I am wondering what members, listening to a symphony or a solo concert in a concert hall, think of applauding after the first movement (or even after each movement...). Do you think that disturbs the musicians and/or you as a listener? Personally it usually irritates me, but maybe musicians feel it as an appreciation of their good performance.
I do not attend many concerts now and I only remember this happening once and the performer looked round with as much fury as if a mobile phone had gone off.
We seem to live in a World where everything is routinely cheered/applaused and it gets on my nerves. It is destroying tennis, ruins snooker matches and will get on my wick during the upcoming golf championships at Augusta where one will hear "in the hole" x 10 million.
Personally, any one who applauses after a first movement should be shot on sight. On completion of the performance naturally.
Thal
What he said.
The phenomenon doesn't merely occur at the end of the movement. I deplore the behaviour of those characters - always a hearty male - who seem desperate to demonstrate to the rest of the audience that they really know the score, and hence are obviously very superior gentlemen, by shouting or applauding when the very last notes are still in the air. Musicians always indicate that the end of the performance hasn't yet been reached, even though the last note has been played, by holding a bow in play position or fingers across a keyboard or baton still in the air....and yet those unmusical thugs still want to rush in and disrupt the often magical atmosphere at the end of a piece.
In the past I have identified people in the audience who do this, and have (politely) asked them to refrain from such behaviour and explained what is so offensive about it. Maybe I'm just no good at furnishing a clear explanation, for these attempts have been met by considerable rudeness and even in one case threats of violence.
Perhaps better to stand with Thal, murderous axe in hand, by the door?
One qualification: the phenomenon occurs only at orchestral concerts (and of course in opera houses). I always find audiences at chamber concerts far more musical, and there's always far closer 'psychological' contact between performers and audience at chamber concerts than at orchestral events. Yes, the latter begin to resemble football matches. Hum, wonder how these hearty types would react if, whilst they were still exerting themselves and panting furiously, their lady friends emitted a 'well done, dear' and turned away and resumed reading their bedside book?
It has always irritated me. I hate to say it but my experience has been that a good number of those who are there are there to be seen, and to be seen appreciating something that they don't sincerely appreciate.
Quote from: petershott@btinternet.com on Wednesday 10 April 2013, 21:44
Hum, wonder how these hearty types would react if, whilst they were still exerting themselves and panting furiously, their lady friends emitted a 'well done, dear' and turned away and resumed reading their bedside book?
There was just such a fatty, clearly an ex-collective farm manager who had never had anyone in his life tell him when to shut up, behind me in the Bolshoi once, just before it closed for renovations, who kept shouting "bravo" etc even as the notes were still lingering in the air. I think it was a performance of Khachaturian's Spartacus, when there are some magically quiet parts, each of which he sledge-hammered to show his masterly appreciation of the poor ballerina. Then, at the end, as soon as the last notes were out, he gathered his massive self up and exited in haste, presumably so as to be first at the coat-check and not have to queue. Those are the ones I would axe-murder first, the ones who really can't wait that extra 5-minutes to show their appreciation to the artists.
Banish 'em to an island where the only radio station is ClassicFM.
Ugh, reminds me of Callas' Medea of 58, because it's one of the last cds I received.
I heard wonders about the performance, and being a sucker for Medea, I bought it. Indeed it is a superlative performance (even though the extreme cuts in the score are too much for me), but not only are people applauding after anything has been sung, they applaud when Callas enters the stage, does anything menacing etc. The whole coda is behind a thick fog of applause.
I understand she is famous, I understand many must have paid for the tickets based on that alone and that score is indeed ferocious and dramatic. Must it become a sitcom?
As a performer, applause between movements doesn't bother me as much as an audience member, in fact. As an audience member it bothers me to insane levels, as do people trying to show everyone how much they know the score - specially when they don't. I remember watching Schubert's string quintet and a lady in front of me would start to 'bob' sideways as if "I'm so moved by this, I must dance!", only to be surprised time and again by the music, ending out of sync or dancing when there was nothing happening (and vice-versa). After much bobing, the guy two seats from her felt compelled to partake.
I had to refrain from slapping them both on the back of their heads.
Try sitting next to the ignoramus who liked to hum the tunes. Can't wait for Rach 2 this weekend.
Bad, uncouth, rude behavior is just the sorry state of society today. Politeness and concern for others is a thing of the past. Maybe that's why I just don't go to so many concerts anymore. I sure play a lot, though, and audience rudeness really gets to me. Clapping between movements is annoying (esp after the 3rd movement of Tchaik's 6th), but the worst offense of all has to be the cell phones.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Wednesday 10 April 2013, 22:16
Banish 'em to an island where the only radio station is ClassicFM.
