Welcome back to Unsung Composers. I'm sorry that UC has been offline for a couple of days but the down time was needed to implement the changes which you'll have noticed as soon as you logged on.
The background
As you know, a few weeks ago I asked for expressions of interest from members who would be prepared to take over UC as Alan and I wished to step down from ownership and moderation duties. Unfortunately credible proposals were not forthcoming. So we have decided to carry on but to revert Unsung Composers to its original purpose as a discussion board focussing on unsung music of the romantic era or written in the romantic style. Exactly what we mean by "romantic" is the subject of another post (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,3681.0.html).
The changes
In the process we have simplified the forum, reducing it to just three discussion boards: the main Composers & Music (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/board,24.0.html) board, a merged board for Recordings and Broadcasts (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/board,3.0.html) discussion and a Downloads (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/board,23.0.html) board. These are supported by a board about the web site itself, Suggestions & Problems (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/board,1.0.html), into which have been merged all the posts from the three previous boards serving this function. Still accessible, but now read-only, are three archived boards (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/board,18.0.html) to which have been moved the previous Downloads and its associated Downloads Discussions boards, together with content from the Composer Reference board which no longer fits a forum refocussed on romantic music. Other still-relevant posts from that board have been moved to the Composers & Music board. The only posts which are no longer available anywhere are those in the old Download Requests board, now irrelevant as the Downloads board itself has been archived, and the Trading Post board, which was a largely unused feature.
The future of downloads
In view of the ongoing concern about copyright, we have now restricted the Downloads board to posts of recordings of radio broadcasts. Any discussions about downloads should take place in the Composers and Music board.
Semloh joins the team!
I'm delighted to announced that Semloh, a highly respected and senior member of the forum, will be joining Alan and me in the moderation team from the beginning of October. As a long standing member, he has much experience to bring to the role and has the added benefit of hailing from Australia, so moderation coverage will no longer be confined to the UK's waking hours.
Our thanks
Alan and I are hugely grateful to all members of Unsung Composers for their forbearance whilst we worked though this difficult issue and particularly for all the generous messages of support, both public and private, which we have received. Inevitably, this refocussing and simplifying of UC won't please everybody in every respect, but we are certain that it enables us both, now ably joined by Semloh, to return with enthusiasm and enjoyment to the job of running the forum. I hope that those feelings will be shared by its members, who have contributed so much of their own time and expertise into building UC into the civilised, co-operative community and great resource which it has become.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Monday 13 August 2012, 18:06
this refocussing and simplifying of UC won't please everybody in every respect...
For what it's worth, Mark, it certainly pleases me. I am very grateful to you and Alan for being prepared to continue with running the forum in its renewed (and, if I may say, improved) form and thanks also to Semloh for making up the moderating triumvirate.
Thanks, Lionel. Much appreciated,
Indeed.
Like Lionel certain of the membership here will feel relieved or even celebratory about the rollback,
but I can't be alone in feeling huge disappointment together with resigned acceptance over it myself. In time I'll appreciate and be grateful there's still something, - but for right now I'm in the dumps.
Things being what they are, it is clear that I will not be able to contribute much from this point on. Please do not misunderstand - it is just that the bulk of my collection and the core of my interests fall outside UC's newly-defined boundaries. I will watch this site with sympathetic interest and wish to everyone the very best, especially the hard-pressed moderators.
Shamokin88
So sorry, Greg, but the old version of UC was just too unwieldy, unmanageable and unenjoyable for us to continue with. I hope you'll still want to contribute when you can..
Thanks nonetheless for your measured and understanding, if regretful, reactions.
Interesting how things get out of hand, even with no one's evil intent. I, too, will miss the expanded version very much, and will have basically nothing more to contribute. None of that means I don't appreciate the original intent of the Forum, in fact the British Archive alone is one of the best things to happen to me in my entire collectaholic life, and I thank you for it. I will still try to find broadcasts of appropriate pieces, and I hope others will, too, especially those of you in Europe (Germany in particular) but here in the US such are very slim pickin's. If anyone finds a broken link to anything I have uploaded of the not-so-romantic styles, please don't hesitate to PM me and I will try to send you fresh links, also in PMs. Also, if anyone knows of another forum that embraces more 20th and 21st century music, I would love to hear about, being an unredeemable collectaholic and all. Oh, well... Jim
Thanks, Jim. We'll look forward to whatever you feel you can contribute in the future.
Thank you for continuing to do the work which allows so many to inform the more. Woofer.
I hate to say this, but I'm in a pretty black mood after seeing the changes. I love music of the romantic era, but I also have a passion for accessible, tonal modern music. There is no site called "Unsung Modern Composers", so where will those, who, like I and other members of this site, go to discuss and upload modern music? I am sure UC will continue to be a great site, but I will, unfortunately, not have as much enthusiasm for the site as when I joined :(.
