Here I think we have an opportunity to uncover some gems. Many composers wrote symphonies before their 'No. 1'. Based on the few I've heard, they may be very insightful for changes in composer styles (e.g., Dohnanyi, early Strauss symphonies in d minor and f minor) as well as compelling works in their own right.
Sterndale Bennett
Symphony in Bb, Woo 20 (1832, 16 yrs old)
Symphony in d minor, WoO 23 (1833, 17 yrs)
Symphony in A, WoO 28 (1834, 18 yrs)
Symphony in b minor (abandoned?) (1838, 22 yrs)
Berwald
Symphony in A (1820, 24 yrs) available
Dohnanyi
Symphony in F (1896, 19 yrs) avail
Draeseke
Symphony in C (lost) (1856)
Eberl
Symphony in D, WoO 5 (1783, 18 yrs)
Symphony in G, WoO 6 (1784, 19 yrs)
Elgar
Symphony (1878, 21 yrs)
Enescu
Study Symphonies 1-4 (d, F, F, Eb) (1895-8, 14-17 yrs), only 1 and 4 are available
I'll put a plug here for Faure's 2 efforts (even though they're not 'youth')
Symphony No. 1 in F (1865–74) (Allegro, Andante, Gavotte, Finale), 1st movt pubd as Allegro symphonique, op.68, arr. pf 4 hands, L. Boëllmann (1895), movts 1–3 in MS, arr. str, org
Symphony No. 2 in d minor (1884) (Allegro deciso, Andante, Final), MS destroyed except for 1st vn part, themes of movts 1–2 revised in sonatas opp.108–9
Fibich
Symphony in Eb (score lost, quartet score survives) (1865, 15 yrs)
Symphony in g minor (lost except for incipits, piano 4-hand arr. Of scherzo, revised version of finale) (1866, 16 yrs)
Franck, Cesar
Symphony in G (1836-1841, lost, 19 yrs)
Franck, Eduard
Symphonies in a, g, Bb (29-41 years -not youthful, but his earliest published symphonies were 25 years later)
Fuchs (again, 10+ years earlier than his first published symphonies)
Symphony in b minor (1868, 21 yrs)
Symphony in g minor (1872, 25 yrs)
Furtwangler
Symphony in D major (1st movement: Allegro) (1902, 16 yrs)
Symphony in b minor (Largo movement) (1908; revised in 1941 as first movement of Symphony No. 1, 22 years old) Symphony 1 was published 33 years later
Goldmark
Symphony in C major (1858-60), manuscript (only Scherzo in e survives; see op. 19)
Gouvy
There is a Symphony in b minor (between Nos. 2 and 3) that for some reason was never published (1849, 30 yrs)
Hamerik
Symphony in c minor, Op.3 (lost), 1860, 17 yrs
Hartmann, Emil (3 symphonies not numbered, before No. 1)
Symphony in d minor, Op. 6 (1866, 30 yrs)
Symphony in e minor, Op. 9 (1867, 31 yrs)
Symphony in Bb (1871, 35 yrs)
Herzogenberg (lots here All these before the two numbered symphonies)
Symphony in d minor, WoO 1 (1866, 23)
Symphony in e minor, WoO 2 (1871?, 28)
Symphony in F, WoO 25 (1871, 21)
Symphony in d minor 'Odysseus', Op. 16 (1873)
Symphony, WoO 28 (1875, 32)
Symphony in c minor WoO 29 (1878 35)
Hiller
2 Symphonies (1829, 1834, about 20 years+ before No. 1)
Klughardt
Symphony in C, 1865, lost? (18 yrs)
Waldleben, symphony, 1871, lost? (24 yrs)
Mahler
Symphony No. A 'Conservatory' (1876, 16 yrs)
Symphony No. B 'Nordic (1879-1882, 22 yrs)
Symphony No. C. in a minor (1882-1883, 23 yrs)
Symphonies No. D-G (1886-1888, 28 yrs)
Raff
Symphony in e minor (Allegro appassionato, Andante, March, Scherzo, Fugue) - nos 3 and 4 reused as 5 and 4 in Orchestral Suite No. 1, Op. 101 (1854, 32 yrs)
Reinecke
Symphony in G (apparently withdrawn), before 1850, 26 yrs
Rheinberger
Symphony in D, JWV 41 (1855, 16 yrs)
Symphony in c minor, JWV 76 (1857, 18 yrs)
Symphony in C (or c minor), JWV 81 (1857, 18 yrs)
Rimsky-Korsakov
Symphony in b minor (sketches, including scherzo in Eb in 5/4 time) (1869, 25 yrs)
Romberg, Andreas
Symphony in F (1785, 18 yrs)
Symphony in G (1788, 21 yrs (lost)
Symphony in Eb (1788, 21 yrs (lost)