Are there any presenters or other employees of Classicfm on here? I really supported this radio station when it launched (in the UK) in 1992, but it has just got so stale. They play the same pieces over and over again, ad nauseam. They have ruined certain pieces for me, including Rach 2, Dvorak New World, Bruch VC1, Rimsky-Korsakov Sheherezade, etc. Of course these are popular pieces, but do they really need several playings a day, and for snatches to be used in constant promotion? And then they have this ridiculous thing called the Hall of Fame: listeners are invited to send in their 3 favourite pieces, and on the basis of this the station compiles a Top 300. They then play the pieces from this Top 300 with very high frequency over the next 12 months, especially those in the top 10, whereupon they conduct the same exercise and surprise surprise the same pieces are voted in again, because precious little else has been played! If this was a general election or a referendum, observers would denounce it as biased, unfair and flawed.
And their jingle "Relax, it's Classicfm"....Did Shostakovich labour under constant fear of arrest and death so that someone could breathily say "Relax, it's Classicfm". Was it for this that Beethoven struggled with and triumphed over his deafness to produce some of the greatest music ever written?
I've heard the station is losing advertisers at a steady rate, and if this is true I am not surprised: as an advertiser I would be reluctant to be associated with something that had become so stale. And there's so much music, much listed on this website, that they could play....
There's a rant I've been meaning to get off my chest for a long time....
The problem's with any enterprise that's led by its audience's uninformed preferences rather than by knowledgeable experts and educators. Same in many walks of life. People don't want to be taught or have their minds stretched: let's all just share our ignorance instead...
And now, for some different takes on the matter:
http://www.musicaltoronto.org/2012/02/18/its-high-time-to-reconsider-applause-at-classical-concerts/ (http://www.musicaltoronto.org/2012/02/18/its-high-time-to-reconsider-applause-at-classical-concerts/)
http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/mar/08/classical-music-applause-rule-obama (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/mar/08/classical-music-applause-rule-obama)
http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/ae/uncategorized/applauding-the-relaxing-of-rules-of-clapping-in-classical-concerts-470751/ (http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/ae/uncategorized/applauding-the-relaxing-of-rules-of-clapping-in-classical-concerts-470751/)
And perhaps most telling:
http://www.artsjournal.com/sandow/2012/10/the-power-of-history.html (http://www.artsjournal.com/sandow/2012/10/the-power-of-history.html)
What an enjoyable thread. Magnificent to see the (mostly, I guess) middle aged male in full flight, glorying in his curdmudgeonliness, egged on by his peers :)
Needless to say, I agree with all that has been said, and would add my dislike of the "obligatory standing ovation" at the end of a piece. I used to think that this was a purely American phenomenon, but it is creeping into UK concert halls now. You sit through a perfectly competent, but hardly outstanding, performance of some warhorse or other and at the end people jump to their feet cheering. Others reluctantly rise to their feet until most of the audience has to do so, because not to would seem like criticism of what was an OK rendition. Of course, in another creeping practice, by that stage many people are not only standing, but almost running for the exits. At a Boston Symphony concert I took in a couple of years ago, fully a quarter of the audience had left before the conductor took his second bow.
Ba, humbug!
Applauding after the first movement of a virtuoso concerto wasn't out if practice. I believe that von Bülow said that he had applause in between his performance of Beethoven's 5th Piano Concerto. Lets look at the baroque and classical period multi-movement pieces where the applauding between the movement's would not have been a problem as opposed to the pieces [e.g. middle - late Beethoven.. I'm sure there are others] where a certain musical climate or idea would be broken if there were clapping between movements ... Applause between a Mahler symphony is murder! There is also another factor. In a country like India where western Classical is not the regular staple people do not know that sometimes you HAVE to wait for a piece to end before clapping. Now a days they make an announcement at the beginning of a concert requesting that the audience familiarize themselves with the printed program and not clap between the movement to fully appreciate the piece. I am happy to say that it seems to be working here!
I find applause both between movements and before the last note at the end of the concert has died away, very irritating. More recent irritations are people looking at their mobiles, rummaging for their bottled water and unwrapping sweets.
On the plus side, there is far less audience coughing, than twenty years ago.
Come to a Sunday Concert at Conway Hall, the audience behave very well.
There was an article in the last issue of BBC Music Magazine about this very subject, pointing out that practice has varied historically; in the 19th century applauding between movements was common, and remarks by some composers show that they evidently appreciated it.
A curmudgeonly moderator's request: please hyperlink all urls. It's very time-consuming to have to make constant modifications to posts.
Yes, standing ovations have become everyday. And folks here in the colonies will give an 8th grade volleyball team a standing ovation. It is a bit too much.
And my goodness, we have become a texting society. No one speaks anymore. Rstaurants, parks, theaters, concert halls, driving cars - yesterday we lunched at a nice cafe and two young, twentyish girls sat down across from us, and immediately whipped out their phones and started texting (or maybe gaming) and never spoke to each other.
How sad it is.....
Jerry
Texting is so yesterday. Now it's Twitter or Facebook.
Yup, a whole 'nother issue..... :'( :'( :'(
All those whom I text on a regular basis are younger than me - mostly students or ex-students of mine, in fact.
Anyway, back to applause. Let's hear it for the moderator. Or not, as the case may be...
