I recently received a download from Naxos of the Rott Symphony, a once forgotten work until 1989 and now has several recordings to choose from. Has anyone else heard this recording yet? Acousence is a new company to me.
Tom
I can't seem to find it at the Acousence website, but I may not be looking in the right place (on their website - acousence.de (http://www.acousence.de)). Intriguing CDs of Serbian piano works and stuff though... (hrm- this may be the label that released Rott's symphony for strings and string quartet - at least, it's on their site in their Living Concert section... but no Raff under search... hrm. ... curious, curious...)
Ah, what nostalgia... Acousence provided me with the first opportunity to listen to the rather marvellous Hans Rott String Quartet.
Apologies...nothing to do with Raff.
I've also never come across a recording of Raff on Acousence. I wonder, Tom, whether you might be mixing up labels in the excitement of listening to Raff?
In my excitement I did mean Rott. The conductor is Catherine Ruckwardt and there are no fillers. I know I prefer this recording to the Hyperion/Cincinnati. I think it is a winner but I've not heard the other recordings.
Tom
Alan could you change the thread title to Rott instead of Raff?
Tom
Done!
Regards,
Alan
Ah! Ok.
here's a link and audio samples (http://www.acousence.de/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=194%3A2009-08-15-12-19-10&catid=70%3Adetails&Itemid=66&lang=en) to/for* the Rott (full-orchestra) symphony 1 CD in question, btw.
Thanks for mentioning this label, very interesting and helpful website, it seems to me (not trying to curse with faint praise, just pointing out something obvious and sound-unrelated, yes, but praiseworthy... :) haven't yet heard their recordings myself.)
*as prepositions go, that one's a tofor!
Well, this thread has gotten expensive. Many thanks for pointing out this previously unknown (to me) label. I'm a sucker for the Rott, and the sound samples provided are very impressive. Ordered it, and the other Rott disk. Then, a Mahler 6th that correctly puts the Andante second, and at a tempo that is what I have longed for someone to do - it isn't Adagio. And a FLAC disk to boot! And a Mahler 5, too. Looking forward to hearing them, esp. the Rott. While I'm at it: the Hyperion isn't the best version out there. It was the first, and for that I am grateful. If G Samuel hadn't made the effort who knows if or when we would have heard the symphony.
... I thought that was on Centaur, but I'm thinking of other recordings of Samuel's. The Centaur recording of the Rott isn't even the 2nd, it's the 3rd, apparently (after the Hyperion and the BIS, and I could be missing another of course...) (My! Hyperion-now-on-Helios, BIS, Centaur, cpo 2002, Arte Nova 2004, then this one 2011 I think- that seems offhand not so bad for a once almost unknown symphony- as a relative thing (not so bad, not too many or enough :) )
I'll have to hear the Mahler 6 played with the Andante 2nd more often- correctly or not, it's always made more sense to me for it to be third and sounded better to me too- so far. Familiarity is 99% of the law, of course...
Listening to the Rott brings to mind Stravinsky's dictum: "Lesser artists borrow; Great artists steal." Mahler stole kit and kaboodle from Rott. He took the curtains, appliances, copper pipe, everything - and he put it to good use.
Paavo Järvi's performance on RCA is the best so far. IMHO!
I don't disagree with that last recommendation. However given the change of title to the thread I would request it be changed not to 'Rott Symphony No. 1/Acousence' but to, simply, 'Rott / Acousence'.
After all, the thread lurched from 'Raff' to 'Rott' since Tom's claims about Raff and Acousence ran into a brick wall, and then (although irrelevant at the time) I happened to recall my pleasure in getting to know the Rott quartet through the Acousence recording of it.
Poor quartet, for it has now been swamped by the symphony. Whatever the merits of the latter (and for me it is just too much of a formless wallow), the Rott String Quartet is an immensely satisfying work. The present title of the thread is prejudicial to it, and, please, do not allow us to overlook this fine and unique work.
The quartet, incidentally, got a second recording at the end of last year when Quintone released a recording by the Israel String Quartet.
Quote from: petershott@btinternet.com on Sunday 20 October 2013, 13:04
...and for me it is just too much of a formless wallow...
