How about this new orchestration of his late Piano Quintet:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/piano-quintet-sea-pictures/hnum/2436064
(https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/piano-quintet-sea-pictures/hnum/2436064)
If that one counts as a "symphony", we should probably add Gordon Jacob's orchestration of the Organ Sonata, Op. 28a, too. That brings the number of Elgar symphonies to five. ;D
I'm not getting excited until I at least hear some audio examples. Elgar's sound is so distinctive...
My reaction is - Why? The quintet doesn't need orchestrating - it's just fine as it is.
Well, for me it's not a question of either-or, but both-and. I like orchestrations...
I like some orchestrations - especially of keyboard music. But (as I have said before) I wish more attention were paid to the orchestration of works originally written for orchestra but for which we now have only piano scores.
That's a very good point. Of course, this is precisely what has been done with Draeseke's VC, but no-one seems interested in performing it, let alone recording it...
Have you approached Hyperion or Toccata? More importantly, I think, we would need to get a violinist interested in the piece first. I'll put my mind to it. Is there a printed violin/piano score I can send to people?
I have approached both. Inevitably, it's too expensive for Toccata and Hyperion seemed not to be interested. My copy of the violin/piano score is in the possession of a violinist who showed interest in it, but I've heard nothing for ages.
I think we may need to start again.
I reckon CPO might be a good bet.
You're probably right...
Quotewe should probably add Gordon Jacob's orchestration of the Organ Sonata, Op. 28a, too.
Hmmm, I should look for that one. I'm very often frustrated with organ music, as I find that most church acoustics don't give justice to the works. I've always wondered how no one has ever ventured into orchestrations of the Vierne and Widor organ symphonies, for examples....
Quote from: Ebubu on Monday 02 May 2016, 23:50
I've always wondered how no one has ever ventured into orchestrations of the Vierne and Widor organ symphonies, for examples....
Both actually wrote concertante works based on movements from their own solo organ symphonies. FWIW.
Oh, I didn't know that. I'll check into it. Thanks.
I knew Guilmant did... Ah, I see, I see- Widor's op.42 is just such a work as is Vierne's Pièce symphonique. Thanks...
I'm not too thrilled about orchestrations of masterfully done work. Look at the travesty of the Rachmaninoff 5th concerto, for example. On the other hand, one of my favorite listens is Schoenberg's dazzling version of the Brahms G minor Quartet. So maybe this echt-Elgar will be ok. I wish it hadn't been attached to Sea Pictures, though. After Baker/Barbirolli why bother?
Because it too is an arrangement.
How horrible. >:(
Almost as horrible as Rachmaninoff''s "5th Piano Concerto", I should think.
Well, the Rachmaninov was a re-composition as well as an arrangement, wasn't it? That's not true of the Elgar CD (which I'm not defending - just pointing out the differences).
... as long as it's NOT the Elgar Piano Concerto....
I take your point, Alan. But "I hae ma doots..."
I think the Jacob orchestration of the Organ Sonata is magnificent, and I find it more plausible than other orchestrations, since it is known that Elgar wanted to write a symphony at this time, so it gives us some idea what one might have sounded like, especially as it is such a long and expansive work for an Organ Sonata.
Of course, if one wishes to count Elgar symphonies, there's the Symphony in G Minor after Mozart, which he wrote when very young as an exercise. Only part of it survives, admittedly, and I've never heard any.
Hm, I quite like the piano concerto. How much of it is Elgar is another matter.
An arrangement of Sea Pictures? I didn't catch that on looking at the JPC site. Didn't cross my mind. I didn't think it needed to be re-orchestrated. Anyone who wants to take on Elgar as an orchestrator has got some real chutzpah.
I think it might be a choral/orchestral version.
What "needs to" or "doesn't need to" be re-orchestrated or "re-imagined" is hardly the point, I think. Re-shaping other people's works into a different form is an activity with a tradition that goes back centuries, in all the arts. Sometimes, it is just an exercise, part of an attempt to master the craft. But in its best form, it can be an art onto itself. It is hardly ever "necessary", probably, in any objective sense, but it is part of what makes the "classical" music landscape so interesting. So even if I shall hear the adaptation only once, I'm always grateful for having had opportunity to do so.
I don't have any entrenched view one way or the other, and the bottom line is that no one is compelled to buy this CD. Ilja is correct of course, there is a very long tradition of arranging other composers' work; if you browse Hofmeister XIX then you'll see that many of the scores published each month in the 19th century were arrangements. That said, for me it all comes down to whether they work musically, and some certainly do: mention has already been made of Jacob's orchestration of Elgar's Organ Sonata and Schoenberg's of Brahm's Piano Quartet. I'll add a third nominee: Szell's orchestration of Smetana's From My Life String Quartet. I'll hazard a guess, though, that the failures outweigh the successes.
Three great examples, Mark. I'm just hoping for something to excite the jaded palate...
Quote...that the failures outweigh the successes
I just heard some orchestrations of Debussy's works (Orch Works, Vol 6, by Jun Märkl, on Naxos). Some of them (Suite Bergamasque) are pretty appaling.... Orchestration 101 level (if that much)...
I' ve heard that John Adams had orchestrated some Debussy songs (5 Poemes de Baudelaire). THAT should be something else !
