In Reply #6 [Topic: Music, but not for amusement] Alan Howe wrote to me I'm sure we'd all to hear your thoughts on Rufinatscha in a new thread - when you have time.
Well Alan, it will be my pleasure. But, as I have said in the old Forum, I am neither a musician, nor a musicologist, just a listener. Besides, English is not my native language. But I will give it a try anyhow, because Rufinatscha's music is for me so far nothing less than a "Trouvaille". You are a real advocate for Rufinatscha and like you, I also hope to stimulate fellow Raffians to listen to Rufinatscha's music, which is enchanting.
I have already said something enthusiastic about his symphonies 1, 2, 5 and 6 (Topic: Rufinatscha 6, Reply #4) and the two piano quartets (Topic: unsung chamber music with piano, Reply #7).
The other disk I have is "Symphonische Musik für Klavier zu vier Händen", although I had ordered the CD "Klaviertrio, Klavierkonzert zu 4 Händen". Never mind, because its marvellous music. It gives a pretty good idea how the first 3 movements of the lost score of his symphony in C minor must have sounded. Manfred Schneider in his booklet notes quotes a music reviewer who attended a concert in 1846, saying that he ... halte es für die heiligste Pflicht der Kritik, solch ein symphonisches Talent mit Theilnahme in die Welt zu führen. Unfortunately that never happened.
Today I have ordered two CD's, the "Klaviertrio, Klavierkonzert zu 4 Händen" and "Tiroler Klaviermusiek" with four-handed piano music from Rufinatscha and Netzer. I will let you know what I think of it in due course.
Rubinstein-Raff-Rufinatscha. A coincidence or not? ;D
Dear friends,
I have been realizing that Rufinatscha is often mentioned in a lot of topics. I am very curious about him because It seems to some Forum members (Raffians or not) It is an unjustified neglected composer and about his music would keep similarities with Raff and Rubinstein.
I will be glad If some of you would be as kind to give me more information about the composer´s life and works, ad also about the avaiable discography.
Many thanks in Advance! :)
Fernando.
USA 2 - Spain 0 ... What a shame! :-[ ;)
Looks as if the musical establishment will need to go back to school to learn the 3 Rs. ;D
You are teasing me, John. ;) But you are right, I like to say something about Rufinatscha, whose beautiful music is for me a real discovery. Tonight I have to go to Germany for a business trip, but after my return I am happy to share my thoughts on Rufinatscha's music with all of you. I hope Alan can add something.
In the meantime it's RRRB. You know where my B stands for. ::)
Here's a link...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Rufinatscha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Rufinatscha)
Fernando, there aren't many obvious similarities between Rufinatscha on the one hand and Raff and Rubinstein on the other, beyond the fact that they are all 19th. century unsungs sharing the same general romantic ethos and their names begin with R. Alan has written long and eloquently about Rufinatscha and I'm not going to steal his thunder. Rufinatscha has a very individual voice and like all geniuses it doesn't fit into one of those too convenient and always inaccurate categories like Mendelssohnion or Wagnerian, but a start might be to think of him is as a bridge of sorts between the Schubert of the 9th Symphony and Bruckner. That certainly wouldn't describe the other two R's!
Dear friends,
Thank you very much indeed for your suggestions and for the wikipedia link.
I read he was born in South Tyrol and would be considered the best known south tyrolean composer. I am not entirely agree, because Ludwing Thuille was born also in this former Austrian province. ???
I like very much the Thuille Piano Concerto in D major and the Symphony in F major.
I am going to open a new topic about him as soon as I have a short bit of free time.
Again, many thanks for the information about Rufinatscha... I will start to look for some CD of him as soon as possible.
Now, I am back to my daily duties... today less dull because I am listening to the Berwald 3 "Sinfonie Singulière" now. :)
Greetings from "Raffcelona", ;)
Fernando.
What I find when I come back to Rufinatscha - in particular to Symphonies 5 and 6 - is the largeness of his vision and the uniqueness of his music. There is simply nothing like him and I take this fact to be the mark of a truly great composer. Of course, he is part of the great symphonic tradition of the nineteenth century, indeed his music is one of its peaks, but the extraordinary thing is that he has only been re-discovered in the past decade or so - and this through the efforts of modern-day compatriots who have had the confidence to edit, perform, record and promote the music completely single-handedly.
I am therefore glad to report (although I cannot give any details at this moment) that a major independent label is currently planning to record at least the 6th Symphony, and maybe more, here in the UK. This may be the start of gaining for Rufinatscha something of the justice denied to him in life - e.g. when the Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra under Dessoff refused to play the 6th. Let us hope that his time has now come...
