I understand that music of the late classical period is not off-limits here; if I am mistaken, please feel free to lock this thread!
I am not that well familiar with lesser-known music of the classical era, but I have come across some remarkable, forward-looking unsung symphonies of the late classical era, including:
Antonio Cartellieri: Four symphonies (recorded by CPO). These works have everything one could ask for in a classical symphony: memorable melodies, sturm und drang, and vivacious energy.
Etienne Mehul: Four symphonies (recorded by Nimbus). Riveting, Beethovenian works which deserve to be much better known. Great orchestration, too!
Ferdinand Ries: Eight symphonies (recorded by CPO). As Ries was a student of Beethoven, the elder composer's influence is undeniable, but Ries adds his own touch with his brand of mellifluous lyricism.
Jan Vaclav Vorisek: Symphony in D (recorded by Hyperion). A vigorous work in approximation to late Mozart and early/mid-period Beethoven.
Juan Crisostomo Arriaga: Symphony in D (recorded by Hyperion). A beautiful, vivacious work which assimilates the influences of Mozart, Schubert, and Italian opera into a compellingly individual mix.
Anton Eberl: Symphony in E-flat, op. 33 (recorded by Teldec). An interesting precursor to Beethoven's Eroica, and not just because of the key.
Joseph Martin Kraus: Symphonie Funebre in C minor and some of his other later symphonies. Very imaginative music, with unexpected harmonic modulations and forward-looking orchestration. Kraus is often dubbed "The Swedish Mozart", but his music doesn't sound much like Mozart at all!
Niels Wilhelm Gade's 1st Symphony in C minor "Paa Sjølunds fagre Sletter" ("On Sjoland's Fair Plains") of 1842. Very much Beethovian and Mendelssohnian and perhaps more classical than Berward's First (1842).
I've never thought of Gade's First as late classical, but it very well could be! It's a stirring work, perhaps even the equal of Mendelssohn.
I'll add two large-scale, Beethovenian symphonies to the mix: Otto Nicolai's Second and Carl Czerny's Second (both in D major). Perhaps verging on early romantic, but both works have a sense of argument and architecture characteristic of the classical era.
Although all such categorisations are artificial, I certainly wouldn't describe Gade's rather magnificent First Symphony as "late classical". It's surely an early example of the romantic tradition established by Mendelssohn.
I would list in the late classical category the very masterful only Symphony by Luigi Cherubini.
It is fairly often recorded, but it appears underperformed in the concert halls. In decades of attending concerts, I heard it live just twice.
With well over twenty symphonies now mentioned, perhaps friends could choose one or two at most and tell us why they think they are remarkable.
There are some issues with the definition 'late-classical'. To my mind only symphonists such as Eberl, Kraus, Cartellieri and possibly Cherubini truly fit. As soon as the influences of Beethoven and Schubert make themselves felt, we are into a transitional style that moves on from late classicism to early romanticism - into this category come Méhul, Arriaga, Vorisek, Czerny and Ries. Nicolai's Symphony is a late example of this transitional style too. However, Gade 1 is fully romantic - Mendelssohn with a Nordic accent, as it were - so he doesn't fit here.
I wouldn't put Méhul in the "influenced by Beethoven" category, his first two symphonies (they are the only ones I have) come from the same year as Beethoven's 5th, but I don't think B's first four were too much a big deal to have inflluenced Méhul by that time, they only truly entered Paris' life with Habeneck much later (iirc). Méhul would be in the "influenced by Haydn"-team. I think they are wonderful and remarkable symphonies. Minkowski's recording of them is truly wonderful, imo.
May I also add Wilms and Schneider into the mix? I only heard one symphony from Schneider, the one recorded by CPO, and wish the others were also made public.
Hrm. Johann Christian Friedrich Schneider, 1786-1853 - (may have premiered the Beethoven Emperor concerto in 1811 (or given it its Leipzig premiere, I'm not quite sure what's meant)) . A piano quartet (pub.ca.1815), string quartet (pub.1832) and oratorio but not yet any of his 17+ symphonies uploaded to IMSLP, I see...