That's your choice, kyjo. We simply can't be all things to all men. It's impossible.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 13 August 2012, 21:42
That's your choice, kyjo. We simply can't be all things to all men. It's impossible.
Of course you can't - and why should you try in any case? Unsung means unsung, does it not? Eitgher we have the forum as it is, devoted to unsung composers of all kinds and all persuasions from all eras or we seek to divide and (not) rule by fragmenting it into who knows how many special agenda fora which might still risk leaving something out.
Well, we have chosen a narrower path, Alastair, I'm afraid.
Quote from: ahinton on Monday 13 August 2012, 22:17
Eitgher we have the forum as it is, devoted to unsung composers of all kinds and all persuasions from all eras
The forum never was "devoted to unsung composers of all kinds and all persuasions from all eras": for example, we never permitted exploration of music written pre-1800 (with the occasional interesting exception). What we have done is to return UC to its roots while preserving other material in the archive.
I am very pleased with the changes, most of all that the UC site is now restricted to romantic classical music only. Personally I have absolutely nothing with avant garde and other modern would-be classical music, but I much appreciate other members opinions and feelings towards the changes. Mark and Alan, you're doing a wonderful and admirable job!
Thank you very much, Peter.
I'm so pleased, Peter. Thank you!
Sorry Mark and Alan, but for me you downgraded Unsung Composers from a broad glancing forum into a far less interesting one. Maybe you'd better changed the name into Unsung Romantics, for now you've excluded many great unsung composers.
I'm not sure I have much to offer now to the members, as many works in my collection are apparently too modern.
I love the romantics, let there be no doubt, but it never stopped me from looking over the boundaries, finding there so many beautiful, maybe sometimes more difficult, music. And that was precisely what I found in the 'old' UC.
Only good thing: you left everything in an 'Archive' area, I thank you for that.
I hope UC in its renewed form will still be of interest for many.
Best regards,
Elroel
Gentlemen: I am so pleased to see that you are still in business. I was bereft at thinking I might lose this wonderful opportunity to continue hearing music I never dreamt I would. I cannot thank you enough. I do apologize for being a complete idiot with computers. I have offered a few things like Barisons and some Cuclin which A.S. had uploaded for me. Believe me when I say htis has meant a GREAT deal to me and given me something to do in what has wound up being a somewhat boring retirement. Again, thank you so very much.
Malito (Malcolm Parker, Tucson, Arizona)
I must agree in feeling saddened at the narrowing of the remit of the site. I can only hope that someone somewhere will be able to set up a complementary site devoted to later unsung music. However, there are plenty of unsung romantics I am fond of, so I shall certainly continue to enjoy what is offered here.
Alan and Mark, I can only applaud your solution to the many issues you were grappling with.
Limiting downloads to broadcasts is a prudent compromise in trying to navigate the ins and outs of copyright restrictions. Yes, I will miss the digitized LPs. But UC is not the first site to have chosen this solution to the problem of copyright. Your solution will simplify your management of downloads significantly.
Limiting discussion and downloads to romantic style music is in line with the original purpose of the site, so a return to that original focus is certainly understandable. I've never been able to enjoy the abrasiveness of much modern music and the aimless ambling of more recent composers. Yet I have liked trying out some of the more contemporary composers whose works got posted. As Gian Carlo Menotti once said, "A man only becomes wise when he begins to calculate the approximate depth of his ignorance." I would rather have heard the works and disliked them than to have not tried them at all. Nonetheless, I fully appreciate your decision.
But finally, and most importantly, I want to express to you my sincere gratitude. I know that you were both wearing down, not having fun, and struggling for solutions. Those of us who have been around awhile have always been grateful most of all for the mere existence of Unsung Composers -- a place to discuss with our fellows our thoughts and to share our discoveries.
Rather than lament the limitations of UC, I shall instead thank you once again for creating and continuing the site.
Well, like almost everything else I've run across lately, it was too good to last.
Quote from: Jimfin on Tuesday 14 August 2012, 02:18
I must agree in feeling saddened at the narrowing of the remit of the site. I can only hope that someone somewhere will be able to set up a complementary site devoted to later unsung music. However, there are plenty of unsung romantics I am fond of, so I shall certainly continue to enjoy what is offered here.
