Friends will be interested to hear that Brilliant Classics have gathered together many of the classic 60s/70s recordings of unsung PCs in a 20-CD box retailing at only just over £1-50 per CD.
The PCs concerned are by:
D'Albert, Alkan, Balakirev, Barber, Beach, Berwald, Bronsart, Cramer, Czerny, Chopin, Clementi, Field, Gershwin, Glazunov, Goetz, Henselt, Hiller, Hummel, Kalkbrenner, Lalo, Liszt, Litolff, Lyapunov, MacDowell, Mayr, Medtner, Mendelssohn, Moscheles, Mosonyi, Moskowski, Pierne, Raff, Reinecke, Rheinberger, Ries, Roussel, Rubinstein, Scharwenka, Schumann, Sinding, Stavenhagen,Tchaikovsky, Thalberg, Volkmann and Weber
...and the soloists include:
Felicja Blumental; Michael Ponti; Jerome Rose; Marylène Dosse and Eugene List
Details here...
http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_December09/9021.htm (http://www.mdt.co.uk/MDTSite/product/NR_December09/9021.htm)
Sounds like all them ol' Vox releases have been given another lease on life. Too bad so many of them are merely sizable chunks of the actual works involved.
Splendid news and surely a must buy.
Letter to Santa in the post.
Thal
Since I never had any of these older recordings - and in the light of the Hyperion series (and many other issues on other labels) - is this set actually worth buying, even at super, super bargain price? If so, which are the essential performances it contains and in what way(s) aren't they bettered elsewhere?
Others will put me right, I'm sure, but the major works here which aren't available in other performances are Hiller's Konzertstuck and Bronsart's Concerto. I can't say that the former has ever been a favourite of mine, but the latter is a joy of a work - almost a a text book example of all that a mid-19th. century piano concerto should be. I'm not a huge fan of Ponti either (apologies to his adherents, we'll just have to disagree) but in the Bronsart he is on top form and the recording is a joy. In most other cases where repertoire on these CDs has been duplicated by later issues, I prefer those later performances.
Sadly, no sign of the Pixis double concerto.
Needless to say, quality varies. For those who may not remember Vox in its heydey, Candide was the label's premium line.
Only auditioned some of the recordings. Here are personal reactions, in alphabetical order by composer.
Beach: personal favorite -- performance VG (Boehm) [corrected] G (orchestra)
Chopin: One of several orchestrations of the Allegro de Concert, op. 46. Orchestration OK (unidiomatic); piano performance G; orchestra unrehearsed (abysmal -- partly due to the risky orchestration)
Gershwin: Assuming this is List, a long-time Gershwin specialist, and always excellent.
Henselt: A winner, and Ponti at his best. A pity Richter recorded the Liszt concertos but not this.
Hiller: in the Konzertstueck, not otherwise available to my knowledge. Jerome Rose shines, and the concerto itself is hard to forget.
Hummel: "Les Adieux," attractively played by Hans Kann.
Kalkbrenner: Impossible to hear this without identifying the paragraphs in Chopin's e-minor that are variants of the Kalkbrenner. Well performed by Hans Kann.
MacDowell: List and Carlos Chavez(!) give us one of the better recordings, much more idiomatic than the Hyperion outing.
Weber: haven't heard it, but can't imagine anyone bettering Demidenko's stunning performances on Hyperion.
chill319, the Beach concerto pianist isn't Blumenthal, it's Mary Louise Boehm. And since the rights to that recording (like those for the Pixis) were bought back from George Mendelssohn by MLB some years ago, Kees Kooper is going to be annoyed. The masters sit on a shelf in his apartment, btw, so no remastering is involved.
Mark, I also remember the Volkmann Konzertstuck as a fine piece. As far as I know it hasn't been available in any other performance.
David
Thanks for the correction, edurban. And my apologies to the memory of the late, courageous Ms. Boehm.
David, you're quite right, I'd forgotten the Volkmann. He's still a curiously forgotten figure even amongst us cognoscenti, considering how highly he was regarded in his lifetime.
I do wish Kees Kooper would allow some company to issue Boehm's performance of the truly delicious double concerto by Pixis. It's a great shame that the public are denied this gorgeous music.
On Volkmann, I was very disappointed to find that the Concertstiuck was omitted from CPO's so-called "Complete Orchestral Works" box (I believe an overture was also left out). It is a very fine work, and certainly worthy of a good modern recording.
I do feel constrained to point out that many of these releases have less than optimal production values, and, as I mentioned previously, there are cuts taken in many of these works (Kalkbrenner 1, Hummel Op. 110, Goetz, Litolff 3, etc.) that make the subsequent Chandos and Hyperion recordings more desirable in terms of completeness, as well as sound quality. Some of the cuts were made by the inimitable Carl Reinecke.
I have most of these on LP. Have never really liked the CD transfers compared to the LP. Did pick up a couple of the Vox boxes for convenience.
Cuts were normal back then. Horowitz never once played the complete Rachmaninoff 3rd, and his friend Rachmaninoff was perfectly happy with that. In fact, so far as I know, neither did Rachmaninoff before he gave it to Horowitz. And as with the Rachmaninoff 3rd, sometimes those were not cuts at all. Sometimes composers wrote passages after the fact that could be inserted by soloists or orchestra, which is what occurred with the cadenza to Rachmaninoff's 3rd.
Of course, there frequently were cuts made in recording to accommodate the playing time of vinyl, some of which were sanctioned or made by the composer himself. But some conductors just took a lot of liberties with scores. Stokowski hacked out half of Gliere's 3rd symphony for performance and for recording, and not to accommodate the limits of vinyl -- he just liked it better without half the music. Unconscionable!
The issue to me is not whether there are cuts, or omitted additions, or repeats that are commonly optional in the score, but whether the experience of listening to the recording is enjoyable. I do not listen as analytically as Jim, so the cuts do not usually bother me.
I'm very much in doubt whether to buy the set or not. If I do, it's only for Hiller's Konzertstück and especially Bronsart's PC. On the other hand, only this year I've bought over 150 CDs already, so why not add this box to the collection as well...?
Can anybody tell me something about Bronsart's PC? Is it in the style of Henselt (utterly majestic and brilliant) or (late) romantic? Or just a concerto without individuality or depth?
Peter, the Bronsart is VERY good;listen to the beautiful slow theme in the first movement;lovely slow movement; and the piece de resistance, a camp but well-co-ordinated combining of the lovely slow(Wagnerian) theme from movement one withe a tarantella :) ;) :D. It works!
Ok, we all know the orchestras, and sometimes the reordings, in these Vox recordings, often leave much to be desired; and I think all of the Hyperion roster are 100% technically assured and brilliant and thoughtful pianists, with excellent recordings and consistently good orchestras. But, to hear Ponti, Blumenthal et all "sing" their hearts out with joy, passion, and nervile excitement, and thus bring these lovely, exciting, moving concerti ALIVE is more significant to me.
I know the forum divides into two camps on this, but never mind. I think this is a startling bargain, an essential historical (alive)document, and I wish i could afford it(though I have nearly all of these recordings on vinyl, except for the Beach Piano Concerto, which, even, I, in all my Vox zealotry, didnt know Boehm had recorded for them.) Some of Blumenthal's recordings may be missing cos Brana(her daughter's company) seem to have the rights to at least some of her Vox recordings.
I'm all for differing and different renditions too; there ARE cuts, but, to me, the joie de vivre(and passion and sadness where needed) outweigh all this. EG. I can enjoy Susanne Lautenbacher's cut Goldmark Violin Concerto but also the newer(uncut) Naxos one; both valid.
