Unsung Composers

Hi all,

I was hoping to get some help from members about a possibly attractive opportunity that has come up. Let me explain. A friend, who has been the main programmer for an orchestra in 'Central Europe' for two years now, has been the victim of my persistant rants about the fossilization of the orchestral repertory for some time now. During a talk a week or so ago, he challenged me to come up with five works that he promised he would study and listen to. If he deems one of them of sufficient quality and attractiveness, he'll see whether he can get it programmed within the next seasons.

We agreed on some rules, though:

   
• They must be 'performable' - so no one-and-a-half-hour behemoths that require triple percussion sections and the like. There goes the Natursinfonie.
• The score and parts must be easily available. No reading from manuscripts or extortionate rental fees. This requires some research, but it is doable.
• We're looking for something in the romantic/late romantic/post-romantic corner. Roughly (but not necessarily), composed between 1870 and 1914. It may be experimental, but it needs to remain firmly tonal and memorably melodic. Sorry, Charles Koechlin.
• The composer must be truly 'unsung'. His idea, not mine. But that rules out the likes of Franz Schmidt, for instance.
• We're looking for a major work - a symphony, concerto or a substantial tonal poem.

He's a good friend, and I'm taking his word seriously. But it also puts something of a responsibility on my shoulders (at least, that's how I feel it).  And to be honest, I must confess that I find the task rather daunting. There are more than enough works that I would advice a friend to hear, but this is a lot more specific and it might (just might) lead to a suggestion actually being performed.

Within these parameters, I would appreciate it if any of you could give me some reasoned suggestions. Not just lists of five works, if you wouldn't mind. I have some ideas of my own, of course, but I'm curious what you can come up with.

Raff's Second Symphony.

1. At around 35 minutes, it is eminently programmable.
2. A modern edition of the score and parts is available for rent from Edition Nordstern at reasonable cost.
3. It's one of Raff's best works: memorably tuneful, expertly scored, concisely structured and downright exciting in the right hands (point your friend to Järvi's recording).
4. There's nothing quirky about it, so no allowances have to be made as its idiom is familiar to musicians and audiences alike, making it a real showcase for the genuine repertory-worthiness of some unsung works.
5. The audience will love it once they hear it, so neither your friend nor you will be embarrassed by its reception!
6. OK, it was written in 1866, but you implied some flexibility...

Hi Mark,


Yes, that was one of my ideas (along with the 8th). The risk is that from what I know about the person in question, it might not match his taste... Still, I trust him to recognize the piece's quality, and thankfully we have a *very* good recording.

Ciiffe violin concerto.  It is melodic, with a beautiful violin part to please the masses.  Can easily be checked out from the Hyperion recording.  Saint Saens second symphony for something French or Dvoraks first symphony which is rarely performed.

If concertos are acceptable, what about Raff's for piano. I suppose that, together with the "Lenore" Symphony it is the work which first got us hooked. It is immediately attractive at first hearing. I can't imagine anyone not enjoying it.

The piano concerto by Bronsart? Is there a more immediately enjoyable concerto (not) in the repertoire? But who plays it?

But my most practical suggestion is Ludolf Nielsen's Second Symphony....the "Symphony of Joy". Tuneful (Tchaikovsky is an influence), very well written and with an enormously exhilarating finale, it is irresistible. Nielsen is also truly unsung, at least outside Denmark. Perhaps Raff doesn't really count as unsung anymore.

Hrm... .
How difficult would Wilhelm Berger's 2nd symphony (premiered 1900) be to put together? Probably a question of the parts... Score @ IMSLP.

Ernest Bloch's Symphony in C# minor. An incredibly powerful, beautiful work. Very melodic - unlike most of his later music. The 2nd movement is so uplifting and majestic. The orchestration is large, but any real orchestra should be able to handle it without problems. Score and parts from Kalmus. Yes, it's been recorded (three times now), but has anyone ever heard of it being programmed live. In a world which can't seem to get enough of the Mahler symphonies, the Bloch should be far better known.

Litolff: Concerto Symphonique No. 4 for piano & orchestra - everyone knows the scherzo but the whole work (which is beautifully melodic IMHO and virtuosic, full of energy and exuberance) is never performed in concert. Score and parts in Fleisher.
Litolff: Eroica Concerto Symphonique for violin & orchestra. Never performed in modern times (at least to my knowledge) and still to be recorded. A very attractive and melodic work (from my reading of the Piano/Violin Score in British Library). Score and Parts in Fleisher.

