Following the acquisition of a German radio performance of Gernsheim's Piano Concerto in C minor of 1868, I am going to hazard a guess that - were it ever to be commercially recorded - it will become a firm favourite. It is a most winning and tuneful work, wonderfully written for the piano, but also with real symphonic 'muscle'. Indeed, it feels like another missing link between, say, Schumann and Brahms - and it confirms the composer's growing reputation as a master. His stature overall seems to me at least comparable with someone such as Max Bruch.
But to return to the PC, this is real Hyperion territory, I would have thought. Of course, it may well be that cpo have snapped up the radio performance, but who knows...?
I can envisage a CD with the mouthwatering combination of the Gernsheim Concerto coupled with the Volkmann Concertstuck.
At the moment, it is just a dream.
Thal
Even more mouthwatering would be a coupling of the PCs of Gernsheim and Rufinatscha...
I'd say that the Piano Concerto, which is a early work for Gernsheim of course, shows him at his most genial and tuneful. It also has some really "big" moments. I was reminded of the Grieg, myself...
Having just signed up to this forum, I am afraid I am going to turn commercial straightaway -- but with news of which I hope others here will approve (and which Alan Howe has known for ages): that I have a recording of the two Gernsheim Piano Quintets nearly ready to run; it will be released early in the spring. You can see the cover here: www.toccataclassics.com/inpreparation.php (http://www.toccataclassics.com/inpreparation.php) (scroll down), and it will soon have a page of its own where you will be able to listen to the incipits of each movement.
Cheers
Martin Anderson
Toccata Classics
It's good to welcome you, Martin. And thanks for revealing details of this forthcoming release which should knock a few people's socks off! Or, hopefully, many people's socks off!!
Quote from: Martin Anderson on Friday 27 November 2009, 16:12
Having just signed up to this forum, I am afraid I am going to turn commercial straightaway -- but with news of which I hope others here will approve (and which Alan Howe has known for ages): that I have a recording of the two Gernsheim Piano Quintets nearly ready to run; it will be released early in the spring. You can see the cover here: www.toccataclassics.com/inpreparation.php (http://www.toccataclassics.com/inpreparation.php) (scroll down), and it will soon have a page of its own where you will be able to listen to the incipits of each movement.
Cheers
Martin Anderson
Toccata Classics
Mr Anderson: What, may one ask, is the timeline for the release of some of the other CDs shown on your "In Preparation" page? For instance, the Sinigaglia and Lavista discs....
Welcome Martin, and very welcome news aout the Piano Quintets.
Hi all
Especially Martin Anderson. Welcome indeed! The Gernsheim and Thieriot discs are mouth watering, to say the least.
Sadly, after examining your 'in preparation' page, I then made the fatal mistake of examining the list of your other releases. I will be paying Toccata a visit in about two weeks. And I mean paying. My poor credit card...if it had feelings, it would tremble whenever yours truly thinks about music.
A happy thought now. Toccata, like certain other very independent labels, is bringing forth a goodly number of forgotten Romantic Era master works. Various folk on the previous Raff Forums noted the trend and had high hopes for possible results. Another 'positive' can now be chalked up.
regards
Peter
Thank you, everyone, for such a warm welcome. To answer your questions first, the Thieriot, Gernsheim and Lavista CDs will all be out in the spring: the first two are ready to roll already, as is Vol. 1 of August Stradal's solo-piano transcriptions of the Liszt symphonic poems. Indeed, I will shortly be sending out a newsletter to members of the Discovery Club to advise them that they can get hold of the Thieriot and a new Schnittke CD before they come onto the market. (Forgive another mercenary plug, but this is a difficult row to hoe, so put it down to a survival instinct.) I'm hoping the Discovery Club will appeal to many people here. Basically, £20 a year brings you two free CDs to start with (or a free Toccata Press book) and £5 off CDs and 25% off books and downloads for the next year; more details at www.toccataclassics.com/discoveryclub.php.
Now, back to the catalogue in preparation for spring and early summer. One or two pieces on the Sinigaglia CD had to be retaken, but that was done last week, so now it's a question of waiting for the edit. The Jadassohn Piano Trios Nos. 1–3 are being prepared for a spring 2010 launch, as is Vol. 1 of the complete David Matthews string quartets (a Beethoven de nos jours!). I was listening to the near-final edit of the Ashton piano music Vol. 1 the other day and marvelling at home good the music is. Also in final or near-final edits: the first CD of orchestral pieces by Havergal Brian, chamber music by Buxton Orr, Reinhard Oppel piano music Vol. 1, the remaining two volumes of the complete Rameau keyboard music on the piano, Peeter Süda organ music, and more instalments of Telemann's Harmonischer Gottes-Dienst cantatas. And there might be one or two more I've forgotten. And there are quite a few Toccata Press books in preparation, too!
Cheers
Martin
Hi All, especially Martin.
This really is great news - I am especially interested in the Stradal / Liszt transcriptions as I have been playing them on and off for several years (still can't get the score of Tasso though...) so would like to hear how they should go!
As for the other recordings, I shall certainly have to get a better paid job!!
Quote from: Jonathan on Saturday 28 November 2009, 16:40
This really is great news - I am especially interested in the Stradal / Liszt transcriptions as I have been playing them on and off for several years (still can't get the score of Tasso though...) so would like to hear how they should go!
I have been collecting Stradal scores for yonks and have a paper copy of this somewhere, but cannot find it at the moment. I got it from Glasgow University Library who have an excellent document supply service. Edinburgh University Library have a very good collection of Stradal scores.