(RISM (http://opac.rism.info) mentions autograph material for Schneider symphonies - 27 sources worth - at Anhaltische Landesbücherei, Abteilung Sondersammlungen, Dessau; and 2 sources each at each of 2 other libraries.)
The autograph of no.17 is dated 1822, by the way (see RISM, again (http://opac.rism.info/search?documentid=230000211).) (1821 at the top, [18]22 on the individual movements. Other symphonies of his listed @ RISM are dated rather earlier (1805, e.g.) (I like that one is in B minor- never a ''popular'' key for symphonies, maybe because of that lack of open strings...))
Quote from: eschiss1 on Saturday 11 January 2014, 02:40
may have premiered the Beethoven Emperor concerto in 1811 (or given it its Leipzig premiere, I'm not quite sure what's meant)
From what I read, the latter. It seems he was responsible for introducing Beethoven's piano concertos to (north?) Germany.
Among unsung works of the late classical period, I have a fondness for Schubert's Symphony in E, D 729. An unsung work if ever there was one, yes? I haven't investigated myself, so I wonder if members can confirm (or deny) my impression that the musical content of this work is fully worked out in piano score, just not orchestrated in full score (perhaps due to a paucity of immediate performance prospects). There are passages in the last movement of this work that remind me of Berwald 20-odd years later.
There's a book "The Characteristic Symphony in the Age of Haydn and Beethoven" (Richard Will, Cambridge University Press, 2002*) (which distinguishes it from the Program-Symphony of later generations and has some things to say about works by Kraus and Paul Wranitzky among others.) I'm fascinated by unsung works and composers that were well-known and admired in their time and have only since been mostly forgotten (not only those composers and works, of course, but I am) and this book (which I've only skimmed, not read) seems very interesting especially as relates to this thread, I think. Also + Toeschi, Winter, others mentioned. Anyone have a copy?
*Perhaps based on his thesis, Programmatic symphonies of the classical period, 1994 for Cornell University. Now -that- one I might just jump on a bus and check assuming they let one do that (I don't see why not; it's mostly an open-stack library) (as I may have mentioned, I live in town...)
I think the symphonies of Friedrich Fesca could come into this category and would certainly include Spohr's 1st symphony, in which the influence of Mozart and Haydn is very much to the fore.
Ahem, gentlemen: in what way might the works mentioned so far be regarded as 'remarkable'? (Their mere existence doesn't count!!)
It does seem to me that the greatest blank spot in general musical knowledge of the average listener today is the concert environment in Beethoven's heyday. If you asked most people which composers Beethoven would have regarded as his contemporaries, you would pretty much draw a blank, which you would not if you asked the same question about Brahms or Grieg. As I think I said in another thread ...
In which respect (bad grammar, Eric, bad, bad!) there's what seems, from Google/Amazon preview, to be a really good (expensive, academic-y, but I maintain, good, from what I see of the contents) book by David Wyn Jones called The Symphony in Beethoven's Vienna... (my source for information on works like Czerny's D major symphony- well, it was until Botstein had to go and perform it (*now everyone knows about it! ;) mock-sigh... :) *) also a goodly substantial section on Krommer and his 8/9 numbered symphonies (there are also some unnumbered I think...), etc. (one is lost, but Wyn Jones knows enough about them to have something to say, if negatively in some cases) ... etc.
(Eberl, Reicha, Wranitzky, Wranitzky (Anton), etc. are also discussed at some length, I think; also Rosetti, Hoffmeister, and Vorisek...)
I gather Beethoven was a great admirer of Cherubini and Rossini.
In Cherubini's case, whatever Beethoven thought of the whole body of the man's work- I don't know...- he did very much (I gather) admire what may well (I am told) have been Cherubini's greatest work, his mass in C minor.