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Thursday 11 April 2013, 07:42Needless to say, I agree with all that has been said, and would add my dislike of the "obligatory standing ovation" at the end of a piece. I used to think that this was a purely American phenomenon, but it is creeping into UK concert halls now. You sit through a perfectly competent, but hardly outstanding, performance of some warhorse or other and at the end people jump to their feet cheering. Others reluctantly rise to their feet until most of the audience has to do so, because not to would seem like criticism of what was an OK rendition.
This has been standard practice in Holland and Belgium since my student days (early 1990s), at least, but I get the impression that at least this particular phenomenon is on its retreat. German audiences have always been, and still are, much more discerning (in general, at least). This Christmas in Berlin (Philiharmonie), we witnessed the soloist in a decidedly average performance of Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue being rewarded by an audibly reluctant applause (compared to that for the orchestra and conductor). Shame for her, good for the music.
Quote from: Ilja on Thursday 11 April 2013, 16:02
Shame for her
Why? If she was only average, that's all she deserved. If she'd been good, it would have been a shame that she didn't get a better reception. If she'd been good; but she wasn't...
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Thursday 11 April 2013, 07:42
Needless to say, I agree with all that has been said, and would add my dislike of the "obligatory standing ovation" at the end of a piece. I used to think that this was a purely American phenomenon, but it is creeping into UK concert halls now. You sit through a perfectly competent, but hardly outstanding, performance of some warhorse or other and at the end people jump to their feet cheering. Others reluctantly rise to their feet until most of the audience has to do so, because not to would seem like criticism of what was an OK rendition.
Indeed. When I finished up my college degree a couple years ago I had to go to recitals as part of the requirement. I was almost the only one in the auditorium almost every time who didn't stand up at the end. it's so silly.
Um, I quite enjoy premature applause if it's seconds before the crash-bang end of a passionate opera (say, Carmen, Onegin, Madame Butterfly, Tosca,...) and it has been such a good performance that the audience is thoroughly revved up. It's almost like a cathartic explosion of tension. I imagine this might happen a lot in Italy!
Is that heresy?
Oh please don't let me be a curmudgeon, not yet, I'm not even 40! (just don't get me started on classicfm...!)
Quote from: Alan Howe on Thursday 11 April 2013, 14:59
Texting is so yesterday. Now it's Twitter or Facebook.
I am the last human on Earth that does not own a cell phone.
Not so, my 88 year old mother keeps you company.
My mother's nearly 86. But her mobile phone's likely to be off. She prefers real ones...
BTW - oh, actually it's the topic! - my mother wouldn't ever applaud after the first movement; but she might whisper rather too loudly half way through what she thought of the performance. And if we are at the opera, she'll definitely tell me what she thinks of the tenor - during the performance. But then she saw Gigli and Tauber, so who am I...?
In recent reviews of major orchestral concerts in the US it is noted that some sections of the audience applauded between movements, and that this (understandably, in my view) evoked large-scale 'shushing' and widespread whispered calls for quiet. The reviewers seemed to think that this reaction was more annoying than the applause - but somebody has to put a stop to it and immediate disapproval is, so the psychologists say, the most effective expression of disapproval.
What annoys me even more than inter-movement applause, however, is that fool who, just as a performance ends, has to shout 'bravo' before anyone else has even drawn breath or raised their hands in anticipation of clapping. Dare I say that the British seem to be especially keen to be first cab off the rank! >:(
There's a rather strange 'history of applause' and its meta-communicative functions at:
http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/03/a-brief-history-of-applause-the-big-data-of-the-ancient-world/274014/ (http://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/03/a-brief-history-of-applause-the-big-data-of-the-ancient-world/274014/)
Applause in unison would certainly be disconcerting to me, but is very common around the world. Does anyone here have experience of it at concerts? Or maybe even the slow hand clap? Scary!
Yes, I've been to a concert or two where the applause developed into a unison thing. Although I think you see more of that at Country Music shows and such.....
J
It's de rigeur in Russia.
I trust it is actually de rigueur; maybe the same people who taught them French taught them silly clapping too...
Here in Scotland audiences are very well-behaved and you have to be very, very good to get an ovation.
Incidentally, some posts in this thread remind me of a story about a proms concert many years ago. I don't recall the piece, but it had a sustained fortissimo climax followed by a hushed silence. As the loud music abruptly ceased, a voice was heard in the audience saying loudly, "... actually, we always put jam on ours".
Quote from: Gauk on Friday 12 April 2013, 07:27
Here in Scotland audiences are very well-behaved and you have to be very, very good to get an ovation.
Quite right too. And no clapping in church either, I trust...
I too find applause at the end of movements, and "too eager applause" at the end of pieces very annoying. Despite what we are told was the custom in previous centuries, I think it is quite simply rude - discourteous to the performers and to one's fellow audience members - and displays an insensitivity to the music.
However, I have no objection to clapping in church. A church is a meeting place, and not somewhere in which always to be solemn and speak in hushed tones. When one first enters one should always show respect and not talk loudly because others might be praying - to do otherwise would be discourteous. But if the church is being used as a concert hall civilised behaviour appropriate to a concert hall is not out of place. Nobody will be using the church for private prayer at that time. The practice of refraining from applause in church seems to be a characteristic of a certain type of po-faced Anglicanism. It is not considered disrespectful in Roman Catholic churches, Anglo-Catholic churches, Methodist chapels, or Lutheran churches, where concerts are held - at least, not in my experience. Applause is an expression of admiration and joy - and God delights in such manifestations from his creation.