I am very much looking forward to this disc as i have only ever heard one recording of Stradal before. His transcriptions would probably fill 30 disks.
My pianistic skills are week, but i did have a bash at his transcriptions of Bach's Brandenburg Concerto No.3 and Strauss Roses of the South.
Thal
Back to Gernsheim's PC. I'm very longing to hear this work and I'm sure it must be delightful. I can only hope we don't have to wait too long for a CD.
I've become very fond of Gernsheim's music and especially his Piano Quartets are very dear to me. So therefore I eagerly look forward to the release of his Piano Quintets, Martin! Excellent news!
Quote from: thalbergmad on Saturday 28 November 2009, 20:08
Edinburgh University Library have a very good collection of Stradal scores.
Thal
Thanks for that Thalbermad! If I visit Edinburgh again (and we are planning to in the next couple of years), I shall certainly have to look!
Scores of Gernsheim's Violin Concerto in D, op. 42, and Symphony 2, op. 46, have recently become available on IMSLP.
http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_Violin_and_Orchestra,_Op.42_%28Gernsheim,_Friedrich%29 (http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_for_Violin_and_Orchestra,_Op.42_%28Gernsheim,_Friedrich%29)
http://imslp.org/wiki/File:PMLP114660-Gernsheim_-_Symphony_No_2_in_Eb_Op_46.pdf (http://imslp.org/wiki/File:PMLP114660-Gernsheim_-_Symphony_No_2_in_Eb_Op_46.pdf)
The chances for a recording of the concerto have increased at least slightly, I hope.
I just listened to the sound samples of the piano quintets on Toccata's website, and Holy Cow! Fantastic pieces, surging Romanticism at its finest. I have to go order them now...
David
They are indeed great works. Every bit as good as anything by Brahms.
The score to Gernsheim's Symphony 4 has recently become available on IMSLP:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.4,_Op.62_%28Gernsheim,_Friedrich%29 (http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.4,_Op.62_%28Gernsheim,_Friedrich%29)
What an amazing trio of truly grandiose concertos: Bortkiewicz's wonderful violin concerto as a starter, Gernsheim's gorgeous piano concerto as the main course, and Cliffe's astonishing violin concerto as the best possible dessert.
Last evening I had an almost an esoteric listening experience of one and an half hour.
A set of three, still unrecorded... Suppose some executive producers are spotting our Forum, reading our enthusiastic posts, thinking what a challange the recording of these winning masterpieces would be, finding and motivating the best possible orchestra's and soloists, seeing the commercial advantages, and afterwards reading our posts, praising their labels and new releases...
Let's cross our fingers...
Is the radio recording of the Gernsheim concerto the February 2008 (editing in, sorry) recording made by Oliver Triendl? Of curiosity...
Eric
Yes, Eric, it is!
On cpo forthcoming.
http://hermannbaeumer.com/en/node/18235 (http://hermannbaeumer.com/en/node/18235)
with the overture Zu einem Drama. Taped mid-2017.
The cellist is the same fellow who recorded it on a SWR radio broadcast years ago (Hülshoff).
Thanks, Eric, this news is really how to start the day! Of course, one has to remember the length of cpo's pipeline....
That's a truly heroic spot, Eric! Thank you!
To be honest, I'm most thrilled to hear a new rendition of Zu einem Drama, something of an anomaly in Gernsheim's work which I love dearly.
Great news. I' m very fond of Gernsheim's PC...surely the best of his concertos. I hope to live long enough to own the disc. In the meantime, there is always Triendl's YouTube recording, of course.
Yes, Zu einem Drama is a superb, compact, late Gernsheim concert overture that I like even more than his symphonies. Looking forward to this disc of his concertos.
The cello concerto is already available on Hyperion, of course, but it will be such a relief to have the piano concerto on a quality CD rather than YT.
I was surprised to see the cpo recording of the Gernsheim pc (Oliver Triendl/Philharmonisches Staatsorcherster Mainz/Hermann Bäumer) posted on youtube. I guess it has been or will be released. Also included is the Cello Concerto and Zu einem Drama.
Great news!
Here are the contents of the CD on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PT4yZFXE5OA&list=OLAK5uy_nmA34qkFU7cBnlIptIH7i701NEKme1vRg
It'll probably be announced for sale at jpc within a week or two.
Can't understand why the PC isn't in the standard repertoire...
Oh, neat!!
Neat indeed!
Alan, your introduction some 15 years back was spot on. I absolutely love it.
I was ,up until now, thinking that the Venetian Ambassador's remark "If Death came from Spain, we would live for ever" was only too apposite when it came to this recording.
So,it is all the more welcome that cpo have finally managed to outrun my expectation that I would never live to see the fruits of Triendl's labour.
I've taken some time today listening to this recording. I remember that a few years ago Gernsheim's piano concerto, Urspruch's concerto and the one by Rufinatscha became available in the same week, either through a commercial release or on Youtube. Back then I felt that the Rufinatscha was something of a disappointment, but the Gernsheim and particularly the Urspruch were very good works indeed. Thankfully, this release of the Gernsheim is even better than the one that appeared on Youtube back then (which also featured Oliver Triendl, but with the Nürnberger Symphoniker conducted by Radislaw Szulc). Triendl is as reliable as ever, but the Philharmonisches Staatsorchester Mainz seems to be more engaged than the Nürnbergers, and the sound is also better. It's a gorgeous piece, even if it's not quite of the same level and personality as Gernsheim's mature works.