Firstly, I will suggest two works which should hopefully fit the criteria but more specifically for the reason that I possess full scores and complete sets of parts:
(1) Stojowski:- Suite Op9 which has a playing time of around 25 minutes, is certainly unsung, and is memorably tuneful.
(2) Moszkowski:- Orchestral Suite No2 Op47. This suite is in six movements and although, as far as I am aware, there are no recorded performances (certainly no commercial recordings) on which to base an initial impression, this can be achieved by playing through the piano duet reduction (available at IMSLP, as well as the Full Score [without parts]). As with most of Moszkowski's  work, melodic content is all-important and is much in evidence throughout what seems to be a work of around 45 minutes duration!
(3) Moszkowski:- Piano Concerto No1 Op3 (The new published edition by Symétrie labels this as OP3! - and also they now have available the complete performing material). This work probably needs little in the way of further introduction, but the more performances the better, and the mere dimensions of this concerto should hopefully dispel any outdated misconceptions re   Moszkowski's reputation as a mere composer of "salon" music.
(4) Xaver Scharwenka:- Obviously, any of the four piano concertos would be more than welcome, but perhaps his Symphony Op60 should be given serious consideration. Once again, this is a most attractive work, high on melodic content with a wonderfully strong conclusion, surely guaranteed to send any audience home more than satisfied! I'm not quite sure about the ease of obtaining parts (perhaps Chris Fifield can help advise here), but I do have a full score available if required!

Hi Ilja

Thank you for your efforts and for the opportunity that you are offering. I would be delighted to propose this new edition:

'Kjerulf's Love' - Songs for voice and orchestra - Halfdan Kjerulf [1815 - 1868]
I am currently working on this project with an expected publication date in September, timed to coincide with the composer's bicentenary. This transcription of 9 songs and 2 duets to form a song cycle for Tenor, Soprano and orchestra has the aim of raising the composer's profile. I made a virtual recordings of two of the songs, when I started this project a couple of years ago as a birthday present for the Kjerulf expert, the late Nils Grinde.
https://youtu.be/ct-WtkjzOZY (https://youtu.be/ct-WtkjzOZY)
and
https://youtu.be/V5mkUf8SGCw (https://youtu.be/V5mkUf8SGCw)

alternatively I would propose either of the 2 works that I have researched and published as orchestral sets:

*Sinfonie in E-Dur - Emilie Mayer [the female Beethoven] - composed 1863
http://www.trubcher.com/Emilie_Mayer_Symphony_p/979-0-708082-75-0.htm (http://www.trubcher.com/Emilie_Mayer_Symphony_p/979-0-708082-75-0.htm)

*Sinfonia no 2 in mi Bem - Giovanni Sgambati - composed 1883
http://www.trubcher.com/sgambati_sinfonia_2_p/979-0-708082-44-6.htm
(http://www.trubcher.com/sgambati_sinfonia_2_p/979-0-708082-44-6.htm)

How about Waghalter's VC? Many of us enjoyed it very much! I have no idea if it is available for rental though...

Why 1914? That seems unnecessarily arbitrary. Many works written after that date would fit the imposed criteria. I'll come up with my list soon. Frankly I don't think Raff qualifies as unsung anymore. IMO the 20th century needs our help far more than the 19th.

This is an interesting challenge and I'm going to think a bit more about it before suggesting works.

One thing I would note -- any concerto would require a soloist who knows the work or is willing to invest a lot of time learning the work. It also adds more expense to the programming. So, I will focus my thoughts more about orchestral works.

I also think the 1914 date is an unfortunate limitation. Romantic and late romantic style music was being written even into the 1950s in Soviet Russia, so a cut off date like 1914 eliminates a composer like Myaskovsky. That said, I suppose 1914 was an important historic point with the beginning of WWI, and by then we also were suffering the full frontal attack of modernism.

I consider the recently rediscovered and resurrected violin concerto of Fran Lhotka to be a major find, but I have no idea of what materials the recent performance of it was made from. 

Raff's 4th Symphony would also be a good choice, as would his 2nd violin concerto.

Any concerto by Reinecke, but particularly the cello concerto.  You have a soloist already, Michael Samis, who, I'm sure would be willing to perform it anywhere.

Also by Reinecke, the 2nd or 3rd Symphonies.

I'm rather fond of the piano concerto in A minor by the Danish composer August Winding.  A delightful alternative to the threadbare Grieg concerto.

That's all for now.

I think Ros Trubcher's suggestions are excellent, and gladly second them; as I do Martin Eastick's.

One day, someone is going to record the Borowski piano concerto and i hope i am still around to hear it.

Thal

Well so do I, but do you know where the orchestral material is?

Can be hired from Carl Fischer old chap.

Thal

I suggest Léon Boëllmann's Symphony in F op. 24.
No recording available (except a very old broadcast), 35 minutes long, created 1892, requiring the classical romantic orchestra, in a Franckian idiom. After recent resurrection of other French symphonies of the period, by Vierne and Widor, this one is still neglected. Parts are available on rental from Durand-Salabert-Eschig (cat #313) and the full score can be obtained from the Bibliothèque Nationale de France for a nominal fee.