But its all agree to disagree; or politely disagree, i hope! :) ;)
Steve
Quote from: Peter1953 on Thursday 26 November 2009, 16:06
I'm very much in doubt whether to buy the set or not. If I do, it's only for Hiller's Konzertstück and especially Bronsart's PC. On the other hand, only this year I've bought over 150 CDs already, so why not add this box to the collection as well...?
I think it is about time somebody bought one for you then my friend. An ideal opportunity as we get ever closer to the time of year when ones credit card spends more time out of the wallet.
This is a serious bargain even to those who have heard all of these and to be honest, i would have paid double the asking price. The cuts do not bother me nor the recording quality & i am a great admirer of Mr Ponti. To compare them to Hyperion's issues, is a bit like comparing the girl next door to a airbrushed playboy centrefold. To some, the girl next door is more attractive.
To my ears, Ponti's recording of the Rubinstein 4 is by far superior to MAH's note perfect but banal effort. I might be in the minority here though.
Thal
I second you on Ponti regarding Rubi 4, even without hearing Hamelin's take. It is indeed way too bad that the production values on that particular effort were probably far inferior to Hyperion's. Othmar Maga did a creditable job conducting in support of Ponti - when you could hear him at all. And I second Steve on the Bronsart concerto. Of all the concertos by Liszt's disciples this one and the D'Albert 2nd are probably the strongest efforts. Unlike the D'Albert, Bronsart's concerto is in the three traditional movements, however both works use Liszt's cyclic approach. That slow theme (actually the 3rd theme in the first movement, a la the Raff PC) pops up in the finale, the 2nd theme in the first movement recurs twice in the slow movement. The Raff concerto is a good comparison with the Bronsart in some respects. The proportions are quite similar (mid-sized, like the Schumann, Henselt or Grieg concertos) and there are cyclic elements. Bronsart even has some Raffian contrapuntal tricks up his sleeve in the finale.
Thalbergmad, ur post made me laugh; though in my case it would be the BOY next door :). Its funny how fashions change. 80 years ago it would have been acceptable to play these works flamboyantly and with some poetic freedom or "license", as Ponti does, eg. in tempi, rubato; even cuts.
My theory is that a lot of it is to do with the way in which (mainly!)males deem it acceptable to express and experience emotion(s). Too much flamboyance, heart on sleeve emotion is somehow less valid than a rigorous, cerebralised emotion, driven chiefly and ultimately by the intellect; where one must realise the composer's "true intentions", "let the music speak for itself"; music does not speak for itself, it needs individual interpretation. At the moment, the academic, (mainly!) male-driven fashion is for, taking pianistic practise as an example, not too much of the extreme kind of rubato(which Paderewski, for instance, advocated, whereby if you lengthen some notes in a bar you DON'T have to compensate by shortening the others), no extra arpeggiation of notes(unless in the score)etc.
Also, there is a hierarchy of emotions; you see this, for example, on the mostly excellent Amazon.com Classical Music Forum, whereby the emotion of a Beethoven Quartet is seen as rareified and qualitively "better"/"deeper" than that of the Moszkowski Violin Concerto or Raff Piano Concerto(for instance,); even though both can tug at the heartstrings in equal, but different, ways; but the Ponti-esque, romanticised Romantic era Piano Concerto is viewed as qualitatively lesser because it appeals to baser emotions, or more direct; i personally would say less filtered through the intellect.
Of course, I am simplifying to make a point. A Beethoven String Quartet is a visceral deeply emotional experience, just as some of our unsungs can be to us.But I mean what I say. :)
Another example would be Trochopoulos playing the Pabst Concerto versus Marsheev; the latter, indeed, is not the least flamboyant pianist of these concerti(in style), but Trochopoulos, despite the boomy recording, the occasional error and the less than perfect BeloRussian orchestra plays ardently, with passionate use of rubato and makes the Pabst LIVE/ALIVE
These are merely my opinions, else I would be setting up a reverse hierarchy(equally hieracrchical,) so please DON'T TAKE OFFENCE :).
But the way we like our emotion in music, and how much that is part of the inner self and how much is socially/academic fashion driven, is, to me anyway, an interesting question; and leads to threads like this on whether the Hyperion pianists are the sine qua non as regards interpretation of our favourite concerti or whether pianists of the older more flamboyant style, like Ponti, and Trochopoulos, have indeed got a great deal to offer too.
Discuss!
Steve
Quote from: Steve B on Friday 27 November 2009, 01:15
Its funny how fashions change. 80 years ago it would have been acceptable to play these works flamboyantly and with some poetic freedom or "license", as Ponti does, eg. in tempi, rubato; even cuts.
To me, the score to a romantic work is a suggestion as opposed to a rule book. I cannot help but feel that Ponti's recording of the Rub 4 is closer to how it would have been played 100 years ago.
There does seem to be a tendency nowadays to seek the note perfect and 100% to the score recordings, which in my opinion can lead to boring recordings. I would actually rather listen to a midi than Hamelins Rubinstein 4 again.
Perhaps the root of the problem (if there is one), is in todays piano competitions, where nothing but accuracy and adherence to the score seems to matter. A 19th Century titan like Rosenthal might not even get past the first round of a modern competition and this to me is a shame.
Thal
Thanks, Thalberg and Amphissa; good to hear some similar views.
Steve
I very much enjoyed Cherkassky's Rubinstein 4 - and, indeed, was lucky enough to hear him perform this concerto live.
For those who like to try things out at the keyboard, there's a downloadable solo piano arrangement of the Bronsart here:
http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Bronsart_von_Schellendorff,_Hans (http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Bronsart_von_Schellendorff,_Hans)
Just received my copy of the set today. I am currently listening to Raff's PC, and, wow, does Ponti grab the piece by the scruff of the neck! OK, it's all a bit unsubtle, the orchestral support isn't wonderful, the recording's a bit thin - but I think that the more modern performances could benefit from some of Ponti's vim and vigour.
I have to wait until tomorrow, but i can see it now under the tree.
Only Christmas can make a man suffer this much.
I am particularly looking forward to the Volkmann which I have been told is a superb work.
Thal
I'm awaiting the CD box too, but I won't get if from Santa Claus. On 3 December I received an e-mail from MDT that the box was out of stock or not released yet, so I'm very pleased to read Alan's post.
I wonder how the Volkmann sounds, Thal. I have only 3 works by Volkmann (Cello Concerto, Piano Sonata in C Minor, op.12 and a Fantasy for piano in C Major, op. 25a). I don't like each of these works, and find the Cello Concerto even utterly nervous.
The Bronsart is the PC which I long to hear most (and the Mayr the least). But there is more to enjoy. I used to had Cramer's PC 5 on a tape, and now I have Cramer's PCs 2, 7 and 8 on a disc. I hope the one in the collection is #5, because I remember that was a lovely concerto. I must have some patience for a few days...
I hope when you get yours Peter it has not got 2 CD's Number 5 and 0 CD number 15. Obviously the person packing them had a little too much to drink.
What a damned nuisance this is.
Cramer 5 was one of the concerti I had heard before and what a delight it is.
Got a lot of listening to do.
Thal
Peter: try the Volkmann symphonies, especially No.1 - a near-masterpiece and very exciting too!!
The three Cramer concertos I have I found a waste of time. Absolutely no interactions of interest between piano and orchestra, scant use (if any) of winds or full orchestra while the soloist was playing, utter lack of drama, competition or partnership as a result. Cramer looked at himself as a "neo-Mozartean" but it was the Mozart of the early ad-libitum winds concertos. If #5 is any different please let me know.
Quote from: JimL on Friday 25 December 2009, 16:08
If #5 is any different please let me know.
It ain't, but personally I like it.
Sounds like you had better not bother with CD No.1 Jim, which i have just finished listening to.