The two other pieces on the CD are known from earlier recordings and here the results are more mixed. Hülshoff and Bäumer's approach to the cello concerto is quite different from Gerhardt and Lintu's. While the latter emphasized the rhapsodic, Konzertstück-like aspect of the piece, the former seem to approach it more like a "true" concerto, giving a definite lyrical treatment. I'm not sure yet which I like more, but it's good to have two somewhat contrasting visions of the piece regardless.
For me, Zu einem Drama is Gernsheim's orchestral masterpiece, but unfortunately this is where I feel Bäumer lets us down somewhat. His version is almost two minutes slower than the older Arp recording and it's difficult to justify that extra time. The problem is mainly one of articulation, and the sonics don't help: at times the playing feels labored by comparison, and the more dynamic passages can get outright mushy. Compare Bäumer (5:10) to Arp (4:43), for instance.
By the way, Zu einem Drama is divided into three parts here; no doubt a consequence of Youtube's, Spotify's and others' renumberation per individual stream. Be prepared to see future releases get divided into micro-sections.
Quote from: Ilja on Friday 22 November 2024, 18:45I remember that a few years ago Gernsheim's piano concerto, Urspruch's concerto and the one by Rufinatscha became available in the same week, either through a commercial release or on Youtube. Back then I felt that the Rufinatscha was something of a disappointment, but the Gernsheim and particularly the Urspruch were very good works indeed.
The YT uploads of Gernsheim and Rufinatscha PCs somehow made me memorize them in pairs. In reverse I preferred the Rufinatscha PC for its better thematic material (the recording is done on a historical piano, unfortunately), and the opening of Gernsheim's struck me as uninspired and I didn't come back to it for a long time (though I did listen to the end that time). Only after listening to this recording did I find the Gernsheim PC moderately worthy.
I agree that the Urspruch PC is great though the first movement is overtly long.
It's also a rather early Gernsheim work (not to suggest that I don't want to hear even earlier works like the I believe as yet unperformed E-flat symphony...)
Quote from: eschiss1 on Saturday 23 November 2024, 02:36It's also a rather early Gernsheim work
Well, yes - but he was thirty-ish when he wrote it, so it's a fully mature work.
It seems to me that Gernsheim was one of those people who flourish in isolation rather than among company. In 1874 he became the director of the Rotterdam Musical Society and the Rotterdam Conservatory. At the time Rotterdam was a bit of a musical backwater even by Dutch standards, and with Gernsheim's tasks being relatively light, this left him much more time to compose than before. During his sixteen years in Rotterdam we see him write two and a half symphonies, a violin concerto, and countless chamber and choral works, and mature his style considerably. A work like the 3rd Symphony shows a much more confident composer than the piano concerto; it also sounds much more Brahmsian. During his Rotterdam tenure, Gernsheim kept up a steady correspondence with Brahms, Dietrich and others, but he also attended far fewer concerts (Amsterdam was really the only venue of significance within a day's travel), which might have caused a more focused development (although this is pure speculation on my part). Combined, this might explain why the concerto doesn't really sound all that much like later Gernsheim.
Thanks, Ilja. That's a perceptive analysis. Might we talk of a progression from a Mendelssohnian/Schumannesque idiom to a more Brahmsian style, filtered through his own creative inspiration?
I was comparing a symphony from the end of his teen years (1857, so perhaps composed during his years in Paris) to a concerto whose manuscript (also held at Tel Aviv) seems to be dated 1869 (same year as first publication) (so, ca.30 years indeed) during his years in Cologne. My mistake there, wasn't thinking...
No problem, Eric. There's no doubt that the PC is in the style of Gernsheim's early maturity.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Sunday 24 November 2024, 14:26Thanks, Ilja. That's a perceptive analysis. Might we talk of a progression from a Mendelssohnian/Schumannesque idiom to a more Brahmsian style, filtered through his own creative inspiration?
Yes, I think that sums it up pretty well – with the addendum that Gernsheim moved to a more personal, post-Brahmsian style in the final stage of his life, as illustrated by
Zu einem Drama.
Yes, that's an interesting point. It's post-Brahmsian, but still basically classical-romantic rather than 'neudeutsch', if you know what I'm getting at.
Yes. I hear some interesting overlaps between late Gernsheim (b. 1839) and the generation of Felix Woyrsch (particularly) and Fritz Volbach (both born around 1860).
There must be continuities between these different generations, especially with those of a more conservative turn of mind. However, take Woyrsch, for example, and one realises how far he moves beyond Gernsheim/Thieriot after his 1st Symphony through greater use of chromaticism. The same is true of Fritz Brun.
Here's the download for sale:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9743927--friedrich-gernsheim-piano-concerto-op-16-cello-concerto-op-78-zu-einem-drama-op-82
No doubt the CD will soon follow...
Advertised here as a January 1st CD release:
https://www.clicmusique.com/friedrich-gernsheim-concertos-pour-piano-pour-violoncelle-einem-drama-triendl-hulshoff-baumer-p-112867.html?osCsid=3u754esm3i3q15rmknjlm3e5t4
...although the CD has in fact now been released by jpc:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/friedrich-gernsheim-klavierkonzert/hnum/6142540
My copy of this superlative recording has now arrived and more than ever I am astonished at the neglect of Gernsheim's Piano Concerto which has truly memorable themes throughout. Oliver Triendl's performance has all the virtuosity required and the orchestral support here is outstanding. The work could have been a jewel in Hyperion's RPC crown, but instead cpo are to be congratulated on a magnificent release. With the generous coupling of Gernsheim's late masterpiece Zu einem Drama and his equally late and taut Cello Concerto, this is an unmissable release.
