A search of the forum turned up a few comments and recommendations, but I'm interested in exploring the music of Herr Thuille in more depth after hearing the Romantic Overture played last Sunday. I wondered what recorded pieces and performances people recommend. If I don't reply immediately, it's not lack of interest...I'll be out of the country through Sunday.
Gee, maybe this belongs in the main forum...
David
I have only heard the concerto and whilst that was a while ago, I can remember asking myself why this was not part of the regular repetoire.
Must give it another hearing this week.
Thal
Our Spanish friend Fernando (with his creative nickname Alexander_Glazraffstein) mentioned Thuille in the thread on Johann Rufinatscha: unjustly unsung (Reply #6). Because of his enthusiasm I bought the cpo CD which couples Thuille's PC and Symphony. Pleasant music, although I don't listen to it so often.
Two questions: (1) what happened to Fernando (he has suddenly disappeared from our Forum) and (2) any idea how to pronounce Thuille?
A "How to pronounce" thread would be of use to me.
I once embarrased myself with a badly pronounced Moscheles and a pretty awful Faure.
Thal
I have his Sextet and Piano Quintet on Naxos 8.570790 and it's charming stuff (i've got the symphony & piano concerto disc as well on CPO).
Will have a listen again later as I'm off sick from work today.
Thuille is pronounced "twiller".
I'm no expert on German, Alan, but I rather thought it would be pronounced "tweelah".
I speak German, Jim. If it were to be pronounced "tweelah", the name would have to be spelt "Thuile" - in other words, a single 'l' lengthens the vowel sound.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Wednesday 18 November 2009, 23:55
I speak German, Jim. If it were to be pronounced "tweelah", the name would have to be spelt "Thuile" - in other words, a single 'l' lengthens the vowel sound.
Any German speaker would know that there is no "er" sound when the word ends in an "e." In German, the final "e" always is pronounced.
"Twiller" einfach tut nicht.
Therefore, correctly it is
Twill-eh.
How often it happens on music forums, that the pronounciation of the composers name generates more discussion than his works :o
Thal
Quote from: thalbergmad on Thursday 19 November 2009, 17:12
How often it happens on music forums, that the pronounciation of the composers name generates more discussion than his works :o
Thal
Ha! True. However, in the case of Herr Thuille, the pronunciation may be of more interest than his music...nice, it is, but nothing to write home about. No? :P
That's certainly true of his orchestral music. His chamber music has more substance to it IMHO.
"Twill-eh" is not very helpful as a guide to pronunciation for English speakers. "Eh?" (pronounced "ay") is the sound made in English when a person fails to hear what somebody else has said. Thus, anybody following this guide would be led to pronounce the name "Twill-ay". "Twiller", rhyming with "miller", is far closer for English-speakers - and I base my opinion on over 30 years of teaching English teenagers to pronounce German properly.
Please note: I am not trying to tell a native German-speaker how to pronounce his own language, but rather what the closest approximation would be for an English-speaker who doesn't speak German and doesn't know the phonetic alphabet. Equally, though, I do not expect a native German-speaker to tell me how best to render a German word so that it can be pronounced reasonably correctly by an English-speaker!
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 20 November 2009, 10:04
and I base my opinion on over 30 years of teaching English teenagers to pronounce German properly.
This must be even more difficult than teaching English teenagers how to pronounce English properly.
Thuille ryhmes with miller is an excellent way of remembering, but can i use the same theorum with the Belguim composer Chevreuille??
Regards
Thal
No! the final sound "euille" equates roughly to "er-ee".
The problem is with all them 'r's. The actual pronunciation, IMHO is closer to "twilluh" than "twiller". And Chevreuille rhymes more with "the boy", than "the hurry". Although that's tougher because "eu" in French has a rather tricky pronunciation.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 20 November 2009, 10:04
"Twill-eh" is not very helpful as a guide to pronunciation for English speakers. "Eh?" (pronounced "ay") is the sound made in English when a person fails to hear what somebody else has said. Thus, anybody following this guide would be led to pronounce the name "Twill-ay". "
It was my assumption, not knowing the proper diacritical mark, that most posters here, English-speaking or not, possess enough basic intelligence to realize that the "eh" sound at the end of a German word is not pronounced "ay," as mentioned above. Especially since there is, per se, no English long "a" sound in German - and more specifically, certainly not in any case from the letter "e." Maybe my assumption was incorrect.