I had forgotten just how charming Czerny could be.
Thal
CD3 is stunning. Ponti does a magnificent job with the Litolff.
What a stunning concerto and what playing.
Thal
Litolff CS 3 is indeed a repertory-worthy work. It is indeed a shame that Vox (or some earlier editor) hacked off a sizeable chunk of the slow movement (it actually has an orchestral introduction).
I was not aware of any cuts as i was not following the score. I was lying on the sofa with a large Scotch and a packet of Twiglets which is the most civilised way of listening in my experience.
Any cuts did not detract from my enjoyment.
Thal
The opening is primarily of interest because the return of the first theme after the central episode is essentially a recapitulation of the theme as it first appeared in the introduction with Litolff's characteristic "brilliant obbligato" accompaniment in the piano. To hear the whole concerto uncut (along with the unjustly neglected and highly ambitious CS 5) try the Hyperion RPCS release with Peter Donohoe. He has iron fingers in velvet gloves, which is what you need for works like these.
I have heard the Donohoe recording, but it was some time ago and yes, the 5th is unjustly neglected when compared to the more oft recorded 4th.
Tis a shame the 1st appears to be lost and that Litolff did not appear to hit the same artistic heights with his solo works.
Yours concertingly,
Thal
Hi everyone, all agog for my box; which boyfriend said hasnt arrived yet, but will soon; so something to which to look forward.
Thalberg, i like ur healthy attitude; not sure re the twiglets and Scotch(prefer "pringles"), but, occasional cuts or not, these(the Ponti ones anyway) are inspirational; and am glad that you Alan, like the "vim and vigour" of MPs re-creation of the Raff PC(the Dante, later, version is not quite so on the edge-of-seat).
Though I have nearly all these Vox/Turnabout/Candide recordings on much-treasured LPs, it will be ecstatic to have all together, probably for the last time, as they are now somewhat elderly recordings
By the way, Thalberg, Brilliant are fairly well known for careless packaging(there is stuff on various forums re this); I got a free set with a "Gramophone" subscription a couple of years ago, and 2 discs(the same disc in each set) were gouged out in the same place, and i have heard of the duplicate problem previously. If its only Cramer or Czerny i won't be too bothered, but this shoddiness does annoy me.
So, a lovely tribute to poor Mr. Ponti in his 70th year(and to his fellow and fellowess pianists) in an excellent venture. DO try his Rach 3 on Dante(both first movt cadenzi, end to end):pyrotechnics AND passion; mad tempi, but it works. I think it was his last recording before the stroke, which meant he can only play left-hand. But, good luck to him, he still, plays the occasional concert and Paul Theissen(conductor of most of the Dante re-recordings)has written a LH concerto for him which my hero performed in the US fairly recently.
I wish he had recorded the Sgambati PC: the first movement of that would have been a riot.
Hope everyone had a good Christmas/holiday period.
Best wishes
Steve
PS the Ponti re-recording, on Dante, of the Raff Piano concerto has a very unfair review on the Raff site, complaining of the faintness of the orchestra, causing an alleged "Music Minus One" impression. This is, IMHO, TOTALLY misleading; the orchestra plays well and is perfectly audible.
Quote from: Steve B on Sunday 27 December 2009, 00:37So, a lovely tribute to poor Mr. Ponti in his 70th year(and to his fellow and fellowess pianists) in an excellent venture...I think it was his last recording before the stroke, which meant he can only play left-hand. But, good luck to him, he still, plays the occasional concert and Paul Theissen(conductor of most of the Dante re-recordings)has written a LH concerto for him which my hero performed in the US fairly recently.
I thought his right hand was almost completely recovered. In any event, what I wouldn't give to hear him in Bortkiewicz 2! That's right up his alley!
Where did u get that information rom, Jim; that Ponti's Rh was almost wholly recovered?
Thanks Steve
Thought I caught something about it online a while back. I could be confused, though. Unless he had another stroke...
Steve, you must be a very happy man with this box, full of Ponti performances. What an excellent pianist indeed.
And what a performance of my favourite (unsung) piano concerto, the Von Henselt. I prefer Ponti's interpretation above the totally different, almost academic virtuoso show Hamelin has made of it.
Wow... what a trouvaille... the Bronsart is a brilliant piece of music! How is it possible that Bronsart has been so neglected? I wonder what else he composed and if anything else is available on CD.
Well, I have listened to the lot now and it was mostly very pleasing indeed.
I have no idea why some of them were included (Mayr & Clementi) and there were a couple that I rather wish had not been included (Roussel & Pierne), but a thoroughly enjoyable experience it was.
I rather hope this series encourages further releases of rarely or never played romantic concerti, but i still don't think we have seen the last Grieg/Schumann CD.
Concertingly
Thal
Quote from: Peter1953 on Thursday 07 January 2010, 20:44
Wow... what a trouvaille... the Bronsart is a brilliant piece of music! How is it possible that Bronsart has been so neglected? I wonder what else he composed and if anything else is available on CD.
I have never heard anything else by Bronsart, but I have heard a Waltz Caprice written by his wife that was sufficiently awful to have warranted divorce.
Thal
Ingeborg must have been a talented pianist, with Von Henselt as one of her teachers, which doesn't mean that she was a good composer as well. But maybe she had other qualities.
What do you think of the Stavenhagen? Also a quite obscure composer.
Bronsart's Op. 1 is a piano trio in G minor - and very good it is too. His wife is also credited with having written a piano concerto - but I have not managed to find it. Maybe on the strength of the Waltz Caprice it is not worth looking for!!
Quote from: Peter1953 on Thursday 07 January 2010, 21:41
Ingeborg must have been a talented pianist, with Von Henselt as one of her teachers, which doesn't mean that she was a good composer as well. But maybe she had other qualities.
What do you think of the Stavenhagen? Also a quite obscure composer.
If I remember correctly, Henselt was an awful teacher who spent most of the lesson swatting flies ;D
I have fond memories of the Stavenhagen Concerto as it was my first ( and worst) attempt at turning a paper score into a pdf. For some unknown reason, there is something about the first movement that makes me think of the film "Rebecca". I have no idea why as I cannot imagine there are similarities in the music.
Thal
One of my favorite LPs in my lost (and much lamented) collection was the Raymond Lewenthal recording of the Henselt PC (coupled with his pastiche version of the Liszt Totentanz.) It had a little supplemental bonus record in a pocket on the front which contained a lecture on both works. Apparently Henselt spent his time teaching in Russia more productively than just swatting flies. His pupil Nikolai Zverev was teacher to both Rachmaninoff and Scriabin, and, as Lewenthal pointed out, a Henseltian sonority pervades the piano writing of both composers.
Quote from: thalbergmad on Thursday 07 January 2010, 21:21
Quote from: Peter1953 on Thursday 07 January 2010, 20:44
Wow... what a trouvaille... the Bronsart is a brilliant piece of music! How is it possible that Bronsart has been so neglected? I wonder what else he composed and if anything else is available on CD.
I have never heard anything else by Bronsart, but I have heard a Waltz Caprice written by his wife that was sufficiently awful to have warranted divorce.
Thal
You have a way with words, thalberg, that makes me laugh!
And thanks, Peter, my heart IS full of joy.
Marks upto now: Cramer 5/10
Czerny: possibly a grower. 6/10
Ries: q. good pompous opening tutti and Beethoven quotation in first movement. 6/10
Clementi: note spinning. The orchestra, even i have to admit, a selfconfessed apologist for Vox orchestras, is execrable(no wonder Brana didnt want the rights to THIS Blumenthal performance, not that SHE does anythng wrong!).1/10.