Why Zu einem Drama isn't played often in concerts I haven't a clue. This is truly great music - isn't it?
Well, now I have to try to hear it. When I first got interested in Gernsheim the only recording I could find was the Genesis LP with the first of the cello sonatas. I've heard the other two works on this disc (one of them possibly in the Hyperion recording of cello concertos, broadcast on radio or somehow I think at some point- but also in an appreciated private tape/CD that I received as a present decades ago; less sure if I've heard the piano concerto though I see that I have our old upload of it...), but I haven't heard the abridged recording of Zu einem Drama released awhile back- and this sounds like a disc to at least stream and then maybe get.
(Re Gernsheim: my interest probably stems from William Newman's entry on him in "The Sonata Since Beethoven", and then from having a look at various published and at the time mostly unrecorded scores at NYPL...)
Quote from: Alan Howe on Thursday 19 December 2024, 19:22Why Zu einem Drama isn't played often in concerts I haven't a clue. This is truly great music - isn't it?
Certainly. Unfortunately it doesn't really fit in to modern concert programmes: too long for the opener, too short for the main fare of the evening; the same reason why the Konzertstück has all but disappeared.
I know what you mean. Do they still programme, say, Strauss' Don Juan or Tchaikovsky's Romeo & Juliet, i.e. pieces of a similar length?
I see some performances of Romeo and Juliet on Bachtrack, but predominantly in Tchaikovsky-themed evenings or to make up for a shorter concerto. Same with Don Juan. It doesn't seem to happen often though. However, as there seems to be a move away from the typical concerto "sandwich" (overture-concerto-/interlude/-Symphony) I have some hope that pieces such as this may get another chance.
To return to the Piano Concerto, I'd say that this is not only a magnificent work, but that the CD features a magnificent recording of it. Oliver Triendl surpasses himself in virtuosity and feeling for the idiom and Hermann Bäumer produces really strong results from the Philharmonisches Staatsorchester Mainz; the recording quality is also top-notch: clear and full-bodied with plenty of punch.
Now let's hope the recording gets its due from UK reviewers.
I agree that the piano concerto is a fine piece and this is a splendid recording of it. The 'cello concerto, though, surely benefits from the faster speeds that Alban Gerhardt adopts on the Hyperion disc. I'm not sure that I would describe it as a "taut" work but Gerhardt's performance makes it sound so and is more compelling.
I must make some comparisons myself - thanks for the tip.
Hyperion: 5:24/3:12/5:13 >>> TT:13:49
cpo: 6:40/4:25/6:26 >>> TT:17:31
In short: two different conceptions of the same work.
OTOH, Triendl's recording of the piano concerto with Baumer on cpo (11:29/9:36/7:06) is slower in each movement than his own conception of the work with Szulc (10:57/8:54/6:41). (When you wrote that Triendl surpasses himself, I'm guessing you literally meant that, of course...)
Thomas Blees' recording of the cello concerto, at 16:14 length (I think? that may include some applause, will check) comes in between the Hyperion and cpo of course...
Quote from: eschiss1 on Sunday 05 January 2025, 19:16When you wrote that Triendl surpasses himself, I'm guessing you literally meant that, of course..
I'm assuming that is friendly sarcasm ;).
So, was it Triendl or Bäumer who was responsible for the more expansive performance on cpo? Answer: we don't really know. Perhaps it was a joint decision. All I know is that it works in the PC - magnificently. And the fact that everything on the new CD is slower than other recorded performances of the same pieces leads me to suspect that the instigator was in fact the conductor.
No, no, it was an honest question, when I noticed that the two recordings of the piano concerto both had Triendl... so if he was better in the more recent one, he was surpassing himself... probably together with the conductor and orchestra, imho (some pianists learn their concertos without collaborating with the orchestra, at least one once told me (can't remember who or when now), but I have always found that difficult to believe)
All I can add is that this new performance of the PC has the potential to put Gernsheim more fully in the public eye. It's that good.
Kudos to cpo and all involved, then!
This weighty and thoughtful piano concerto is a masterpiece,in my opinion. Does anyone else agree?
Absolutely. 100%.
Apologies for being a contrarian voice here, but I don't think this is prime Gernsheim. It is an excellent concerto containing beautiful music, don't get me wrong, but it also lacks the sophistication we see in his later works, particularly the last two symphonies, Zu einem Drama, and the B minor piano quartet. I mean this in terms of both instrumentation as composition. In a sense, I think the work is just a bit too formally unexceptional to lay claim to a term as lofty as "masterpiece".
It's fine to disagree, of course. I'd simply say that the PC is the masterpiece of Gernsheim's early maturity.
By the way, I note that the timpani are very well recorded here - it makes a big difference.
A spectacular recording and brilliant pianism but, for me, not a great masterpiece. But I've only listened a couple of times, and I respect the more positive opinions expressed here, so maybe increased familiarity will lead to a better appreciation.
And I respect your view, Colin. I'm probably overestimating the PC's stature. My problem: I can't get the piece out of my head - it's so memorable...
I said that I thought this is a masterpiece, and I stand by my opinion. I think it deserves a chance in the concert-hall.
But I did not reach that opinion overnight. The first time I played the concerto I was possibly as tepid as Ilya!
But Alan's advocacy persuaded me to persevere. It was on about the fourth or fifth time I played it that I began to say to myself: this is not a poor man's Brahms, but something of stature;moving,profound.
I have now listened to it about twenty times. I think my persistence has been well-rewarded.