What exciting news Alan! It will be wonderful to get hold of recordings of his music without knowing a word of German! Would it be too much to expect concert performances in the UK as well?
Cheers,
John.
I am not sure whether there will be concert performances linked to the recordings. It's a distinct possibility, I would have thought, though.
What can I add to all of this? It is only 3 months ago when I ordered my first Rufinatscha CD's, thanks to the enthusiasm of Alan. Rufinatscha is definitely the greatest find for me in years. His music is stirring, especially the 5th and 6th symphonies. It is so difficult to understand that this great symphonist completely fell into obscurity.
But Rufinatscha had more talents than writing some beautiful symphonies. His chamber music, especially the two piano quartets, is gorgeous. And the two-handed piano version of his piano concerto gives a strong desire for the availability of the complete concerto with orchestra.
Alan's news that another label is planning to record Rufinatscha's 6th is certainly exciting. It's an opportunity for much more classical music lovers to learn of Rufinatscha. And that is exactly what the music reviewer, who attended a Rufinatscha concert in 1846, wanted to happen. That is justice.
I've tried my best search skills and have been unable to locate anywhere his music on CD can be purchased. Anyone know?
Kevin
Some of us do, Kevin. Alan, can you post the link to the Tiroler Landesmuseum and give him the instructions for ordering?
Yes Kevin, the limited availability of Rufinatscha's music is an obstacle. You can only buy the CDs at the online shop of the Tiroler Landesmuseum Ferdinandeum and nowhere else. But this works: click on
http://www.tiroler-landesmuseum.at/html.php/de/ferdinandeum/index.html (http://www.tiroler-landesmuseum.at/html.php/de/ferdinandeum/index.html)
Ø click on "Museum Shop Online" (right top of the screen)
Ø click on "CDs" (left column)
Ø fill in "Rufinatscha" where you see "Volltextsuche" (= full text search) and you will find Rufinatscha discs on 3 pages
If you like to buy one or more discs, do the following:
Ø click on "Mehr Infos" (= more information)
Ø if you want to order that specific CD, click on "in den Warenkorb" (= in the shopping basket), and you will find another screen
Ø if successful, you will read "Artikel wurde erfolgreich dem Warenkorb hinzugefügt" (= the article is successfully put into the basket) and if you like, you can continue shopping or register and buy the disc.
Ø Click on "Registrierung" (= register) if you are a new customer to fill in some information like your shipping address and paying methods.
Good luck!
i am very grateful to you, Peter, for posting this most helpful advice. Thank you.
Thank you Peter! I will be ordering a few titles this weekend. I am a little confused that some of the titles seem to be listed twice or are these the same symphonies performed by two different orchetras?
Kevin
Kevin, the presentation is a bit confusing, but they are listed twice. If you like some symphonies, then you need "Klingende Kostbarkeiten aus Tirol #43" (1 & 5) and "Klingende Kostbarkeiten aus Tirol #49" (6)
Klingende Kostbarkeiten aus Tirol = Melodious Treasures from Tirol.
You're in for a big treat, Kevin! Dessoff made a BIG mistake!
What a heavenly, moving 2nd movement, the adagio con espressione of the 2nd symphony. Just listen. It is so beautiful.
Rufinatscha's 6th was written in 1865, but his magnum opus was never performed. Until July 2007. He had to live another 28 years, but didn't compose another symphony anymore... Maybe he thought that his 6th was the ultimate symphony he was capable of composing. Or maybe the spoiled Viennese concert hall audience didn't want his music anymore. He could have been disillusioned.
Quote from: Peter1953 on Wednesday 08 July 2009, 22:21
Maybe he thought that his 6th was the ultimate symphony he was capable of composing. Or maybe the spoiled Viennese concert hall audience didn't want his music anymore. He could have been disillusioned.
This is intriguing to me. Are there other examples where a composer may feel he has composed the "ultimate" form of a specific musical-piece and then stopped that type fearing he could not produce something better? I'm sure there are examples where a fan might wish a composer "quit while he was ahead" but I guess I never consider that they might feel they can't express/write it better than they already did.
If you know the 6th Symphony, it's hard to imagine it being 'topped', as it were. But the real block to further symphonic writing for Rufinatscha must have been the disappointment of finding that his great masterpiece was rejected by the VPO and its influential conductor.
Too bad he didn't have enough confidence in himself and/or his creation to shop it around in Berlin, Cologne or Leipzig. Or Wiesbaden. A lot of other composers would have. All this talk about it has made me put it back in my car. I'll be revisiting it the rest of this week.