So, perhaps likening the sound to the "e" sound in the English word "nest" or "well" will explain better? ;)
On second (or is it third) thought - who cares? Just listen to the music!
Unfortunately it is not possible to assume that English-speakers know how to pronounce even the simplest things in German. Listening to a current affairs programme the other day, I heard a presenter refer to a certain well-known German newspaper as the "Süddeutsch Zeitung" - in other words, she didn't realise that the 'e' on the end of the first word is sounded.
I rest my case.
Well, I was thinking only about the posters here - who, one would assume, possess a higher intelligence level and have had more exposure to foreign words and names than the general population, including news readers. Let's face it, the average Brit cannot come near pronouncing correctly most non-English words. I mean, Czechoslo-vaykia, for goodness sakes! Dankt Gott the country split in two! ::)
Yeah, you're right, only it's like the 'r' produced by a three-year-old with that weird little speech impediment that three-year-olds have.
And it is "twilleh", only with the Canadian "eh"! ;D
Regardless of how one pronounces his name (the French way or the German), let's agree that he did have a formidable moustache (please, a silent "e" at the end of "moustache"):
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a5/LudwigThuille.jpg/180px-LudwigThuille.jpg)
I agree, the moustache takes it. Now, "Genug!".
Yes, enough, already. But just remember who has tried to teach these issues for thirty years!
Quote from: wunderkind on Friday 20 November 2009, 23:41
Well, I was thinking only about the posters here - who, one would assume, possess a higher intelligence level
Well, you can count me out. I need all the help i can get.
Thal
Hmmmm. Indeed, this is a learned commentary on how the the Germans pronounce French names (the family was originally French.) But what of the music. Have only three of us got an opinion of it? It's not much for me to go on. Specific recordings, anyone, including more on the symphony?
Thanks, David
I'm afraid that the cpo CD of Thuille's Symphony was much anticipated and proved to be a big disappointment. Both are early works (IIRC the Concerto is the later of the two) and neither has any real individuality. The Symphony is stuck stylistically in mid-19th. century Schumann/Mendelssohn territory, nicely (but not individually) orchestrated and harmonically unadventurous. Melodically I found it unmemorable, but others may disagree. The Concerto, which I played only the other day as it happens, has more, but not much more, going for it because it is melodically stronger. These are very much safe student works - no doubt his professors were pleased.
I shall now wait for the avalanche of disagreement to descend upon me. :(
At the risk of being reprimanded for diverting this string into quite another channel, I would very much appreciate an informed person telling me how to pronounce "Thieriot" (as in Ferdinand).
Poor Ludwig Thuille. Mark's post was for me the motive to listen once again to the CD.
The PC (premiered in 1882 as a part of Thuille's examination program) has a few pleasant passages, and the 2nd movement is not that bad. Even the last movement has a main theme.
But the symphony (premiered in 1886). That is what I call boring. Not memorable for a second, no sparkling themes, no depth at all, just barely inspiring classical music on a very average level.
The cpo CD is perhaps worth for the PC (although definitely not a masterpiece), but I doubt I'll ever listen to Thuille's symphony again. However, I understand Thuille's chamber music should be better.
Peter and Mark, thanks for your comments on the cpo disc. I'll pass on it, as the overture I heard (written a number of years later) was a very tuneful, extroverted and enjoyably orchestrated piece...an entirely different kettle of fish from what you describe.
How about the chamber music. Anyone have the ASV disc?
David (persistant in NYC)
David: I have the ASV disc of two Piano Quintets. Also own a CD of Thuille's Sextet and Trio. They both are quite fine - much better than the orchestral music which, as noted above, generally is boring. Thuille's talent appears to have been in the chamber music department.