It is formless, does wander, and it never lives up to that marvelous, evocative introduction. I love it anyway - warts and all. If you know the Mahler canon well, it is quite revealing to listen to the Rott.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Sunday 20 October 2013, 05:33
Paavo Järvi's performance on RCA is the best so far. IMHO!
Now I'm curious as to the reading and the sound quality of the Jarvi release. Again I'm sorry for the mixup in names. I fear this was one of the results of the stroke I had sometime back.
Paavo Järvi's reading is swift and points up the Mahler connection much more clearly than the other recordings available. The recording is superlative.
No apologies needed, Tom, by the way. Glad to have you here.
Whilst not as good an interpretation as Segerstam's, Rückwardt on Acousence (2004) is a top Rott Symphony CD. This has been recorded 10 times and concerts are usually not with leading conductors and orchestras: so the work has yet to establish a performing tradition, although what has emerged so far at the extremes is:
* The slow dramatic approach allowing tempo variation, spearheaded by Segerstam who isn't afraid of Rott (like Mahler) mixing mess with beauty
* The over-paced sanitised approach taken by Jarvi.
Rückwardt, though not as expansive as Segerstam, belongs in the first camp which doubtless has more fidelity with what Rott wanted and heard in his head. She isn't ashamed to let us hear triangle or heavy texture and gets into the swing and swagger of the Scherzo. Where it counts most she scores most, in the dramatic narrative fantasy of this third movement, where she surpasses even Segerstam (although he's still best at varying the tempo and overall in handling the psychological drama) and shows up the unfeeling shallowness of Jarvi who sidesteps all of this and loses the plot.
Rückward is one of the few who, vitally, realises the brief love theme and she does it by far the best. She seems to feel how Hans Rott imagines it would be like to take his Louise out of the Viennese ball for a interlude in which he just can't pluck up the nerve to express his love and returns to the ball without even a kiss.
What is so striking and effective is how Rückwardt transitions through this movement, bringing out the changes in Rott's emotional state, from the love scene to the yearning and pining, and on from the disappointment to Rott's anger and rants, whipping it up into the frenzy as Rott's emotional world starts to collapse because he can't control his feelings and shouts in protest and scorn at the other couples who dance on, obliviously, in what he parodies as a ghost waltz, before he plunges into the crisis of the finale.
I can't agree about Segerstam. He's simply far too slow. As I said before, Järvi fils' interpretation is much more colourful and less portentous than Segerstam's and places the piece a stone's throw from Mahler 1, which is where it belongs. This review is spot-on:
http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=754211 (http://www.arkivmusic.com/classical/album.jsp?album_id=754211)
If Segerstam's 1992 CD with Norrkoping SO is too slow at over 10 minutes longer than Jarvi then what do we make of the opinion of the Internationale Hans Rott Gesellschaft secretary on Segerstam's 1994 live performance with Swedish RSO? He says it's even better (apart from the finale's tired fluffed brass) – and that's 2½ minutes longer than Segerstam's CD! And he says it's better, primarily, because of the tempo.
The arkivmusic suggestion that Segersam's is too Brucknerian is odd, given that the core theme of Rott's symphony is based on Bruckner 5. That being so, and given that Bruckner taught Rott (including while he was composing the first movement) and was one of Rott's heroes and Bruckner's music is one of the main quotes (repeatedly) in Rott's finale, then it would be surprising if this work didn't resemble Bruckner's symphonies.
Do Frankfurt sound good? Yes they do. Is theirs a populist rendition? Yes it is. Is it faithful to the score? No it isn't!
Now any of us is entitled to prefer Jarvi's interrpretation but it's not the real thing. Maybe you're thinking it's better than the real thing? Maybe we should commend improvements on Beethoven's work too?
Jarvi is completely on his own, right off the scale of all the other conductors, both in playing so fast and cleaning it up so much (a bit like the crappy restoration of Da Vinci's 'The Last Supper'). What Jarvi does exceeds the parameters of interpretation and it's especially disingenuous to do this with Rott's symphony. The work isn't well known and hasn't an established performing tradition. So, many who hear it will think that's how Rott wrote it and how it's supposed to be. Jarvi takes liberties that he wouldn't dare try with a Mahler symphony. What makes it such a travesty is discarding the autobiographical narrative which is an essential part of Rott's composition. Jarvi simply has no storyline, no authenticity and (though he may well actually know better) delivers no understanding of Rott's music or personal world.