Available very, very easily in full published/manuscript (but -readable- manuscript!! copies) score and parts too, and looks worthwhile- the violin concerto in G minor Op.52 (http://imslp.org/wiki/Violin_Concerto,_Op.52_(Hollaender,_Gustav)) by Gustav Hollaender (pub.1893). These are the copies used, I think, by Dutch radio for their own performances, so they're arguably performance-ready. (Some IMSLP sources are from Dutch Radio Orch. or NY Phil archives and so have already been gone through by orchestras...)

To answer Revilod, the only recording I can find of the Bronsart was Michael Ponti's way back when.  Don't know that anyone has played it since.

Jerry

I just wanted to point out that the orchestra parts for two works mentioned above Raff's Second Symphony (http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.2,_Op.140_%28Raff,_Joachim%29) and X. Scharwenka's Symphony, Op. 60 (http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony,_Op.60_%28Scharwenka,_Xaver%29) are available for free on IMSLP.  There is a growing collection of orchestra parts on IMSLP originating from the NYPO archives.  The full list is here (http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:Scores_from_the_New_York_Philharmonic_Orchestra_Digital_Archives).

QuoteCan be hired from Carl Fischer old chap.

Thank you so much.

Just want to add my suggestions.

Symphony-
Klughardt - Symphony No. 5
Berwald - Symphony No. 3 [Other than the numerous recordings I do think this is a concert hall rarity]
Goetz - Symphony
Raff - Symphony No. 5
Weingartner  - Symphony No. 6 "La tragica" [I love this one!!!]

Concerto -
Klughardt - Violin Concerto
Rubinstein - Piano Concerto No. 5
Berwald - Piano Concerto
Frederic d' Erlanger - Violin Concerto
Raff - Cello Concerto No. 2

Hi all,


Thank you for all those suggestions! The problem in concertante works is, of course, that you need to find a soloist willing to study the piece and perform it for what is most likely a one-off. But we'll give it a go - and the Bronsart is a very good suggestion that ticks all the 'right' boxes.


I'm afraid Raff, Berwald (they did a Berwald concerto not too long ago) and even Goetz may already be too well-known for this purpose, but I'm going to suggest the Raff 2 anyway. Regarding Scharwenka I can say that it looks as though the orchestra in question shall be performing one of his concertos (the 2nd, most likely) two seasons from now.


Keep the suggestions coming, though. I promise to publish my eventual list here when I send it on.

I'm surprised nobody mentioned the symphony by Paul Dukas.  I know that it's been recorded a few times but it still is a concert-hall rarity.
The symphony by Georgy Catoire likewise, except it hasn't even been recorded a few times.
Raff's Cello Concerto No. 2 is indeed a fine work, but just about any of his concertante works would fit the bill here.
Anton Rubinstein's 5th PC, as much as I'd like to see it performed more frequently, is almost 50 minutes long.  May I suggest one of the first 3?  Nos. 1 & 2 get particularly short shrift, and No. 3 used to rival the 4th in popularity but has almost completely fallen out of sight.
Danish composers in general get overlooked, no doubt because their music in the 19th Century was fairly mainstream conservative, but since that is right up the alley we're looking in, may I suggest any of the symphonies of Niels Gade besides the 1st?  Not that it's overplayed, but it's probably his best known one, and there are some pretty great utterances in the 4th and 5th.  The 5th is eminently worthwhile, but needs a piano soloist.  Any works by Malling or Hartmann père ou fils would also fit the bill, particularly the violin concerto by Emil Hartmann.  The symphonies of Bendix are also worth a look, and I think the scores are available, how readily, however, I know not.

Problem is, I think with many of these suggestions the works may be undersung but the composers (e.g. Dukas) are sometimes fairly well-known, if for only one, 1.1, 1.5, or 2 works...

At the risk of making too many posts and suggestions (especially since I agree with some of the above, though I don't always know where to find the material in readily useable form...)

*Jadassohn's 2nd symphony, score and parts (http://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.2,_Op.28_(Jadassohn,_Salomon)) (1860s- a little earlier than your frame- and recently recorded- but...)
*Stojowski's violin concerto (http://imslp.org/wiki/Violin_Concerto,_Op.22_(Stojowski,_Sigismond)) (published 1908, again score and parts.) Maybe one of his other works? I think some broadcasts have been uploaded here and some recordings recently released also.
*Forsyth's viola concerto in G minor (http://imslp.org/wiki/Viola_Concerto_in_G_minor_(Forsyth,_Cecil)). There's a recording on Hyperion, but that's it, I think... and the link has, I believe, full score, parts and reduction (by John Ireland, so copyright-restricted some places.)

Draeseke's 3rd Symphony. Composer virtually unknown; symphony surely one of the greatest by an unsung.

York Bowen Viola Concerto.