Field: beautiful;different from all the Cramers and Hummels and Clementis, even his passagework "divine", as Liszt said. Pomposo tuttis, beautiful woodwind writing, and odd, effective modulations. Totally unique. 9/10
Hummel:Piano Concertino; run of mill.1/10
Moscheles:not ideal rep. for super-Ponti; too early for his WONDERFUL histrionics. Some nice tunes. 5 or 6.
Hiller: another winner. Is this on hyperion too?. When written? VERY adventurous for its(putative) time; mad, good themes(fast and slow); the speed Ponti plays is a medical marvel: VERY exciting.8/10
Litolff: um...are they Dutch national tunes?; q.good if in right mood for bombast, bluster and rodomontade: otherwise, rather awful and so bad is just bad; but slow movt a grower, i think. 2/10 or 6/10, depending on mood.
Kalkbrenner:average; but maybe a grower in parts. But when I compare these composers to Field, they all just sound the same(though i admit Hummel can occasionally write good tune); but the passagework hasnt the same mellifluous beauty and extravagance of Field. 3/10
Hummel: Les Adieux. Uninspiring, but q. like the grandioso opening tutti again. 2/10
NB. these marks are for the pieces themselves, not the performance; and am aware am being slightly reductive, and some may be growers! :)And... of course.. we all have our favourites and opinions... which i respect, seriously.
So the Ponti/Trochopoulos v. Marsheev and Hamelin "wars" continue... all in the most kind-spirited way, of course :)! Agreeing to differ.
Steve.
I find myself in general agreement with your marks, but I would have given the Czerny an 8/10 and both the Hummel -2/10. I must have listened to the Litolff in a particularly good mood & perhaps I was carried away with the superb playing as opposed to the music itself.
Hummel is about as warm as my garage is at the moment.
Thal
My four favourites are (1) Henselt 10/10 (how I adore this utterly stunning masterpiece; the ideal combination seems to me Ponti's playing and Hamelin's accompanying orchestra), (2) Moscheles 9/10 (ever such a moving melody), (3) Bronsart 9/10 (for me the find of the set) and (4) Rubinstein 8/10 (of course... but I still prefer Banowetz).
O yes, the tune of Chopin 11/10. He stands above all (I know, it's very personal).
So far the four most disappointing concertos for me are (1) Roussel 0/10 (just terrible), (2) Stavenhagen 2/10 (thanks to the adagio, otherwise 1/10, however, I'll give it another try in the far future), (3) Mayr 3/10 (totally uninspired) and (4) Mosonyi 3/10 (what a simplicity).
Yes Steve, Litolff used two for me recognizable Dutch tunes, but what a noisy, bombastic passages so now and then. Almost like his mirror image, Liszt. But I love Liszt and I don't love Litolff.
Steve and Thal, are you serious about these Hummel concertos? Steve, you say that Hummel occasionally writes good tunes, so what do you think of his opp. 85 & 89?
But I realize once more: everyone to his own taste.
Peter, good post!I actually quite LIKE the Stavehagen myself, again in a slightly bombastic way; it finishes very oddly too. Which bits u like best in the Bronsart?Which do you find the moving melody in the Moscheles? These ARE quirky recordings, but excelllent stuff and its heartening to see some favourable views on this forum.I shall review(and mark!) the next batch of the set forthwith.
Steve
What do you think of the Tchaikovsky disc (CD13)? Do you recognize PC No. 3, op. 75/79?
Pleasant surprises are Hiller's Konzertstück and Volkmann's Konzertstück. Both brilliant showpieces, with elegant, well-developed melodies. I think Hiller's op. 113 is the best piece he wrote for piano and orchestra, although his 2nd PC has its pleasing moments. And Volkmann's op. 42 is truly gorgeous. Hardly to believe it's from the same composer as the one who wrote such a nervous Cello Concerto. And then the Czerny. What a cheerful, sparkling piece, after some 8 minutes with a lovely dialogue between piano and violin!
Is there anybody who likes the Lalo? Or the Glazunov? If so, what do you think makes these works worth repeated listenings?
Now the Moscheles. During my years as a student I heard this concerto for the first time. It was a radio broadcast, and I made a tape recording. The only information I had that it was Moscheles PC in G minor, op. 58, performed by Ponti with the Philharmonia Hungarica. That's all. No idea it was his 3rd. It was "love at first hearing". The opening theme is very moving, in fact, the whole first movement is full of depth while shows at the same time brilliant piano writing. The lovely adagio leads directly into the thrilling 3rd movement, again full of magical piano writing, but also with emotional depth. There is hardly a role for the orchestra, but for me this Moscheles concerto has always been a favourite because of its touching melodies. Can you understand how happy I was when Hyperion started to release six other concerto's? But non of these other PC's offers a similar emotional depth, as I experience it.
There is a big difference between the Ponti and the Shelley. Of course the Hyperion disc (2002) offers absolutely superior technical quality, up to the very high standards of today. But it sounds all rather flat, if you compare it with the Ponti (although recorded in 1968). I prefer Ponti's piano playing far above Shelley's.
Another remarkable difference are the cuts taken in the first recording, something Jim already pointed out. Ponti / Shelley: 1st movement 11'55 / 15'06, 2nd 4'38 / 5'11 and 3rd 8'51 / 9'09. It makes the Ponti more compact, but nevertheless, I prefer the shorter concerto.
Please don't start a discussion... but I wonder how non-German speaking members pronounce Moscheles... ;)
I promise to not start a discussion, but i was having lunch with a German Pianist a few months ago who assured me that it was pronounced Mosh - el - ez. As for his concerti, I have always had a preference for 4th and 7th myself.
Further to my previous comments about Brilliant Classics and their packaging skills, they are going to replace the entire set as opposed to just disk 15 which i was missing. Therefore, if anyone wants the whole series minus this one disk, they are more than welcome to mine as "Brilliant" have not asked for the original delivery back.
Thal
Peter1953, for the simple reason that I was taking French when, as an American high school student I learned about Moscheles, for years I pronounced his name "Maw-SHELL." When I moved to Wisconsin from New York I was disheartened to hear public radio here pronounce Vaughan Williams's name as "Ralf" rather than as "Rafe."
Quote from: Steve B on Friday 08 January 2010, 15:10
Quote from: thalbergmad on Thursday 07 January 2010, 21:21
Quote from: Peter1953 on Thursday 07 January 2010, 20:44
[snipped]Litolff: um...are they Dutch national tunes?; q.good if in right mood for bombast, bluster and rodomontade: otherwise, rather awful and so bad is just bad; but slow movt a grower, i think. 2/10 or 6/10, depending on mood
It's the old Dutch national anthem ('Wien Neêrlands bloed door d'ad'ren vloeit'), written by the German (sic) Johan Wilms and in function between 1815 and 1932, when it was replaced by the significantly more awful Wilhelmus (which goes on about German blood and Spanish Kings and is probably only beaten in terms of sheer boredom by 'God Save the King')
Wow we are giving marks???
(and just into the new year).... well here goes..........
I would give ...
1. Scharwenka No. 4 100/10 :-) (simply mind blowing every time I hear it!!!!)
2. Paderewski 8/10
3. Medtner 9/10
4. Bortkiewicz 7/10
5. Stojowsky 8/10
6. Hahn 9/10
7. Saint-Saëns 9/10
8. Rubinstein 9/10 (Altough like Peter I prefer the Banowitcz!)
9. Ernst Mielck 8/10
10. Berwald 7/10.
The biggest disappointments have been
1. Nápravník & Blumenfeld 2/10 (very derivative.)
2. Sterndale Bennett 3/10
3. Vol. 47 and 48 (I felt was a Hyperion failure.... Sorry I know some of you love your Draeseke)
PS: Really thalbergmad you are just giving the collection away?? :)
Well, I was only giving marks on the "brilliant" series. I would probably be entering into dangerous ground if I were to start on the "Hyperion" and others.
