What are the piano quintets to put on the list after Brahms Schumann and Dvorak?
I'd nominate Dohnanyi and Faure.
Wouldn't mind hearing the Rheinberger C Major Quintet Op. 114 again. And again.
Quote from: JimL on Tuesday 08 June 2010, 06:12
Wouldn't mind hearing the Rheinberger C Major Quintet Op. 114 again. And again.
The opening of that one does stick in my memory. (Of course the rest isn't half bad either ;) As does that of the earlier and once very, very popular piano quartet.)
I wouldn't personally place it third behind the Brahms and Schumann (Dvorak 2 goes way below, but that's personal preference speaking), but I would certainly recommend it highly.
I know this is not a forum for modern music, but Shostakovich's quintet and Bloch's 2 quintets are very important contributions to the repertoire (in every sense. Even if Bloch's 2nd has the same problem I find in Dvorak 2 - way, way too much piano doubling :) Still a great work.)
The piano quintet attracted the attention of quite a few composers during the 19th century (and afterwards). When it comes down to it I can't be objective about my own favorites I expect, which include works as variable in actual quality as the Medtner quintet (rather bombastic I'm sure, but carries me along in its cheer, its flow, and that hymn/march theme toward the end, among other qualities), the Raff, Farrenc's two, Bax's passionate beast of a quintet from 1915, Schmidt's very characteristic and lovely quintet for left hand in G (and, even lovelier - and sadder... - with clarinet, in A - I still don't know the one in B-flat), the two Faure and Dohnanyi works mentioned, for instance. (I'm getting to know Enescu's 1940-ish quintet, probably influenced by Faure somewhat. Not a top choice?, but a wonderful work all the same. Way down on the list, not because I don't like it but because it doesn't seem to be especially on the same plane of genius, is the B minor quintet of Pejacevic, but I'm only recently listening to that, and to Roy Harris' quintet, for instance.
Back when, Eric Brustin, on usenet, was compiling a list of piano quintet composers. I have no idea what became of it, but expect it became very long. The very good and important ones would be a truly small subset, but I've always felt it might contain some surprises from odd places on the list, of course. Sometime I'll have to see if I can get him to send me a copy...
Apologies for digressions.
Eric
Wow! Overload threatens. Any votes for W Berger?
Quote from: Glazier on Tuesday 08 June 2010, 05:13
What are the piano quintets to put on the list after Brahms Schumann and Dvorak?
I'd nominate Dohnanyi and Faure.
Firstly, Schubert's piano quintet rates enough to belong along side those of Brahms, Schumann, and Dvorak.
Secondly, Dvorak wrote 2 piano quintets: opus 5 and opus 81, both in A major. Of course opus 81 is much better that his youthful opus 5.
Here are some more piano quintets:
Dussek
Hummel x 2
Berwald x 2
Borodin
Plenty of good piano quintets to go around. My absolute unsung favourites, though, are:
- Berger in F Minor
- Florent Schmitt in B Minor
- Schäfer in D flat
- Medtner in C
- Korngold in E
The first 2 are of symphonic proportions, the 3rd is full of good tunes, the Medtner is a good introduction to the rest of his music as well (don't be scared off by the fact some people write it's one of his most inaccessible works!), and the Korngold is as fin-de-siècle you can get.
Quote from: Hofrat on Tuesday 08 June 2010, 13:04
Firstly, Schubert's piano quintet rates enough to belong along side those of Brahms, Schumann, and Dvorak.
Sorry, I really have to disagree here. The Schubert quintet is on a totally different level. If you're just talking about popular works for piano & strings, ok. But the Trout Quintet not only has the different instrumentation, but also the number of movements, and the completely unromantic atmosphere which may make it a very nice piece (although not Schubert's best), but hardly stuff for comparison with the Schumann, Brahms, and Dvorák pieces. I would rather put the Farrenc and Götz, and perhaps Boisdeffre, Labor, Percy, and Vaughan Williams quintets, which are all with double bass, up for comparison. Maybe the proto-romantic examples by Ries or Louis Ferdinand as well...
To get them out of the way, here some more 'double bass piano quintet divertimentos': Limmer, 2 by Cramer, and 2 by Onslow. Someone mentioned Hummel, he actually wrote 3 - that is to say: he wrote 1, and transcribed 2 other works for the form. Piano quintets in nothing but name...
Amy Beach and Arthur Foote. The Beach has a glorious slow movement, and I defy anyone not to love the last movement of the Foote, Dvorakian as it is...
David
The PQ by Wilhelm Berger is to my mind one of the greatest pieces of chamber music in any genre. The composer belongs to an in-between generation and his output contains a high number of masterpieces. The scale of the PQ is positively symphonic, which may put performers off trying it, but the level of inspiration fully justifies its length. The idiom is broadly post-Brahmsian, but not one that has 'gone to seed', as one finds in so much of Reger. It is more chromatic than Brahms, but not as tortured in its processes as in mature Reger. I am astonished that the performance on MDG has not been joined by other recordings.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Tuesday 08 June 2010, 14:49
The PQ by Wilhelm Berger is to my mind one of the greatest pieces of chamber music in any genre.
(...)
I am astonished that the performance on MDG has not been joined by other recordings.
As am I - this quintet ought to be one of the cornerstones of the repertoire. Every movement is highly addictive, and a live performance of the work would bring down the house! (is that still English?)
In any case, way more pleasurable to listen to than both of the Reger quintets, although they're not without their merits, either.
One of my favorites is the quintet by Kurt Atterberg which is an arrangement of his 6th symphony.
I ditto a vote for Faure's 2 lovely piano quintets, I am a big fan of all of his chamber music. Also Borodin's, whose chamber music I also adore.
Also in the French tradition there are very nice piano quintets by Vierne, Pierne and Widor.