In his opening post, Ilja writes:

QuoteThe score and parts must be easily available. No reading from manuscripts or extortionate rental fees. This requires some research, but it is doable.

I think it would, therefore, be very useful if those making suggestions would endeavour to do a bit of research (as many of you have) beforehand in order to be able to direct Ilja to the score AND parts of the works we are suggesting, bearing in mind that he has specifically asked for no MS scores and parts. Admittedly, this makes life a wee bit difficult since a lot of works, even by well-known composers were never actually engraved - at least the orchestral parts (with sometimes the exception of the string parts) were not. They exist only in handwritten form, though such parts were usually made by professional copyists and are eminently readable (occasionally more so than poorly engraved sets). Nevertheless, they count as MSS.
I have foreborne to mention some of my favourite unsung pieces because, although published. they were not printed, so the only performing material available is handwritten. This is the case with some of York Bowen's works (as I discovered on a visit to De Wolfe's some years ago).

Is Stenhammar too sung by now? His first symphony of 1903 exists in a nice (relatively) new typeset (freely available, I think, though the parts may require some rental fee- hopefully not extortionate though; question of contacting the typesetter?...) score (downloadable from Swedish Musical Heritage). (First edition, I think, or second- not sure if MPH's publication, which I believe was a reprint of the manuscript, came first, or no. MPH has published some first-typesets - Magnard's first two symphonies e.g. - but I'm not sure about availability of typeset _parts_- a project for someone? (The ms scores of both of those are @IMSLP...)

Where is DeWolfe, and what works of Bowen did you see?

All of Magnard's symphonies were published by Salabert. Parts are available from Durand-Eschig-Salabert. I don't know the rental fee, though.
See http://www.durand-salabert-eschig.com/formcat/location/symphonie_francaise.pdf (http://www.durand-salabert-eschig.com/formcat/location/symphonie_francaise.pdf)
for Magnard, Boëllmann and possibly others (Lazzari, Witkowski).

Vasily Kalafati, Russian, 1869-1942.  Nothing of his has been recorded bar a couple of orchestrations form Schumann's Carnevale, totalling about 4 minutes' worth.   In books about that period, he is often described as "one of the most important composers in Russia during his lifetime", or words to that effect.  He was a student of Rimsky-Korsakov.  His symphonic poem Legenda won the prize at the 1928 International Schubert Competition in Vienna and for that reason I think it would be well worth (re)discovering.

QuoteWhere is DeWolfe, and what works of Bowen did you see?

De Wolfe's is at:
De Wolfe Music
Shropshire House
11-20 Capper Street
London
WC1E 6JA
UK
Tel: 44 (0) 20 7631 3600
info@dewolfemusic.co.uk

The main scores I looked at were:

Fantasy Overture on 'Tom Bowling', Op.115
Sinfonietta Concertante for brass & orchestra
Somerset Suite
Holiday Suite
Symphonic Suite (movements 1, 2 and 4) - movt. 3 is missing

Ralph Couzens of Chandos told me he was hoping to record some more York Bowen, including the Tom Bowling Fantasy and the Sinfonietta. He had booked sessions with the the BBC Philharmonic and Andrew Davis for spring of this year, but I have heard nothing and I suspect this project has not been brought to fruition, but I will contact him again and ask.

Here are my ideas, some composers may be sung in certain countries and unsung or indeed unknown in others. I travelled 200km recently to experience RVW's A Sea Symphony live for the first time in my life - just to give an example.

In chronological order, but not necessarily in order of either easy availability or my personal preference:

1. Sigurd Lie (1898' - 1903): Symphony in A Minor, 31'. Worldcat lists a score in Naxos music Library, but I have never used this. There is a 2004 CD with the Kristiansand SO conducted by Terje Boye Hansen. The score and parts are available from the Norwegian National Library: here (http://nb.bibits.no/wsRecInfo.asp?idno=53524&UnitId=0&DocGrp=0&SearchUnitId=0&LoanUnitId=1&comb=AND&sString=FO=lie,%20sigurdAND%20searchUnitId0%20AND%20NOT%20searchUnitId=4)


2. G. W. L. Marshall-Hall: Symphony in E-flat (1903), about 36'. Presumably, performing materials could be obtained from or with the help of the University of Melbourne: here (http://www.marshall-hall.unimelb.edu.au/orchestral/Symphony_E_flat.html)

3. John McEwen: A Solway Symphony (1911), 34'. This was recorded by Alasdair Mitchell conducting the London Philharmonic, so presumably performing materials should be available. A score is on IMSLP, but not PD in the EU.

4. Granville Bantock: Hebridean Symphony (1913), 35'. This has been recorded and a full score is available on IMSLP, but it may not be PD everywhere.

5. And finally, why not one of the symphonies by Noskowski? I haven't heard Symphony 3, which seems to be the one most favoured by UC members. It dates from 1904.

Wheesht, this (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,241.0.html) might help your link problem...