Following the Solemn Requiem for the late much-loved Robert Washington Shirley, 13th Earl Ferrers, in January at the Church of St Magnus Martyr in London, a table had been laid out in the North aisle and champagne (Robin Ferrers' favourite tipple) was opened and enjoyed by all. When his son, the present 14th Earl, thanked the Canon Precentor of Norwich Cathedral for his eulogy, there was tumultuous applause. It is also customary in many churches and cathedrals (Chichester Cathedral, Norwich Cathedral, Llandaff Cathedral; St Peter's, Eaton Square; St Mary's, Bourne Street; etc.) for those who have remained seated in order to enjoy the organ voluntary that has closed the service to clap the organist when he has finished playing to show their appreciation. This is a good thing and no disrespect to the Almighty.
I was at a Bournemouth Symphony Orchestra performance of Tchaik 5 once where a lunatic who had no sense of musicality at all shouted "Bravo!" and clapped wildly at that point in the Finale where there are repeated dominant chords over a timpani roll, followed by a silent pause just before the E major restatement of the main theme. He looked a complete idiot, of course, but the damage to the performance was immense....
I recall (vividly) the York Festival in 1969 coinciding with my graduation from the University. One of the major events in the Festival was a performance in York Minster of Mahler 2 given by the Halle under Barbirolli. The Minster was packed and there was tremendous excitement about the place. Difficult to appreciate now, but Mahler was then quite new to British audiences and had only recently been discovered. (Only a few years previously I had been a schoolboy, and I remember a music master exclaiming 'Who?' when I expressed an interest in finding out more about Mahler). I guess it was Barbirolli who was near the forefront of introducing Mahler to British audiences. Throughout the Festival I had landed myself the jammy job of selling programmes, directing people to seats and so forth - and in return I had almost a month's worth of free concerts and being able to choose my own seat.
So what's all that got to do with applause? Well, in a leaflet that I was directed to place on each seat before the audience was admitted the Dean and Chapter had expressed the wish that the audience at the end of the performance should contain their appreciation 'inwardly' and to refrain from applauding. It was, I suppose, entirely their right to do so.
I recall the most tremendous performance with orchestra, chorus and soloists giving it their all. It was also the very first time I had heard a Mahler symphony in the flesh, and I guess it was the same for most of the audience.
At the conclusion the audience sat there quite literally stunned. Barbirolli, then a very frail looking man, stood in front of his orchestra, head bowed, and clearly in some awe of what had been achieved. Two or three minutes passed. And then we heard some brave soul right at the back of the Minster near the East Door slowly start a solitary and heartfelt handclap. Within a minute or so this spread to the entire audience, and gradually the whole immense throng of people rose to their feet to continue this applause. Great waves of sound spread through the church. I think it was not only Mahler, but the sense that Barbirolli was near the end of his life and people wanted to thank him not only for this concert but his whole life's work.
In all my years of concert going I've never again encountered anything like it. The applause must have continued for 20 minutes or so, the orchestra and chorus joined in applauding their much loved conductor, and Barbirolli himself returned time and time again to the platform quite visibly moved. From my most privileged seat just behind the conductor's podium I could see tears streaming down Barbirolli's face. He died exactly a year later in July 1970, and I guess everyone in the audience was conscious that this would be one of his final performances. And what a performance! I think it must be counted as one of the most significant musical experiences of my life.
Now where was I? Ah, yes, applause, and in a church what is more!
But not in a church service. Yuck!
Peter - what a great post! I would have loved to have been there. It's just the kind of reaction that great music should produce - and the mighty Mahler 2nd is great music. And not only that but in the splendour of York Minster, newly graduated - and there for free! No wonder you recall it so vividly. :)
A really vivid piece of recollection, Peter. I know York Minster quite well and your storytelling gave me a very clear image of what must have been a wonderful experience. My first exposure to Mahler's Second (in Leeds Town Hall) was not at all memorable, except for the music itself, the close of which reduced me to tears and, indeed, still does.
I want to contribute my Mahler 2 experience, I was in the orchestra however. The orchestra was semi-pro and the performance was far from perfect - but it was heartfelt and intense. Near the close, at the moment the choir uttered its last "Zu Gott", with another minute of orchestral playing to go, the audience rose to its feet and began clapping fervently. What the heck was going on? When the orchestra ended, the audience overwhelmed us with cheering, bravos, clapping. People were standing on their seats. It was the first time the Resurrection had been given live in Flagstaff. For us, it was a major achievement - and the effect on the audience was electric. It was a one-time concert with no repeat. I've played in far better orchestras since then, but the memories of that concert still linger. There is something special about the 2nd that very few other works have. Not even the Beethoven 9th has that effect on people.
When applause is that spontaneous - and heartfelt - rules surely don't apply...
Seconded.