Other notables I don't think have been mentioned yet:
Vaughan-Williams
Franck
Elgar
Saint-Saens
Martinu (x2)
Bartok
Ades
Bacewicz (x2)
Bliss
Biarent
Badings
Coleridge-Taylor
Chadwick
Dubois
Draeseke
Gouvy
Goetz
Goldmark (x2)
Leighton
Le Flem
Kiel (x2)
Reynaldo Hahn
Perosi (x3)
Novak
Martucci
Ries
Rontgen (x3, I am not sure the first has been recorded)
Raff
Pfitzner
Onslow (several)
Spohr
Sgambati (I only have a recording of the first, but he has more than one)
Sinding
Turina
Taneyev
Stanford
Thuille (x2)
Weinberg (Vainberg)
and while not everyone's cup of tea there is also one by Webern
(oops, I see Kriton has already mentioned the Vaughan Williams, Onslow and Ries)
John, that's some list! I am going to have a fun time expanding it... Hope I don't double up on your names!
Quote from: John Hudock on Tuesday 08 June 2010, 20:34
Also in the French tradition there are very nice piano quintets by Vierne, Pierne and Widor.
Widor wrote no less than 2, as did Cellier. Then there are 4 quintets by Boisdeffre. One quintet each by:
- Castillon
- Chevillard
- Cras
- Huré (got this one in the mail today!)
- D'Indy
- Lacroix
- Lalo
- Lefevbre
- Pfeiffer
- Ratez
- Sévérac
- Vermeire
- Wailly
Along with already mentioned (more famous) examples, that fairly completes the French side of the story. Of course, a lot of them haven't been recorded yet.
Let's pause here and return to the original question 'What are the piano quintets to put on the list...', I'm just thinking it probably doesn't really make sense just to throw out names, without some kind of commentary - something I can accuse myself of right now, as well. Might be rather personal, but the quintets from your list I would absolutely NOT recommend are:
- Ades (boring)
- Bacewicz (downright horrible)
- Martinu (perhaps only if you like Martinu's music generally - a far cry from Schumann and Brahms, though)
The Badings, Leighton, Perosi, Turina, and Vainberg quintets I don't know yet - can you tell me anything recommendable about them? I have yet to start liking their music, but perhaps their piano quintets are a good place to start?
The Webern quintet, on the other hand, a youthful essay in romanticism, I can really recommend to any fan of late romanticism.
I'll stand up for the Bacewicz - the first is sort of Bartok-ish, the second in her later more modernist style (if memory serves). But they aren't for people for whom music stops at Debussy :)
In answer to Glazier's initial question: Schubert (of course), but IMHO most certainly Raff and Berger.
Quote from: eschiss1 on Tuesday 08 June 2010, 22:10
I'll stand up for the Bacewicz - the first is sort of Bartok-ish (...)
It is indeed Bartók-ish - just not like his piano quintet ;)
Ther seem to be at least four categories here:
1 Great works by the great composers
2 Unsung works by great composers
3 Unsung works by unsung composers
4 Unsung works of no value
Exactly how a work gets from one category to the other is not clear. Does recording count as progress from category 4 to 3?
Is it possible to be relegated?
I've only heard Weinberg's early piano quintet a few times (a couple of times in the commercial recording with a Borodin Quartet and Weinberg at the piano, and once too in a more recent performance from a chamber music festival in Ireland broadcast over BBC Radio 3 a few years back. His style in general is often described as close to Shostakovich (his friend) (a description of his style I find to be superficial anyway :) ) - I don't recall if that was so true of the quintet (which he did write after meeting Shostakovich, I believe, but only soon after?...). Seem to recall the piece itself being mostly on the quiet side except maybe for its scherzo; in F minor; lyrical; and rating a recommendation.
(You might like Weinberg's cello&piano sonatas possibly- haven't heard the performances on several recently released CDs, the recording I have is on Russian Disc, but the first sonata is also early- op.21 as against the quintet's op18 - while the 2nd sonata is from later in his career. Also good works imhonesto. To my mind his style does have something of Prokofiev _and_ Shostakovich in it, here and there, as well as others...)
Eric
So how are we defining 'Piano Quartet'? If it means "piano + string quartet" then Schubert doesn't even count since he uses a double bass instead of a second violin.
If it's "piano + four instruments" that opens another can of worms beyond just the Trout, including the piano and wind quintets of Mozart, Beethoven, and (my fav) Rimsky-Korsakov. (Actually, I don't like the other two much, for some reason, no matter what others think...).
Also, just for clarity's sake, isn't the Korngold for left-handed piano?
Quote from: TerraEpon on Wednesday 09 June 2010, 06:48
So how are we defining 'Piano Quartet'? If it means "piano + string quartet" then Schubert doesn't even count since he uses a double bass instead of a second violin.
If it's "piano + four instruments" that opens another can of worms beyond just the Trout, including the piano and wind quintets of Mozart, Beethoven, and (my fav) Rimsky-Korsakov. (Actually, I don't like the other two much, for some reason, no matter what others think...).
Also, just for clarity's sake, isn't the Korngold for left-handed piano?
Korngold's suite op. 23 is for left-hand piano and trio- but that's a quartet, I think we're talking about quintets here (like Korngold's quintet op. 15, which I believe is not for left-hand piano.)
Franz Schmidt's piano quintet in G _is_ for left-hand piano, though only one or two recordings use that original version (most use Wuhrer's arrangements for both hands, likewise I believe recordings of his two quintets for piano, clarinet and string trio. There are a few of all three works though maybe less than 10 of each :) )
Eric
Hey, do you want me to take my cricket/baseball bat home?
This thread is strictly p with v v va vc.
All Trout quintet combo people, please go and start your own thread!
After Brahms and Dvorak .......... (for me) the Reynaldo Hahn Piano Quintet!!!
And I am rather fond of Henry Hadley's Quintet op 50.
I make a strong case for Rubinstein's Quintet for piano and wind instruments in F, op. 55.
Oops... sorry, Glazier.
Quote from: Peter1953 on Wednesday 09 June 2010, 15:36
I make a strong case for Rubinstein's Quintet for piano and wind instruments in F, op. 55.
Oops... sorry, Glazier.
How about his piano quintet in G minor op. 99, though?
Quote from: Glazier on Wednesday 09 June 2010, 08:55
Hey, do you want me to take my cricket/baseball bat home?
This thread is strictly p with v v va vc.