Well, we'll just have to agree to disagree, I guess. Needless to say, I agree with the Fanfare reviewer quoted at ArkivMusic. I suggest we now move on...
All of this talk has made me want to hear all of the recordings of it at least once.
Tom :)
...which is the fruit of good, robust discussion. Go for them, Tom!
I'm not sure of the value of hearing them all, quite apart from the difficulty of obtaining them. Four recordings are hard to get (van Steen, Layer, Campestrini, Piehlmayer) and doubtfully worth the effort of doing so.
Of the live non-CD recordings, two were members-only Hans Rott society: the Segerstam 1994 being remarkable but ultimately wrecked by the brass in the finale and Sammuel 1993 with Baden-Baden, which suffers from an odd pitch and was nothing to get very excited about anyway. Jarvi's 2010 Cincinnati SO is very similar to his Frankfurt CD, Meister's 2011 Orf RSO isn't especially distinctive and Gilbert's 2003 Houston SO has disappeared.
The Russell Davies and Weigle CDs have always been readily available and though some rave about them, they are disappointingly wooden. Different but of value is Erwin Horn's 2007 organ transcription of the first two movements, given that Rott composed his symphony on this instrument.
So whilst there seems to be a quite a range of listening choice the practical field, without really missing anything of quality, boils down to the first two issued - Sammuel/Cincinnati PO and Segerstam/Norrkoping PO, the Rückwardt and the Jarvi/Frankfurt.
A useful summary, thanks!
And "good, robust discussion" seems to have squashed flat a rather fine quartet that does not deserve to be consigned to oblivion. I sign off in a huff.
We do have a recording of the quartet in downloads (though missing a movement I think- was it revised, does it exist in two versions?) and it might be good to start a thread on the work itself.
Mr. Barasi, funny you should mention improvements on Beethoven's work. Rott had this friend named Gustav Mahler.
Quote from: petershott@btinternet.com on Sunday 20 October 2013, 13:04
After all, the thread lurched from 'Raff' to 'Rott' since Tom's claims about Raff and Acousence ran into a brick wall...
Quote from: petershott@btinternet.com on Monday 21 October 2013, 12:31
And "good, robust discussion" seems to have squashed flat a rather fine quartet that does not deserve to be consigned to oblivion. I sign off in a huff.
Tom mistakenly typed Raff instead of Rott - but he launched the thread on the topic of the
Symphony. The thread was never about Raff, nor about Rott in general, but about Rott's Symphony.
I have now started a new thread on Rott's Quartet. If it doesn't attract a discussion, I'm going to be extreeeeemely upset ;)
I'm looking around now for a good price on the Jarvi recording.
Tom
Quote from: eschiss1 on Monday 21 October 2013, 12:51
improvements on Beethoven's work. Rott had this friend named Gustav Mahler.
I'm not convinced Mahler was attempting to improve on Beethoven. He had a thing about fitting music to concert hall, even for his own works. He also had a thing about adapting Schumann and Beethoven to fit the orchestra of his own time. I don't recall thinking when I heard his editing that he had really messed with their symphonies.
But perhaps Mahler would have messed with Rott's symphony, which he studied again in 1900, with a view to a performance in Vienna. This of course never happened and some have suggested that the reason was not because he felt it missed the mark but that his frequent lifting of quotes from Rott's symphony (done as a memorial and to preserve Rott's music as a legacy within his own) would have exposed him to false accusations of plagiarism.
I think the reason why Mahler didn't perform Rott's symphony is that he had improved on it in so many places it would have been odd for him to go backwards to the original and it would be wrong to re-write it. Also, he couldn't just get it performed. The 1989 premiere required a lot of work on the score by Paul Banks, just as Mahler's 1889 Symphonic Poem took a lot of work to construct a performable score before New England Conservatory Philharmonia could play it in 2011. It was in that work Mahler began his use of Rott's music and those bits remained unchanged when revised into the Mahler 1st symphony we know today.