Symphony in F (1788, 21 yrs)
Symphony in D (finale incomplete), 1792, 25 yrs
Saint-Saens
Symphony in Bb, R154 (1848, 13 yrs) (incomplete)
Symphony in A (1850, 15 yrs) (available)
Symphony in D, R15 (1850, 15 yrs)
Symphony in A, R. 159 (1850) (includes Scherzo, R. 156, and fragment of first movement, R. 158)
Symphony in c minor (1854) fragment, later reused in Piano Concerto No. 4)
Schumann, Robert
Symphony in c minor, Anh. A1 (1830, 20 yrs) (fragment; based on Piano Quartet, Anh. E1, 1828-9) (Allegro 13T, 2 mov 36T, 4 mov 68T)
Symphony in Eb, Anh. A2 'Hamlet' (1830-2) (sketches, incorporated into Symphony in g)
Symphony in g minor (Zwickau), Anh. A3 (unfinished, 2 movements complete, with sketches for 3rd and 4th; originally Op. 7) (available)
Symphony in c minor, Anh. A5/6 [Sinfonia solemnis' (sketches for 2 movements) (1 Andante - Allegro agitato 151T; 2 Allegro con brio 152 T; 3 Scherzo 161T; 4 Adagio 39T; 5 Rondo 239T)
Wetz
Symphony in d minor (originally Op. 8, but only Scherzo is given that number now) (1900, 25 yrs)
Zemlinsky
Symphony in e minor (1891, two surviving movements only) (1891, 20 yrs)
edit: added Huber
Symphony in Eb (incomplete, 1870-1877, 25 yrs)
Symphony in A (originally 2nd Symphony, but withdrawn) 1889, 37 yrs
So many intriguing prospects here; for instance: do the four early Mahler symphonies exist?
Nitpicking, but Gouvy's withdrawn in-between work at 30 years is a potentially interesting case of another phenomenon (like Hans Huber's - I think I recall extant in full, from RISM- maybe even performable with some editing? I'd like to know... - A major symphony, withdrawn between his official symphonies 1 and 2) - at 30 years he was no longer exactly youthful, less so in the 19th century I should think.
Not sure??? if Robert Fuchs' 2 early symphonies exist any more except as reports in contemporary journals (of the "A B minor symphony by the young Robert Fuchs was performed" - translating from German - sort. One gets a bit of this with, say, Ewald Straesser, to mention just one, also- quite a few mentioned but where-are-they?... works.) (And then on the flip side, with Fuchs there seems to be this (fifth?) quartet in the Austrian library or at least in their catalog that... er... never mind.)
Well, that's why I have 'Youth' in scare quotes. The point is, these are symphonies outside the normal numbered oeuvre, and likely for reasons that will appeal to this community. Perhaps they were too old-fashioned or romantic for the times...?
Many of these may not exist - I've put 'lost' where appropriate. I think all would bear investigation.
regarding Mahler's, I don't believe they are extant.
Rachmaninoff, Youth Symphony in D minor, dated September 28, 1891. Begun immediately after completing the original version of his 1st piano concerto, only the first movement survives, and that ends so abruptly that one can surmise that he just abandoned the piece. His Manfred, also written in 1891, has also been lost or destroyed. He did not return to work on a symphony for several years. His first was completed 1896. In the interim, he wrote The Rock, Prince Rostislav, String Quartet No. 1, Caprice bohemien, and assorted solo piano works. His 1st Symphony, also in D minor, was so poorly received that it to was destroyed, but was reconstructed from parts many years later. His first successful symphony was the 2nd in 1908, completed 8 years after the 1st. One must wonder what might have happened if his first symphony had been better received, since in retrospect, we now know it to be quite a fine work.
Sorry for running on about a "sung" composer.