All Trout quintet combo people, please go and start your own thread!
Indeed, I think there already
is a thread for the quintets by (among others) Schubert, Goetz, Hummel, Onslow (I think), Farrenc...
Quote from: Glazier on Wednesday 09 June 2010, 03:20
Ther seem to be at least four categories here:
1 Great works by the great composers
2 Unsung works by great composers
3 Unsung works by unsung composers
4 Unsung works of no value
Exactly how a work gets from one category to the other is not clear. Does recording count as progress from category 4 to 3?
Is it possible to be relegated?
A very interesting question. A very philosophical one, as well. Is a work of art only a work of art, if there are people around to appreciate it? Or, in this case, if
it is 'around' people? And then we didn't even start defining a work of art...
A recording (or a free score from the Petrucci music library, for that matter) may make people finally evaluate some otherwise completely unknown music. If the piece is held in high esteem after that, and manages to stay that way for a long time, is another matter entirely. Of course, a lot of beautiful works are being dug out of the treasure trove of music history, nowadays, but not all of them will be remembered in a decade or 2, or perhaps not even in a few years. I reckon I own plenty of works on CD that won't have a long live beyond their only recordings.
Relegation is, of course, possible. A case in point are Schubert's piano trio's: until the 20th century, it was the 1st that was played and enjoyed over the 2nd. This has changed over the last decades, with his 2nd trio being recognised as the masterpiece.
BUT, since classical music assumed a totally different role in our society since the advent of popular music, it is very hard to imagine the 'canon' will change. For that, we may need another cultural (or even technological?) revolution.
Raff, for instance, has finally been recognised as one of the masters of the 19th century. Still, most people I know who regularly listen to and enjoy classical music haven't heard of him yet. It might say something about my acquaintances, but it really is hard for a composer, dead or otherwise, to enter the canon, nowadays. In this respect, I'm regularly asking myself how many people will be listening to Glass or Pärt, in a few decades. The Raff piano quintet, to stay on the subject, for instance, has been recorded. I've never encountered it in a chamber concert programme. A beautiful work it may very well be, but does this one (or are there 2?) recording elevate the work to your 1st category? That remains to be seen...
I digressed hugely, apologies.
Great topic, great responses. I was going to third the Berger quintet but see that Alan has already done so, most eloquently. I'll fourth it.
On a slightly less exalted but still elevated plane, I would nominate Foote's opus 38 (1897). Sound samples here:
http://www.amazon.com/Arthur-Foote-Chamber-Music-Vol/dp/B00000DHTD/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1276117357&sr=1-1 [Apologies to edurban, whose earlier mention of this work I missed.]
Quote from: Glazier on Wednesday 09 June 2010, 08:55
This thread is strictly p with v v va vc.
Ah, well - that seems to let me in, sort of, then - although the river Monnow not far from my present temporary abode is as famous for its trout as the nearby Wye is for its salmon...
QuoteThe Badings, Leighton, Perosi, Turina, and Vainberg quintets I don't know yet - can you tell me anything recommendable about them? I have yet to start liking their music, but perhaps their piano quintets are a good place to start?
The Turina is quite lovely, full of romantic charm. I am very fond of all of Perosi's chamber music, although there is mixed opinion of it (and all of Perosi's music) by other members. I think the Leighton is quite good and undeservedly unknown. It reminds me of Shostakovich, with very angular piano and string writing. The Vainberg is also reminiscent of Shostakovich.
I haven't listened to the Badings quintet yet, but it did win him an award. Badings music is frequently dark toned and at times quite experimental, so it is not everyone's cup of tea.
Also, a quintet I failed to include and which no one else has yet either is the wonderful Arensky quintet. Beautiful melodies and forward drive, a beautiful slow movement with some lovely writing for the cello. Similar in many ways to his much more famous trio #1.
Quote from: John Hudock on Thursday 10 June 2010, 13:29
(...) Arensky quintet. Beautiful melodies and forward drive (...)
Indeed, a beautiful piece!
For me, when it comes to 'forward drive', there's nothing more successful than the Zarebski piano quintet - a real thunderstorm, and again one of those works of which its lack of popularity is beyond understanding...
I'll have to look for the Zarebski quintet. I'm only familiar with some of his piano music.
Quote from: John Hudock on Thursday 10 June 2010, 15:29
I'll have to look for the Zarebski quintet. I'm only familiar with some of his piano music.
It was on BBC 3 Through the Night as recently as April 1 2010 (according to a quick Google search...), and I've heard it before. I expect it'll be on again :) It's worth hearing, in my opinion- good melody, good form, etc, quite enjoyable. (They still webcast, I think- I haven't checked very recently!)
No one to bring up the Elgar quintet? (Not a favorite of mine, unfortunately- I much prefer the string quartet from the same time, and the cello concerto, for instance. Haven't really gotten into Frank Bridge's early piano quintet with which Elgar's quintet is coupled on one CD, either, though some other early Bridge works and many others of his middle and late works appeal to me personally very much. Ah well. I'm sure others enjoy it for good reasons - of course.)
Ah. I forgot a few :)
Piston's quintet did belong in the too-long list in my early post- for whatever reason its first movement seems "French" and almost Faure-like, though the finale is typical Piston. (Or so it seems to me. In any case, it's a fine work :) ) I'm _told_ one or both of Ross Lee Finney's piano quintets are excellent but I haven't heard them.
Throwing caution to the winds there's Sorabji, whose first quintet has been published and performed once (but whose second quintet is rather lengthy - though it does exist, unlike some others of his works, in a performing typeset edition (http://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/compositions/piece.php?pieceid=54 (http://www.sorabji-archive.co.uk/compositions/piece.php?pieceid=54)).
Eric
Eric
Does anyone know this one?
Music in London 1890-94G B Shaw 3 vols Constable 1932 vol 3 p 156
21 Feb 1894
...Mr Gomperz, who unearthed a very good quintet in A minor by Professor Villiers Stanford, which for some reason had not been performed in public before in London. It is a genuine piece of absolute music, alive with feeling from beginning to end.
