I was just musing about possible candidates for that category of music which one might call "Awful, but magnificent!". I have recently acquired a German radio broadcast of August Bungert's Mysterium nach Hiob of 1909. It's an 80 minutes+ monster and it's so awful (dreary declamation, barely anything memorable, etc.) that it is truly magnificent.
Any other candidates (+ reasons, please)?
I would have to put forward Tchaikovsky's 1812 Overture. Tchaikovsky himself knew it was a bad piece. Take away the excitement of the bells and cannons at the end (which is all people go to hear, after all) and you are left with something very unmemorable and third rate. However, those bells and cannons do provide the magnificence I think might qualify.
Surely the 1812 is memorable? But I agree, it's so awful, it's magnificent!
Yes, I agree. What I meant was, without the 'memorable', noisy ending, it would be pretty UNmemorable.
A pity Beethoven's Battle Symphony has no such saving graces. Whatever WAS he thinking?
Oh, look - I seem to have been elevated to TWO yellow squares and lost my 'new' status!
Continuing Alan's giganticism theme, I'm very tempted to nominate Draeseke's Christus for it's sheer size and tedium, but I'll hold off because not only does the only recording weigh it down with what's probably a needlessly turgid performance, I also suspect that it isn't "awful" at all. I just don't understand it.
So, the Thomas nomination goes to Fibich's Hippodamia trilogy - three mighty melodramas each lasting over two hours. The music itself is typical in many ways of Fibich, colourful, vigorous and melodic, albeit in a rather more thoughtful and sober vein than one is used to from him. So, that's the "magnificence". The "awful" is that they are melodramas - people speak all the way through. That's the point! It's like going to the concert from hell where your neighbours chatter (no, declaim!) continually. The ear naturally focusses on the speech, even though you can't understand a word of it. I bought Supraphon's three boxed sets of the trilogy years ago on a trip to Prague and they are amongst the few CDs which I've ever given away, confident that I'd never listen to them again.
Another very memorable piece if you hear it, but which is pretty bad music, is one I've seen mentioned in here in recent weeks - the Third Symphony by Khachaturian. With 15 trumpets and an (hysterically busy) obbligato organ part, it threatens to out-Sinfonietta Janáček's Sinfonietta, but lacks the musical invention or cohesiveness to do so. At least it has a quasi-Onedin Line big tune in the middle.
Another magnificent but dubious work would have to be Shostakovich's Leningrad Symphony. Not alone among the several poor works he wrote, it is surely the most magnificent of them.
In Fibich's defence,and he's dead,so I suppose there's not much point,really,these so called melodrama's are from a long bygone age,a different kind of culture,where people probably had a little more patience,and stamina,maybe,than we do;and were never intended to be listened to in this kind of way. And fair play,I don't expect poor old Fibich, himself,ever anticipated his 'melodramas' being listened to in this manner! Also,three boxed sets?!! What came over you? A rush of blood to the head? Three for the price of one? The local moonshine?! I think it might have been a good idea to 'dip the old toe in the water' with one box,first.
Incidentally,they had a rave review on Musicweb,and the last time I looked,(not recently),they were asking all kinds of ridiculous prices for them on Amazon.
I accept all that you say about melodrama, and I don't criticise Fibich's actual music at all. The trouble is that you can't hear it. Why did I buy all three? Because at the time you could not buy them outside the Czech Republic and it was pre-internet, so it was all or nothing. Thanks (I think) for making me look at the price on Amazon: £197? I gave my copies away - something else that's "awful" about Hippodamia!
Yes,you could buy a couple of cd's with that!
Interesting though,how Fibich's 'talent' for melodrama's put other examples of the genre into perspective. For example,'Enoch Arden' by Richard Strauss.
(The following comment assumes the validity of I. A. Richard's triangular model of communication.)
Are we responding to cases where the music qua notes on a page is considered awful enough to be magnificent, where the realization/performance is awful enough to be magnificent, or where the listener is ignorant/clueless?