It's not a bad behaviorial issue: (ie: clapping is bad manners) - it has never been bad manners to show appreciation. In fact in Chinese opera today the audience bring in food and drinks and talk all the way through. Which is probably understandable when the performances drag on for seven hours. At the tiny Ulaan Baatar Opera House in Mongolia, the locals applaud all the time. Having kids of six and even sit through Aida yet having them enjoy it at that age - even though they may not underdstand everything - is the starting point of the next generation appreciating our classical cultural inheritance. Who do we think we are to impose social conditions that restrict classical music to purely being an orchestral offshoot of 'adult entertainment'. How pretentious and snobbish. No thanks.
Actually not clapping is a relatively recent thing, one can perhaps blame the British reserve for spreading this about from the late Victorian era onwards, prior to this anything went. And sometimes still does - consider La Scala, even today. Paying members of the audience also have the right to show their appreciation - or otherwise. Just look at the infamous premiere of "Rite of Spring" (see: http://www.guardian.co.uk/stage/2013/apr/12/rite-of-spring-rude-awakening).
Mobile phones etc are a no-no, that's a given. But applause? That's a matter of where best to place appropriate admiration within a performance .
My personal view is that we follow contemporary protocol and wait until the end. However, there are certain performances where perhaps the audience could be encouraged to applaud if the conductor felt it appropriate. It could be written into the program notes. Plus remember, the composers themselves - those who wrote the actual music - left no instructions on the matter. So I guess they'd be happy either way.
This then means I suspect that it leaves it for the Conductor to decide. Maybe more should explain through their programme notes whether or not they feel it appropriate for an audience to applaud or not after each movement. As the interpreters of the music we are to listen to, I feel it is their authority on the matter that counts. And if a certain conductor feels a movement should be allowed a round of applause prior to the next movement beginning, I'd have no qualms about joining in. In fact doing so at weekend afternoon matinees may actually encourage more children to join in and be more engaging betwist audience, the musicians, and the composer. Certainly the Met, with an average age of about 103 of it's performance goers could use a little encouragement in getting the next generations to "pass the baton". Some performances have become more revered than is absolutely necessary. Music should not be socially intimidating or bound up in arguments over reserved appreciation lest we spoil the knot in our black tie. But neither do I appreciate the orgasmic whoops of joy before the final bars of a piece have had time to fade.
The reverse point is also true however. Valery Gergiev, when conducting Tchaikovsky's sixth, always leaves his right arm stretched out at the end of the symphony for a good 30 seconds to allow the audience to fully appreciate a melodramic silence of Tchaikovsky's farewell. Rather more dignified that the immediate applause that would otherwise break out when one of Russia's finest composers has musically described the ending of his life.
It's not a matter of good or bad manners. It is a matter of appropriate admiration being demonstrated at the appropriate time. And in a multicultural world, the conductor should be the main arbitrator of audience participation towards a work he is solely responsible for interpreting. More guidance from conductors please, and less snobbery on the matter from the old farts over what constitute appropriate manners.
You'll all be expecting us to wait until the last person has been served our dinner to commence eating next, and then where would we be? I prefer my dishes served hot as the chef intended. Let the conductor be the arbitrator on the issue, not Debretts. And let's have a few more conductors let us know if they feel it is OK to applaud - or otherwise. - Chris
I think, Chris, that (to use your term) I'll happily throw in my lot with the old farts. I'd much prefer the conductor to be concentrating on the music, rather than judging when it would be appropriate for a bit of applause. The conductor should surely be ignoring the audience - not her or his job to whip up a bit of enthusiasm in the auditorium. And heavens just think of how some conductors (no names!) would relish the chance to do so. It has nothing to do with snobbery - but concerts are about the performance of music, not crowd control.
And what do you do in the case of, for example, a piano recital? Does the pianist leap from his stool, grin at the audience, and exclaim 'Come on, folks, bit of applause now.....louder!'.
Quote from: petershott@btinternet.com on Saturday 13 April 2013, 21:47
I think, Chris, that (to use your term) I'll happily throw in my lot with the old farts. I'd much prefer the conductor to be concentrating on the music, rather than judging when it would be appropriate for a bit of applause. The conductor should surely be ignoring the audience - not her or his job to whip up a bit of enthusiasm in the auditorium. And heavens just think of how some conductors (no names!) would relish the chance to do so. It has nothing to do with snobbery - but concerts are about the performance of music, not crowd control.
And what do you do in the case of, for example, a piano recital? Does the pianist leap from his stool, grin at the audience, and exclaim 'Come on, folks, bit of applause now.....louder!'.
Well said ;)
Don't you feel, however, that the conductor may actually plan the decision whether to permit applause prior to the performance ahead of time? Read what I said properly please. You seem to suggest I'd like them to spontaenously burst into raptures and encourage us sitting in the seats to cheer on like Ra-Ra Girls with Pom-Poms. That's not what I suggested at all.