Quote from: Glazier on Friday 11 June 2010, 02:26
Does anyone know this one?
Music in London 1890-94G B Shaw 3 vols Constable 1932 vol 3 p 156
21 Feb 1894
...Mr Gomperz, who unearthed a very good quintet in A minor by Professor Villiers Stanford, which for some reason had not been performed in public before in London. It is a genuine piece of absolute music, alive with feeling from beginning to end.
Stanford's piano quintet in D minor, op. 25 is from 1886. See http://www.editionsilvertrust.com/stanford-piano-quintet.htm (http://www.editionsilvertrust.com/stanford-piano-quintet.htm). It could be a typo?
Eric
... I don't think anyone's mentioned the wonderful Sergei Taneev piano quintet in G minor yet. If not, let me do so...
Eric
Back in the day I put the Beach Quintet on the turntable and as its ravishing opening unfolded my college roommate perked up his ears, investigated the jacket and, seeing Mrs. H.H.A. ("Ha Ha") Beach's name, exclaimed, "Wow, I didn't know she was a REAL composer."
Don't know if anyone has previously mentioned the early Dochnanyi piano quintet, but in my book it's one of the most impressive opus 1s ever.
Does the Cesar Franck PQ have any friends these days? After the big three I first mentioned, where I live the classical FM station has only played the Doh and the Franck in the last year or so.
After a week of frantic debate, the following get into the hit parade:
Premier league
Brahms
Schumann
Dvorak
1st division
Elgar
Franck
Dohnanyi
2nd division: unsungs with may passionate fans
Berger
Raff
Reinecke
Kiel
Webern
Alttenberg
Hahn
Korngold
Rubinstein
Zarebski
3rd Divison: immense development potential
Florent Schmitt
Schäfer
Medtner
Of course, a very long list is available with a search in IMSLP, BL, Hollander's catalogue, Merton or Klassika. All the more reason to get some personal recommendations from the recording-literate public.
Looking forward to the next wave of ideas.
I heartily agree with all the positive comments concerning Amy Beach's Op67 - this same work I have have used time and again to introduce the unsuspecting to the wonders and enjoyment of chamber music - with overwhelming success!
Of recorded works not yet mentioned I would have to immediately stake a claim for two of my favorites - Philipp Scharwenka's Op118: one of his late works and IMHO a (minor?) masterpiece perhaps (try the slow movement!) & Catoire's Op28, which I hope may be familiar to some - typically dense in texture but wonderfully appealing.
Now to those yet awaiting rediscovery/ recording. Firstly, for the pianophiles amongst us, I must make mention of Pixis Op99, (dedicated to Thalberg! - and yes, it DOES include the doublebass!) This must surely be contemporary with his eagerly awaited Op100 Concerto and certainly has a piano part almost worthy of a concerto! (I will be more than pleased to provide copies of all parts for any recording project here!). I have also been looking at Davidoff's G minor Quintet Op40 - although described in Cobbett as representative of the German Romantic School, I consider the Russian influence quite obvious - perhaps even Russian Brahms in places? Moving on, Arthur Hinton's G minor Quintet Op30, which was published in 1913, certainly SHOULD be recorded - perhaps with other chamber works of his, this could be an ideal recording debut for this completely forgotten composer, without the financial commitment of an orchestral recording -hopefully the symphonies & piano concerto etc could follow on later...........
Finally, I note with interest the release of Josef Nowakowski's Op17 Quintet (another with doublebass!) on the Camerata label - I am still awaiting my copy.........
If you are not familiar with it and want to get some idea of what it sounds like, you'll find my midi rendition of Raff's masterly Piano Quintet in A minor, Op 107 at Mark's equally masterly Raff Society web site by going to www.raff.org . Choose home/resources/ midi files/ vocal & chamber.
Cheers,
John.
Quote from: Glazier on Friday 11 June 2010, 11:10
After a week of frantic debate, (...)
LOL!
Quote from: Glazier on Friday 11 June 2010, 11:10
Looking forward to the next wave of ideas.
OK, I already listed the French - please, do not forget to put both Fauré piano quintets somewhere on your list! - so I'll continue with the southerners:
- Granados: small, but effective.
- Martucci: rarely played, sadly - I hope there'll be a new recording on Naxos, soon. Beautiful work which gets better with every listen.
- Respighi: cute, little quintet modelled on the Brahms piece. Or better: distilled from the Brahms quintet.
- Sgambati: both his quintets are real discoveries. The tunes are not as catchy as in his piano concerto, but anyone who likes the Brahms and Dvorák quintets will like those, too.
- Wolf-Ferrari: my absolute favourite of this list. Such an unassuming, innocent, beautiful work, with a finale that'll have you rolling over the floor laughing!
D'Azevedo, Caetani & Guevós-Mira apparently wrote piano quintets as well, I now as much about those works as about there composers: nothing. I hope someone may be able to shed some light? Anyway, I think that covers the south of Europe, and I want to recommend at least the Martucci and the Wolf-Ferrari quintets for some kind of short list of yours, Glazier.
Further to my post of yesterday, I must also make mention of Thomas Dunhill's Piano Quintet in C minor Op20. As far as I am aware, this remains unpublished - together with more of his works on a larger scale, and, although I stand to be corrected as I have not yet checked, the mss are held by the Royal College of Music.
There was a plan to produce a printed edition, and an article in support of this was published in the British Music Journal of 1996 together with a reproduction of the first page. However it would seem that this project was never completed, which if true, is a shame as this would have made what appears to be a most interesting work readily available for performance and recording. The first few bars of the first movement have certainly created a desire to hear this work and I do not think we would be disappointed on the strength of Dunhill's other recorded chamber music!
Quote from: Kriton on Friday 11 June 2010, 16:02
Anyway, I think that covers the south of Europe, and I want to recommend at least the Martucci and the Wolf-Ferrari quintets for some kind of short list of yours, Glazier.
I would not close the issue of southern European piano quintets without mentioning two very distinguished works by little-known Italian composers which luckily have been recorded on CD. I find them as good as those by Martucci, Sgambati and Wolf-Ferrari.