I wonder what members think of 'un-orchestrations'- those works that are originally for orchestra but are arranged for small ensembles or solo instruments? I rather like Elgar's short orchestral works arranged for violin & piano, or piano solo, for example.
I think it is interesting to remember in this context that before the invention of recording music such "unorchestrations" were the only way to get to hear the orchestral repertoire outside a concert hall. So piano reductions (often 4 hand) were issued of many orchestral pieces as the closest thing available to a CD (a bit more work involved in "listening" to them).
I really enjoy listening to such reductions every now and then because, by their very nature, their a stylized version of the original. And while they may lack some of the richness of their orchestral counterpart, they're very good for getting the essence of a piece.
Ah, yes, good points! I had quite forgotten the need for versions that could be performed 'domestically', sans orchestra; and I agree entirely about them getting to the heart of the composition. They can certainly reveal aspects that might be lost in a full scale performance.
QuoteQuote from: semloh on Friday 13 May 2016, 12:17
I wonder what members think of 'un-orchestrations'- those works that are originally for orchestra but are arranged for small ensembles or solo instruments? I rather like Elgar's short orchestral works arranged for violin & piano, or piano solo, for example.
You've raised an interesting point on something I've never thought of. Someday I would like to hear Scheherazade performed by a quartet. Just one example
Really? Not for me, I'm afraid. All that wonderful orchestration gone...
I would have agreed had I not listened to the piano eight hands arrangement of Mahler's 2nd Symphony (details and audio extracts here (http://www.melbarecordings.com.au/catalogue/album/mahler-symphony-no-2-resurrection)). Of course, you do lose all the thrilling orchestration, but what you get in return is a sort of added clarity because the work is pared down to its essentials. It doesn't replace the original and neither is it better than it, but you can have both! Of course, I'm not generalising about all such arrangements, but I do think that Heinrich von Bocklet's 1914 arrangement is very effective.
I compare these arrangements to what B/W photos are to color. Without the glaring orchestration you can hear harmonies, counterpoint, form, and other musical concepts perhaps cleaner. And, when driving the roadster, soft orchestral writing is often hard to hear even with the volume cranked up. But especially in piano arrangements that's not a problem.
I have owned the piano 4-hand arrangement of the Raff 5th for 40 years - it's hard to find someone to play it with. I hope that someday some enterprising duo will tackle it and record it. It's an awful lot of fun to play - and it's quite difficult!
Just listening now to the Piano Quintet orchestration. Amazing how much it anticipates the sound-world of the 3rd Symphony; amazing too how much it sounds like echt-Elgar in orchestral mode. This could easily pass for a three-movement Elgar symphony. Hats off to Donald Fraser! Especially for the slow movement, which is simply tremendous in its lyricism and power.
So now we have a five-strong symphonic canon:
No.1 in G major, Op.28 (1895) (Organ Sonata, orch. Gordon Jacob)
No.2 in A flat, Op.55 (1908)
No.3 in E flat, Op.63 (1911)
No.4 in A minor, Op.84 (1919) (Piano Quintet, orch. Donald Fraser)
No.5 in C minor, Op.88 (1933) (elaborated from sketches for No.3 by Anthony Payne)
;)
I was going to pass on this one, but if it's that good...
Oh, it's better than good. It's absolutely brilliant.
I shall hold you to that. Downloading as I type...
Just had another listen. It was better than the first one...
Don't forget "The Black Knight", symphony for chorus and orchestra, (1893). One of the earliest all-sung symphonies around.
I have a score of The Black Knight. It is described on the title page as "Cantata for Chorus and Orchestra", not a symphony. And indeed its structure is in no way symphonic.
According to Wikipedia "Elgar described the work as a 'symphony for chorus and orchestra', though the publishers, Novello, described it as a cantata." I think the publishers were correct...
I didn't know that, Alan. Thank you. And apologies if I sounded sniffy, but The Black Knight really isn't a symphonic work at all.
You were just being accurate...
I have to agree with Alan, the orchestration of the Piano Quintet is a very impressive achievement. Here and there, especially in the third movement, I thought that the textures got rather congested, but that aside it's a minor triumph and evokes the sound world of late Elgar so convincingly. It's years since I've listened to Jacobs' orchestration of the Organ Sonata, but that's next on the list for me now.
Phew. Reputation intact.
Never in doubt, Alan.
At long last I received a copy of these arrangements...and have been completely won over! I love the quintet in it's original form, but having heard this arrangement several times, I don't know if I'd want to be without it. It's a remarkable achievement. It would be stretching the truth to say that it sounds just like Elgar - that's impossible to do, and not a blemish on the arrangement. There are times when the texture sounds like something Elgar would have scored, and at times I even hear the Payne orchestration of the 3rd symphony poking through. And yes, at times maybe it's overscored, but the same can be said of the 1st or 2nd symphonies, too. I love this arrangement. Wouldn't it be nice if orchestras would put aside the ubiquitous Enigma and play this instead? Any skepticism I had about this venture is gone.
Sea Pictures: I miss Elgar's masterly orchestration, but again this arrangement offers performance possibilities. Using a reduced orchestra makes it far more affordable and performable by smaller ensembles, and the use of an entire choir, rather than one soloist, open opportunities for choirs, too.
It's also hugely satisfying to know that there are still people out there who can handle orchestral forces like the old master could. This is a wonderful recording and now we have to get live performances - I assume the orchestral material is available for hire.