Thanks a lot, Mark it has helped and I have duly amended my post.

Gareth, thanks for that information. Bowen is of great interest to me. His 2nd Symphony would make a terrific impression in concert.

My suggestion are

Ernest Schelling (1876-1939)
      1. Légende Symphonique
      2. Impressions from an Artist's Life - Symphonic Variations for Orchestra and Piano
      3. Violin Concerto
Henryk Bobinski (1861-1941)
      1. Piano Concerto in e min, Op.8

All scores are from IMSLP. 

Another suggestion (but slightly out of year limit)
Eduard Frank (1817-1893) - early work
     1.  Piano Concerto in D min, Op13
          score published by Pfefferkorn Musikverlag. Leipzig
          ISMN : 9790501390342 (score); 9790501390359 (piano reduction)

The Ernest Schelling performance material (scores and parts) are available from Fleisher. The score and parts for the Legende and the VC are printed; those for Impressions are slightly worn ozalids.
I don't know where the orchestral score and parts for the Bobinski PC are. Probably in Moscow somewhere - or it is possible the Staatsbibliothek zu Berlin has copies.
I have a photocopy of the full score of the Franck, and I think I can lay my hands on a set of parts.
This is the sort of information Ilja needs.

I would certainly play the Schelling Violin Concerto. If it has s problem it is that the scoring is for a large orchestra, including two harps. It can be difficult to persuade orchestras to commit such resources and commensurate rehearsal time for a worthy but unknown work when they can run through Mendelssohn in 30 minutes or less. A craven wind blows across the majority of orchestras these days.

Yes - triple woodwind required for all the Schelling, works and 2 harps and 3 trumpets in both the VC and Variations. So perhaps a bit too big.

So many wonderful works worthy of promotion. But I notice that discussion seems to focus almost exclusively on "important" multi-movement works. Were I in Ilja's position, I should think single-movement works might be easier to sell as introductions to their composers. Dukas' Sorcerer's Apprentice rather than his Symphony in C, for example. Rimsky's Russian Easter Overture rather than his Symphony 3, for example.  Brahms'  Academic Festival Overture rather than his Symphony 4, for example. Works that show their composer's special talents and craft in a good light, as Romeo and Juliet does Tchaikovsky's. Make sense? Or am I missing something?

None of those mentioned works are unsung, and indeed are overexposed.

As for Schelling, triple woodwind isn't as bad as two harps and extra percussionists; in the USA cartage fees are involved, so that is a further strike against those scores. What a shame.

I think the idea, chill319 (is it Christopher?) was major works, not overtures or short pieces.  Not to mention that, as John pointed out, you're bringing up repertory works that (in the case of Dukas) are the only things keeping the composer in the concert hall regularly.  His friend was looking for stuff like the Dukas Symphony in C, not The Sorcerer's Apprentice.

How about Nepomuceno's symphony in G minor? Published in 1938, Fleisher has score and parts, the question is whether or not there's typeset (in the sense of moveable-type, not computer-typeset) score and parts both anywhere. There's been an LP and a CD, I think, both of limited distribution, but the work is still, like the composer, rather unsung- if quite good (a recording of it was uploaded here awhile back, I believe...)

A couple of works that I came up with that I believe fit the criteria are Rott's Symphony in E major and Kalinnikov's Symphony No. 1 in G minor. Both composers and works are definitely unsung and fit the time frame you're looking for.

Although neither Rott or Kalinnikov appear in concert programs that much, they are hardly "truly" unsung. Both symphonies have been recorded many times, though invariably by second-tier orchestras. I wish Berlin, Vienna, London, New York et al would take up either, I won't hold my breath.

Actually, the Kalinnikov has been recorded by the superlative Malaysian PO (BIS) and the Rott by the equally superlative Frankfurt RSO (RCA). I frankly doubt whether the standard of execution on either CD could be exceeded by the so-called great names of the orchestral world. Nevertheless, I too would like to see these works get higher profile exposure in the concert world.

The Rott, btw, is being performed (twice- in London, and in Basingstoke) in April 2016 by Simon Rattle conducting the Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment (using, I assume and hope, instruments either modern or sounding anyway of a generation no older than would be expected in Rott's time...) The London concert is described as "Orchestra of the Age of Enlightenment: Sir Simon Rattle conducts Bruckner" (Bruckner 6, which besides Brahms' Tragic Ov. is the rest of the program.)

(Looking at the same site on which I learned of that concert, I see a concert with some Eugen d'Albert - his overture to Esther- this evening in Glasgow. Neat :))

Now that's something - Rattle, one of the preeminent conductors of our time, doing something like the Rott. Given his Mahler creds, I suppose it's a natural.