Harold C. Schonberg was of the opinion that Beethoven admired Cherubini's technique. He considered Cherubini's music extremely old-fashioned harmonically compared to Beethoven, saying that Cherubini's most daring harmony was the diminished 7th chord which was "already threadbare in his day".
Kudos to those who brought up the Cherubini, Fesca and Wilms symphonies. Wonderful works, all of them!
Could you give us some specifics, please?
Listening to Cherubini's Requiem , I can see where Beethoven got his avant garde choral style from in the finale of his 9th symphony.
No one has yet mentioned the two substantial symphonies of Portuguese classical composee João Domingos Bomtempo, which have been recorded by Naxos. The First is a delightful work in the vein of Hadyn, while the Second is more Beethovenian in its premonitions of Romanticism.
That may be because (a) no-one knows them, and/or (b) they ain't particularly remarkable...except for the fact that they're Portuguese. IMHO, of course.
I know both the Bomtempo Symphonies (the first also through a Koch recording) and IMHO I too would rank them as remarkable (even if not on a par with Vorisek or Arriaga or Cherubini).
Not so remarkable, then?
It's quite evident that Alberto agrees with me on the quality of the Bomtempo symphonies.....
OK, but I agree with him that they aren't on a par with works such as those by Arriaga, Vorisek or Cherubini.
....as do I!
Did anybody mention ETA Hoffmann's symphony in E flat (1806)?
An unremarkable work by a remarkable man.
I'd suggest a really joyous work, the Symphony No. 1 in C (1812) by Philipp Jakob Riotte (1776-1856):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwSl-El4NCM (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DwSl-El4NCM)
I am a little lost with this thread because I really don't understand what is meant by "late classical". The common practice is to give 1820 as the beginning of the romantic period, so I suppose that "late classical" would be music composed, say 1790-1820?
I'd say that was correct, Colin.
Thanks, Alan! That's clear enough. ;D
In that case, I'll say a word in favour of the neglected Symphony in D major by Bellini, written when he was a young man, per Grove (although I can't find an exact date). Maybe not especially "remarkable", but interestingly scored, and looking forward to the operatic style ... and half bad for a teenager!
Try these very attractive sounding symphonies by Theodor von Schacht (1748-1823) on a new cpo CD:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Theodor-von-Schacht-Symphonien-C-Dur-Es-Dur/hnum/4916783 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/Theodor-von-Schacht-Symphonien-C-Dur-Es-Dur/hnum/4916783)
I can confirm that the von Schacht CD is an absolutely superb release - very well played by the Taiwanese orchestra and stunningly well recorded, with clarity, sonority and impact in equal measure. The two major works here are the Haydn-influenced C major and E flat major symphonies which both run to getting on for half an hour. Unfortunately, the liner notes give no details of composition dates (I would guess somewhere between 1790 and the early 1800s), but these are very much late classical works - with some very arresting features indeed, such as the incorporation of the minor-key introduction to the first movement of the C major work into a passage later on in the same movement - a most dramatic and unexpected episode. Von Schacht is also clearly adept at devising surprising key sequences, so that the music is never boring. I'm no expert on the music of this period, but I'd say these were important discoveries - and they give the sense that Beethoven's sound-world is not all that far away.
Hi there. I'm new. I was browsing around the 'Net yesterday looking for information on the symphonies of Josef Netzer (recordings of which I have on order) and came across this forum; then, in running down the various current threads, I saw this one. A perfect fit with one of my major emphases in music! I note that, of all the works mentioned thus far in the thread, I own recordings of all but three. The exceptions: E.T.A.Hoffmann (have heard it, but don't own it, and don't think it's worth the exorbitant prices being asked for old copies these days); Anton Eberl (didn't even know these had been recorded, and I now see I've been overlooking a treasure trove by Concerto Köln which I ought to have snapped up aeons ago; why, it even includes the spectacular early Sturm-und-Drang g minor thing by Anton Fils, not "romantic" (late 1750s) but everybody ought to hear it!); and Theodor von Schacht (I know the composer from his clarinet concerti, and will order the symphonies as soon as the disc is released here in the 'States).