No problem. Symphony No.1, although often recorded, hardly ever features in concert programmes.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Sunday 23 September 2012, 20:56
So many intriguing prospects here; for instance: do the four early Mahler symphonies exist?
Wikipedia notes only two early Mahler symphonies:
1877 - "Student Symphony" - lost; rehearsed at the Conservatory under Joseph Hellmesberger, and rejected
1882-83 - Symphony in A minor - not performed; may be a more developed version of the "Student Symphony"
Authorities:
Carr, Jonathan (1998). Mahler: a biography. New York: The Overlook Press
Mitchell, Donald (1995). Gustav Mahler: Vol. I The Early Years. Berkeley: University of California Press.
Although it doesn't actually say so, it implies that the A minor symphony is lost. :(
Do we know anything about the other two?
The info could be from:
Mitchell's (1958) Gustav Mahler, Vol. 1: The Early Years. Faber, 1958 (revised with Paul Banks and David Matthews 1978)
From 'Gustav Mahler, The Early Years' Donald Mitchell lists a
'Conservatoire' Symphony (1876?), a Symphony in A minor (1882?-1883?) and a
Nordic Symphony (Suite?)(1879?-1882). None of them has survived to the
present day.
Additional info can be found here:
http://www.mahlerarchives.net/Mahlerites/sfiller2mvmts/filler2mvmts.htm (http://www.mahlerarchives.net/Mahlerites/sfiller2mvmts/filler2mvmts.htm)
and possibly from the journal:
http://www.mahlerarchives.net/Mahlerites/naturlaut.html (http://www.mahlerarchives.net/Mahlerites/naturlaut.html)
More info from wiki:
The possibility of previously unknown early Mahler works emerged when, in 1938, the Dutch conductor Willem Mengelberg revealed the existence of an archive of manuscripts in Dresden, in the hands of Marion von Weber with whom Mahler had been romantically involved in the 1880s. Mengelberg claimed that these manuscripts included drafts of four early symphonies, which he and the German composer Max von Schillings had played through on the piano. Mahler historian Donald Mitchell writes: "Though one may perhaps be a shade sceptical about the existence of four symphonies, each of them completely carried through, the strong possibility remains that some important manuscripts, either early symphonies or parts of early symphonies, were to be found in Dresden." The archive was almost certainly destroyed in the bombing of Dresden in February 1945
One can't forget Bizet, despite its popularity and the fact he only wrote one published symphony later.
If extant, where could the manuscript of the so-called "Zwickauer" or Jugendsinfonie g-Moll WoO 29 of Robert Schumann be located and has it been digitized? the same for the other early Schumann oeuvres.
Some autograph sketches of the C minor symphony are at the Juilliard School Lila Acheson Library. See RISM (http://opac.rism.info/search?documentid=900004986) and RISM link 2 (http://opac.rism.info/search?documentid=900004997).
I'd think either was published too recently for even the manuscript to be out of copyright anywhere, but I'm not really sure... (hrm. G minor Zwickau-Sinfonie Sym WoO29, published 1972 by Peters in an edition edited by Marc Andreae. Ok, that's more than 25 years, so whether the manuscript could be scanned depends on the copyright region.)
Notes to a recording of the 1832 Zwickau say "The autograph score of the second, slow movement exists in private ownership, but a readily performable original material has yet to be produced".
I'm 82, in my second teenhood and I'm still working on my 3rd "Youth" Symphony. :)
Two youth symphonies that particularly interest me are those by Langgaard ('Pastoral of the Mountains', written at age 16) and Korngold ('Sinfonietta', written at age 15 and, despite the title, a full-blown symphony). They're quite similar in scale, emotion and a general lack of restraint (to be expected from a teenager), and roughly written at the same time.
I would put in a plug for the early Furtwangler as being attractive pieces worth an airing.
Dear John,
Do make sure you finish your third symphony, less other hands might decide to tinker with it after you have gone. A jazz or twelve tone ending might be its fate.
I think one can almost safely put lost or at best misplaced :) next to the Fuchs; the only reason I know of that we even know of Robert Fuchs' early efforts- at least of one of them; I don't know about the other - is that a performance of it was mentioned in a contemporary journal... hopefully some library with at least almost-full score and parts will now correct me!