Jim, that's good to hear! I too benefited enormously from being exposed to music which fell outside the forum's original remit but, as we both know, these restrictions are necessary to secure its future. There's still a lot to share and explore, we have wonderfully informed and articulate members, and I am pleased that we will continue to have your company. :)
A complementary forum dedicated to other genres of Unsungs would be great, especially for those members who are interested in that type of music, have generously contributed to this forum, and are now perhaps feeling at a loss. But it takes someone who, like Mark and Alan, have the passion, ability and fortitude to set up and run a forum....
Quote from: Jimfin on Tuesday 14 August 2012, 02:18. . . I can only hope that someone somewhere will be able to set up a complementary site devoted to later unsung music. . . .
Done! (Please refer to separate thread.)
Quote from: Jimfin on Tuesday 14 August 2012, 02:18. . . However, there are plenty of unsung romantics I am fond of, so I shall certainly continue to enjoy what is offered here.
Likewise.
I, too, applaud your decision and thank you for all of your labors. It's a wonderful site. Recently for me it has been almost unwieldly scouring through all of the many posts and ultimately marking about 85% of them as "read". I can only imagine how time consuming it had become for Mark and Alan. And welcome to the team, Semloh...... :) :) :)
Jerry
Thanks for the refocus, gentlemen. I generally feel that it is better to ignore something that doesn't interest me than to complain about it, but lately the threads I passed over seemed to outnumber the ones that quickened my pulse. Thanks for taking the pains to work through this issue, and for all your hard work over the years.
David
Thanks to one and all for these messages posted whilst the UK was asleep.
I'm particularly grateful to those of you who regret the changes, for the measured and understanding way in which you've reacted to them. Thanks also to Sydney Grew for expanding his existing forum - it's a very sensible and welcome move.
Thanks to all who have posted here - especially to those who have expressed disappointment at our return to our roots. I sincerely hope you will still feel able to contribute as and when you feel so moved.
Quote from: jerfilm on Tuesday 14 August 2012, 04:38
I, too, applaud your decision and thank you for all of your labors. It's a wonderful site. Recently for me it has been almost unwieldly scouring through all of the many posts and ultimately marking about 85% of them as "read". I can only imagine how time consuming it had become for Mark and Alan. And welcome to the team, Semloh...... :) :) :)
Jerry
Thank you, Jerry, I really appreciate that. :)
I am delighted to be assisting Mark and Alan - we see eye-to-eye on most issues, and already have a good working relationship. I won't get too involved until October, when my academic life will finally take a back seat and I can devote to this the time and energy that it requires.
Having considered the issues arising from recent events both on and away from the forum, I have decided that, for several reasons, my membership has now run it's natural course.
My particular thanks go to the several members who contributed to our knowledge of British and Irish music through their provision of broadcasts and other recordings. Unfortunately the maintenance of that particular archive is no longer viable, as a perusal of it's contents will indicate, and it is now a read-only reference catalogue. Many members will no doubt have their own copies of recordings which were previously available and would probably be willing to make these available through private communication in response to specific requests.
Please accept my sincere thanks for what has gone before, and my best wishes for the future under the new remit.
:)
Thank you John, I completely understand and my sincere thanks for your huge contribution to the site in the past couple of years. You'll be missed.
Although i like "romantic" music. So has the greatest discoveries, thanks to this forum, been unsung composers such as Skulte, Arnic and Stoyanov. But as I understand, no longer fit in? For me, is still music that evokes feelings the main thing, whatever label. It was a necessary development of the music during the 1900s, as the "romantic" music tended to get lost in clichés. But I am still an advocate for the beautiful music, like Vasks, for instace, is he a romantic composer?
Quote from: albion on Tuesday 14 August 2012, 10:14
Having considered the issues arising from recent events both on and away from the forum, I have decided that, for several reasons, my membership has now run it's natural course.
Dear Albion, John,
If I understand things correctly, this means your highly - very highly indeed - appreciated section of British and Irish composers downloads is now also coming to an end? Does that mean they're no longer available to anyone? Is it thinkable they would move to the Art-Music Forum, as proposed by Sydney Grew here below?
Apologies for my lack of understanding of what exactly is going on, but I think I'm speaking for many in praising you for your tremendous efforts here en thanking you wholeheartedly,
warm wishes, Christo (Johan Snel)
The downloads are still available here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/board,6.0.html)
...although they can't be added to.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Tuesday 14 August 2012, 11:33
The downloads are still available here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/board,6.0.html)
...although they can't be added to.
Many thanks! Being denied access to the Mediafire folders must have a technical reason, then. I'll hope to find out which. ???
Which link are you having trouble with? MediaFire seems to be working OK at present. It may be that the link is no longer valid for some reason: the original poster may have changed the settings to make it private, for example. You could try contacting the the original poster.
Hi. I love "romantic music" , also I love some "not romantic music" around mid to late 20 century.