Never heard of Ernst Mielck before, so investigation required.
I assume you missed the minus sign off the Hahn and your finger must have slipped with the Sterndale Bennett :o.
Yes, I have already given my incomplete set away. I was in a good mood after watching the darts.
Thal
While we're off the subject, what do forum members think of Scharwenka PCs 2 & 3 on Hyperion? They're easy to neglect in favour of Nos.1 & 4, but I'm just listening to No.2 - and wow, what a piece! 40 minutes of Romantic-era stuff, full of gorgeous tunes and orchestration. And meat! I feel that this is also a serious statement, of symphonic breadth. 10/10!
I actually have the original Collins release, which I must have obtained just before the label went belly-up. I have always loved the Scharwenka PC 2, and was so grateful that Ponti recorded the whole thing on that old Vox Candide LP so I could decide for myself whether Raymond Lewenthal's assessment of the entire concerto was correct (remember, his Columbia LP of the Rubinstein PC 4 was coupled with the severed finale of Scharwenka 2). He didn't think there were any "really big tunes" in any of the Scharwenka concertos except for that one movement. I beg to differ. ;D
P.S. Apparently Hyperion obtained the master of these performances, because I believe it's simply a re-release of the Collins CD with Tanyel and Strugala.
All four of his Piano Concertos (and his Symphony come to that) are seriously impressive works IMHO. It's a great shame that for some reason Xaver Scharwenka seems to have been, and continues to be, sneered at by the musical establishment. I suspect that the unashamedly populist First Piano Concerto and the fact that he made a lot of money from his Polish Dances, his concert tours and owning his Conservatory are to blame.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 11 January 2010, 20:21
While we're off the subject, what do forum members think of Scharwenka PCs 2 & 3 on Hyperion? They're easy to neglect in favour of Nos.1 & 4, but I'm just listening to No.2 - and wow, what a piece! 40 minutes of Romantic-era stuff, full of gorgeous tunes and orchestration. And meat! I feel that this is also a serious statement, of symphonic breadth. 10/10!
The second is my favourite of the Scharwenka concertos by some distance. Among its many, many highlights, my favourite is the grand way the piano is introduced into the first movement.
Also, I can't believe someone thinks the Napravnik concerto is derivative - particularly if you realise it was written in 1877.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Monday 11 January 2010, 22:46
All four of his Piano Concertos (and his Symphony come to that) are seriously impressive works IMHO. It's a great shame that for some reason Xaver Scharwenka seems to have been, and continues to be, sneered at by the musical establishment. I suspect that the unashamedly populist First Piano Concerto and the fact that he made a lot of money from his Polish Dances, his concert tours and owning his Conservatory are to blame.
Yes, it does seem as though being a good marketeer is certain to earn you disdain from the critics, doesn't it? Take Scharwenka, Raff or even Rachmaninov.
Quote from: Ilja on Monday 11 January 2010, 23:11Also, I can't believe someone thinks the Napravnik concerto is derivative - particularly if you realise it was written in 1877.
The Napravnik is a truly marvellous piece, IMHO, and damn near repertory quality. As you pointed out, Ilja, it seems to be derivative of
later works. ;D
Quote from: Ilja on Monday 11 January 2010, 23:11
The second is my favourite of the Scharwenka concertos by some distance. Among its many, many highlights, my favourite is the grand way the piano is introduced into the first movement.
The 4 Scharwenka concertos are my very favorite PC's. Each one is magnificent in its own way. That thunderous piano entrance in the first movement of #2 that Ilja refers to is IMO the most impressive of any PC I know. Someone once described this PC as "Chopin on steroids". I'm partial to minor keys and all 4 are in this mode, including my favorite key, c# minor (#3). I'll always regret that I wasn't able to attend a performance of #4 with Stephen Hough and the Indianapolis Symphony in 3/96 (I was living there at the time and had to move to PA to start a new job 2 weeks before the concert).
Well, I did get to see him play it in 1997 with Foster conducting the L.A. Phil.
Quote from: thalbergmad on Monday 11 January 2010, 20:02
Never heard of Ernst Mielck before, so investigation required.
I assume you missed the minus sign off the Hahn and your finger must have slipped with the Sterndale Bennett :o.
Yes, I have already given my incomplete set away. I was in a good mood after watching the darts.
Thal
No Dear Thalberg my fingers did NOT slip ;D with the Sterndale Bennett(I'm sorry, I just couldn't warm up to the concerto....orfor that matter any of the other 4)... As far as Hahn is concerned, that was the 1st vol of RPC I came across and I still love it. :)
Ernst Mielck (1877-1899) Finland seems to have died quite young barely (25) The concertpiece for Piano and orchestra is coupled with his symphony F minor - a brooding n beautiful work (Sterling)....some have speculated as to what might have happened to Sibelius if the serious competition Mielck represented had been allowed to mature and he is also called the the "Finnish Schubert" and referred to as "Max Bruch's favorite pupil".
Thanks FBerwald, I will see if I can find a recording. Sounds interesting.
Thal
Quote from: thalbergmad on Tuesday 12 January 2010, 08:36
Thanks FBerwald, I will see if I can find a recording. Sounds interesting.
Thal
The symphony is also available on a CD from Ondine, together with a piece for violin and orchestra, if I recall correctly.
I agree, the Napravnik is the OPPOSITE of derivative: one of the movements(forget which, at the moment) foreshadows Prokofiev in its toccata-like spikiness and relentlessness; reminds too of Kabalevsky's beautiful "Youth"(3RD) Concerto. Anyone remember the LP of the Kabalevsky,c/w Rubinstein 3rd, with , I think, Robert Preston on short-lived Ember Classics series?(they also did a mad Rubi PC 1,played by Michael Fardink-there's two intermittent but forgotten champions of the unsungs!:)
Regarding, favourite Scharwenka PC, i shall revisit No4.but I find no. 3 to be PERFECT in melody and structure; every melody(of the whole piece!),{ except(possibly), in movt 1, a subsidiary but beautiful second theme, (not the actual second subject!never heard again):)} is based on the opening Brahms PC-like flourish. The first movt 2nd subject (proper) is ineffably halting and therefore moving; and is recalled at the end of the slow movt; and there is that sad Polish dance in the finale, which returns, with full circularity to the opening Brahmsian(or does it predate Brahms:)!?) flourish. Perhaps, Jim, u can elucidate further on the cyclic nature of the themes:)!
And yes, No.2 is GREAT fun; those tuttis are the maddest of ANY late classical/Romantic first movt tuttis: pompous but out of control(and thats not just the Hamburg Symphony strings:)!); but to me, No3. is simply perfect, a masterpiece, sheer economy, precision and emotional literacy; the equal of ANY famous, sung piano concerto. Steve
Thank you, FBerwald. What I've selected from the discussion since we're off the subject, is Ernst Mielck. Never heard of him before, but after listening to the audio samples at jpc.de I wonder whether Mielck was the Finnish Stolpe? A genius, who died before his maturity.
What to do? The Sterling couples the symphony and the Konzertstück for piano and orchestra, op. 9 (what a lovely slow movement, so to hear), and the Ondine couples the symphony and the Konzertstück for violin and orchestra, op. 8. Just listen to the audio extracts, and you will probably like to have both Konzertstücke. What's the alternative?
Once again, listen to the first seconds of the Tchaikovsky disc (CD13) and tell me what you hear and what Brilliant says you can hear. ???