It must be recognised that Rott's symphony is a work in its own right and not just of interest in how Mahler recycled the music in his own symphonies, or the ideas (such as the ghost waltz in his 5th). Mahler hardly ever used a straight Rott quote. The clearest exception isn't from Rott's symphony at all but the core theme from his Suite in E which Mahler used for the Chorale right at the end of his first symphony (adding just 1 intro note) but Rott completely missed that this made for a great finish.
Mahler invariably enhanced what he quarried from Rott, so it was more than cut and paste or just tweaking or sprucing it up but it was developed, Mahlerised, into so much more. Mahler's approach was like genetic engineering, like cutting up and altering a string of DNA. Mahler messed with Rott's music in all kinds of ways, which make some of these quotes hard to spot in Mahler's symphonies. It can be a key change, alteration of a note, change in orchestration, running two tunes together – either with one of his own or even joining up two bits from different movements in Rott's symphony, then adding his own intro to it as a build-up and running it with another tune of his own at the same time, as in the three-fold climax builds in the opening movement of his third symphony.
When Mahler drew on Rott's symphony in and around the resurrection theme in his 2nd Symphony, fifth movement, it was completely out of context of Rott's biographical narrative, Mahler having an altogether bigger theme. Whereas Rott's biographical narrative is introspective and envisages his own end, Mahler's reaches out to all humanity and brings them to eternity. Also significant to Mahler's 2nd Symphony is analysis by James Zychowicz on Rott's third movement being the predecessor to Mahler using the same 'Ewig war ich' quote from Siegfried Act 3.
I'm aware Mahler wasn't attempting to improve on Beethoven's symphonies (except in the sense perhaps that a literalist with little sense of the history of orchestration might see any attempt to deviate from the written score as a dubious attempt to improve upon them, rather than an attempt to adapt them to the changes in the nature of instruments (modern oboes, bassoons, having different qualities in different ranges than those of the early 1800s, if I recall Forsyth right and if he was right, etc. ...) and, as you say, to concert halls. But I think you miss my point... I'll think about how to make it clearer.
Hrm. That's the second time I've seen a Mahler/Wagner direct (quote) connection that I remember exactly (of course I'm sure there are many, I'm just not aware of them offhand). The other was in a review by Martin Anderson (*waves*) in Fanfare in which he mentioned the relationship between two works, Mahler's Das Lied and Parsifal, both of which use briefly (but not all that briefly) the same music at the words "Der Lenz ist da!" (a observation Mr. Anderson attributed to Hans Gál, I think? - but regarded as probably an accidental quote inspired by Mahler's having conducted the opera and having heard it so often- which explanation I can well accept. Some relations, when one becomes very familiar with music, do saturate the mind...)
I think we can say that Mahler learned a lot from Rott. It is such a shame he died so young.
Tom
http://sdtom.wordpress.com/2013/10/24/symphony-in-f-majorrott/] (http://sdtom.wordpress.com/2013/10/24/symphony-in-f-majorrott/)
My take on the new Rott. Since the only other recording I've heard is the Samuel I found this new recording to be a breath of fresh air.
Tom :)
All in one review...
There are disturbing noises from the contrabassoon...
...the grumbly contrabassoon...
...the low growl from the contrabassoon...
I don't recall ever reading any review of anything, anywhere which mentioned the contra so many times. Whoever the contra player is in Mainz must sure play well, and loudly. Love it! I'm a contra player and it's nice that someone notices the sound.
So long as he's more pro-contrabassoon than the contrary, all's good.
Quote from: mbhaub on Thursday 24 October 2013, 22:08
All in one review...
There are disturbing noises from the contrabassoon...
...the grumbly contrabassoon...
...the low growl from the contrabassoon...
I don't recall ever reading any review of anything, anywhere which mentioned the contra so many times. Whoever the contra player is in Mainz must sure play well, and loudly. Love it! I'm a contra player and it's nice that someone notices the sound.