Applause is a matter of showing appreciation. It is never bad manners. Preventing other people from showing their appreciation however is the height of social pomposity. The issue is nothing to do with manners or even etiquette. It is to do with the most appropriate place, during a performance, in which to insert such appreciation. I would suggest that is not necessarily hard and fast for every single piece of classical music, and that the conductor should be the judge, not some old buffer sitting in row C14 who feels everyone should bend to his or her idea of social niceties.
Good Lord you'll be telling the Conductor what to wear next. And banning women from appearing on the stage again. Bring back Castratos we can't have these felamles singing in public. Times need to move on and adapt. And the best gauge of the appropriate guidance as concerns the public appreciation of a performance should be the conductor. After, all, he / or she is usually weaponized. "Applaud damn it or you'll feel the lash of my baton, Sir!"
Quote from: ChrisDevonshireEllis on Sunday 14 April 2013, 04:38
Applause is a matter of showing appreciation. It is never bad manners.
Not necessarily. This may be true for the majority of us who go to concerts, etc. for the right reasons. But at various times and in various places applause is/has not been an expression of appreciation, but some sort of narcissistic activity designed to draw attention not to the performers but to the audience members in question. When applause of this kind occurs it is the height of bad manners.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsWuH0-Q8UU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LsWuH0-Q8UU)
This is rather amusing.
Crowd control is not entirely unimportant when it comes to performing the unsungs, since the combination of being confronted by unknown works and the desire to show proper appreciation can be confusing.
Two years ago, I attended a performance of Braga Santos' Fourth symphony in Lisbon, and the general pause about five minutes before the end (at the beginning of the march that leads up to the coda) was misunderstood by some in the audience as the end of the piece (they were no doubt eager for interval refreshments), which created a somewhat awkward atmosphere. In the same year, Dmitri Kitaenko conducted the Berliner Philharmoniker in Scriabin's Third, and used a timpani roll to 'glue together' the three big orchestral 'blows' that end the piece - no doubt with the idea to prevent what happened in Lisbon.
I'm with Christopher to some degree on the question of the conductor properly holding back applause at the end of a piece until the moment he judges it to be appropriate. It seems to me to be entirely legitimate: silence is as important as noise in music and it's right that the conductor determines when the performance is actually over. Gergiev's practice of holding out his arm might be an extreme and rather aggressive/patronising example, but I have often seen conductors just maintaining their final stance after the music has ended to be enough to still audiences for a few vital seconds. As soon as the conductor relaxes, the applause begins. Of course many pieces, Mahler's Resurrection Symphony being an obvious example, just cry out for an immediate audience response and I'm sure that no conductor would attempt to hold it back.
Thank you - as I suggested - whether to applause or not has the conductors discretion, not those of you frantically thumbing the old reference guide "Opera Etiquette for Aristocrats" (London, Pompous and Flatulent Publishing Ltd, 1917) for guidance.
I'm seeing "Moses in Egypt" at the Met on Tuesday; I may find it hard to suppress a loud and raucous cheer of relief when the babe is pulled from the bullrushes. Because otherwise there wouldn't be a story to tell at all. I'll let you know what happened. - Chris
Next time we hear the shock of the new in the opening bars of Beethoven 5, we should all express our feelings in the pauses obviously provided for that purpose by the composer.
Not.
the word "judgment" comes to mind... (as does the expression "common sense and other oxymorons" :) Anyhow. Agreed.)
No, the next time we hear the shock of the new at the opening of Beethoven's 5th symphony, we should be glad we have heard the shock of the new in a piece we thought we knew so well. Excepting the many to whom it is new, as everything is new to everyone for awhile, apologies for the banality... (they are not regular readers of this forum, at a guess.) (paragraph inserted (while Alan was responding, as it happens) on reflection.)
Well said, Eric.
Not to mention self-control - a much derided virtue in our day - and consideration for others.
And appreciation is not considered consideration for others. How bizzarre.
It's a debate about the concept of appreciation, gentlemen, not etiquette. They are rather different things.
Quote from: ChrisDevonshireEllis on Sunday 14 April 2013, 17:41
Thank you - as I suggested - whether to applause or not has the conductors discretion, not those of you frantically thumbing the old reference guide "Opera Etiquette for Aristocrats" (London, Pompous and Flatulent Publishing Ltd, 1917) for guidance.
I'm seeing "Moses in Egypt" at the Met on Tuesday; I may find it hard to suppress a loud and raucous cheer of relief when the babe is pulled from the bullrushes. Because otherwise there wouldn't be a story to tell at all. I'll let you know what happened. - Chris
Geez, it's Sunday. Have a cuppa tea and relax. And feel free to applaud if it's a particularly nice cuppa tea.
Quote from: ChrisDevonshireEllis on Sunday 14 April 2013, 17:41
"Opera Etiquette for Aristocrats" (London, Pompous and Flatulent Publishing Ltd, 1917) for guidance.
It was 1916. Dashed bad form to get this wrong I must say.
Thal
Quote from: ChrisDevonshireEllis on Sunday 14 April 2013, 19:04
It's a debate about the concept of appreciation, gentlemen, not etiquette. They are rather different things.