As I said before, I'm tempted to agree - and this recording certainly does it justice.
Quote from: terry martyn on Saturday 11 January 2025, 11:56I said that I thought this is a masterpiece, and I stand by my opinion. I think it deserves a chance in the concert-hall.
For me, the bar for "deserves a place in the concert hall" is a fair bit lower than the one for declaring something a masterpiece (i.e, a work of a quality that knows few if any rivals in its category). This concerto absolutely deserves the former epithet, but I'm not sure about the latter.
That's probably true, but I really rate the work. It's so memorable.
It's worth encountering wonderful works that meet the lower standard, they are not -that- thick on the ground. And even the (even) more subjective standard of being (happily, I mean) persistently earwormish (several unsung works , ones which have been criticized as unmemorable or worse, have had very substantial sections run through my head- and still do even now that I know what they are...)
Coming back to this recording after a few weeks, it seems to me that what the Triendl/Bäumer partnership has done is to position Gernsheim's PC half-way between Schumann and Brahms. A very clever move, in my view, and one which vindicates the work as the masterpiece of his early maturity. In other words, it's more than Schumann, but not quite Brahms.
The MusicWeb site has been challenging for some of us to access recently, but I have just seen a very warm recommendation in a review posted this week by Mr Welsh.
Here's a link to the review - thanks, terry:
https://musicwebinternational.com/2025/07/gernsheim-piano-concerto-cello-concerto-cpo/
Just the sort of recommendation that the CD deserves!
Thank you Alan - I may know the writer... ;D
Thanks are due to the 'writer you might know' for such a splendid review. ;)
Jonathan, like myself, failed to understand why the Piano Concerto isn't a repertoire staple. Gernsheim's Second Symphony is another work of this composer that I would put into that category.
Which has left me musing: there are very many compositions that we, as individuals, would ,in an ideal world,like to hear in the concert-hall. But far fewer which most of us would agree on are such strong contenders that it is a mystery that they are not heard,and not heard regularly. (I would put a number of Raff's symphonies into that category,maybe a couple or so of Brull's compositions, the Bortkiewicz First....)
Thank you both! It was an absolute pleasure to get to know the works on the disc. :)
On the Kauffmann thread, Ilya has just categorised Gernsheim alongside that composer and also alongside Grimm as composers working in a backwater and,thereby, fallen into obscurity
I am going to stick my neck out a long way here when I say that I believe that Gernsheim could mount a recovery and obtain, a bit like Volkmann, a toehold in the repertoire. Certainly, CD recordings of his works are starting to proliferate, which might be a harbinger of better times ahead.
{EDIT} Scrolling down through the last 10 pages on this part of the site, only topics on Raff and Lachner appear to have had more viewings. Another straw in the wind,perhaps?
Marketing-wise, Gernsheim is tricky. On the one hand his work is of a very high standard indeed; stylistically, however, he is fairly conventional. And in a market that rates artistic innovation above anything else that makes it difficult to make a viable case for his resurrection. A real shame, but also a reality.
Quote from: Ilja on Wednesday 09 July 2025, 17:55in a market that rates artistic innovation above anything else
Well, while you have a point, it's not entirely the case otherwise Bruch's VC1 wouldn't have reached such dizzy heights among ordinary music lovers. Why couldn't Gernsheim's PC, which we have been longing to have a recording of for decades and is chock-full of memorable tunes, make a similar splash?
I think that case is a bit different since it was popular since day one, so much so that even Bruch complained about it (or rather, how it dominated the perception of his entire body of work). A performance tradition of more than a century is an important advantage. However, I'm convinced that if someone were to resurrect a forgotten Bruch VC1 nowadays they would probably not succeed. Which is perhaps proven by the lack of success of Bruch's other two concertos, both of which I'd rate over the first on purely musical merit.
You're correct, of course, as to the popular history of Bruch's VC1; I was simply making the point that artistic innovation needn't be the sole criterion necessary for the popularity of a piece of music. Good music can and should be its own raison d'être.
What about Korngold's VC which was buried by the critics as trash for years? Now it's as popular, seemingly, as any other mainstream VC and just as marketable.
I don't think the critics matter all that much. They trashed Rachmaninoff as well, and he never left the limelight. Moreover, the Korngold VC's success didn't come out of thin air; it was pushed by none other than the very influential Jascha Heifetz, and the composer was both stylistically (because of the link to film music) and biographically (as someone fleeing nazi persecution to find success abroad) interesting.
Anyone trying to get "just" a good piece enter the concert halls on musical merit alone is facing an impossible battle. Particularly if the composer's identity (specifically gender, ethnicity an sexual orientation) is not currently "attractive" in terms of marketing.
Having said that, why do we even care? Concert audiences are often only tangentially interested in the music anyway, so I never understand why they should be the golden standard of repertory innovation. Meanwhile I'm privately cheering for every recording of an unsung work that I get the chance of hearing.
Quote from: Ilja on Wednesday 09 July 2025, 20:59They trashed Rachmaninoff as well, and he never left the limelight.
Korngold's VC, however, was almost completely forgotten post-Heifetz, despite his recording. Its rediscovery has been nothing short of astounding.
Bruckner 6 has gone from being a barely-known problem child 50 years ago to more than 100 recordings today and an honoured place in the concert hall.
Anyway, back to the Gernsheim CD...