I think you'll enjoy the recording. I learned to love the contrabassoon through the music of Bernard Herrmann.
Tom
Quote from: mbhaub on Thursday 24 October 2013, 22:08
All in one review...
There are disturbing noises from the contrabassoon...
...the grumbly contrabassoon...
...the low growl from the contrabassoon...
I don't recall ever reading any review of anything, anywhere which mentioned the contra so many times. Whoever the contra player is in Mainz must sure play well, and loudly. Love it! I'm a contra player and it's nice that someone notices the sound.
I went back this afternoon and listened to the Samuel recording somewhat carefully and if I concentrated I could hear the contrabassoon but just barely. I'm still looking for a good price on the Jarvi. As of now I can say that I have 3 Rott recordings.
Tom
I have 6 versions of the Rott symphony (Segerstam, Weigle, Russell- Davies, Layer, Meister and Jarvi). I happened occasionally, in a 2nd hand store, on the Montpellier orchestra- Friedemann Layer version, and though it's hard to find, i think it's the best. Especially the last movement and the fugue in the middle of the movement is breathtaking, slow and grandiose. If you can find this recording, don't hesitate.
something to keep my eye open for.
Tom :)
The new Acousence recording arrived by post and it was certainly worth the wait and cost. It is a very fine performance. It's live, which is amazing - the work isn't standard repertoire, yet the orchestral execution is superbly accomplished - there's no sense of struggle or challenge. If there are any errors you won't know it. There are some balance issues, which is the fault of Rott as much as anyone. In the 2nd movement especially the brass overpower strings too often. And the contrabassoon! Whoever the player is really is good - beautiful, warm, rounded tone. Pitch very secure. And what's especially gratifying is a very, very long held note in the 3rd movement and all in one breath! Had to use circular breathing. Holding a low pitch on contra for more than 10 seconds is a real challenge - it goes on far longer here. The conducting is just fine - as good as anyone else. The whole team - orchestra, conductor, recording engineer, program annotator - should be congratulated. Excellent release.
Well, although I don't have this recording, I can hear from the substantial excerpts at the Acousence website that its besetting problem is the weakness of the orchestra's string section - in particular the violins. This would rule it out for me, whatever the other virtues of the performance. It's a familiar story with lesser ensembles, I'm afraid. For a far superior response, including a third movement that is truly 'fresh and lively' rather than lumbering and elephantine, I would look elsewhere. My choice - and I have heard Samuel, S. Weigle, Segerstam and P. Järvi - would be Järvi on RCA.
Quote from: sdtom on Thursday 24 October 2013, 20:36
http://sdtom.wordpress.com/2013/10/24/symphony-in-f-majorrott/] (http://sdtom.wordpress.com/2013/10/24/symphony-in-f-majorrott/)
My take on the new Rott.
Quote from: mbhaub on Thursday 31 October 2013, 21:33
The new Acousence recording arrived by post
Do the site rules for posting in 'New Recordings & Broadcasts' require even a decade-old CD to be called new?
Apologies - I hadn't noticed the release date.
Not your slip, Alan
The slip was mine Paul. In my defense I found it in the new Naxos October 2013 release guide. Perhaps Acousence is new to Naxos?
My other comment is I'm glad we agree on the fine contra bassoon playing.
Tom :)
Rott Symphony CD (Hansjörg Albrecht/Munich SO/OehmsClassics, possibly from Toblach) expected late 2014. coupled with 'lieder cycle' - possibly suggesting all 8 performable songs, which would mean 4 premieres.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Thursday 31 October 2013, 22:14
Well, although I don't have this recording, I can hear from the substantial excerpts at the Acousence website that its besetting problem is the weakness of the orchestra's string section - in particular the violins. This would rule it out for me, whatever the other virtues of the performance. It's a familiar story with lesser ensembles, I'm afraid. For a far superior response, including a third movement that is truly 'fresh and lively' rather than lumbering and elephantine, I would look elsewhere. My choice - and I have heard Samuel, S. Weigle, Segerstam and P. Järvi - would be Järvi on RCA.
Upon repeated listens I tend to agree with Alan. Perhaps I'll seek out the Jarvi.
Tom