One is the piano quintet by Alfonso Rendano (1853-1931), a pianist pupil of Thalberg. His quintet is beautifully romantic with a most expressive theme leading the first movement after an introductory Largo, and a charming Serenade, in the form of a Bachian aria, as a second movement. I think there have been at least two commercial recordings of this work (on the Ermitage and Aura labels).
Then there is this most extraordinary piano quintet by Guido Alberto Fano (1875-1961), a student of Martucci. His piano quintet is of symphonic proportions (almost 40 minutes) and is written in an attractive late romantic idiom. Most uncommonly this work includes an additional trumpet (!!) in the last movement (don't panic, Glazier! The trumpet part is optional and, therefore, this is still a
bona fide piano quintet). The trumpet is used muted and sparely (mainly to highlight and reinforce the chorale theme that dominates the final movement). As far as I know, the only recording of this work (which includes the trumpet) has been issued by the label Phoenix Classics with no less than Aldo Ciccolini at the demanding piano part.
Another late romantic piano quintet by Vito Frazzi (1888-1975) is also available on CD. Although a pleasant piece is not of the same stature of the two mentioned above.
Besides, if Croatia qualifies as Southern European, I would surely include the piano quintet by Dora Pejacevic (1885-1922) as an outstanding exponent of the genre, which is also available on CD.
As for the original question, I think that, after Brahms, Schumann and Dvorak, the piano quintets by Elgar and Franck are the runner-ups, closely followed by Taneyev, Fauré, Dohnanyi (both of them), Berwald (specially the first), Medtner, Hahn, Bridge ...
Among the romantic piano quintets that still have not been mentioned and appear worthy to me, I would like to nominate the Fibich (although originally including clarinet and horn there is also a version by the composer for regular piano and string quintet which has been recorded), the Heise in F major, and the charming early essay by Sibelius in G minor. Although I am not specially fond of the music of Arnold Bax, I admit having a weakness for his piano quintet (also in G minor), specially for the second movement (lento serioso) displaying a splendidly melodic theme (of clear Irish inspiration) couched in impressionistic harmonies and instrumental effects.
I was just doing a little research on Bruch last night and found there is a Piano Quintet in G Minor from 1886 listed among his WoO. It may be unpublished. Now THAT would be a find!
Quote from: JimL on Saturday 12 June 2010, 16:03
I was just doing a little research on Bruch last night and found there is a Piano Quintet in G Minor from 1886 listed among his WoO. It may be unpublished. Now THAT would be a find!
I have the recording of this work on CPO. It's a very charming work with some pretty good tunes, but not the find of the century. Bruch reportedly hated the piano, and the piano part in the quintet is rather modest and, dare I say, ineffective. But one could say, that goes for the entire composition. Expect no Sturm und Drang here, but a very charming, unassuming quintet that could have been written back in the 1830ies as well...
Quote from: gentile on Saturday 12 June 2010, 14:08
(...) the piano quintet by Alfonso Rendano (1853-1931) (...)
(...) this most extraordinary piano quintet by Guido Alberto Fano (1875-1961) (...)
(...) late romantic piano quintet by Vito Frazzi (1888-1975) (...)
Thank you very much, I will try and find recordings of those works!
Thanks for the lowdown on the Bruch PQui. For someone who supposedly hated the piano as much as Bruch, it seems odd that he would compose both a suite and concerto for two!
Quote from: JimL on Saturday 12 June 2010, 17:52
Thanks for the lowdown on the Bruch PQui. For someone who supposedly hated the piano as much as Bruch, it seems odd that he would compose both a suite and concerto for two!
If I remember correctly, the concerto for 2 pianos is a transcription of the suite for organ & orchestra. And the piano also takes part in his 8 pieces with viola & clarinet. In all, not very much, no...
Thanks, gentile, for the pointer to Fano's PQ. The recording on Phoenix seems to be deleted, although one or two used copies are available at high-ish prices at Amazon. There is an interesting article on the work here...
http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/fano/quintet.php (http://www.classical.net/music/comp.lst/works/fano/quintet.php)
An interesting article, indeed. Thanks!
How about the Quintet by Sigurd von Koch?
It is rather surprising that nobody has mentioned yet the wonderful Piano Quintet op 35 by Gernsheim!
Quote from: Black on Monday 14 June 2010, 09:03
It is rather surprising that nobody has mentioned yet the wonderful Piano Quintet op 35 by Gernsheim!
I haven't heard either of his quintets yet (a lack I hope to remedy), but why the first quintet and not his second? :)
Both are superb. Why not No.2 indeed?
I can imagine No. 2 is also an attractive composition, like everything I know form Gernsheim. It is simply because I do have a recording of 1st Piano Quintet and I never heard his 2nd.
I do recommend the Toccata CD of both Gernsheim PQs.
Hans Huber wrote a lovely Piano Quintet for 2 violins, viola, cello and piano in G minor, op. 111 (1896). It's a beautiful, Romantic piece, full of lyrical moments, with a heavenly beautiful slow movement, wholly in the tradition of composers like Gernsheim, Von Herzogenberg and Reinecke, just to name a few. We all know who has inspired those composers.
It's coupled with Huber's Piano Quartet in E Major, op. 117 (MGB label). Strongly recommended!
Quote from: Peter1953 on Sunday 20 June 2010, 06:27
Hans Huber wrote a lovely Piano Quintet for 2 violins, viola, cello and piano in G minor, op. 111 (1896). It's a beautiful, Romantic piece, full of lyrical moments, with a heavenly beautiful slow movement, wholly in the tradition of composers like Gernsheim, Von Herzogenberg and Reinecke, just to name a few. We all know who has inspired those composers.
It's coupled with Huber's Piano Quartet in E Major, op. 117 (MGB label). Strongly recommended!
There are btw two Huber quintets, but I don't know if the G major quintet ("Divertimento", op. 125, pub. ca 1907?) is recorded yet.
There was btw an earlier LP recording of the "Waldlieder" 1st piano quartet (with Hans-Heinz Schneeberger playing violin) that I recall hearing. Well-played... (but not in the territory of this thread.)