It's a work that amply repays repeated listening - even with half the year left,I reckon that this might turn out to be my favourite this year
And Jonathan's review brings added insight to this deeply convincing work
Actually, I think you've hit on it for the opposite reason: the market rates the absence of innovation - even a new name is tricky. Whether their music is "stylistically" original, to use that word Schoenberg rightly choked on, is a point one rarely gets to when people see the name and think "I don't recognize this and haven't heard this, it's probably one of those Modern composers like Arnold Bax."
Quote from: eschiss1 on Thursday 10 July 2025, 01:00one of those Modern composers like Arnold Bax
;D ;D Sounds like me when I was in my 20s!
Quote from: eschiss1 on Thursday 10 July 2025, 01:00Actually, I think you've hit on it for the opposite reason: the market rates the absence of innovation - even a new name is tricky.
Well, yes and no. Audiences are often arch-conservative and so are concert programmes
until anything new needs to be introduced. Then, other metrics enter the equation - in western Europe mostly ones that will give you a grant from the local/regional/national arts council. That's why I'm not optimistic about introducing any new romantic voices into the concert repertoire. We'll have to make do with an incidental performance here and there.
Can't say I entirely disagree,Ilya.
But,like a lot of other areas, sometimes it's not what you know,but who you know.
If a conductor of the punching-power of a Beecham (who almost single-handedly kept Rustic Wedding going for so long), or a pianist of the international stature of a Rubinstein , took up one of the top neglected romantic works, then the promoters would possibly give it a chance.
Rosand, in my view, almost succeeded with the Joseph White Violin Concerto,but maybe he was not regarded as a violinist at the highest pinnacle.
If a composition of the weight and merit of the Gernsheim Piano Concerto came to the attention of one of the top "players in the game", then it could be a contender for concert-hall outings. If we don't make the case for it (and other works of similar stature), then,who will?
Sure, should someone like Yuja Wang choose to give a string of performances of the Gernsheim PC with several prominent orchestras and conductors, that would change the odds at least for a time, and make it more probable for others to pick it up and a performance tradition to find a foothold. But in the current climate, people like that will mainly stick to their handful of large concertos because of the frequency with which they perform. And I can think of no conductors today that have the clout of Beecham, or Karajan or Bernstein back in the day and perhaps more importantly, the time to adopt new repertory on a consistent basis. Järvi is a bit of a miracle, but he's also the exception.
Quote from: Ilja on Saturday 12 July 2025, 11:06no conductors today that have the clout of Beecham, or Karajan or Bernstein
It's not only clout, but
curiosity.
Spot on, Alan.
If only Rattle, or Chailly or Pappano or Petrenko (Kirill) et al. had more curiosity, the clout that they undoubtedly have (even today) would bear fruit in more performances outside the standard repertoire...
It's that also, but mainly time. The kind of conductor that reigns supreme over their own orchestra is a thing of the past. Even principal conductors of large orchestras are usually visiting conductors at multiple others at the same time, and spend more time traveling than rehearsing. I personally witnessed how Gergiev would have "assistants" do the rehearsals and only turn up for the performance itself, and he's no exception. And that lack of time also kills curiosity: when are they supposed to find and investigate new scores?
And the huge salaries they command take a toll on repertoire innovation as well, as they're pricier to perform than the standard stuff: more rehearsal time, preparation of materials, etc. A few years ago the Paris Opera decided to replace a live orchestra with a recording for a ballet performance at a few occasions so they could afford to hire Dudamel. There was an uproar and I'm not sure they went through with it, but it's telling that they were even considering such an extreme thing.
The inertia against out-of-the-way repertory is so strong that even the most famous performers cannot act against it. If Beecham and Bernstein could not revive Rustic Wedding, who could? When Järvi was music director at Detroit he programmed unusual things all the time, but no one followed his lead.
I asked the conductor of our local orchestra if he ever considered doing something outside of the norm (which, to be fair, he actually did now and then). He told me that in an ideal world he would like to do more Reger, but that every time he programmed something unusual he could count 200 more empty seats in the hall.
The newspaper critics don't help (those that still exist) when they take a conductor to task for performing a little known romantic work. They may wear their progressive credentials on their sleeve when it comes to the Kulturkampf -- I recall a recent revival of Bernstein's Mass being condemned in the New York Times because the critic considered it counterrevolutionary -- but when it comes to the repertory, they are as reactionary as they come.
Quote from: Ilja on Saturday 12 July 2025, 11:53It's that also, but mainly time. The kind of conductor that reigns supreme over their own orchestra is a thing of the past.
How grateful we must be, therefore, for fearless explorers such as those whose recordings appear on, for example, cpo, via various German radio stations. We salute Howard Griffiths, Golo Berg, Frank Beermann, Ari Rasilainen and countless others who have defied the conventions and demands of the standard repertoire. We may want more, but just consider for a moment what we already have!
And with that, back to this superb Gernsheim recording...
Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 12 July 2025, 14:35And with that, back to this superb Gernsheim recording...
I listened to it yesterday, inspired by this thread. I think it's a good Concerto, but I don't think it's top flight. That is, it's well written, I enjoy it, it's worth hearing, but it seems to me there are quite a few other unplayed piano concertos that are more deserving of revival.
I threw a little shade on the work if only because the general theme of the latest post suggests that this is the sliced bread of lost concertos, while I find it just one of many good ones, but not an exemplary one.
With respect,John, I think you have to listen to it a number of times before you realise how good it is. The first time I heard it,I thought: this is pretty good,but maybe a bit Brahms lite. But I listened to it more and more. And I am finding more things to admire,every time I listen
As I have already mentioned, Jonathan's review digs deep,and,the next time,I play it(tomorrow), I will have his review in front of me when I do.
