Last year I read an article on classical CD sales. Due to various factors such as digital downloads, piracy, disinterest, etc., a CD could easily end up on Billboard's Classical Top 10 list having sold less than 100 copies in a week. So, out of curiosity, how many copies of the average unsung CD (actual CDs, not digital downloads) get sold within the first few years of release? I know "average" is a difficult thing to measure, because some recordings will be more popular than others. Thus, for instance, take Hyperion's recording of the Brull Piano Concertos--how many copies do you think it sold? Or does anyone know the actual number? Thanks!
One person who could reply with an authoritative answer would be Martin Anderson of Toccata (a member of this forum). Whether such (sensitive ???) information would be released however is another matter ;D
Maybe my information is out of date now but I understand that a small label without the marketing power of Naxos, say, would do well to sell 2,000 copies of a CD in the first two or three years and 1,000 to 1,500 would be average. I imagine that Hyperion, Chandos and cpo would sell more - and would probably need to.
Yes, I believe that in case of unsung music selling of 500 copies during a year is quite good result. And in most cases shops are ordering very carefully lesser-well known music in rather small numbers.
So, for example here in Poland/Warsaw it is rather difficult to find news from Acte Prealable or DUX with unsung music. That means that, much to great surprise of the shops' owners, there are listeners intersted in such music.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Saturday 14 April 2012, 16:12
Maybe my information is out of date now but I understand that a small label without the marketing power of Naxos, say, would do well to sell 2,000 copies of a CD in the first two or three years and 1,000 to 1,500 would be average.
If I think about this too much it makes me very, very sad and also little upset and angry. In a world with billions of people, to think that only 3000-4000 people would buy some cds is disturbing. I guess in a way it's a miracle that some things get recorded at all. To think that my love of something like the Schmidt 4th is shared by an extremely minute fraction of the population makes me feel so isolated.
Do what I do. Join FB and find some of the unsung stuff that's uploaded on YouTube. Then share it. I get a fair number of "likes" from my friends, if they catch it before it sinks down too far.
Less than 5% of music lovers listen to classical music. And many of the 5% don't venture beyond Beethoven or Brahms. I remember when Gorecki's 3rd Symphony topped the music charts. Does anyone remember how many copies that sold?
How many people will buy the new Dutton release of the Catoire/Sherwood Piano Concertos? How many people have even heard about it that aren't members of UC? We are in the minority and our numbers are declining.
On a positive note, the internet means that the ability of these small labels to get known about far and wide is increasing. Living in Japan, I can't imagine how hard it would be for me to find out about these releases without, let alone go and order them. And while pop fans seem to pirate all their music these days, I think classical listeners prize rare releases enough to spend a lot of money on them (I know I and a lot of people on here do), so it is probably far less in decline than pop.
I once heard from someone in the know that the big HMV on Oxford St in London (the one between Oxford Circus and Tottenham Court Road, rather than the one near Bond St that isn't there any more!) deemed things sufficiently popular to stock them physically in the classical department if they sold even two copies a year!
I'm with Jimfin on this and not really despondent about the situation because I really do believe that the internet is a very powerful positive force, at least when it comes to classical music recordings. Not only do sites like this "spread the word", but music labels can sell their product, both physical CDs and downloadable tracks, much more easily over the internet then they can by engaging wholesalers to sell in penny numbers to a dwindling band of shops.
One thing we will have to face up to, though, is that the days of the CD itself are numbered. The economics of selling recordings as downloadable tracks are so much more attractive to recording labels than manufacturing CDs and printing booklets that I'm sure that's the way of the future. Personally, I have no real problem with that, especially if its the only way that new repertoire will still become available, although I know that's not a view shared by all.
I am learning to accept that downloads are the way forward. I mostly buy CDs now, but occasionally download from iTunes if I want something sufficiently quickly. The only thing I miss is the booklets with information in them. Some companies, like Toccata, offer them online, but I don't think it's at all universal. Of course, this has never really applied to pop.
I can say that the internet has just about saved the unsung repertoire. The present proliferation of new recordings would be inconceivable without a medium to bring together an extremely geographically fragmented customer base. A positive side-effect of the disappearance of the CD will be that it will become even cheaper to produce new recordings, since the margins on downloads are so much higher than on CDs.
I can't imagine an online music retailer not going to downloadable MP3s. Just think of the money that a small dealer has to sink into inventory - not knowing if this particular unsung/unknown CD will sell or not?