(I forget. Has anyone mentioned Vierne's C minor piano quintet op. 42? Not sure if I can quite tell now! There's a fine quintet, a memorial to his son killed in WWI...)
I'm somewhat surprised here that the Raff quintet doesn't get a bit more attention. Of all the man's works, it's perhaps the most unconditionally rewarding one. At least it's the one I enjoy most.
I have just spent several years researching piano quintets and know of but haven't heard, over 650 of them. Several are lost including an early one by Bartok.
Giles Enders
Quote from: giles.enders on Monday 21 June 2010, 12:15
I have just spent several years researching piano quintets and know of but haven't heard, over 650 of them. Several are lost including an early one by Bartok.
Giles Enders
Earlier than the one that is known? That is interesting...
I have in fact read that there were no less than 2 early piano quintets by Bartók considered lost. And then Berg is supposed to have written one full blown romantic quintet, before he turned atonal. Lost as well. The piano quartets / quintets by Mahler? Lost...
There is the early Quintet by Mahler which is a one movement work, and now I hear of one by Pieter van Anrooy, thanks to Ilja. They just keep cropping up...
Quote from: JimL on Monday 21 June 2010, 23:31
There is the early Quintet by Mahler which is a one movement work (...)
I only know of an early movement for piano quartet which has survived, plus a piece of a scherzo, which probably doesn't belong to the same work. Also, I've seen a concert announcement from the late 19th century with a piano quintet by Mahler. There's supposed to be a violin sonata as well. In any case, they're probably not 'one movement' works, knowing Mahler...
Someone mentioned Zarebski, that quntet is deffinatly worth a listen. Recently I bought the two by Gernsheim and think they are worth hearing.
Giles Enders
Thanks for you contributions.
Through the good offices of a CD collecting colleague, I have had a chance to hear the Arthur Foote, and Taneyev and Borodin PQs.
The Taneyev is a stunner! Can't wait to hear other Russians of that time, esp Arensky.
The Edition Silvertrust pages list some piano quintets I hadn't thought of - Gouvy's, for instance - and reminded me of Goldmark's 2 quintets too, and of Andree's. I haven't yet heard them, but expect good things especially of Goldmark. (I haven't even heard Saint-Saens' early quintet yet, and I asked about it on rec.music.classical, I think, years back, when there several fewer recordings of it *g*. Well, soon.) I agree about the Taneyev; my favorite work of his, and that's not meant to damn with faint praise...
Rubinstein's piano and strings quintet (the G minor) has come in for criticism, I think, and I haven't heard it, but I imagine it's at least enjoyable in a good performance? I can't say for sure, of course. Besides that (and Alyabyev's of course?) I think you have the 19th-c Russians covered... I think.
Eric
Quote from: Glazier on Wednesday 23 June 2010, 03:46
The Taneyev is a stunner! Can't wait to hear other Russians of that time, esp Arensky.
Although you probably won't get disappointed, IMHO the Russian piano quintets don't get any better than the Taneyev...
Except, of course, for the beautiful Medtner quintet. Which, with its references to orthodox chant, is probably a lot more Russian than the Brahmsian Taneyev piece. Come to think of it, the Taneyev quintet doesn't sound Russian at all, to me...
Quote from: eschiss1 on Wednesday 23 June 2010, 04:08
Rubinstein's piano and strings quintet (the G minor) has come in for criticism, I think, and I haven't heard it, but I imagine it's at least enjoyable in a good performance? I can't say for sure, of course. Besides that (and Alyabyev's of course?) I think you have the 19th-c Russians covered... I think.
Eric
My turn to say 'not quite'; there are supposed to be piano quintets by
- Davidov (our cello concerto composer) and
- Gödicke (from the Konzertstück for piano & orchestra on Hyperion's Glazunov disc)
as well. I still haven't found recordings of those. And then there's the Catoire quintet on Aliud or Brilliant (same recording).
Being totally in love with Kapustin piano works, I can't wait to get my hands on his (huge?) piano quintet on Exton. But that's probably beyond the scope of this forum (neither 19th century nor very romantic)...
I don't know the Alyabyev quintet - how is it?
Quote from: Kriton on Wednesday 23 June 2010, 05:35
Quote from: eschiss1 on Wednesday 23 June 2010, 04:08
Rubinstein's piano and strings quintet (the G minor) has come in for criticism, I think, and I haven't heard it, but I imagine it's at least enjoyable in a good performance? I can't say for sure, of course. Besides that (and Alyabyev's of course?) I think you have the 19th-c Russians covered... I think.
Eric
My turn to say 'not quite'; there are supposed to be piano quintets by
- Davidov (our cello concerto composer) and
- Gödicke (from the Konzertstück for piano & orchestra on Hyperion's Glazunov disc)
as well. I still haven't found recordings of those. And then there's the Catoire quintet on Aliud or Brilliant (same recording).
Being totally in love with Kapustin piano works, I can't wait to get my hands on his (huge?) piano quintet on Exton. But that's probably beyond the scope of this forum (neither 19th century nor very romantic)...
I don't know the Alyabyev quintet - how is it?
The Catoire is from 1914, so I emphasized 19th-century :) I suspect the Goedicke quintet is 20th-century too, but am not sure - will have to check.
(Alyabyev's quintet- is from 1818, is in E-flat, but I haven't yet heard it. I know of no earlier Russian piano quintets offhand. For some information on this composer see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Alyabyev (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Alyabyev) but preferably see the article in the German Wikipedia and do some translation, I fear. The article in English is not at all extensive. There's a sound sample or two of the quintet at
http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=43:66044 (http://allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&sql=43:66044)
from a CD of music played by Emil Gilels.)