Thanks, peter; this is OUTRAGEOUS. I hear a seldom played, minor(:)) Tchaikovsky Piano Concerto, beginning with a littleknown piano solo:):).Seriously, though; this isnt good enough. Thats 2 copies(peter 1953's and mine) with the wrong concerto for the first 3 tracks of cd 13; plus someone said they got 2 of the same disc(?thalberg); plus my Mozart(who?:)) set had a gouge in one disc of the original set and the replacement set; plus I have seen at least one other complaint re Brilliant on the net. Ok, they are cheap. But it is just rubbish. Luckily, i have the correct(ie as named on the sleeve) recording of the first 3 tracks on the original Ponti LP and on a VoxBox.
Massive prizes for what piece is on cd 13 tracks 1 to 3 :)If you don't get it, perhaps you have gone TOO far(if that were possible) down the unknown footpath:))!)
Don't keep those of us in suspense who aren't going to get the set. How did Brilliant screw up? What is the concerto and what is it supposed to be? I think this is kind of like when I had an old Nonesuch LP of Handel's Water Music, but the liner notes on the back were for Hummel's Mandolin Concerto!
Quote from: Steve B on Tuesday 12 January 2010, 20:59
I agree, the Napravnik is the OPPOSITE of derivative: one of the movements(forget which, at the moment) foreshadows Prokofiev in its toccata-like spikiness and relentlessness; reminds too of Kabalevsky's beautiful "Youth"(3RD) Concerto. Anyone remember the LP of the Kabalevsky,c/w Rubinstein 3rd, with , I think, Robert Preston on short-lived Ember Classics series?(they also did a mad Rubi PC 1,played by Michael Fardink-there's two intermittent but forgotten champions of the unsungs!:)
Regarding, favourite Scharwenka PC, i shall revisit No4.but I find no. 3 to be PERFECT in melody and structure; every melody(of the whole piece!),{ except(possibly), in movt 1, a subsidiary but beautiful second theme, (not the actual second subject!never heard again):)} is based on the opening Brahms PC-like flourish. The first movt 2nd subject (proper) is ineffably halting and therefore moving; and is recalled at the end of the slow movt; and there is that sad Polish dance in the finale, which returns, with full circularity to the opening Brahmsian(or does it predate Brahms:)!?) flourish. Perhaps, Jim, u can elucidate further on the cyclic nature of the themes:)!
And yes, No.2 is GREAT fun; those tuttis are the maddest of ANY late classical/Romantic first movt tuttis: pompous but out of control(and thats not just the Hamburg Symphony strings:)!); but to me, No3. is simply perfect, a masterpiece, sheer economy, precision and emotional literacy; the equal of ANY famous, sung piano concerto. Steve
I remember those LPs, Steve. I used to have both of them. I don't know what the label was called over there, but it was on the Orion label here. The finale of Rubi 3 had massive cuts taken out (which, in some respects, did the movement a favor). The Rubi 1 was mislabeled as being in E Major instead of E Minor. I still can't figure out how that mistake was made by the supposedly musically literate people who produced the album and wrote the liner notes.
Scharwenka PC 3 is a great work, too. I don't know what second subject in the first movement you're referring to when you say it only appears once. The movement is essentially monothematic, Steve. The second subject is simply a major key, cantabile version of the first theme. It appears twice. The closing material (the theme with the triangle) also appears twice. That opening theme appears in numerous transformations throughout the work. The first theme of the finale is a major key transformation of it, if I recall correctly. I'll have to give the whole thing another listen to some time.
As for the Napravnik, it's the first movement that has that motoric, Prokofiev-like quality. I can't recall anything quite like it in all of the Russian music I know that preceded it.
My copy of the box also has Tchaik PC1 instead of PC3 at the start of CD13!! A massive screw-up appears to be on the cards here...
Dear Peter1953,
It seems a bit confusing... I have the Ernst Mielck- Sterling which has the concertpiece for piano and orchestra. The symphony is played quite nicely. I have no idea about the Ondine version, but the reviews are all positive. From the soundclip the violin concertpiece sounds sublime and beautiful. The piano concertpiece has a more folksy feel to it. Its your choice ultimately....
........while we are on the subject of unknown romantics have you (or anyone) heard of the Swedish composer Ruben Liljefors. I have a recording of his Piano concerto in F minor and a Symphony in E flat major. The piano concerto is like the Grieg... only a very laid-back Grieg .......a Grieg possibly on a quiet afternoon after a hearty Lunch by the lake listening to Debussy's Prélude à l'après-midi d'un faune!!!! (Sorry ...got a bit carried away..but thats exactly how this music sounds!!!)
Quote from: Steve B on Tuesday 12 January 2010, 20:59
I agree, the Napravnik is the OPPOSITE of derivative: one of the movements(forget which, at the moment) foreshadows Prokofiev in its toccata-like spikiness and relentlessness; reminds too of Kabalevsky's beautiful "Youth"(3RD) Concerto. Anyone remember the LP of the Kabalevsky,c/w Rubinstein 3rd
I absolutely love the Kabalevsky Piano concerto no 3 (youth)...Its Funny but has anyone noticed that the main theme of the second movement is EXACTLY THE SAME as second section of Dvoraks famous Humoreske Op. 101 No.7. It was my Piano teacher, the Late Cyrus Panthaky who pointed it out to me. Nevertheless its one of the great fun concertos I never get tired of listening to! :)
Quote from: FBerwald on Wednesday 13 January 2010, 09:16
I absolutely love the Kabalevsky Piano concerto no 3 (youth).
Me too. It's just so....good. :P Definitely a piece I'd buy another recording of, but I hardly need another R-K PC, good as it is...
Quote
Its Funny but has anyone noticed that the main theme of the second movement is EXACTLY THE SAME as second section of Dvoraks famous Humoreske Op. 101 No.7. It was my Piano teacher, the Late Cyrus Panthaky who pointed it out to me. Nevertheless its one of the great fun concertos I never get tired of listening to! :)
Never noticed that. Will have to check it out.
This should be a new thread but a bit nervous to start it >:( :), ie. "works by sung composers that deserve to be unsung". But the cd of this series with the Liszt and Liszt arrangements of others' works has three ABSOLUTELY EXECRABLE pieces at the outset of the disc:
1.L's transcription of Schubert's fantasy on a theme from Beethoven's "Ruins of Athens"
2.His "version" of Weber's Polonaise Brilliante (L'Hilarite)
3. Liszt's own Concerto Pathetique(orchestral version)
They are ALL awful, IMHO. Sheer empty repetition, for the sake of virtuosity. Liszt, at his most bombastic, can be truly BAD(NOT bad its good!:).
The disc is saved by the last piece: L's better transcription of Schubert's Wanderer Phantasy; with its magnificent and exciting final fugue.
And Louie Lortie(the only non Vox pianist here; its a Chandos re-issue) just hasnt the power for this repertoire. Ponti can carry off stuff like this eg .the Totentanz.
Steve
I was unimpressed with those as well. Not exactly Liszt at his best. I am far from against virtuoso displays, but these are not good examples of what can be done.
I like Liszt, but have never warmed to his works for piano and orchestra (apart from Totentanz), including the triangle concerto.
Good idea for a new thread, but I can see it causing trouble. Oft played works that i feel inferior makes my blood boil.
Thal
QuoteThey are ALL awful, IMHO. Sheer empty repetition, for the sake of virtuosity
Go figure, I adore the Weber-Liszt Polacca Brillante, always have. My current shelf recording of it is Benjamin Frith on Naxos. Just plain fun, and Liszt adds a little oomph to Weber's original. Something for everyone in this world!