I must have now played it for getting on thirty times, and it does not pall.
Terry, I was bit unclear. I should have written that I listen to it again yesterday. I think this is the fifth or sixth time for me.
Quote from: John Boyer on Saturday 12 July 2025, 15:20Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 12 July 2025, 14:35And with that, back to this superb Gernsheim recording...
I listened to it yesterday, inspired by this thread. I think it's a good Concerto, but I don't think it's top flight. That is, it's well written, I enjoy it, it's worth hearing, but it seems to me there are quite a few other unplayed piano concertos that are more deserving of revival.
I threw a little shade on the work if only because the general theme of the latest post suggests that this is the sliced bread of lost concertos, while I find it just one of many good ones, but not an exemplary one.
Having listened to this for a number of times over the last months (both the Triendl recordings), I'm with John. It's a very good concerto, but it exists among many others. And while it's among the top works of its era in terms of inspiration, vigor and invention, I also think it shows Gernsheim's immaturity in other areas, such as creating orchestral colour. For that reason, I also don't think it's quite on the same level in terms of individuality or craftsmanship as later works such as the last three symphonies, the Cello Concerto or
Zu einem Drama (which, for me, is his orchestral masterwork.
Edit: I took a few hours to listen to other piano concertos from 1868, which was quite a year for the genre (and around): we have the Grieg A minor, Saint-Saëns 2nd in G minor, Benoit, Brüll, Winding, and of course Gernsheim. We can also consider the Kiel B flat major, Dreyschock D-minor, Bergson E minor, Goetz B flat major, Litolff No. 5 C minor, Rubinstein 4th in D minor and Saint-Saëns 3rd in E flat major as roughly contemporaneous. Set against that competition, I don't hear the same fluidity and comfort with form in the Gernsheim that I hear in Brüll, Dreyschock, Saint-Saëns (!), Grieg, and Kiel. I still think it's a very good concerto, but not quite on that level.
But the whole Gernsheim discussion aside: that's a LOT of excellent concertos during those years.
Understood,John. Enough times to have reached a definite conclusion,then.
Ilya comments favourably about the last three symphonies, so he and I can definitely agree about the Second (which I am now recalling in my mind's eye,especially the opening bars of the Finale)
I'm with terry - and the performers on this superb recording.
Quote from: Ilja on Saturday 12 July 2025, 15:57the Grieg A minor, Saint-Saëns 2nd in G minor, Benoit, Brüll, Winding, and of course Gernsheim. We can also consider the Kiel B flat major, Dreyschock D-minor, Bergson E minor, Goetz B flat major, Litolff No. 5 C minor, Rubinstein 4th in D minor and Saint-Saëns 3rd in E flat major as roughly contemporaneous. Set against that competition, I don't hear the same fluidity and comfort with form in the Gernsheim that I hear in Brüll, Dreyschock, Saint-Saëns (!), Grieg, and Kiel.
Speaking purely personally, I'd say the Grieg and Saint-Saëns PC2 are superior to the Gernsheim, but otherwise I'd only rate Rubinstein PC4 as being on the same compositional level. It's all very subjective, though, isn't it?
I do agree with Ilja about the stature of Zu einem Drama. Fabulous music.
I listened to it again today. Why not? Again, a nice piece, aided by an excellent performance and recording. It's curious how our memory plays tricks on us. I made a note to myself when I posted this to mention an objection I had to the finale: I planned to write that I felt the finale would have been improved had he modulated to C major in the coda rather than end in a needlessly serious C minor. So much for my memory: when I listened to it, there was the bright C major ending that I had imagined was missing.
If the work doesn't quite match contemporary unsungs like Goetz 2 or Rubinstein 4, it is nonetheless a strong contender, and I prefer it to Kiel.
Terry and Ilja mentioned the symphonies -- superb stuff! For me, the 2nd and 4th should be repertory standards.
Now, off to the Cello Concerto and the overture...
Quote from: John Boyer on Sunday 13 July 2025, 02:35Goetz 2
Thanks for the reminder, John. What a lovely work that is - I'd quite forgotten about it...
I entirely agree with Alan,when it comes to his rating of the Grieg and the Saint-Saens Second, and then Rubinstein's Fourth. And ranking this Gernsheim up there with the Rubinstein.
The Grieg and the Saint-Saens and (at least in my younger days) the Rubinstein are repertoire works...........
(Just a thought!)
I may well give it a spin today as well (in between other things!)
I don't think that there are all too many other unsung composers who have five or six (if you count the Third Symphony,as Ilya does) works which we rate as highly as we do. Perhaps not even Raff.......
Another reason for my belief that Gernsheim stands a chance of a revival! Force of numbers. Someone out there may become a champion.
And three of those works are on this one disc. We are fortunate!
I'd say Raff was ahead of Gernsheim in range and achievement; and, of course, I'd put Draeseke right at the top of his contemporaries, post-Raff. Interestingly, this was more or less Alan Krueck's view...
Anyway, Gernsheim's well worth a place in the pantheon. So much to enjoy.
John Boyer quite rightly pointed to Goetz's PC2, which is a more advanced work, I think, than Gernsheim's PC - more Brahmsian in scale (42:19 in the ripely expansive performance with Andrea Kauten on Solo Musica) and idiom. I apologise for my poor memory. Of course, even the Goetz doesn't feature in concert programmes. Go figure...
I suspect that, whatever our own personal favourites are, a whole bunch of these concertos ought to feature in concert programmes somewhere. But apparently not.