It's not a debate about appreciation, but about the
expression of appreciation, which is what applause is (or is supposed to be). The former (appreciation) can be a purely private affair, kept entirely to oneself. However, in public, its expression inevitably impinges upon other people - and that's where etiquette comes in...
Well we're getting into so many split hairs now I think we all need a good soak of conditioner. I tell you what, if appreciation can be expressed within and doesn't need to be uttered, don't say "Thank you" any more when people give you a present, then explain your theory to them at that time. You'll be able to experience first hand what people think about that.
Meanwhile, I await the enlightened conductor who verbally encourages some applause - within the pieces of work that are appropriate -
and at the appropriate juncture within the performance. Otherwise, I will follow your suggested protocol but it rather depends upon where I am. I may boo at La Scala or clap during performances in Ulaan Baatar. In Convent Garden I shall keep quiet, although I remind you all that this is the same venue that diplayed a graphic oral sex scene when Anna Nicole in the opera of the same name goes down on her 90 year old lover and then wipes the semen off her mouth with a hankie. Not totally romantic, I must admit, but I certainly felt like giving a round of applause for the old buffer.
I must confess, I even let out a laugh at "Meistersingers" once, and a positive guffaw at the Met Premiere of "Elisir d'Amore" when the love potion is revealed to be cheap Bordeaux plonk. When I was younger I used to loudly boo the wicked witch in panto, and I can assure you it was the most delightful fun. Wagner's "Ring" could do with plenty of that, given all the nasty characters that show up.
I'll tell you what - I'll advise which performances I'll be at, including seat numbers, and if you happen to be planning on attending either please don't come or sit up in the Gods where you won't have to hear me chortle loudly and clap enthusiastically right next to your hearing aids. Other than that I'll be quiet. But some of you should lighten up a bit as well. "Music? Fun? Good God man whoever gave you that idea?" - Chris
OK, now I know not to visit the forum whilst having dinner.
Quote from: ChrisDevonshireEllis on Sunday 14 April 2013, 22:05...In Convent Garden I shall keep quiet, although I remind you all that this is the same venue that diplayed a graphic oral sex scene when Anna Nicole in the opera of the same name goes down on her 90 year old lover and then wipes the semen off her mouth with a hankie. Not totally romantic, I must admit, but I certainly felt like giving a round of applause for the old buffer.
Shouldn't that be "duffer"? And she didn't swallow? No, I guess that would have been insufficently theatrical. ;D
Quote from: ChrisDevonshireEllis on Sunday 14 April 2013, 22:05
Well we're getting into so many split hairs now I think we all need a good soak of conditioner. I tell you what, if appreciation can be expressed within and doesn't need to be uttered, don't say "Thank you" any more when people give you a present, then explain your theory to them at that time. You'll be able to experience first hand what people think about that.
No split hairs here. Just a careful laying-bare of a poor argument. So, just to clarify:
1. Appreciation is not applause. We might think of it as a feeling or attitude in acknowledgment of a benefit that one has received. In other words, it begins inside the self.
2. Applause is simply one of the ways in which this feeling of appreciation can be expressed. Others include thanking, kissing, a handshake, etc.
3. I nowhere said that appreciation doesn't need to be uttered; I merely distinguished it from the means of its expression. Of course appreciation should be expressed: the question is how and when. In the context of this thread, the debate has centred - quite rightly - upon these matters of how and when.
... oy, when the argument becomes are-you-saying-that-music-can't-be-fun we have entered reductio ad absurdum territory for good and all (admittedly, sometimes contested territory, but not its existence so much as... oh, plenty of things. But then... that parrot is long dead.)
(I should Hoffnung so?)
Perhaps we can move on? This discussion is getting tedious and repetitive.
APPPLLAUAAASE
Indeed. Back to the debate...
Quote from: Alan Howe on Wednesday 10 April 2013, 22:16
Banish 'em to an island where the only radio station is ClassicFM.
At least then they will only HAVE one movement after which to applaud.
QuoteIt's de rigueur in Russia.
Not only in Russia but it's still normal throughout the ex-DDR and I've heard it and joined in (it's hardly possible not to) in Budapest and Prague, so, I guess is commonplace throughout eastern Europe.
I've also experienced the opposite extreme to premature clapping - silence. After Poulenc's
Dialogues des carmélites and Penderecki's
The Devils of Loudoun the audience mutually felt it was totally inappropriate to clap after the horrors that had been portrayed. They only showed their appreciation when the artists returned to the stage for their bows.
One thing you read about in music history which actually requires applause after a movement, are those rare occasions when the audience is so swept away by a particular movement of a new work that they applaud to demand that the movement is repeated. I have actually witnessed such an event, and it must be even rarer today than it was 100 years ago. The occasion was the UK première (rather a late one) of the 2nd symphony of Hendrik Andriessen, given by an amateur orchestra in Edinburgh some years ago. The audience was not one inclined to applaud between movements ever, but the scherzo was followed by a storm of applause that continued until the conductor agreed to play the movement again. Everyone was quite happy!