Quote:
[This is intriguing to me. Are there other examples where a composer may feel he has composed the "ultimate" form of a specific musical-piece and then stopped that type fearing he could not produce something better?]
I think a further example could be Franz Lachner, who wrote no more symphonies after 1851 but lived on another 39 years, during which he wrote a series of 7 orchestral suites in a sort of 19th Century "Baroque" style.
Quote from: Alexander_Glazraffstein on Monday 29 June 2009, 10:30
I read he was born in South Tyrol and would be considered the best known south tyrolean composer. I am not entirely agree, because Ludwing Thuille was born also in this former Austrian province.
I like very much the Thuille Piano Concerto in D major and the Symphony in F major.
I am going to open a new topic about him as soon as I have a short bit of free time.
Fernando's reply made me curious about the Bolzano born Ludwig Thuille (1861-1907), so I bought the cpo disc with his piano concerto in D major coupled with the symphony in F major. Just to be able to compare his orchestral works with Rufinatscha.
Fernando wants to start a topic on Thuille in due course. Perhaps I can contribute something to that topic and can go into detail a little for what it's worth. The reason for my post now is that I can strongly recommend the Thuille disc to anyone who is interested in a comparison with Rufinatscha or other South Tyrolian composers like Netzer. And if you don't want to compare, I think that the CD is absolutely worth buying for the almost 79 minutes of pure listening pleasure.
One problem with any comparison between Thuille (the cpo CD is lovely, by the way) and Rufinatscha is that they are from totally different eras. In addition Rufinatscha was a symphonist who worked his way towards his own style and created at least two masterpieces (Nos. 5 & 6), whereas Thuille's single symphony is an early and uncharacteristic piece. For myself, although there is some very fine mature chamber music by Thuille, I am not persuaded that anything by him attains the heights or individuality of Rufinatscha who is simply one of the unknown greats.
Alan, I fully agree with you. I hope Fernando finds time to start a thread on Thuille.
Could the move from writing symphonies to suites be something to do with musical taste and the fact that suites were more likely to get played in concerts than symphonies - or, at least to get played more than once? Volkmann wrote 2 symphonies, then, in his old age, turned out 3 suites for string orchestra which were praised by his contemporaries and got played. Could this have been behind Lachner's turning away from the symphony. Brull wrote one symphony and 3 orchestral suites; Jadassohn wrote 4 symphonies and 4 suites. I don't know - it's just a thought.
You're definitely onto something, Gareth, I'm sure!
I concur. We've all heard the assertion that there was some kind of turn away from the symphony between Schumann's 3rd and Brahms' 1st. Although it has been documented that there were a great number of symphonies composed in that span, do you think that they were all more or less so negatively received by the critical establishment and/or the public (as being either too Beethovenian or not Beethovenian enough) that most composers in that time frame only took one or two stabs at the form before moving to a somewhat more acceptable format?
Hello Peter 1953
I was so taken by what everyone had said about Rufinatscha that I ordered his 6th symphony on Tiroler Landesmuseum without having heard even a note of his music. I placed my order from here in the UK on 25 August. Sadly the CD has still not arrived. I have since sent 2 emails to them - I speak German -but I haven't received an answer to either email. I am starting to think that either my CD has gone missing or there is a problem. TL have cleared my payment. Do you have any comment as you obviously know the Austrian Museum?
cheers
Dennis
Hello Dennis,
You can mail to Eva Bertsch, Secreatary. Her address is: E.Bertsch@tiroler-landesmuseen.at
For one reason or another it takes several weeks before the CD arrives. I don't know why, but we customers have to be very patient. It looks like the mail is getting difficult out of the Alps. But don't hesitate to write to Eva Bertsch once again.
Dennis, your patience will be "rewarded". Rufinatscha's 6 is a more than gorgeous symphony (although I even prefer his 5th) and you will love every minute of it. Please let us know what you think of it.
Best regards, Peter
My guess is that they may have been closed for the summer - but do send another e-mail. Another contact I have there is Sonia Buchroithner, so you could copy your message to her...
S.Buchroithner@tiroler-landesmuseen.at
Hello Alan
Thank you for your kind reply. I am pleased to say that the CD turned up today (post marked Innsbruck 4 Sept)!!! I am looking forward to listening to Sym no 6 this weekend and will almost certainly order sym no 5 next. I can't imagine not liking Rufinatscha's music, especially in view of what both Mark and you have said!
Thanks again for your advice.