I'm recalling a showing of Tarkovsky's "Andrei Rublev" where a sophisticated audience did not know (through no particular fault of its own) how to consume static, nondramatic (or antidramatic) stretches of ritualized visual discourse. All the more problematic in the case of an opera composer like Rimsky-Korsakov when a particular director (not to mention an audience) may not know how (or why!) to present or. especially, to consume stretches of ritualized dramatic discourse as, say, in "Katschei" or "Kitezh."
Please forgive and ignore if I'm taking all this a little too seriously. It's something I care about.
Hi all, my first post.
I'd love to hear more from August Bungert and I'd like to hear that 'Mysterium nach Hiob' sounds interesting!
I downloaded his opus 16 piano for 4 hands piece and playing thru my midi and I really like it.
He left 360 + songs and I'd like to hear all of them transcribed for the piano.
What about this work:
Homerische Welt (Homeric World - other title: Die Odyssee - The Odyssey) opera-tetrology, op. 30, libretto by August Bungert
Part I: Circe, musical tragedy in three acts, op. 30/1, premiered 1898 in the Dresden Court Opera (Hofoper)
Part II: Nausicaa, musical tragedy in three acts, op. 30/2, premiered 1901 in the Dresden Court Opera
Part III: Odysseus' Return, musical tragedy in three acts, op. 30/3, premiered 1896 in the Dresden Court Opera
Part IV: Odysseus' Death, musical tragedy in three acts, op. 30/4, premiered 1903 in the Dresden Court Opera
I wonder who has all his works.....love to get a hold of them.
600 page book on him> http://books.google.com/books?id=XJYYAQAAIAAJ&dq=isbn:379521131X&ei=et1hTL38A5OskATLi9iOAQ&cd=1
The only remark I had heard previously about Bungert ''had'' been rather slighting - that he'd wanted to create a Bayreuth for his own music but that he was, well, not Wagner. But then I know better than to take away any assessment of his music from someone's bon mot - I haven't yet read the Lexicon of Musical Invective, I think, but, erm, I get the general idea.
Eric
Dare I mention the Furtwangler 2nd? It's been discussed to death, and despite Barenboim's recording, it just seems like such mess. And I wouldn't want to be without it...
And then there's the Liszt Dante Symphony...much ado about nothing.
Now in defence of Tchaikosky's "1812". Maybe because I've played it dozens of times, but I never tire of playing it (percussion parts in this case). It has an electrifying effect on players, conductors as well as audiences. Ok, it's no "Eroica" but the work is a remarkable but of composition. It's really ingenious how it's put together, how it's scored. It's no mean feat of compositional skill. As a demonstration of technical skill, it's first-rate. Inspired? Maybe not, but despite what critics and other composers think of it, you know that many of them would have sold their souls to have written it. If a composer had written nothing but 1812, he/she would be immortal. Now I'm not suggesting that popularity equals quality, but 1812 has to have something going for it to have hung on in the repertoire for so long. And it's not because of the artillery either, in fact most performances I gave done eschewed the cannons, the extra brass, a choir and the rest. Long live "1812"!
How about the Scriabin 'Mysterium'. I forget who put it together but it is an endurance.
The Skryabin (yes, I prefer that perverse spelling!) was cobbled together by Alexander Nemtin (1936-99). It is not one of the more successful 'reconstructions' of the last 50 years or so, it has to be said.
'Awful but magnificent' to my ears would be an apt description for all of Bruckner's symphonies. I have occasionally thought that if they were run end to end from 00 to 9, it wouldn't matter if I dozed off as they would be still be going when I woke.
Giles, perhaps the curiosity on the following link will be either your worst nightmare or a mercifully short musical summary of Bruckner symphonies 0-9: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=883982&content=songinfo&songID=8661782 (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=883982&content=songinfo&songID=8661782)
Quote from: Delicious Manager on Wednesday 11 August 2010, 11:57
Giles, perhaps the curiosity on the following link will be either your worst nightmare or a mercifully short musical summary of Bruckner symphonies 0-9: http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=883982&content=songinfo&songID=8661782 (http://www.soundclick.com/bands/default.cfm?bandID=883982&content=songinfo&songID=8661782)
Fantastic! I love Bruckner, but can rarely devote the time necessary to a complete symphony (with so much else to listen to). The incredible thing is that it (more or less) actually works - much like 'reduced Shakespeare': I would put it right up there with Anna Russell's
The Ring of the Nibelungs. Now, how about Draeseke's
Christus? ;)
Such a time saver! Why, if the same was done with the other three movements, we'd have the whole Bruckner symphonic canon over and done with in half an hour...