Davidov's music I still haven't heard but would interest me, the quintet included. IMSLP does indeed have a piano quintet by him in score... (op. 40, 1884 in G minor.) -- http://imslp.org/wiki/Piano_Quintet,_Op.40_%28Davydov,_Karl%29 (http://imslp.org/wiki/Piano_Quintet,_Op.40_%28Davydov,_Karl%29)
Eric
Quote from: eschiss1 on Wednesday 23 June 2010, 04:08
Rubinstein's piano and strings quintet (the G minor) has come in for criticism, I think, and I haven't heard it, but I imagine it's at least enjoyable in a good performance? I can't say for sure, of course. Eric
Rubinstein's PQ in G minor, op. 99, is to me a most wonderful, Romantic, nearly 50 minutes lasting piece of chamber music, full of memorable, lyrical and subtle themes. The beautifully crafted work has great depth as well. It is definitely not just a showpiece for the piano, on the contrary, the dialogues between the instruments are fully in balance. Maybe I'm somewhat prejudiced, because Rubinstein is my favourite unsung composer. However, this PQ proves once more what a great master Rubinstein was.
I have the PQ coupled with Shostakovich's PQ in G minor, op. 57, by the Pihtipudas Kvintetti on the Eda label (1996). I think this is the only commercial recording available. Warmly recommended!
Quote from: eschiss1 on Wednesday 23 June 2010, 05:57
The Catoire is from 1914, so I emphasized 19th-century :)
You said '19th century Russians', not '19th century piano quintets'... :)
Anyway, thanks for the Alyabyev update!
Quote from: Kriton on Wednesday 23 June 2010, 06:07
Quote from: eschiss1 on Wednesday 23 June 2010, 05:57
The Catoire is from 1914, so I emphasized 19th-century :)
You said '19th century Russians', not '19th century piano quintets'... :)
Anyway, thanks for the Alyabyev update!
Point! :)
Re the two Gernsheim piano quintets, just noticed that a Musikproduktion Höflich preface to the two of them is available online here - http://www.musikmph.de/musical_scores/vorworte/1016.html (http://www.musikmph.de/musical_scores/vorworte/1016.html) (in German and English). May be of interest...
Eric
I've just re-listened to the two Thuille quintets and I must say they are absolutely exquisite works. The G Minor is a student work, but still quite lovely, but the E flat Major quintet is superb. Great drive, beautiful melodies throughout and incredibly lush. Both are available in recordings with Oliver Triendl and the Vogler Quartet on CPO. There are other recordings on ASV and Naxos, but I don't have copies of them (although I was impressed enough with the CPO recording that I am now intrigued to hear the other perfomances). There is also a recording on a label called Champs Hill which includes a Piano Trio that I am unfamiliar with (and the Sextet which is also quite a lovely work)
The Fano Quintet mentioned some time ago is available from Amazon.com in Mp3 format coupled with the Quartet for a bargain $5.99. I see some idiot wants $43 for the CD....... :D
There are quite a few well-played PQs on You Tube.
How about the Vaughan Williams with dbass- great late rom stuff, very early(pre 1910), non pentatonic folksong style.
Korngold is worth one's time too.
Any more ideas?
I have trouble thinking of any must-hear quintets that haven't been mentioned. Discovered a performance of an enjoyable modern tonal quintet by someone named Jeff Manookian on IMSLP yesterday that's worth a listen (score and recording there). I also like Rozsa's (1928) and Pejacevic's (and a few others that are way off this forum's map like Schnittke's though I haven't heard that one often) but I suppose that's all for a more general thread :) The Shostakovich, lukewarm though I may be on it at times, is probably a must-hear though.
(And even as big a fan of Reger as I am, and even knowing how important a place in his output as his op.64 merits at least as a turning point, I still haven't heard either of -his- quintets yet...)
Eric
Quote from: Glazier on Wednesday 09 June 2010, 08:55
Hey, do you want me to take my cricket/baseball bat home?
This thread is strictly p with v v va vc.
All Trout quintet combo people, please go and start your own thread!
Quote from: Glazier on Monday 20 September 2010, 15:23
How about the Vaughan Williams with dbass- great late rom stuff, very early(pre 1910), non pentatonic folksong style.
If you don't mind talking about quintets
with double bass, let's not forget the Götz. A bit of an oddball, if you take into account it was written about the same time as the Brahms piano quintet. I think the Götz and Vaughan Williams quintets must be counted among the last of their kind, since it was mainly the early romantics who used that scoring (Onslow, Farrenc). The Vaughan Williams piece is nice, but (like the Götz and the Schubert quintets!) rather light-weight. Perhaps this setting just doesn't agree with more serious, late-romantic music?
Thanks to Silvertrust's sound bites and IMSLP scores I've been able to get an impression of the Goetz. (excuse lack of umlaut) The Goetz is good, but the "grunty" elephantine quality of a double bass added to a small group seems in evidence there, whereas with VW the db blends in better.
Slightly off topic , I'd like to enthuse about Goetz' P quartet Op 6, a perfect Schumann era work.
Quote from: Glazier on Saturday 25 September 2010, 13:27
Thanks to Silvertrust's sound bites and IMSLP scores I've been able to get an impression of the Goetz. (excuse lack of umlaut) The Goetz is good, but the "grunty" elephantine quality of a double bass added to a small group seems in evidence there, whereas with VW the db blends in better.
There you are right.
And don't worry about the umlaut - I'm not a 100% sure about the correct spelling...
Quote from: Glazier on Saturday 25 September 2010, 13:27
Slightly off topic , I'd like to enthuse about Goetz' P quartet Op 6, a perfect Schumann era work.
Very nice indeed, but - as with most of his works - looking backward, rather than forward. But then again, that's thankfully not a crime anymore! Reminds me of Prince Louis Ferdinand's chamber music (which inspired Schumann).
Informative posts - but still no mention (or did I miss it?) of the marvelous 1918 PQ by Hermann Zilcher (issued on a Largo CD some years ago). There's a nice description of it here:
www.editionsilvertrust.com/zilcher-pno-quintet.htm
Quote from: Greg K on Tuesday 30 November 2010, 20:22
Informative posts - but still no mention (or did I miss it?) of the marvelous 1918 PQ by Hermann Zilcher (issued on a Largo CD some years ago). There's a nice description of it here:
http://www.editionsilvertrust.com/zilcher-pno-quintet.htm (http://www.editionsilvertrust.com/zilcher-pno-quintet.htm)
Also, a score and parts of it can be found here (http://imslp.org/wiki/Piano_Quintet,_Op.42_%28Zilcher,_Hermann%29) (though PD-US and CA, not EU.)
