Sir George Solti(naturalised British)
Bernard Haitink has an honorary Knighthood and an honorary C.H. and Andre Previn has an honorary Knighthood: both are foreign citizens.
I am sure that had Richard Hickox lived longer he too would have been knighted. Vernon Handley is an obvious exclusion from the list, as is that very fine conductor Norman Del Mar.
(Again, apologies to anyone omitted ;D)
Many of us here in America are merely amused by this sort of thing.
Something called the "Presidential Medal of Honor" is the best we can do along these lines (though hardly analagous).
Few, however, could name a single recipient, - or would be very impressed by it in any case.
Such a triteness these titles are.
QuoteMany of us here in America are merely amused by this sort of thing.
Many of us here in the UK are amused by many things American, but we keep it to ourselves because we wouldn't want to cause offence.
The point in compiling these lists was to attempt to respond to Tapiola's original question by providing an idea of just which composers and conductors had been honoured and to what degree and which had not.
My point was not intended as either a defence or a condemnation of such an honours system per se. Personally, I have no great difficulty with persons distinguished in public life-in this case, music-being honoured by their country.
Obviously, different people will have alternative views and there will be those who, whilst accepting an honours system, will criticise the inclusion or the omission of certain composers and conductors.
I was simply trying to illustrate, for Tapiola, the way the system has worked.
If one then poses the question-who makes the decision or choice of an individual for a specific honour? that is a moot point. Clearly, as Albion said, there are recommendations from within the 'profession' or 'lobbying' to put it more bluntly. The former Prime Minister, Sir Edward Heath, took a great personal interest because he was himself an amateur musician and great music lover. The C.H. was awarded to Herbert Howells on Heath's recommendation and Sir William Walton was given an 70th birthday dinner at 10, Downing Street during Heath's premiership. There are clearly civil servants who scrutinise lists and an Honours Committee which vets suggestions.
The fact that Malcolm Arnold was, finally, knighted demonstrated his rehabilitation after years of neglect(in all senses of that word :()
Balfe was nominated for the Legion d'honeur in France, but King Louis Philippe refused him because he was foreign. However, he got it awarded later by Emperor Napoleon III. And talking of foreigners, or rather foreign-born, there was Sir Michael Costa and Sir George Henschel... Sir Andrzej Panufnik
We Americans have no right to criticize or amuse ourselves with anyone's traditions and respect for things old. We don't have any and are not likely ever to again. The few that we had have slowly disappreared over my lifetime.
Off music topic but an example. We are seldom satisfied with what we have. Here in Minnesota we've build three professional baseball stadiums in the last 50 years! The first one was torn down completely and the monumental Mall of America now stands in it's place. The second, the Metrodome domed statium I'm sure will disappear as soon as our professional football team convinces our legislature to build THEM a new home (projected to cost in excess of $1 Billion!) And of course, the new baseball stadium was a bargain at $534,000,000.
I'm sorry. I could rant and rave on and on. Hang on to your precious traditions and cathedrals and castles and other historic sites and ideas. And let us come and enhoy (and envy) them.
Jerry
Quote from: Jimfin on Wednesday 21 December 2011, 14:20
Balfe was nominated for the Legion d'honeur in France, but King Louis Philippe refused him because he was foreign. However, he got it awarded later by Emperor Napoleon III. And talking of foreigners, or rather foreign-born, there was Sir Michael Costa and Sir George Henschel... Sir Andrzej Panufnik
I have added Panufnik, since he falls within my original timeframe.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 21 December 2011, 07:37
QuoteMany of us here in America are merely amused by this sort of thing.
Many of us here in the UK are amused by many things American, but we keep it to ourselves because we wouldn't want to cause offence.
Implicit (I think) in the original poster's inquiry was a question of whether the tradition (or "game" as he put it) of conferring knighthood might have become compromised in it's meaning when pop icons like XXX (comment removed - Mark) achieve the honor while distinguished
musicians such as Handley & Hickox go unrecognized. Why should expressing such a suspicion (of which my own comments were an echo) cause offense, - even if we don't want to consider the issue here?
If I as an Englishman were to criticise the institutions of the USA, or ridicule them by saying that I find them amusing, then I'd expect to offend some US citizens. We have a strong tradition here at UC of respecting the feelings and sensibilities of others and I think that your first post was insensitive, albeit unintentionally for all I know. I'm afraid that the remark in your second post most definitely did cross the line by being potentially defamatory, which is why I have removed it.
I don't want to pursue this sterile issue, so lets please return to the main issue.