(I'm guessing this is how one knows of many other works too. Google, archive.org, etc. have scanned in many such journals and one sees these concert reviews mentioning works of some interest- ...ok, interest to me... some of which may be lost, some of which fortunately have been preserved at least in part by libraries or others, &c. I say "fortunately" even if they are very, very far from being masterpieces because I think libraries, so far as they have space and digital space (now), are good at preserving things, and I'm glad that they can and do, and that they've considered it part of their mission. And I babble. Apologies.)
I'll do my best Giles, but I think you'll agree that only unfinished symphonies by top composers like Schubert, Bruckner, Mahler and Elgar are worth tinkering with. I suspect that the fate of anything I've written, finished or unfinished, will be the recycle bin, and most people will add rightly so! :)
Cheers,
John.
Promised myself long ago that even my own horrible work would not see the recycle bin (well, at best, would be scanned and digitally saved, but that technology didn't exist at the time) - your (definitely, by definition, better) stuff should not suffer that fate either.
eschiss, I'm sure anything you have written must be better than anything of mine. I was lucky enough to have my 2nd symphony played through by the Wirral Symphony Orchestra at one of their rehearsal meetings, but they decided not to take it any further. The majority of people I have sent Cds of a synthetic performance of this piece, including some members of this forum, have been too polite to make any comments on it! :'(
Cheers,
John.
3-years late update about that Fuchs 1872 symphony fwiw... - not so lost as I supposed. 2 movements (of I'm guessing probably?? the same G minor symphony?) are in autograph score at the Austrian National Library. http://data.onb.ac.at/rec/AL00491192 (http://data.onb.ac.at/rec/AL00491192)
There is an early symphony (in A minor) by Franz Schreker. His style changed dramatically; in his first compositions he was a pretty standard late romantic, but his mature style is one of the most original in 20th century music.
The OP mentions the Strauss early symphonies (the first written at the age of 16) but they don't appear in the list. I have a very strange LP of the D minor symphony. It is not the usual black plastic, but turquoise and translucent!
Quote from: Gauk on Sunday 15 March 2015, 10:12
The OP mentions the Strauss early symphonies (the first written at the age of 16) but they don't appear in the list. I have a very strange LP of the D minor symphony. It is not the usual black plastic, but turquoise and translucent!
What was the year of manufacture?
Tom :)
Bizet composed his C major Symphony at the age of 13.
No: it was written in October/November 1855 shortly after Bizet had turned 17.
The Symphony in C is heavily modeled on the Symphony No. 1 in D by Bizet's teacher/mentor, Gounod. There are even some thematic resemblances.
Of course, you are right as usual Alan - and I see that in here mistakes are corrected within the hour: I know it was composed in 1855 (and rediscovered in 1933 amongst the Reynaldo Hahn collection). Weingartner conducted it in Basle in 1935.
Apparently I am not able anymore to make a simple calculation: 1855 minus 1838. Starting from right 5 minus 8 I came to 3 instead of 7 :-( Is this the beginning of dementia?
Sorry, but I better put on a longer period of silence before daring to come back to this forum without complexes.
Not at all, Adriano. I make mistakes like that every day (particularly where arithmetic is concerned) - and yet I congratulate myself that I can still do more complicated mental arithmetic more quickly than many of our teenagers and students today. It is sad that some have not even been taught how to calculate what 10% of something is, without resort to electronic means!!! We are not doing too badly, my dear chap.
I make mistakes like this all the time too. You should see me trying to agree my bank statement at the end of the month. To err is human - and to err mathematically is all-too human. It's good to have an all-too human conductor of note with us here at UC...
The topic has inspired me to get out a recording of the Rachmaninoff Youth Symphony
Tom :)
Is there a preferred recording of Rachmaninoff's Youth Symphony. I have an LP transfer from the Vox recording with Slatkin and the St. Louis Symphony. I find it lacks the brightness I'm accustomed to and overall there is a bit of muddiness. As I find myself returning to this particular work. Any suggestions?
Tom
Sure, the Noseda/BBC Philharmonic recording on Chandos is fine. I also like the Ashkenazy recording on Exton - but that comes only in a large (and quite expensive) boxed set of everything for orchestra. The Slatkin is actually not bad at all; I have the first cd version made of it - in the cardboard sleeve - and it still sounds great.
will check out the Chandos one