This is also off-topic since these are not must-hears, but has anyone heard and have an opinion of these piano quintets?
*Johann Bonawitz, quintet op.42 in B minor ca.1886.
*Blair Fairchild, quintet op.20 in D minor, by 1909
*Carl Georg Peter Grädener, quintets no.1 op.7 (by 1852) and no.2 op.57 in C sharp minor (ca.1871)
*Asger Hamerik, piano quintet op.6 in C minor (1862; recorded on Kontrapunkt)
*Hugo Kaun, piano quintet op.39 in F minor ca.1904.
*Edgar Stillman Kelley, piano quintet op.20 ca.1907. (this might be scanned in by Sibley Library eventually- they have the score, it's just not online, I mean... though since the composer died in 1944, the score would be PD-US/CA but not PD-EU, if so. Not recorded I think.)
I came to appreciate Heise through his Lieder, among the best I know. I have just recently become acquainted with the Heise Piano quintet in F major. It's one of those pieces that sounded pretty good at first hearing, and quite a bit better than pretty good after three attentive hearings (unlike a lot of my listening, which is at work or in the car). Not a bit like Schumann or Mendelssohn. A high-spirited romp ... yet serious, too. Heise's aim, I believe, was to provide a counterbalance to (what he heard as) the tragic Brahms's F-minor quintet (the one Schönberg orchestrated). To those who may not have heard it, I recommend the Heise quintet as a work brimming with vitality and a deceptively simple-sounding artistry, as with Dvorak.
In absolute agreement with you - it is a delightful work. Comes from a far more 'innocent' world than Brahms, and (spot on right in your description) brims over with vitality, deceptively simple-sounding artistry....and a great deal of joy.
If the Pf Quintet comes from 1869, do also try (if you can get hold of it) the earlier Piano Trio in E flat from 1864. A lovely, fun-filled work.
I've got it on a disc c/w the Gade Piano Trio in F major from 1863. Another fresh and delightful work!
erm, btw, Schoenberg orchestrated Brahms' piano quartet no.1 in G minor, op.25 (I gather because chamber groups couldn't put it across, at least not with good balance, at the time) (anyway, not a light-hearted work, but less distressed/tragic than the quintet, especially with that Ongarese finale to close.)
Thanks for getting the Brahms/Schönberg connection right, Eric. I was obviously dozing.
I'm quite certain that I've heard an orchestration of opus 34, though. I wonder who it was by...
Apologies for being so picky. (And while I'm still not positive I've run into any "must hear"s... hrm... hrm... actually, let me think about that before I say that, I've heard some _really_ good music in the last year or two; not "must hear" but perhaps "you might like it a whole lot" then... (someone sent me a tape of the Zarebski some years back so I've had the pleasure of its acquaintance for awhile now, and I wish I'd remembered to mention it, for instance.) Raff's quintet is pretty wonderful (ok, that too I didn't just first hear this year but have known for awhile...) (I see I still haven't listened to a broadcast of Ferdinand Hiller's piano quintet despite my increased interest in his music. My loss; will do so soon. Another one I've known for awhile I hope I mentioned or someone did is Rheinberger's in C, op.114; like his earlier and once very popular piano quartet, a charmer, I think.)
Piano Quintets form part of the indispensable furniture of the ideal world, so perhaps appropriate to resurrect this thread.
In the last week I've gained increasing pleasure with several 'hearings' of a fairly recent British Music Society disc - the Bingham Quartet and Raphael Terroni playing the 1st Cyril Scott Pf Quintet and that of Frank Bridge. Already on the shelves are recordings of both works, but a couple of especially enthusiastic reviews of the present disc in MusicWeb led me to suspend scrupulous control of the budget and to acquire the disc.
Bloomin' marvellous! I guess most will be familiar with the Bridge work, but it was the Scott in particular that drew me to the disc. Like the earlier Pf Quintets by Schumann, Brahms, Franck, Stanford and Dvorak (all, in my view, utter masterpieces) the Scott work is a big and passionate work. It takes some work to get to know it. You can't, for example, go for a post-hearing prowl and reflect on the work by humming or hearing with the inner ear some of the principal melodies - they slither out of your grasp. As with many of his other works - and especially the orchestral ones - Scott doesn't help casual listeners by (deliberately?) not providing headlines or landmarks. Each movement 'slithers', and although I hit on that word accidentally I think it perhaps a good word to mark a characteristic of Scott's compositional style.
In respect of that there's a nice anecdote in the CD booklet (a gem actually written by Giles Easterbrook). He tells the story that when Shaw complimented Elgar "that 'for an Englishman' his harmonies sounded remarkably modern" Elgar replied "you mustn't forget that it was Cyril Scott who started all that." Spot on!
The Quintet forms a 40 minute journey through an imposing landscape, and after travelling through it you're conscious of deep satisfaction - and some exhaustion. Would be magnificent to hear it in the concert hall. The final sentence of the notes read "The mood is then flamboyantly restored in a grand roundup of earlier material, as befits a work with creative unity as its spiritual agenda, and rushes headlong to end in a massive fortissimo of rich sustained strings and crashing piano chords." Ah, isn't that what music is about? I get excited reading that sentence and then recollecting the ending!
One respect in which the CD produced some dismay. The notes tell us that when the idea of the CD was first mooted with Raphael Terroni the initial plan was to couple the Scott with the Holbrooke Pf Quintet. The latter dates from 1904, and made such a powerful impression that both Bridge or Scott composing just a few years afterwards were writing in its shadow. Alas, with Raphael Terroni's cruel and fairly sudden death last year we shall never hear such a recording. And what an urgent need there surely is for a good modern recording of the Holbrooke Pf Quintet. I have a reasonable enough Marco Polo recording (from I think the early 1990s), but just contemplate what a whizz-bang thing a wonderful recording would be by, for example, Hyperion. Actually looking at the Holbrooke worklist, there are many significant chamber works lacking any recording. The world after all is not quite perfect.