I meant no disrespect to Frankfurt or Malaysia regarding their fine orchestras, and it would be hard to imagine any of the so-called majors improving on their performances. By second-tier I just mean in terms of public profile and likely their budgets.  I am delighted to see Rattle doing the Rott, and nothing against the OAE, but boy, wouldn't it have said something if he did it with Berlin or London or Vienna?

Rattle's also conducted (and recorded) Suk (Asrael), Szymanowski (recorded sym.3 & Stabat Mater, is performing vn.conc. 2 this year- hrm- wonder if that signals a recording?...) - among others... but yes, usually with the Berlin Philh, these days, it's true.
(Oh, apparently he's only doing the Scherzo of the Rott- in London or in Basingstoke, according to the descriptions of the programs there. Ah well!!!!!!)

are Glazunov's symphonies featured in concert halls? Else Id like to suggest No. 4, 5, 6 as they are really fine works.... But then I am a Glazunov fan :D 

QuoteRattle's also conducted (and recorded) Suk (Asrael)

He may have conducted it (I haven't checked), but he certainly hasn't recorded it.

FBerwald, Glazunov isn't an unsung in German concert halls; I've seen the Sixth appear about three times in concert programmes over the past years. And of course in Russia he's pretty much part of the repertory.

Re Rattle and Suk- misremembered something I'd read. He's conducted it (with the CBSO, and with the Los Angeles Philharmonic in 1993 to predictably poor reviews- of the music anyway... (http://articles.latimes.com/1993-02-01/entertainment/ca-794_1_simon-rattle)) but you seem to be right as to the rest.
(Likewise, Roger Norrington took up an Onslow symphony on tour some years back, as I recall, but didn't record that either... Then again, I'm guessing the only reason we have Kubelik's account of Suk's Asrael, which I'm told may be one of the best released to date*, is because radio tapes were preserved or somesuch, not because of an active decision to record it for release...)

*And which I do look forward to hearing, but I realize the whole Suk-thing, or 99% of it, gets us offtrack. (Though I remember when that work seemed as wholly unsung- and not just to a general classical audience- as Shostakovich's (then) recently re-re-discovered 4th symphony :), back in the 1990s... anyway, anyway. Apologies again!!...)

Eric, that review didn't seem that harsh at all to me. In fact, I don't mind a critical appraisal of the music; what I do object to is not talk about a piece's strenghts and weaknesses at all, and only focus on performance. That practice often makes it seem as though critics will judge anything unfamiliar to them as 'lesser' music.

Fair enough, fair enough, of course! And I admit to some doubts about the cogency of parts of the symphony that I hope will be somewhat, if not wholly, resolved by , of course, more listens, some of them with the now-available score in front of me (something which sometimes helps a lot...), maybe some live performances too (haven't, yet.)
(I also admit shamefacedly that I don't know which theme it is in the Asrael symphony (the Asrael or Death theme?...) that at least one later composer- Ullmann - quotes in one of his last works (the opera The Emperor of Atlantis, I think.) with, as at least one writer put it, the expectation that the very musical/artistic audience at Terezin would readily recognize the theme, the reference, its significance, Suk's music having been much more a part of their culture than it is of ours...)

Quote from: Alan Howe on Wednesday 15 July 2015, 22:42
Actually, the Kalinnikov has been recorded by the superlative Malaysian PO (BIS) and the Rott by the equally superlative Frankfurt RSO (RCA). I frankly doubt whether the standard of execution on either CD could be exceeded by the so-called great names of the orchestral world. Nevertheless, I too would like to see these works get higher profile exposure in the concert world.

Exactly my point. The question dealt with concert hall performances. I had no idea of the popularity of Rott in EU. America is another story. The Kalinnikov would be a good choice and based on the popularity of the performance the second symphony could be performed the following. Have any of you ever heard Kalinnikov live?

Kalinnikov live, no, but I have a recording of a live performance, Yuri Ahronovich conducted the German SWR SO. It's my favourite recording. The orchestra isn't always homogenous but Ahronovich infects it whith an inspiring zest. Judging from this recording he was a hugely underrated conductor.

In the US there are some works that have been consigned to community, amateur, and layman's orchestras. The Kalinnikov first is firmly there and appears frequently. I've played it several times in the past dozen years with various groups. It's not that difficult to play. Similarly, the Borodin 2nd, Hanson 2nd, the symphonies of Franck and Chausson. I'm unaware of any amateur group doing the Rott - no doubt the large rental fees having something to do with that.

YouTube has a video of the Binghamton (NY, I suppose, which is an hour away from me) playing the first movement of the Kalinnikov first, for instance (in 2012). Hadn't thought to look at community orchestras in my searches (I should have; sometimes some of them- especially if I include those in Canada in "them", e.g.- play some delightfully unusual stuff - I think some works by Vagn Holmboe and Havergal Brian* were premiered, or given rare performances, by community orchestras in the US and Canada, e.g., so ignoring them as I seem to have done is counterproductive to my search purposes...