Hello Peter
I read Alan's reply first and replied to his email, without realising initially that you too also kindly replied to my posting. Thank you for taking the time to give me your advice. I much appreciate it. As you can see from my previous posting, the CD arrived today!I am really excited about the prospect of listening to sym no 6 and I know I will like it and then immediately order sym no 5!!! I now know that I will have to be patient though awaiting its arrival! Of course I will let you know what I think of Rufinatscha's music.
Kind regards
Well, Dennis, whaddya think? Is that some great stuff, or what?
Hi JimL
I too think that Rufinatscha's music is truly great and fully deserves to be far better known. Everyone is saying that his 6th is the best, although I note that Peter says he prefers the 5th. I would like to hear the 5th firstly before making a final judgement, the idea being to contrast the 2 symphonies. Naturally I am ordering the 5th! What is your take on the 2 symphonies? Which do you prefer and can you say why? I also intend to order the other Cd of his two earlier symphonies in order to have an even better overview of his music. I am very grateful to all the members who have spoken so glowingly of his music and thereby introduced me to another superb composer.
Cheers
Dennis
Dennis, I'm very pleased that you like the symphony (...doesn't really surprise me... ;)). Maybe his 6th is even more developed than his 5th. It's a very great symphony, without doubt.
However, Rufinatscha's 5th belongs definitely to my favourite symphonies. It's so beautiful. I'm sure that if the composers name would be Robert Schumann, and the CD of this magical work would be available everywhere, you will hear it frequently broadcast and performed in concert halls.
Please let us know what your opinion is.
You can hope for a new recording by Rufinatscha: In January 2010 the Tyrolean Museum Ferdinandeum has recorded his ,,Serenade für Streicher". I heard the connected concert – it was the fist performance since Rufinatscha's time – by the "Akademie St. Blasius" conducted by Karlheinz Siessl. Well done!
The short work itself is with strange instrumentation: sometime eccentric deep playing field of the violas and second violins.
[This record will be as more interesting as you also can hear two new works by the Tyrolean Composer Michael F.P. Huber: (,,Jen la momento!" op. 35 and ,,Partita" op. 41). Huber (1971) is – in my opinion – the most gifted Composer (at least [!] of Tyrol) with a lot of courage to compose consequently in a tonal way as well as contrapuntal. He sees himself in the symphonic tradition of Mahler, Shostakovich, Prokofiev and, most of all, K.A. Hartmann. His works are brilliant of instrumentation and full of astonishing Haydn's humor. Great music! I really do love his first Symphony - more than all the symphonies by Prokofiev. His second Symphony will be premiered in January 2011. I hope very, very much, that the Tyrolean Museum Ferdinandeum also will produce a recording of his first Symphony.]
I will report, when the Rufinatscha CD is available!
By the way: There also has been in autumn 2009 a concert with many Lieder (songs) of Rufinatscha. I was deeply impressed: Very good and diversified compositions. (Much more interesting than the songs by Joseph Netzer (1808-1964) – the friend of Franz Schubert – whose Lieder a recorded by the Tyrolean Museum Ferdinandeum (musikmuseeum2). It is a pitty that there is no live recording of this pleasurable evening!
"...Joseph Netzer (1808-1964)..."
His Opus 15,782 is my favorite.
David
No doubt his setting of the song So bin ich endlich vom Zweige gefallen...
;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D Is there an emoticon for hands slapping thighs?
No, but apparently EIGHT emoticons are appropriate. Very subtle.
Having been gripped by the recently-purchased Tudor box of Raff (so far, more than a week of solid repeated listening), I have taken the plunge and tonight ordered the Rufinatscha discs (Symphonies 1, 5 & 6) from the Tyrolean State Museum. I kept coming across his name on this forum and, passionate anglophile though I may be, I do occasionally stray across the channel! Although much has been posted about the quality of Rufinatscha's music, I don't think anybody has given a review of the actual recording in terms of performance or engineering. Any thoughts?
They are recorded by a small-ish orchestra in the large acoustic of the basilica in Stams, Austria. This gives the music - especially in Syms 5 & 6 - a sense of scale that would otherwise be lost given the size of the orchestra, although they actually play very well. I would still like to hear this music played by a larger orchestra recorded in a more analytical acoustic. However, the recordings we have are an excellent start...
Thanks, Alan. I'm more than happy to go with recommendations from members of this forum - I'm really looking forward to hearing these Rufinatscha recordings and am already eyeing-up some Draeseke!
Now Draeseke is one of the greatest unsungs...
Have you tried looking here....?
http://www.draeseke.org/ (http://www.draeseke.org/)
You know, maybe somebody could start up a Rufinatscha Society...
Your good self, maybe? You have all the skills...