As for the booklets, I used to try to stumble through them, but the type is so small, I can't even read it anymore. Wouldn't it be nice if they were available in electronic format, such as Kindle or Nook or as PDF files where one could download them and then increase the font size for something one is comfortable with?? Perhaps even make the booklet available free before you buy the music.......
Jerry
That's precisely what Chandos and Hyperion do, of course.
How soon will all music be available 'in the cloud' anyway, with subscription being the means of payment?
I'm a satisfied subscriber to Spotify (http://www.spotify.com) which works on that basis and has a surprising number of unsungs amongst the composers which it offers, although the recent withdrawal of Chandos albums is a blow. Systems like Sonos (http://www.sonos.com/), which piggyback on your wi-fi connection, mean that you can stream such services to any room in the house and in pretty good quality sound. Works for me, anyway, although it doesn't replace my own collection, needless to say.
Yes, the problem currently is the very restricted range of music available. I was just wondering whether (and when) the whole industry might go this way, that's all...
I can relate some personal experience. On my label one will find discs devoted to the music of Lopatnikoff (Third Symphony and Violin Concerto); Lees (Piano Concerto No.1)-Gold (Piano Concerto); Chamber music by Kent Kennan; chamber music of Kathryn Mishell, etc. I think we sold about 150 copies of the Lopatnikoff.
Over the years I have offered, via the major email lists, a fairly substantial amount of music by the likes of composers Lees; Harris; Mennin; Lourie; Kilpatrick; Goeb; Mathias; Kirchner; Whithorne; Hill; Rochberg; Blackwood; Casella; Creston; Haieff; LoPresti; Hausserman; Hadley; Gould; Weinberger; Einem; Clapp; Cooke; Cowell; DelloJoio; Zimmer; Rubin; Robert R. Bennett; Richard R. Bennett; etc. I think maybe one or two offerings were downloaded more that 80 times...and that is for free! I should add that I have found many who have downloaded my restorations and uploaded them elsewhere. That doesn't bother me, but I would like to get some credit for my work.
I would wager, that there are probably no more than 500 or so classical music lovers world wide that have any knowledge, and/or interest in anything other than the standard repertoire.
For me, the ultimate irony in all of this is that there are still some one of a kind broadcasts locked away in archives, never to be heard again. The laws prevent their being made available, because our laws are concerned with protecting those money making things like Mickey Mouse. So, those few of us who would like to hear some obscure Finnish Symphony, locked away in Finnish radio, can't. Further, I wonder what treasures could be found in the Austrian Radio archives which survived the Second World War relatively intact.
At least the Canadians have some common sense and just put the stuff up on the web so anyone can hear it.
I have my own theories about why there are so few who have interest in unsung composers, but it seems pretty clear to me that not only is the number small, it getting smaller, not unlike those who have interest in even the standard repertoire.
So, a record company cannot survive recording even the standards today...and for sure if they have to pay union scale. And, if you see something on this list that interests you, grab it while you can. And if you have some local orchestra broadcasting a work by some obscure composer, record it and upload so the few that would like to hear it, will be able to. So many of the broadcast recordings that survive, survive because some music lover recorded them and shared.
Karl
It might be a good chance to mention that I recently looked at the second hand CD section in Waterstone's, Gower Street, and it was full of unsung CDs. I bought about twenty, despite having to bring them back with me to Japan, and would have bought more, were it not for the fact that about 100 more were already in my collection. Anyone who's in London, do have a look!
Even if a lot has been written on the end of the CD and everything heading towards download, my recent experience has been that there's nothing quite like the physical object in one's hand to show to someone, to be able to make a spontaneous sale.
Another aspect I now appreciate is having a CD orientated around the theme of a particular instrument, and another little point, to keep things economical, that really applies to local conditions (ie. in my case French postal tarifs!) is to consider the weight of the total package when designing the booklet and choosing the cover/case format.
In the last couple of years I've been directly involved in the production of two different CDs. The first of these was born out of the initiative of an oboist who had had a concerto written for him by NZ composer Edwin Carr. This work was put on the CD in its version for oboe and piano with the primary goal of getting the work known. It's since been performed with orchestra. The programme of the CD was therefore constructed around chamber works including oboe from composers with a NZ association. This CD was replicated at 500 copies and as a French/German production, with myself in France, was titled Diversions - Autour du hautbois (http://muse.blumlein.net/021_gb.html). The sponsor of the CD and myself, between the two of us, have sold probably 120 copies mostly to our own contacts, this includes copies I've sold to specialist CD shops for reselling (which they have done). Beyond that some of the participating musicians may have sold their own copies but I don't have details. I've given away several dozen copies as promotional copies eg. to musicians who might be interested in performing the repertoire, or libraries etc. In any event the bulk of the replication has dispersed without going through a classic distribution channel.