He also wrote at least a couple of operas, the second of which, Lobetanz, I have as a recording of a radio broadcast. It was very popular for a few years and it's easy to see why. It's very, um, pleasant.
Thanks wunderkind, I think I'll check out the quintets.
Mark, I can imagine some of the qualities of Thuille's operas, as the Romantic Overture was originally the curtain raiser to the opera Teuerdank, which Thuille ultimately supressed. Delightful stuff.
Thanks to everyone, David
I've just come across Ludwig Thuille (and thanks for the pronunciation tips - I shall say "twillah"). I'd never come across his name until a week ago, when our chamber music group suggested we look at his sextet for piano and wind later in the year, in which case I will be getting the piano part.
I've just listened to it on YouTube and it's quite an attractive piece worthy of performance. We will only have time to look at one movement and, as I'm the one with the most notes to play, I usually get to choose! I'll report back on how we get on.
He's variously described as German and Austrian. As he was from South Tyrol, surely Austrian is correct. Since 1918 it's been part of Italy - the home of tennis star Jannik Sinner who's Italian but with a German-sounding name.
To assign modern nationalities to pre-1918 people is inherently risky. In the case of Thuille, he worked mostly in Munich, and while he's Austrian it'd be most accurate to describe him as "Southern German", part of the same circle as people like Richard Strauss. Certainly not Viennese, Italian or Berlin.
For me, the tragedy of Thuille is that he's not all that good in the "prestigious" genres. The Symphony and Piano Concerto are nothing to write home about; quite conventional and bereft of much originality. The chamber music is a lot better, and he proved his orchestral skills through his Romantische Ouverture of 1897.
I heartily disagree - I find Thuille's Piano Concerto in D major to be an excellent piece of music; it's how I got to first know and admire his music. The writing is very clean and the themes are very attractive, reminiscent of Saint-Saëns' Piano Concerto no. 1 in the same key. (And if anyone knows where one can access the score or manuscript, I would be very grateful.)
Yesterday, I gave both the concerto and the symphony another spin, because my unfavorable opinion was based on only a few listens several years ago and I felt I'd been too quick in reproducing it without doing the proper homework.
Having heard both pieces again, I do feel forced to revise my view. Particularly the Piano Concerto is a much finer piece than I remembered it to be, and I genuinely enjoyed listening to it again. I still feel that there are a few weak spots; particularly the first movement has its static moments, but these are really minor squibbles. Unfortunately, the pianism of the usually reliable Oliver Triendl is a bit leaden here and there, most notably in (again) the first movement. A slightly lighter touch might've elevated the piece even further.
The symphony is a different matter. Although my impression was still more positive than the first time around, it's also nothing special, and overall I'd qualify it as perfectly average for a symphony of its era. It contains some good themes, but also suffers from a certain emotional uniformity, which is exacertabated by Thuille's less than inventive instrumentation. Contrast this to the far greater dynamic variation and instrumental colour in the Romantische Ouvertüre of 1897. What doesn't work in the symphony's favor in this particular performance (Bolzano-Trento Haydn Orchestra with Alun Francis on cpo) is that the chosen tempi are sometimes on the overly slow side. This affects both the first and (particularly) the Menuetto third movement; as an experiment I sped the latter up to 80% of its original running time, which did wonders in injecting it with a bit of dance-like "bounce".
The score of the piano concerto is apparently kept in the Bayerische Staatsbibliothek (https://opacplus.bsb-muenchen.de/title/BV047673239). Should you not be able to go there, my experience is that the scanning fees of the BSB are quite reasonable. Should they prove not to be in this case, give me a DM and I'd be happy to photograph it for you when I visit in January.
Worldcat suggests they have three autographs by him, one maybe the original corrected by another hand (134 pp) one a fair copy of the other (148 pp) (BSB Mus. ms. 16525 and 16524 resp.) plus also 16523 which is a autograph manuscript reduction (96 pp...) all from 1881.