David
Huh. I also love all the Liszt stuff (I have the complete piano and orchestra music on Hyperion, 4 discs worth). The Weber is eternally catchy, and the Beethoven one, while not Liszt's best, certainly could be never be called "ABSOLUTELY EXECRABLE"...
As do I - Liszt is my absolute favourite composer, bar none!
I must add, that I think "Benediction de la dieu dans la solitude" from "Harmonies poetiques et religieuses" has one of the most sublimely beautiful melodies in all music. "Orpheus"(symphonic poem) is also lovely; its just that Liszt, at his worst, can be so bombastic its not even fun!
And, Thal, yes, I agree SOME virtuoso displays WORK; I am certainly not against them per se, or else i should be a total hypocrite:).
It just seems wrong, or unbalanced(if you like) that truly powerful works like Scharwenka 3, Paderewski are so relatively unknown whilst "Liszt is Liszt" so is ok(at the least!) to good(though I recognise, most of the particular works in question arent often performed or recorded). The examples of (non-Liszt or sung names) I have given combine passages of sheer virtuosity with depth, conciseness(sometimes!:)) and memorable tunes. Again, usual caveat applies: these are PERSONAL opinions.:) Steve
Steve! Have you got the Rufinatscha PC yet? I have yet to see you participate in that thread, and I'm dying of curiosity to find out how it impresses you! :D
Jim, No; cant afford cds at the moment(:(The Brilliant Concerti box was a present from the boyfriend!).
Re: THE concerto box. Are the piano glissandi near the start of the Liszt Totentanz in the score? (does anyone know?). I seem to remember reading here that another pianist had done his own version of this piece; so has Ponti done so too?(wouldnt surprise me!:)).
Sorry, if I offended u,Jonathan; but there ARE a couple of Liszt pieces I like(see above post).I DO actually quite like the Totentanz but it doesnt SCARE me ;shouldnt a Dance of Death, incorporating variations on Dies Irae, really FRIGHTEN one?!Its enjoyable though!6/10
And THAT big, luscious grand theme that ends D'Albert number 2. It EQUALS a Rach big romantic theme; so memorable and moving.D'Albert overall 9/10(big tune 10/10)
And the Raff "ode to Spring"- perfect slow, longbreathed theme to start, then a lot of (pleasant, I quite like it!) whiffling and a storm in a teacup. Sorry, Mark >:(.
Lovely slow tune 9/10; overall, 6/10
Berwald PC-mad as a hatter; played mad as a hatter. 10/10!
Bronsart 9/10(Ponti actually UNDERstates the slow movment, I think:)!)11/10 for the combined tarantella/Meistersinger type counterpoint in finale, one of most joyful, camp yet beautiful bits in ALL music; AND great contrapuntal skill in combining such seemingly incommensurate melodies(though harmonically they msut be similar- ?Jim)
Alkan. Concerto da camera(number?). Good for conciseness(one movement,a-B-a), with comes-with-the-territory grand opening tutti. 7/10
Schumann Introduction and allegro(the earlier op.92 one). Listen to Ponti's bi-polar playing(it is thought Schumann was, or was labelable as, bi-polar); I think Schumann would have thought it SO idiomatic, the Florestan and Eusebius: the love-filled reveries changing, in quicksilver fashion, to frenzied, exhausting lunging forward. 10/10.
The marks-reductive, I know, but give a (PERSONAL) idea only- refer to the MUSIC primarily.
Any other gradings/remarks?
Take care
Steve
Steve
The b-f should have sent away for the Rufinatscha, since I'd bet bucks to beans you already had the original releases of everything in that set. If I'm not mistaken Ponti recorded the Alkan Concerto da camera #2 in C-sharp Minor. The dead giveaway is if it's scored for strings only. The first one (in A Minor), scored for full orchestra, was only recently rediscovered and recorded for Hyperion in their RPC Series (coupled with #2 and the Henselt). And I mentioned previously that Raymond Lewenthal produced a pastiche version of the Liszt Totentanz cobbled together from sketches the composer made for an earlier version of the Totentanz along with bits of his unfinished De profundis concertante fantasy. As far as the finale of the Bronsart is concerned, it's more like the composer reharmonizes fragments of the tarantella theme along the melodic contour of the first movement theme in the solo cello.
Hi All,
Perhaps I can clarify this Totentanz business. There are actually 3 versions of the piece - the earliest is held by someone who is a private collector and is unwilling to share the score (where have we heard that before?) and dates from 1839. The second version (which is the 1853 version includes a large amount of material from the abandoned (and very nearly complete) De Profundis concerto work from 1834/5 (as JimL said before). (Incidentally, I think this work works better without Leslie Howard's completion of the final few bars - Stephen Mayer's ASV recording is, IMHO more poetic and graceful).
Anyway, Totentanz, in the 1853 was at one time looked at by Busoni and has been described as the Busoni version. This version includes 1 ossia variation (recorded by Leslie Howard in his complete set of works for piano and orchestra). The final version from 1859 is the one which we all know. The glissandi mentioned earlier occur in both the later 2 versions. I'm not familiar with the Lewenthal recording so I don't know if it is the Busoni version or if he tinkered with it himself! (For those who don't know, I am CD reviewer for the UK Liszt society).
SteveB, don't worry, you haven't offended me in the slightest!
In the liner notes for the old Columbia LP (coupled with the Henselt), Lewenthal claimed to have pasted together the version he played himself, using, I would assume, the 1853 and 1859 versions.
Really? 1839? That's pretty surprising considering his (un)familiarity with the orchestra at the time. Sure it wasn't 1849?
And yeah, the whole "in the hands of a private collector" thing sucks. x.x
Hi TerraEpon,
Just done a bit more research and he planned it in 1839 but wrote it out in 1849. Faulty memory alert on my part...!
Some of the other orchestral works from the early 1840s are actually pretty well orchestrated (according to those who know about such things!) and it seems he sort of lost his nerve later on and went on to start using Raff and Conradi as assistants. :)
Minor correction on my part. The commentary by Lewenthal in which he describes the process of cobbling together his hybrid version of the Totentanz was on the little bonus record in the sleeve on the front. He also included musical examples of his work (such as dispensing with the opening of the 1859 version and using bells and trombones to intone the "Dies irae" theme). I'm assuming that that opening is from 1853. He also interpolated two "De profundis" episodes, including a tutti statement of that theme juxtaposed against the "Dies irae" in the piano part.
UPDATE:
. Concert fantasia( Tchaik); 2 good tunes; rest pretty awful(the third part of the first movt is a note-by-note repeat of part 1, with a barnstorming very long cadenza in the middle. The lovely little sad tune is nice, in the second movt(there are only 2), and comes back, unexpectedly, at the end. So- good bits 8/10; bad bits-1/10
Goetz piano Concerto. That opening movement main theme, though really obsessed on by Goetz, is so elegant, poignant and lovely, so i don,t mind its single-minded repetition; slow movement atmospheric; last movement unmemorable (to me): 9/10 for first movement, 6/10 for remainder.
Sinding: good main theme in first movement but not upto the surging Sinding I like, eg of Piano Sonata. Overall: 4/10 to 5/10. About 5 cds to go!
Any other updates on views/marks/ other performances of same repertoire?
Steve
Not part of the Brilliant series, but i have just spent a charming morning listening to the Hurlstone Concerto.
Incredibly beautiful music well worthy of a revival.
Thal
You're absolutely right, Thal. Very undeservedly neglected, but what a wonderful music he wrote. I think Hurlstone deserves an own thread.
Tiny query re message 14 - I did not know that Ms Lautenbacher had ever recorded the Goldmark Vln Concerto, either cut or uncut - Steve B are you please able to supply chapter and verse for the recording - grateful thanks.