Not much was made of the NZ connection, that may have helped me sell a few copies here, and so far only a couple of dozen copies have even gone to NZ. Overall I consider the CD a success in helping to get the music out there, and the instrumental theme is something I'd definitely aim to do again. We produced a 12 page booklet for the Diversions CD, bi-lingual in French and English, reducing multiple composer and musician biographies, and programme notes to the minimum - it weighed 107 grams. La Poste has since ditched their economy post, and to send anything between 100g - 250g to the other side of the world now costs €5.60, a considerable addition to the cost with the currency conversion. That's something I certainly took into account with the CD that came after, going for a lightweight Digipak format. I've got a website so all the info is on a special page there for anyone interested in finding out about the individual works.
Although I can't prove it, I'm not so sure that our numbers are shrinking. It'll probably never be huge but the world has gotten very small - this forum attests to that fact. Websites like YouTube - for all it's bad things - surely has exposed lots of people to more and more concert music. If you don't believe that, look at some of the concert music that's been posted for several years and see how many hits there are.
It seems to me if you are a really serious concert music lover and have been for years, you eventually have to get tired of the workhorses just as we all tire of popular songs after hearing them for 4 months. And you start wandering into the less heard, less played "sung" - those that are kind of out on the fringes. Next thing you know, you start looking for new names- and if they fit the time period you're particularly fond of, you start collecting them.
The problem that I see is, there is now SO much out there (not enough from our perspective, of course) that many people simply can't afford to indulge themselves in everything they'd like to have. And that's one reason I think downloads will become more and more popular. Who can argue with a half price album? And then a 20 cent CD to burn it to and you have it......Double your collection for the same money. And to be honest, most of us can't hear the difference.
Off to hear Bruckner 8 this morning in Minneapolis ::) ::) ::)
Jerry
A 1987 Interview of Benjamin Lees by broadcaster Bruce Duffie (http://www.bruceduffie.com/lees.html (http://www.bruceduffie.com/lees.html)) touches on a number of topics from recent UC threads, including this one:
Quote
BD: You do expect your music to last, though, don't you?
BL: We always say we hope. There are no guarantees, because if you examine the golden age of the nineteenth century, the composers who finally emerged were merely a handful compared to the number of composers who were actually writing then.
BD: Of course.
BL: And do you happen to know how many active composers there are today?
BD: I've heard several astronomical figures bandied about — thirty-five thousand, forty thousand.
BL: Yes, the figure now is a little bit more than fifty thousand. Now out of those fifty thousand, obviously seven-eighths are going to fall into oblivion. There's simply no outlet for the fifty thousand composers on the concert stage! We don't have that many orchestras. So a handful will remain. Whether I'm going to be among that handful, I don't know. I hope that several pieces will survive into the twenty-first century.
If that 50K figure is accurate -- and the number of university music departments graduating composers suggest it may be -- even if you are only counting composers, the overall market for classical recordings would seem to be sustainable at some scale (such as the current scale).
Agree? Disagree?
In the book from the mid 1960's, "The Performing Arts, the Economic Dilemma" contrary to the press suggesting that there was an "arts boom," the analysis in the book pointed that those interested in the performing arts, as a percentage of the population, were decreasing in number. As I recall it hit it's peak sometime in the 1930s.
I entered music school in 1965 and spent my life in academe/music and left only when I retired from the University last year. Yes, they still keep turning out composers, but few continue to compose very much a few years after graduation. In the interview Ben was quoted as saying that there might be as many as 50,000 composers out there. I would not agree. By the way, Ben was a good friend and we often talked about the state of the arts and composition. Ben did not find favor with many of the younger generation of composers...and he was, as I am, greatly saddened at the dull programming of most of the major performing organizations. I remember Ben talking about the sales of a disc on Albany which featured his chamber music. The disc sold about 300 copies. So, if there are 50,000 composers world wide, they certainly don't seem to be buying Cd's.
I wish things were better. Yet I am pleased when I read the postings here. While we are small in number, we certainly don't lack for enthusiasm for the music we love.