I've always been curious about Bungert. Partly because of the name (!) & also because I first heard about him through the writings of Havergal Brian.His life story,on it's own, would certainly make a good read. Mind you,the way all these revivals of long forgotten composers are going,we probably will get to hear poor old Bungert's efforts. I just wonder if it will be worth it,or whether we would only really listen to his 'Homerische' trilogy,all the way through, if we had to.....at gunpoint.
One of the problems when people go on about how truly terrible something is......the masochistic urge to hear it for oneself. Like Bernstein's 'Enigma Variations'. Everyone says it's so terrible & such a travesty. But,why? Sooner or later I'm going to have to give in to temptation & buy a copy,just to find out. And if anyone here tells me not to,I'll only want to hear it even more!
I have also heard some one say that the worst piece of music they had ever heard was Lev Knipper's Fourth Symphony,which was hugely successful within the old Soviet Union. In fact,they made it sound so terrible,I really wouldn't mind hearing it. I bet the Soviet leadership thought it was magnificent,even if we think it's awful.
I wonder if some of Bantock's colossal unrecorded works fit into the 'Awful but Magnificent' category. Again,the way things are going we may eventually find out,if the manuscripts are intact.
The Knipper Fourth Symphony is certainly a truly awful piece (maybe we should have a poll of the 10 worst symphonies of all time?) and contributors can judge for themselves here:
1st movt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Ga-mfkJAU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W1Ga-mfkJAU)
2nd movt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmWt51cxnXU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmWt51cxnXU)
3rd movt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-88Oee9nFKE (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-88Oee9nFKE)
4th movt: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KexjqOOebTU (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KexjqOOebTU)
Quote from: Delicious Manager on Wednesday 11 August 2010, 16:42
The Knipper Fourth Symphony is certainly a truly awful piece
Many thanks for the links to Knipper's sublime 4th - I'm listening to it as I type and it's really brightening up my day. I especially warm to the warbly, folksy vocal contributions and the slithery, meandering quasi-fugal entries that pop up like frogs at the fair only to be bopped on the head with an orchestral hammerblow. I simply can't wait for the box set of all 20 from Warner! :D
Now I'm into the fourth movement. Lawks a mussy - dig that crazy xylophone and the forced rosy-cheeked hysteria! God only knows what they're singing about, but who cares when you're having so much state-sponsored fun - just off to goose-step around the garden and then haul a barge up the nearest canal. ;D
The fabled Knipper at last! Hallelujah! And I thought it was just a myth,like Eldorado.
It would make an ideal coupling for the Khatchaturian 3rd. To be fair,they do sing it with some gusto,it's good fun,(but not too often,perhaps),and his use of brass & one or two touches here & there make me think that maybe,just maybe, Knipper might have something tucked away in his output that might be really worth hearing. I am given to understand that he was a bit of a creep,though. I'd buy it though,if it was re-released though,just for the fun of it,and because some of those forgotten & politically incorrect soviet composers do intrigue me. I have some Tikhon Krennikov symphonies,for example,and I hate to say it,but I quite enjoyed them.
Anyone heard Knippers eighth,by the way ? The few reviews I saw were mixed.
Anyway,thanks for the link DM. Bernstein's 'Nimrod' next,please!
You mean this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmC2MB9h5qI#t=1m06s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmC2MB9h5qI#t=1m06s)
I'm grateful for the direction to the Knipper symphony as he's a composer I've been curious about for a while. I doubt any record labels or sellers will be grateful for the link though as, having finally heard some of his music, I've added it to my "don't bother buying" list. It was nice to be reminded what a stirring and lovely melody Polyushka polye is though!