*And the local chamber orchestra here in Ithaca does this and that, too. That said, I know, I know already - not within our current remit, but I will say this- if I have to stick to the remit for every single _subclause_ of a subclause of a sentence even including just those meant to prove a point, I'll be still writing this in 2056** looking for examples, and: NO. Not gonna. By then anyway the remit will have been tightened even further- if the forum still exists...

**... hrm, I should live so long. (Kein ayin hara...)

Another answer that comes maybe to mind- a couple of early Ferdinand Hiller symphonies (and other works, including, I think, a work-catalog he kept at the time with incipits) were digitized by GUF on his anniversary a few years back.  I began typesetting the parts of one of them but didn't continue then. (Got further than just the flute part that I uploaded to IMSLP, though.) Depending on the timeframe of this, and whether or not a bit of Ferdinand Hiller relative-juvenilia could satisfy the requirements if the score & parts were newly computer-typeset, well, could soon have a new go... Unless GUF has some rental-fee/other requirements I'm not aware of for the use of their scanned scores, that would be, I think, wholly free except for printer costs etc. on someone's end, I guess...

Since we were discussing the Naxos re-release what about the first symphony of Ippolitov-Ivanov?

sdtom: falls afoul of
"The composer must be truly 'unsung'.".
(See first post of the thread.)
For myself I couldn't call the composer of the first set of Caucasian Sketches (e.g.) unsung...

I could. When was the last time anyone played Caucasian Sketches in concert? It's even disappeared from the repertoire of amateur groups. It's probably been 40 years since I've played it. There are a lot of younger conductors and orchestra players who have never heard it, or heard of it. The only thing that keeps it marginally alive is the Procession of the Sardar. Only dedicated collectors and people who frequent this board are aware that there are two suites, a symphony, and some other music. Ippolitov-Ivanov has really fallen off the radar.

I can hear shouts of 'Ippolitov-Ivanov? Who's he?' from here  ;).

This on a group where Berwald - who has no such item that's ever kept his name alive in the wider repertoire outside of Sweden (mutatis mutandis Russia/USSR for Ip-Iv, of-co...), except to classical fanatics like us-I-mean-me ;) - is generally considered a bit too relatively sung iirc? :D

His sketches are on many popular Russian compilations I'll grant you that but in reality he is pretty obscure these days and the Symphony is unknown by many.

Berwald? No, I'd say he was unsung, Eric.

Known to us, but out there in the real world - unsung. Definitely. Sadly.

Re Berwald: my misreading (seriously, unsarcastically, etc.!)

I was looking at the - how would I once have put it, back in my math student years (or maybe back before then, in science courses...) - the bounding parameters, or something - given in the first post of this thread- and several times thinking to myself, yes-- those are really hard to satisfy all at once... a (composer, music...) pair (triple, whatever...) satisfying some is probably going to fall afoul of one of the others (practically unknown, check; Romantic-era, check; ... score/parts available in nice readable non-manuscript editions that don't also cost a bundle to buy or rent - hrm, so often a problem there given the other conditions (at least for orchestral music) ... &c,&c,...)

I must say I think the requirement that there be "no reading from manuscripts" is absurd. Most 19th century scores of relatively unsung (and some sung) composers will not have had orchestral parts (other than strings) actually printed. They will be available in perfectly legible handwritten form, produced by professional copyists whose job it was to produce easy to read parts for orchestral musicians. In this respect the Fleisher Collection would prove a valuable resource. Anyway, any respectable orchestral musician should be able to read from a professional copyist's part.

But have you seen the parts from Fleisher? Many of them are quite readable and well done, but some were done by people who clearly weren't professionals in the Clinton Roemer sense! Better than nothing, to be sure, and I'm very, very grateful the library is there, but wouldn't it be nice if the same spirit that the library was created, a new generation would go in and put everything on modern notation software?

I have seen a lot of parts from Fleisher - and all that I have seen have been perfectly legible. Perhaps I've just been lucky!

Yes, some are quite well done - and maybe it was the (un)luck of the draw. I went there years ago to do some research. The scores I sought were either engraved or really well copied. Alas, some of the parts were abysmal - just like some that come from Kalmus.

Ah yes, the Kalmus parts - famous for their plethora of egregious errors.

What of the Chadwick symphonies? 2 & 3 have been recorded, but are never played in the concert hall. And nobody's done ANYTHING with his No. 1 of 1881, the very readable MS full score of which just appeared on IMSLP. (I think there are parts at the New England Conservatory.) Or the John Knowles Paine gorgeous 2nd Symphony - parts of which are at Fleisher - which hasn't had much (or any) of an airing since Zubin Mehta and the NYPO recorded it over 20 years ago. I could also recommend Henry Hadley's 2nd, "The Four Seasons", which is quite wonderful and hasn't even been re-recorded since the Karl Krueger days.