I'm 100% with Mark on this. The bottom line on this forum is civility...
I should perhaps also clarify that Yehudi Menuhin received an honorary knighthood whilst still an American citizen in 1965. When he took up British citizenship in 1985 his knighthood became substantive and he became entitled to be called "Sir Yehudi Menuhin".
Subsequently, in 1987 he was appointed to the Order of Merit and in 1993 was created Lord Menuhin. That makes him, along with Benjamin Britten, the only musician of whom I am aware created a Lord.
Clifford Curzon the pianist received a Knighthood and a number of honours have been awarded to vocalists, eg Dame Janet Baker.
The intricacies of the British Honours System are said to be difficult to understand both within Great Britain and abroad. I must say that I have never found it so :)
Complex, certainly.....but so many things in life are complicated. If one puts one's mind to it then it can be understood :)
Whether composers will, in the future, be honoured to the same extent as in the past is another moot point. The days when a British Prime Minister would happily 'own up' to reading the novels of Anthony Trollope(Harold Macmillan) are probably over. Some of our American members have recently lamented what they perceive to be the erosion of cultural standards in education and public life in the USA. Sadly, to. perhaps, only a lesser extent, the same is true in many other countries. It is regarded as "more cool" to proclaim a love of popular music and currently admired popular music icons than to be seen to be "culturally elitist". Edward Heath was the last Prime Minister of the United Kingdom who appears to have had any real love of classical music.
However...I am straying into another topic and other threads ;D
Quote from: Dundonnell on Wednesday 21 December 2011, 19:32
Edward Heath was the last Prime Minister of the United Kingdom who appears to have had any real love of classical music.
..since when we have been ruled by a kind of proctocracy. ;)
Knighthoods are by no means confined to the UK, and nor is the UK the only country to signify a knighthood with a title before the person's name. But I'm sure Colin's intention was to stick to the UK, so...
I think we may have missed
Sir Arthur Sullivan
Sir Frederic Cowen
Sir Eugene Goossens
Sir Hamilton Harty (mentioned as conductor only!)
Sir John Tavener
Sir Alexander Mackenzie
Sir William Wallace
As to the deservedness of such honours, who knows? I am certainly amazed, as others are, that some people have been overlooked (notably Vernon Handley), when certain others (who must remain nameless!) seem to have been unduly rewarded. :o
And, don't you think the lists perhaps also reflects the increased status of conductors over composers?
???
And here's another gentleman: Sir Edward Bairstow, organist, composer and conductor, 1874 to 1946. He was knighted in 1932, and was the author of Counterpoint and Harmony (1937) and The Evolution of Musical Form (1943). A few of his compositions are listed in Grove's Dictionary.
My original post was, quite deliberately, limited to a cut-off point for composers born after 1860 ;D
That was why Sullivan, Cowen(also, of course, a prominent conductor) and Mackenzie were not included.
It would certainly be nice if a similar, perhaps combined, list was produced incorporating composers born before 1860. :)
William Wallace, the composer, as opposed to Sir William Wallace, the Scottish patriotic rebel (and hero of that dreadful film "Braveheart") was never knighted.
Bairstow was knighted as an organist, I would feel, rather than as a composer :)
Yes, indeed..I did omit Sir Hamilton Harty and Sir Eugene Goossens(partly, I suspect, because of their dual status as composers and conductors) and Sir John Tavener. I shall amend the list appropriately.
One or two more: Sir Arthur Somervell (1863 to 1937), knighted in 1929. And . . . perhaps! . . . Sir Noël Coward (1899 to 1973), knighted in 1970.
A lot of these knighthoods happened because the recipients performed before royalty, I think.
I will let Somervell in............but not Coward ;D
Somervell was knighted for his work as Principal Inspector of Music for the Board of Education.
We now need to add Sir Antonio Pappano to the list of conductors who have received Knighthoods.
Pappano, the Music Director of the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden and of the Santa Cecilia Orchestra in Rome, is of Italian parentage but was born in Britain and has British citizenship.
I'd say Pappano's knighthood was well deserved.
I watched his blazing Covent Garden performance of Tosca with Terfel, Kaufmann and Gheorghiu on BBC over the Christmas break - fabulous. He richly deserved the recognition.
I am eager to listen Pappano and Santa Cecilia Orch. performing Elgar First Symphony in my city next January, 22th.
Quote from: alberto on Saturday 31 December 2011, 14:25
I am eager to listen Pappano and Santa Cecilia Orch. performing Elgar First Symphony in my city next January, 22th.
Now that
will be worth listening to...