Sorry, omivore; it is Ruggiero Ricci, c/w a piece for violinand harp and orchestra by Spohr, on Turnabout. Sorry, should have checked my facts:). Though it IS cut, because i have a newer Naxos version with a whole xtra development section in the first movement and one or two other extra bits!
Are u fan of lautenbacher and/or Vox?
Steve
An extra development section in the first movement of the Goldmark A Minor VC? News to me. I always thought that after the exposition there is an extended fugal transition/development (which doesn't involve the soloist at all) leading back to the recap. My old Milstein LP cut a section from the finale right after the cadenza, but I have since heard the work in its entirety.
Quote from: Steve B on Wednesday 13 January 2010, 00:14
Massive prizes for what piece is on cd 13 tracks 1 to 3 :)If you don't get it, perhaps you have gone TOO far(if that were possible) down the unknown footpath:))!)
Just bought the box today, this 13th cd was the second I listened to. I actually did need 10 seconds or so to get over my confusion and pinpoint the right piece. A 'brilliant' joke, or a rather unknown, second work-over of the 3rd Tchaikovsky concerto by Taneyev...? ;D
Together with Hyperion's volume 50, I reckon the joke is on us (and, above all, on Anton Rubinstein), and we'll be haunted by this work for until the end of days... Well, it could've been worse... It could've been Herz! :P
Loved the Field No. 2 performance, and the Tchaikovsky concert fantasy as well. Such a shame about the quality of a lot of the recordings, but there's a lot to admire. It's just the Barber and the Roussel concertos that don't agree with me.
The Hurlstone piano concerto was recently mentioned. This is currently available in HMV as part of a two set issue, fifty minutes a side and bearing in mind these are old recordings they retail at a staggering £30
Quote from: Kriton on Tuesday 27 April 2010, 17:56
Quote from: Steve B on Wednesday 13 January 2010, 00:14
Massive prizes for what piece is on cd 13 tracks 1 to 3 :)If you don't get it, perhaps you have gone TOO far(if that were possible) down the unknown footpath:))!)
Just bought the box today, this 13th cd was the second I listened to. I actually did need 10 seconds or so to get over my confusion and pinpoint the right piece. A 'brilliant' joke, or a rather unknown, second work-over of the 3rd Tchaikovsky concerto by Taneyev...? ;D
Together with Hyperion's volume 50, I reckon the joke is on us (and, above all, on Anton Rubinstein), and we'll be haunted by this work for until the end of days... Well, it could've been worse... It could've been Herz! :P
Loved the Field No. 2 performance, and the Tchaikovsky concert fantasy as well. Such a shame about the quality of a lot of the recordings, but there's a lot to admire. It's just the Barber and the Roussel concertos that don't agree with me.
I'm going to have to listen to that CD to get the reference to Rubinstein here, aren't I :)
Eric
Anton Runinstein. No mention so far of his Concertstuck or his Fantasia in C. These were issued on the Marco Polo label along with his piano concertos and symphonies. I recently spoke with the wholesaler about these as I see all the above mentioned works around either new or second hand except these. They told me that they have three copies in stock and they have been there for a long long time.
Does anyone know of a recording of his piano octet in D Op9 ?
Yes, coupled with his Quintett, op. 55, performed by Consortium Classicum, on the Orfeo label (2004).
Quote from: giles.enders on Sunday 04 July 2010, 12:14Does anyone know of a recording of his piano octet in D Op9 ?
Octet! Octet! It was the Piano
Octet that is a transcription of one of his early lost concertos! I thought it was a quintet, but I knew it was the Op. 9!
QuoteNo mention so far of his Concertstuck or his Fantasia in C. These were issued on the Marco Polo label along with his piano concertos and symphonies. I recently spoke with the wholesaler about these as I see all the above mentioned works around either new or second hand except these. They told me that they have three copies in stock and they have been there for a long long time.
I believe virtually the whole of the Marco Polo and Naxos catalogue can be downloaded from www.emusic.com (http://www.emusic.com), for a modest monthly membership fee.
It certainly can but some of us like the cd in it's original packaging.
As with many MP discs, it can be had for reletively cheap on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/offer-listing/B0000045TT/ref=dp_olp_all_mbc?ie=UTF8&qid=1278359849&sr=8-2&condition=all
Those two works, in particular are among my favorite non-concerto concertante works for piano! My thanks to John Boyer for sending me a copy of his booklet when I ordered a CD without it!
I have a question about one of the works in the box set - I was listening to the Berwald on the way to work this morning and I noticed it's listed as the Piano Concerto no.1 but I can't find any evidence of any other concerti on line!
Does anyone here know anything about another piano concerto (or more) by Berwald?
Quote from: Jonathan on Tuesday 06 July 2010, 18:16
I have a question about one of the works in the box set - I was listening to the Berwald on the way to work this morning and I noticed it's listed as the Piano Concerto no.1 but I can't find any evidence of any other concerti on line!
Does anyone here know anything about another piano concerto (or more) by Berwald?
I don't
think there is, but may be mistaken. Then again, I'm reminded of, say, Martinu whose flute sonata, viola sonata, piano quartet, piano sonata, ... are all always referred to as "no. 1" despite the absence (to my knowledge) of "no. 2"s. (At least according to http://www.martinu.cz/katalog/martinu/catlist.php (http://www.martinu.cz/katalog/martinu/catlist.php) . Though that catalog _doesn't_ so refer to them- it just confirms that there isn't a "no. 2"..., the recordings I know of do.)
In my experience enumerations mean little unless supported by detail.
Sometimes romantic composers express an opinion about their earlier works through enumerations on manuscript title pages (e.g., Saint-Saens' Organ symphony labeled as his second).
Sometimes early publishers' enumerations differ (e.g., Beethoven's op. 21 as Symphony II by Cianchettini & Sperati, 1809).
Sometimes a composer expresses his or her larger aspirations by labeling a first work -- which turns out to be their only such work -- as number 1 (most recently I've seen this in the MS of Melartin's piano sonata, op 111). A publisher might do something similar for commercial reasons.
No idea in this particular case whether no. 2 or no. 3 (or "door-number-4") maintains; not sure where Berwald's manuscripts mostly are (if there is a "mostly"), or if this is a more recent tradition and not a 19th-century one. (Though I should hesitate to speak of a tradition in regards a rarely played work in regards to which I am not even sure when it _was_ first published. Written 1855; for a pupil of the composer's; check. Published by Barenreiter in 1974 as volume 6 of the complete works. (I think my local university library has this. I haven't been there in awhile, but I can be there sometime soonish I hope and check to see if the preface says whether there was a score published prior to this or whether this was the first known-to-the-editors publication of the work. Which still won't resolve the "no. 1" issue since the Barenreiter says nothing about "no. 1" either- it's just his piano concerto, the only known one by him - I think, unless there's some known lost or partially surviving one or something. That would be interesting, really. Just as with the fragmentary A major piano quintet (which I've heard once and enjoyed in its Naxos recording.)
Eric
I've seen the term "No. 1" applied to the Goldmark A minor Violin Concerto. Trouble is, there is actually a "No. 2" in A Major out there somewhere, but nobody seems to know where. Maybe Tobias has some info.
Quote from: JimL on Wednesday 07 July 2010, 06:12
I've seen the term "No. 1" applied to the Goldmark A minor Violin Concerto. Trouble is, there is actually a "No. 2" in A Major out there somewhere, but nobody seems to know where. Maybe Tobias has some info.
I'd heard it was in C Minor - maybe. Hrm. I think. I have heard more definitely ( :) ) that efforts to find it have so far turned up (as of a few years ago, though...) nothing at all.
Still, as with the Rufinatscha lost symphonies, it might turn up, one doesn't change the numbering just because it's lost...