Live performance is such a crucial element, but audiences, players, and management are really clamping down these days. Several years ago, we had Armild Remmereit as conductor of the Rochester Philharmonic, and in his one season here he did, among other things, Amy Beach's symphony and William Henry Fry's Macbeth overture, and both were stunning performances (he gave by far the best reading of the Beach I've ever heard). Talk about unsung, especially the Fry. Unfortunately, he ran afoul of management and some of the players, was unceremoniously sacked (against public opinion), and we now have Ward Stare who conducts a very uninteresting same-old repertoire very well, suiting the players, most of the patrons, and the benefactors here, fitting into the fashionable "young virtuoso" mold, and (to be honest) working very hard and honorably within an unpromising financial situation. I should go and support them, but there's little in the concerts to interest me, so my money sadly goes to recorded music and scores.

QuoteOr the John Knowles Paine gorgeous 2nd Symphony - parts of which are at Fleisher - which hasn't had much (or any) of an airing since Zubin Mehta and the NYPO recorded it over 20 years ago.

Well, Falletta has recorded it for Naxos:
http://www.mdt.co.uk/paine-orchestral-works-vol-2-joann-falletta-naxos-american-classics.html
(http://www.mdt.co.uk/paine-orchestral-works-vol-2-joann-falletta-naxos-american-classics.html)
Not really 'gorgeous' in my view - the work's too pedestrian to go that far...

By the way, the Mehta recording was done in 1986 - how time flies!

QuoteI suggest Léon Boëllmann's Symphony in F op. 24.
No recording available (except a very old broadcast), 35 minutes long, created 1892, requiring the classical romantic orchestra, in a Franckian idiom. After recent resurrection of other French symphonies of the period, by Vierne and Widor, this one is still neglected. Parts are available on rental from Durand-Salabert-Eschig (cat #313) and the full score can be obtained from the Bibliothèque Nationale de France for a nominal fee.

That was my suggestion. I've recently discovered that this symphony had been performed by a semi-professional orchestra. A private CD of their concert has been issued, which I was able to buy.
http://www.orchestredelalliance.fr/Pages/ecouter.html (http://www.orchestredelalliance.fr/Pages/ecouter.html)

You could try some of the tone poems by Vitezslav Novak.

I'll have to listen to the Falletta of the Paine 2. I think the opening and much of the last movement _is_ gorgeous; if you really need to use the word "pedestrian" for anything, I would say it more applies to the Paine 1st Symphony (and much other repertoire discussed here, but I wouldn't have the ill-grace to single things out so dismissively if presumably educated people enjoy the works enough to praise them... :)) And again, when can we hear it live? I had never thought much of the Beach symphony until it was done here - I actually agreed with some of the original critics who thought it "overwritten" - but Remmereit's performance showed it could have fire, colour, and melodic style.

The CD culture is becoming really depressing.

Did a search to try to answer that last question, and one thing I do see is that his "As You Like It" overture was performed by Ronald Feldman and the Longwood Symphony Orchestra on December 7 2013, so that's something anyway...

QuoteI wouldn't have the ill-grace to single things out so dismissively if presumably educated people enjoy the works enough to praise them...

Hmmm. It seems that ill-grace often characterises the person whose precious opinion someone else has the temerity to disagree with.

Oh yes, Paine 2 does have some gorgeous moments, even sections - but that's a far cry from being gorgeous overall, which was what was implied. Nope sorry: the piece is too long and of insufficient inspiration overall to justify the description.

Of course, this is just an opinion. But I think I can justify it.

Now for something truly gorgeous throughout, try the Lassen VC. And you are welcome to disagree with my assessment of it. Perhaps it's merely pedestrian after all...

I would say these are all opinions, not facts. And I suppose we should let Ilja decide what is of sufficient interest to program, as was the original intent of this strand as I understood it.

Well, there must be some factual basis for our opinions, otherwise there would be no basis for debate at all. For there to be debate, there must surely be a shared understanding of what terms like 'gorgeous' or 'pedestrian' mean.

Is this a suggestion to Ilja, as we are the only two people who have ventured widely differing opinions on a work, or an opening of a new topic? I am hesitant to say anything to counter words like "nope" and "pedestrian", though I could if it was warranted and pertinent. I didn't make my suggestion frivolously or without conviction, but I apologize for my response to your negative opinion.  This is becoming needlessly challenging. I think Ilja can make a judgment on his own if he hears and examines the work for the purpose originally stated, and as you have pointed out to others before in other circumstances, this seems to be straying from the original topic.

I'd say this thread probably has run its course. Unless Ilja objects, perhaps it's time to close it.

I agree. Let us wait to hear from Ilja as to what he has chosen and success he may have. And thank everyone for their suggestions.

Oh, so little time. I'm hoping to conclude this soon and not leave you in suspense much longer.