But I can understand intent about change of this forum.
Also I promise to upload some romantic music when I will record it from broadcast :)
Atsushi
Hi Atsushi,
Your continuing presence with us is greatly appreciated. Thanks!
Quote from: Tartini on Tuesday 14 August 2012, 11:17
But I am still an advocate for the beautiful music, like Vasks, for instace, is he a romantic composer?
No, he doesn't fit at all, I'm afraid. Very sorry.
BORING!!! What was once a great site is now closed minded. People get sick on a diet of the same thing day after day. There is no place to go but downhill from here.
I'm sorry that you feel that way Fr8nks, but it seems to me that there's still a huge variety in a diet which includes both Farrenc and Furtwängler, even if it excludes Fricker.
I've had a number of PMs from members unsure whether a specific composer or piece of music does or doesn't come within UC's definition of romanticism. You may have overlooked it, but we do have such a definition already posted here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,3681.0.html). It's a notoriously difficult area and to some degree it'll always be in the eye of the beholder, so we felt its sensible to give comprehensive guidance on what yardsticks the moderators themselves will be using in future.
Not to mention the fact that there is a ginormous amount of music from the period in question still sitting on shelves awaiting rediscovery. Hardly boring at all! Downhill? Hardly!!! I would recommend that members who downloaded items that are still in the archive retain their memberships or take steps to make sure that the archive remains active for download. And, of course, I will be signing up for Sidney Grew's forum as well, and I suggest close contact and cooperation between the two.
Quote from: fr8nks on Tuesday 14 August 2012, 13:59
BORING!!! What was once a great site is now closed minded.
It always was. We excluded almost everything pre-1800 and the avant-garde.
The whole discussion is about neither. But about accessible, neoclassical (in the broadest sense), even 'romantic' music from the past century. A sincere loss it's now being excluded from this forum, IMHO. :'(
I understand your feelings and I'm sorry.
Mark and Alan probably won't be willing to elaborate, but I'd be curious to know (post mortem) just what kind of proposals were made by other parties to take over UC (and I assume there were some) and what made them unacceptable.
Quote from: JimL on Tuesday 14 August 2012, 14:23. . . of course, I will be signing up for Sidney Grew's forum as well, and I suggest close contact and cooperation between the two.
Agreed; and I think it will be important to construct and maintain
combined lists, both of downloads and of composer references - so as to avoid duplication and too much hopping back and forth when searching.
A propos Greg K's comment: that might be very interesting.
To me, this is a very welcome re-focus - mainly from the point of organization. As the forum grew in scope and size, it became harder to pick interesting discussions - for everyone, I should imagine - and my interest began to waver as I had to search harder and harder.
But, honestly, I would have understood if the re-orientation had gone in a different direction. Sites like these need assess their priorities every now and then. To keep it interesting for newcomers, to keep things clear for visitors, to simply keep things manageable within the confines of restrictive software, but most of all to maintain a collective identity both broad enough and narrow enough to keep everyone motivated.
Over the years, few musical resources have brought me more revelations than this site (and its predecessor at Raff.org), so I'm very pleased to see it carry on. To Mark, Alan, and Semloh, you have my thanks - again - and best wishes for the future.
Thanks very much, Ilja.
Thanks, Ilja.
Greg K wrote:
QuoteI'd be curious to know (post mortem) just what kind of proposals were made by other parties to take over UC
No problem. We had only two expressions of interest, neither of which developed into a firm proposal. One was, I hope he doesn't mind me mentioning this, from Sydney Grew. Sydney proposed what he has now done, but on a bigger scale. It would have meant the end of UC, though, and the loss of all the posts and the information which they hold. Clearly that wasn't an option, which Sydney understood, and so he withdrew. I'm very pleased that he has resurrected his idea on a smaller scale. The only other approach we had, which was also never developed into a concrete proposal, failed because of differences between a former member and ourselves which it would be quite wrong for me to go into.
I'm most grateful for the understanding of those of you in particular who, whilst strongly regretting the return of UC to its original focus, appreciate how and why it has happened and accept it. Maybe you'll understand the frustration which I now feel at the continued complaints of a minority of members who don't? We offered to give away UC to a team who could develop it as they wished and that opportunity wasn't taken up. So I am entirely unapologetic about refocussing UC onto romantic music, because the alternative was to close it down. I'm afraid that I'm impervious to attempts to change that policy. The definition we have of what we mean by romantic (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,3681.0.html) may not be watertight but it is as clear as any definition is ever going to be and you may be assured that Alan and I, soon to be joined by Semloh, will be making sure that we stick to it.
In common with the other threads in this section, I'm going to lock this thread now, but will leave it prominently displayed for a while.