At any rate, glad to be here, will be poking around here and there, and in fact I think I'll go do a second post mentioning a few things I have that some of you might want to obtain for yourselves, representing to me some of the other "remarkable" late classical works I know.
Post No. 2 today: A few 'remarkable' (to me, in one way or another) additions to the lists already in place:
Joseph Wölfl: Symphonies in C and g minor, from 1803 and c.1808. (The latter dedicated to Cherubini :D) A rather odd composer to make the 'remarkable' lists because most of his other works known to me - and I have quite a few - are fundamentally pretty salon things, pleasant, fun for a while, but ultimately fairly empty. But these two symphonies - he wrote a third which only survives in piano score - are quite a change. Dramatic outbursts, very advanced use of winds, strong rhythmic drive, and really a fine sense of melody (which is what salon composers have to have even when they're not in the salon at the moment) - well worth knowing. Warning: The only recording is on the label Caro Mitis, which is Russian-made; maybe see about getting it now, in case there's an embargo because of the current Ukraine business? Disc also includes the Grand Duo for cello/piano, the only other Wölfl work I know of any serious power. (And as I said I have a few: Two SQs, 3 PCs, 17 piano sonatas, 3 piano trios, and 3 duos for harp/piano - some things have their moments, but not on the level above described.)
Friedrich Witt: Symphonies "Nos. 6 and 9" of 1808 and 1818. No. 6 is the "Turkish." From an MD&G disc conducted by Rosetti specialist Johannes Moesus. These incidentally are Nos. 6 and 9 of a run of 9 published later in Witt's career; he had written another 14 in the 1790s, of which one has its own level of fame - it's the sometime-named "Jena" symphony long ascribed as a juvenile work of Beethoven, until somebody noticed that the first three movements are nothing more than a crude rewriting of the parallel movements of Haydn's 97th, which Beethoven couldn't have seen until 1793, by which year he was far and away beyond any such travesties. (The finale, oddly enough, is a much better bird - and not repackaged from Papa Joe!) Later they found another manuscript that settled things. But the present "6&9" are in no way crude drivel; the Sixth with its Turkish battery is a little heavy on the noise and correspondingly light on the depth of construction, but it's still a worthy second-tier entrant. "No. 9" is much stronger; you'll hear immediately the hints of "Don Giovanni" and the Beethoven 9th - although Beethoven postdates Witt - but they are woven quickly into a highly original and well-structured minor gem which in sum actually dances between a late Sturm-und-Drang reminiscence and a precursor to the heart of romanticism (late Mendelssohn and bits of Schumann come to mind, maybe even the Brahms serenades for a phrase or two). Witt also has a nice sense of a well-made tune, which glaringly he did NOT have back in the days of that 'Jena' thing.
Bernhard Romberg: Three symphonies incl. a Funeral Sym. recorded on the label Ars as "Forgotten Treasures Vol. 5." The symphonies date from c.1811, c.1813 and "unknown" (pub. 1830 but thought to have been written much earlier). Romberg was a cello virtuoso and much respected as such all over the continent; his symphonic works would therefore seem to be quite secondary, but in fact there is a lot of very forward-looking writing especially in the E-Flat ("No.2") which has modulations and part-writing that are a generation ahead of their time. The Funeral Symphony is a stunning successor to, e.g., the more famous Kraus thing of 20 years earlier; and frankly I prefer Romberg first because he doesn't spend as much time plumbing maudlin depths, and in fact even injects some lighter moods (though hardly jollity!) into the finale; and second because it doesn't drag out as seemingly endlessly as Kraus's does overall.