My original post was about the rhyme or reason people are chosen. It seems the answer is, there is no rhyme or reason! Either way, any honors denied to Handley and Hickox is a shame.
Don't forget that some people are offered an honour and decline it. That said, having been involved in a previous life in proposing people in my industry for honours, it certainly is something of a lottery.
Quote from: Tapiola on Sunday 01 January 2012, 00:28
My original post was about the rhyme or reason people are chosen. It seems the answer is, there is no rhyme or reason! Either way, any honors denied to Handley and Hickox is a shame.
As I remarked earlier, had Hickox lived he would almost certainly have been offered a knighthood before too much later.
Handley had his devoted admirers. It is. only fair, to add that he also had some detractors :(
Handley, detractors????
It does seem indicative of the general indifference of the establishment (now we have a pop-listening Prime Minister) to native music, that none of the recent conductors who have promoted British music have been knighted: Handley, Thomson, Llloyd-Jones, Yates, Brabbins, Hickox... The last one I can think of is Sir Edward Downes
In the unlikely event of my being offered a knighthood I'm afraid I'd have to decline it, as I wouldn't be able to afford the suit of armour to go with it.
Quote from: John H White on Tuesday 03 January 2012, 16:12In the unlikely event of my being offered a knighthood I'm afraid I'd have to decline it
The thought that an octogenarian would be wielding a sword in the region of one's jugular ...
:o
... might also possibly be a reason to pretend that the invitation somehow got 'lost in the post'.
;D
Quote from: John H White on Tuesday 03 January 2012, 16:12
In the unlikely event of my being offered a knighthood I'm afraid I'd have to decline it, as I wouldn't be able to afford the suit of armour to go with it.
I would, too, though not for that reason.
I happen also to know someone who was awarded a CBE but heard about it second hand rather than receiving the due notification; embarrassing, though for who the most it's hard to say...
Quoteawarded a CBE but heard about it second hand
I can't imagine how that could happen. Potential recipients receive a letter several months beforehand and must confirm their acceptance in writing. No reply - no honour.
Quote from: Tapiola on Tuesday 03 January 2012, 03:19
Handley, detractors????
There were those-I am not saying that I agree with them of course-who believed that in non-British repertoire Handley was no more than routine: steady, solid, reliable but no more than that.
Although he did a tremendous job in promoting British music and orchestras generally liked him because he was courteous, friendly and efficient he was, latterly, unpopular with orchestra managements because his uncertain health led to him cancelling a number of engagements at short notice.
His set of the Robert Simpson symphonies-much acclaimed though it was by Simpson-lovers and many critics-did not meet with the composer's own universal approval. Some of the symphonies were very well done but Simpson was disappointed with some of the others.
Handley's admirers-and I certainly was one-held him in enormous esteem but the 'professional musical inner circle' were less convinced. (There is another conductor in Jimfin's list of whom much the same could be said :()
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Tuesday 03 January 2012, 19:37
Quoteawarded a CBE but heard about it second hand
I can't imagine how that could happen. Potential recipients receive a letter several months beforehand and must confirm their acceptance in writing. No reply - no honour.
Unless he wasn't in the country when the letter arrived, and his significant other responded for him!
Thank you Dundonnell. I think any trained monkey can do the German and Russian war horses. Careerists all. I have no repect for any musician who succumbbs to the almight pound/dollar. Handley was one of a kind and will always be revered and adored my me, as will Hickox.
I second the adoration. I cannot really judge what Handley might have been like with non-British works, as I haven't heard him perform any, but it seems unlikely that he suddenly lost his marvellous ability to conduct, as seen, for example, in his Bax symphonic cycle, as soon as a composer with a different passport appeared: it seems utterly illogical. Far more likely, this is just another example of the kind of prejudice hurled against British music: that it is all a little bit staid and square, lacking in any real invention. Utterly untrue, but I think we have all seen it, and it still goes on. The latest being the absurd claim description of the Gothic as "a second-rate piece of music" in the latest "Gramophone", which has persuaded me to stop taking that magazine.
From among the A's, two more knights for consideration:
1) Sir Walter Alcock, "organist and composer," born at Edenbridge, Kent, in 1861; knighted in 1933;
2) and Sir Ivor Atkins, "composer and organist," born at Cardiff in 1869. His compositions include the cantata "Hymn of Faith," the libretto to which was arranged by Sir Edward Elgar, and he was knighted in 1921.
I recently discovered that Sir Julius Benedict was not only knighted by Queen Victoria as a naturalised Briton, but received knighthoods in Austria and Wurttemburg.