Great news - it looks as though we may be in line for some Rufinatscha from Chandos. In reply to Alan's post on their new forum, Ralph Couzens has responded as follows:
"Chandos is seriously considering this composers works, probably starting with the 6th Symphony.
The final details are being negotiated now."
Chandos have told me who the likely conductor and orchestra will be. Suffice it to say that the former is of world standing...
This is unexpected and good news...
Eric
I hope Hyperion gets the PC in their pipeline for the RPCS before Chandos gets their hands on it!
Gentlemen, is it possible this forum is making a difference?
It is entirely possible that the informed and enthusiastic discussions on this forum are read and noted by similarly-minded individuals within the recording industry. Long may such discussions continue!
My impression is that it is the individual approaches and contacts that really make the difference...
Quote from: Albion on Monday 17 May 2010, 19:45
Having been gripped by the recently-purchased Tudor box of Raff (so far, more than a week of solid repeated listening), I have taken the plunge and tonight ordered the Rufinatscha discs (Symphonies 1, 5 & 6) from the Tyrolean State Museum. I kept coming across his name on this forum and, passionate anglophile though I may be, I do occasionally stray across the channel! Although much has been posted about the quality of Rufinatscha's music, I don't think anybody has given a review of the actual recording in terms of performance or engineering. Any thoughts?
The two CDs arrived today, and based on what I have heard I have just ordered the recording of No.2 coupled with the overtures! Many thanks to members of the forum for their positive recommendations regarding this wonderful composer. The performances, unlike many 'world premiere' recordings, are fantastically alive and those involved in their production should take the greatest pride in them. Even if other recordings do come to pass, these Tyrolean discs are true 'classics' which every enthusiast for nineteenth-century symphonists should seek out.
The problem with the recordings is essentially that they are almost inaccessible. Now, Rufinatscha is an unsung giant - but only internationally-available recordings are going to prove this to the world...
I can hardly wait! Actually, I just wanted to bring this thread closer to the top so I can order the Pembauer Cello Concerto more easily!
New to this forum, so responding to old info, also obtained all the Rufinatscha I could, also am glad to have works by Johann Baptist Gansbacher, Matthaus Nagiller and Josef Netzer. I am no musicologist, just know they were great to hear. Thanks, Jim
You won't regret it. At least not the Rufinatscha. Welcome aboard, Jimmattt!
Gänsbacher, Netzer and Nagiller all wrote some thoroughly attractive music - well worth anyone's attention. Rufinatscha, however, is an original composer of the front rank - one of the truly great unsungs. Hence Ralph Couzens' interest...
you can listen to his 6th symphony here:
07:45 Werken van de Oostenrijkse componist Johann Rufinatscha (1812–1893).
1. Ouverture 'Die Braut von Messina'.
2. Symfonie nr. 6 in D.
BBC Philharmonic olv. Gian-Andrea Noseda.
Tuesday 12 July 2011
http://www.concertzender.nl/programmagids.php?date=2011-07-12&month=-4&detail=50509
I must second Alan's opinion here. Rufinatscha really is a first rate composer whose significance should not be underestimated.
Thanks, Gareth. We owe a great deal to our colleagues in Innsbruck, I feel.
New stuff about Rufinatscha: :)
24. November 2012, 20 h, Mals, Oberschulzentrum (South Tyrol, Italy)
25. November 2012, 17 h, Innsbruck, Kaiser-Leopold-Saal (Austria)
Johann Rufinatscha – Symphony in c-minor, (wind parts reconstructed by Michael F.P. Huber) - world premiere
Johann Rufinatscha – Three Orchestra Songs
Belinda Loukota, Sopran
Andreas Mattersberger, Bass
Orchester der Akademie St. Blasius
Karheinz Siessl
http://www.akademie-st-blasius.at/?cat=12 (http://www.akademie-st-blasius.at/?cat=12)
Very exciting news! Thanks!
Will the Rufinatscha concert be recorded at the same time, a.b.? Can you ask Manfred Schneider? That would be another desirable CD from the wonderful collection of the Tiroler Landesmuseum Ferdinandeum Innsbruck.
My information - although not from Innsbruck - is that it is likely to be recorded. Note that the second performance is to be in Innsbruck itself.
This is excellent news. It is really gratifying how quickly Rufinatscha has gone from total unknown to an unsung who regularly gets performances and is taken up by a major recording label. Of course, being unearthed as a major talent in a region previously unblessed with composers of such quality, coupled with a well-funded local museum with its own CD label helps, as does Alan's dogged and authoritative advocacy. But none of it would count for much if there wasn't such prodigious musical substance in the first place.