Christian Westerhoff: Symphony in E-Flat from 1796, combined on a CPO disc with two concerti involving the clarinet. Okay, let me be honest here; the real brilliance of this recording is the clarinet concerto, with the double bassoon/clarinet work a close second. The symphony - apparently his only one - is several notches above merely competent, but it really is no revelatory parting of the clouds; call it very, very nice, and leave it at that. The disc is also by way of a memorial to the late Dieter Klöcker, whose musicological ferretings mostly on behalf of his instrument have turned up so very many gems; Westerhoff was apparently his final rediscovery before he died, and the soloist on this disc (Sebastian Manz) gives us a really moving tribute to Klöcker in the booklet.
Enough for a novice post-person for today; I apologize for the prattling, but I note the moderators keep whimpering for detail, so I thought maybe I'd sate their desires for a while. Go buy all those things I've recommended. You will not be unhappy. (Unless you're in this thread by mistake....)
Welcome, Friesner. Great posts!
... and thanks for all the detail. I shall moderate my whimpers for a while.
I remember a Woelfl cello/piano/percussion duo (the cellist was, as I recall, asked to play an ad lib percussion part- or may have decided to do so without it being in the score, actually?) that was fairly good and have enjoyed his music more or less but more rather than less (and from score also Witt), but that's my opinion. I think the symphonies you're referring to above according to Wikipedia would be his Opp.40 and 41. Anyhow, thanks!
Hrm. Hadn't seen this before. Woelfl Society (http://www.ijwg.org/).
Wölfl society - thanks. I peeked. My German is rather shaky, but I got some from it. Did you notice they claim 7 symphonies whereas the disc I suggested says just 3? Well, but in that era anything is possible; look how many they've added to (or subtracted from) Mozart over recent years. Best guess, we've heard all we're gonna hear from the Wölfl lists, no matter how many.
There are three composers whose Societies I try to follow with some regularity, even though I haven't spent the money to join - that's for wealthy patrons and/or scholars, seems to me - but it's nice to keep up with new releases, progress in dating or identifying, possibly useful books, etc. The three are Antonio Rosetti, Anton Bruckner and Paul Juon. I'm absolutely passionate about them all. (In Bruckner's case there are lots of societies; I try to follow the U.S. one, but it frequently quotes from the British one so I often get both in a sense.)
In a way I don't really need a Bruckner Society anyway. There are no undiscovered or unrecorded works that matter; only new versions or editions of the ones we've had all along. And there's a web site - all you Brucknerians know this already, yes? - that keeps up to date on every Bruckner recording ever made, every version, every reissue on a different label, etc., etc. - a phenomenal undertaking. He doesn't do the vocal works, just the orchestral; but, with a few exceptions, that's all I care about anyway.
Rosetti doesn't fit in this forum, so forget him. Juon really, really does, and while the International Juon Society doesn't seem to do much except print lists of concerts in Switzerland and south Germany, it's still useful in some ways. Last year they added a complete listing of all Juon's works that have been recorded, with recording data and (European) availability - very useful to the completist fanatic in me. Now, if only they could kick someone into action and get the violin concertos recorded at last. And the early symphonies?
Bruckner address: www.abruckner.com (http://www.abruckner.com)
Juon address: www.juon.org (http://www.juon.org)
And now, if you'll excuse me, I have a new CD in the mail today. Schmidt-Kowalski tone poems. Yum.
The Wolfl or Woelfl symphonies are amongst the few non piano works that I have heard, as I have a deep love for the composer and play his works often.
He might well be Beethoven without the stress and he might well be looking back to Clementi and not forward to the romantics, but I cannot cope with the "pretty salon things" comment.
I am going to start up the WDL (Wolfl Defence League). Anyone can join.
Thal
Friesner, you might try Google Chrome or Google translate or one of the other free translation programs to read other language websites. Mostly they work pretty well.
And welcome to the forum and thanks for your comments. I immediately went looking for the rest of the Wolfl symphonys that I didn't have.