A scholarly paper I encountered yesterday (not on a musical topic) suggested that there was something mystical, if not divine, about the very short silence between the end of a great musical performance and the start of applause. It certainly can be a magical moment, wouldn't you agree? :)
Indeed. My point about Gergiev. The "magical silence".
I once attended "Rite" at the Met and the end was ruined by overly and immediate cheering. Inappropriate, a young girl has just danced herself to death.
On the other hand how about applause after arias? I just saw Moses in Egypt at the NYOC and that audience (average age: 304) didn't mind letting their hair down after a decent warble.
Quote from: petershott@btinternet.com on Friday 12 April 2013, 19:44
I recall (vividly) the York Festival in 1969 coinciding with my graduation from the University. One of the major events in the Festival was a performance in York Minster of Mahler 2 given by the Halle under Barbirolli. The Minster was packed and there was tremendous excitement about the place...
I was also there!
Quote from: petershott@btinternet.com on Friday 12 April 2013, 19:44...I recall the most tremendous performance with orchestra, chorus and soloists giving it their all. It was also the very first time I had heard a Mahler symphony in the flesh, and I guess it was the same for most of the audience...
Me too.
Quote from: petershott@btinternet.com on Friday 12 April 2013, 19:44...I think it must be counted as one of the most significant musical experiences of my life...
Me too.
How extraordinary to have found this item! (The power of google!)
I felt compelled to join the forum and add my thoughts.
I was 17 at the time and I think it was one of the biggest factors that made me change my choice of university course.
I had a sandwich course planned with Rolls Royce to become a mechanical engineer.
I decided to change this to study Physics with the hope of becoming a music engineer.
And I actually managed it. I got a job with the BBC and had my dream come true.
(I remember at the time that my parents completely freaked out over this mad decision!)
One of the last concerts I recorded before leaving the beeb was Mahler 5 at the Proms with Bernstein - another of "the most significant musical experiences of my life".
Welcome to the forum. The power of Google indeed!
Audience behavior whether in a concert hall or theatre or cinema can be very irritating. In concerts, if there is hearty applause at the end of a movement, perhaps they should repeat it!!!!!
this has been known to happen, at least in the past and famously so.
Unfortunately I was once witness to a performance of Braga Santos' Fourth Symphony where the audience, apparently eager for interval refreshments, started their applause about five minutes too early, just before the finale. Even more a pity because it was a great performance and because it took place in the composer's home town, Lisbon.
More like applause after a -third- movement, and out of the best of intentions, but I hope this amuses a little...
There's a piano concerto for the left hand by a very well-known composer (later than our coverage period) which after the "usual three movements" - and after the third movement comes to a decisive-sounding close (in the wrong key- I mean, not the right key to close the piece, so to speak, at least by the rules this composer, too, usually followed... if one can hear such things- I couldn't, when I heard the piece live, back in 1987) - well, he adds a very, very brief finale, basically a recall of the opening movement. (Yes, this work is well-known. When I first heard it was also when I first heard of it; I think Leon Fleisher was doing the honors, at Tanglewood. I was a summer student at a math program in Massachusetts after my senior year of high school, and we went to Tanglewood twice on weekends that year- but anyway.) So of course... three movements- decisive-sounding close- what do you think happens?
You could barely hear the quiet brief finale for all the applause- including my own! - because everyone thought the work was finished!
Makes sense to me, alas.
Quote from: eschiss1 on Wednesday 13 November 2013, 01:13
More like applause after a -third- movement, and out of the best of intentions, but I hope this amuses a little...
There's a piano concerto for the left hand by a very well-known composer (later than our coverage period) which after the "usual three movements" - and after the third movement comes to a decisive-sounding close (in the wrong key- I mean, not the right key to close the piece, so to speak, at least by the rules this composer, too, usually followed... if one can hear such things- I couldn't, when I heard the piece live, back in 1987) - well, he adds a very, very brief finale, basically a recall of the opening movement. (Yes, this work is well-known. When I first heard it was also when I first heard of it; I think Leon Fleisher was doing the honors, at Tanglewood. I was a summer student at a math program in Massachusetts after my senior year of high school, and we went to Tanglewood twice on weekends that year- but anyway.) So of course... three movements- decisive-sounding close- what do you think happens?
You could barely hear the quiet brief finale for all the applause- including my own! - because everyone thought the work was finished!
Makes sense to me, alas.
Prokofiev 4?
Yup. That sort of Romeo-and-Juliet-ish (so I've heard it said) one.
I've sat through quite a few performances in which I really wanted to stand, stretch, yawn, talk to my neighbor, and skip any more of the noise coming from the stage.
I've also sat through some performances in which a bit of applause between movements would have awakened me. I would have been mightily perturbed about that, as I would then have had to once again go through the entire process of boredom, grogginess, drifting off, into snoring along with the music.
And this -- if people burst into applause after the first movement, it is a pretty good indication that they have not attended concerts before and are unaware of the rule against applauding between movements. Most likely, they are mortified by their error and many are dismayed at the constipated atmosphere of old farts sitting in abject silence. These newcomers often do not return.
Finally, why is it alright (and even expected) to applaud arias throughout an opera, but not great musical enjoyment during a concert?