I would certainly agree with Alan about Raff, who is my personal favourite out of all composers,sung and unsung,and I understand the case he makes for Draeseke.
But the point I was attempting to make is the sheer strength in depth of Gernsheim's compositions which makes him stand out. I mentioned five,maybe six,works of his that could easily grace the concert hall.
Although I personally prefer the symphonies,for example,of Raff, and would place his Third and the Fifth way up there and throw in his Piano Concerto for good measure, that's only three works,before we start to consider the merits of his last four symphonies, for which the concert-hall case has not yet been fully made - might well be made by Jarvi,of course.
And,in Lord Sugar's word, I am "struggling" to look past Draeseke's Second and Third for the strength in depth there.
Rubinstein is not,even now,in my opinion truly unsung,certainly not in the Russian sphere of influence. At the worst,he is "formerly sung". But I would be hard pressed, even if I am wrong about him, to pinpoint the five or six strong concert-hall contenders from his oeuvre. And I am very fond of his music.
Regarding Draeseke: there's too much of his music that we just don't really know or haven't heard. And some of his chamber music (e.g. the Cello Sonata, 2nd String Quartet and the Op.48 Quintet) is simply unlike anything else written at the time. BTW his 1st Symphony is also one of my all-time favourites, again standing out from the crowd of his contemporaries. None of which is to deny Gernsheim's place in the pantheon of deserving unsungs.
I think the principle should be to champion all of these fine composers. If Clara Schumann's PC can be programmed on the first night of the Proms in 2024, why not any of the works we've mentioned?
Oh, and I too have soft spot for Kiel's PC. It has a very touching, albeit brief slow movement.
And I still am inordinately fond of Robert Fuchs' best works as well (his string quartets to start with), but my sympathies may be too wide. As to Gernsheim, no mention here of the fine violin concertos too? :)
(Tangentially, I see cpo has another Gernsheim series, which like Toccata takes advantage of the manuscripts in Israel that provided early piano music for Toccata and an early violin sonata for cpo that wasn't included in the otherwise complete Brilliant Classics set. Not sure if that cpo violin music recording was mentioned here yet, which only mostly duplicates that earlier set in material...)
Yes,indeed,Eric,the fine violin concertos too.
Strength in depth...........
It's strange, though: much as I like the two VCs, it's the PC that I can remember. Neither is a patch on Draeseke's VC which, once heard, is impossible to forget.
Is there any link to the orchestrated Draeseke,Alan?
Along with the Litolff you recently mentioned, these are two more I want to hear.
I recognise Gernsheim's violin concertos as fine works, but it is the brooding, at times, introspective, Piano Concerto that sticks in the mind.
I find it richly rewarding.
Quote from: terry martyn on Monday 14 July 2025, 13:10Is there any link to the orchestrated Draeseke,Alan?
No, unfortunately not. I have the score, but it's never been performed, let alone recorded. See what I mean when I say that too much Draeseke is as yet unknown? So, for the moment it's the mind's ear only...
Some say that Taneyev is a Russian Brahms, which I hardly understood. But listening to Gernsheim's piano concerto as well as Syphmony 1 I would say that Taneyev is a Russian Gernsheim some 20 years later. The beginnings of their concerti sound as if they are probably not twins, but surely brothers.
Quote from: Vitaly on Monday 21 July 2025, 20:24The beginnings of their concerti sound as if they are probably not twins, but surely brothers.
Please could you explain with details of the works concerned? Speaking personally, if we're talking about Taneyev's Piano Concerto, I don't hear any real kinship with Gernsheim's PC.
There has been quite an upsurge in interest in this CD in recent hours and days.
The three works contained on it are, in my view, three of the strongest couplings (if I can get away with saying that) that I have encountered for a long time. On top of that,the orchestra plays with passion,the soloists with expression and verve,and the sound engineering is quality personified.
I hope it is a bestseller for cpo,who have rendered such service to the realm of the unsung.
.
Taneyev didn't leave any completed concerti so-named, anycase.
Quite so, Eric.
For those of a statistical bent, out of the 3864 (and counting) threads in this section of the forum, only four have had more viewings (Gliere,Cliffe,Brian,and Moszkowski). There must obviously be a few threads in "Composers and Music" with more viewings (eg Hiller), but it now surpasses the one on Hans Franke there,which I heartily recommend for new viewers. Overnight,there have been more than 3000 viewings alone.
It only takes a prospective champion to view it once............
The stats for July seem to be so much higher than usual that I rather suspect that this is due to other traffic than interested readers.
Of those four is only the Brian now considered outside our remit?
Quote from: Ilja on Tuesday 22 July 2025, 14:02The stats for July seem to be so much higher than usual that I rather suspect that this is due to other traffic than interested readers.
You're correct. And we're on it...
No doubt about it, we've been the subject for a few weeks now of sustained and substantial spam/hacking attempts, which so far our defences have frustrated. I've just deleted the latest batch of "new" members who somehow have managed to register without ever having visited the site - 150+ since Sunday. I also installed the latest version of the site's software on Saturday, which is supposed to offer even more security against bad players, though I've not had the chance to investigate whether it included any practical measures that we can add to our arsenal.
I'm not complacent, but I'm not sure what more we can do to protect ourselves without making UC unusable. At least so far, what we have done has managed to keep the predators at bay.
Many thanks, Mark. What a nuisance for you.
Quite a nuisance indeed. Thanks for working to keep the site alive.
...and with that, back to Gernsheim.
Yes. Thank you very much indeed. There is no punishment too dire for such selfish nuisances.