Jerry
Thalbergmad: I think perhaps I might have done better rewording my "pretty salon" comment so as to convey that there's absolutely nothing 'wrong' without Beethoven's stress, or with music that doesn't necessarily look forward. I was merely trying to state clearly that, with his symphonies set beside his sonatas, we are really looking at two very different worlds. The symphonies, while classical in structure, show me clearly that Wölfl is looking at where the symphony is going in the future; his sonatas on the other hand are sitting smack in the center of the tastes of the time and perfectly at home staying there.
But in fairness, I am not a pianist, so have only the listener's perspective. Perhaps it also matters that the 7-disc set I have - and all that I've ever heard - is played (by Mme. Laure Colladant) on a fortepiano, not a modern instrument; authentic, yes, but also capable of only so much expression. Maybe on a later instrument different impressions would accrue. I do have experience with both period and modern performances of the Beethoven, Schubert and Weber bodies of work, and the experiences differ considerably depending on instrument. (But what does NOT differ between such performances is the sense that those men were moving music forward in exciting and - at the time - surprising ways. I do not hear this in the Wölfl sonatas, but I do in many places in those two symphonies.)
Had no idea she'd recorded quite that much Woelfl, by the way. I've heard one CD of his piano music by someone else (I think it was), and a couple of other things (maybe a bit of that cpo piano concerto disc too).
Eschiss - Colladant did indeed get quite carried away with Wölfl, and I see on amazon.co.uk that someone is asking £165 for the set now! But individual discs were also issued and some of those are affordable. These don't seem to have been issued in the US, at least I can't find any. I bought the box a couple of years ago from a seller in France, shipped via a friend in Wales.
The other single disc you mention might well have been one of three (I think) sonatas on the American label Genesis, originally an LP and reissued as a CD but long gone now. Pianist was Vladimir Pleshakov. I had the LP, but at the time wasn't impressed (= sophisticated) enough to care that much, so I never upgraded to the CD. I do recall that at about the same time Pleshakov recorded LPs of two other obscurities of about the same vintage, Bonifacio Asioli and J.W.Rust; those have been combined now into a single CD (missing a work or two from the originals) and that one can still be had from third-party sellers in the US. Not worth much trouble in my opinion; the two composers are a nudge better than competent, but that's as far as I'd go.
There's also a CD of some sonatas played by one Jon Nakamitsu, that's still in print but I've never heard it. I do know it's modern piano, as was Pleshakov.
Not wishing to assist in the offtopicness (which is punishable by 10 years hard labour), it was the Nakamitsu disk that got me hooked.
Thal
Just this once, Thal, just this once. >:(
Ah. Looking at the library catalog of the university where I heard it, it was indeed Colladant's CD of the 3 Wölfl Op.28 sonatas that I heard (ADDA 581036, recorded 1987, released 1988; I heard it around 1990, I think, judging from my visual memory of the room), not someone else's disc. (They also have his Op.33 but that CD is from 1995, after I left; also a disc of string quartets, other CDs also, and streamable electronic resources of others besides, also a 1969 LP, and a score of a violin sonata (from?) Op.28 (same work?) and another (divertissement no.2 Op.61)- and only about a dozen in all works of his, but not badly-chosen, it seems...)
I'm confused and not at home to compare recordings. There are lots of recordings of Arriaga Symphony. Some say in D minor and others say in D major. Did he write two symphonies or are a number of the CDs mislabeled??
Jerry
The Wikipedia entry on Arriaga tells us:
Arriaga composed a Symphony in D (Sinfonía a gran orquesta), which uses D major and D minor so equally that it is not in either key.
Ah so - so, they're both right. Or perhaps both wrong...... :-X
Thank you, sir.....
J
I've read on Facebook that the Vorisek symphony is being performed by the Borders Chamber Orchestra in their concert on 2nd November 2024, at Melrose Parish Church at 7 pm. Too far for me but someone who's a bit nearer may be interested.