It prompted me to seek out Salmanov on Youtube too, another composer I had been curious about. The deleted Mravinsky set of his symphonies has been on my "watch list" for some time and has also now been removed after hearing the performance of his second on Youtube - pleasant but ultimately pretty thin stuff, I thought.
Quote from: khorovod on Wednesday 11 August 2010, 19:30
I'm grateful for the direction to the Knipper symphony as he's a composer I've been curious about for a while. I doubt any record labels or sellers will be grateful for the link though as, having finally heard some of his music, I've added it to my "don't bother buying" list. It was nice to be reminded what a stirring and lovely melody Polyushka polye is though!
It prompted me to seek out Salmanov on Youtube too, another composer I had been curious about. The deleted Mravinsky set of his symphonies has been on my "watch list" for some time and has also now been removed after hearing the performance of his second on Youtube - pleasant but ultimately pretty thin stuff, I thought.
I have Salmanov 4, which is pretty good.
This is beginning to feel like a resurrection of a recently locked thread.
On another topic, has anyone ever heard of Grachia Spiridonovich Melikian ?
The motivation for this thread was music which tries so hard to say something big and meaningful, but which is just not up to the job - but which attains a kind of perverse magnificence because of its overweening ambition. For me, Bruckner's music actually is sublime, so he doesn't count at all. Bungert's Mysterium is just trying so hard to be grand and significant - but the composer just doesn't have the ability. The huffing and puffing is truly magnificent in its awfulness.
I don't quite get the use of the term 'awful'. People here seem to ENJOY Khachaturian's 3rd (as do I), so even if it's not deep and is kinda silly, how is it 'awful'?
'Awful' here just means 'terrible',' dreadful', i.e. 'very bad'. Thus Bungert's Mysterium couldn't possibly be enjoyed by anyone except a masochist; it tries so hard to be significant that it's magnificent in its awfulness.
Like I,sort of,enjoyed parts of the Knipper.
Does anyone think Khatchaturian's 'Spartacus' fits in this category? The Knipper link,somehow,led me to it. Khatchaturian's scenario is so big and on such a grand scale,yet allot of the music is so kitsch And let's face it the score is desperately uneven,to say the least. Yet,looking at the Bolshoi ballet strutting their stuff,for me,at least, he somehow manages to bring it off. All,all those bare muscular torso's,not to mention the make up,costumes and sets straight out of an old Hollywood biblical epic are just asking for ridicule,('camp',is a good word for it),yet somehow or other that's what makes it so good,in a ridiculous,tacky,portentous kind of way. As an admirer of Khatchaturian's best work,I really do think 'Spartacus' is magnificent in an awful kind of way. (Although,it has to be said that the best bit's of 'Spartacus' are on a higher level of inspiration than Knipper's Fourth).
Mind you,allot of that is due to the skill of the choreographers and the dancers. Indeed,looking at the video's made me realise that Khatchaturian's 'Spartacus' really does need to be seen AND heard,in order to be fully appreciated.
.
Orff's Prometheus. Lots of shouting, roaring, wailing, screaming and ululating in Ancient (not modern) Greek, all around middle C, plus some early electronic effects.
.
Ooh! I'd love to hear that.
FROM THE WRITINGS OF Nicolas slonimsky:
With the spread of musical education in the Soviet Union, the minority republics began to cultivate music of theirown, largely derived from folk songs. In order to stimulate artistic development in these republics, the Union of Soviet Composers assigned their members to write operas and symphonic works based on native folklore.
The Ukrainian composer, Boris Liatoshinsky,wrote an opera Shchors named after and based on the life of a Ukrainian revolutionary commander.
Glière wrote the opera Shakh-Senem on Caucasian themes;
Brusilovsky composed Kyz-Zhybek, derived from the folklore of Kazakhstan;
Shekhter wrote Yusup and Akhmet on Turkmenian motives;
Tchemberdzhi contributed the opera Karlugas on Bashkyrian folklore;
Kozlovsky wrote Ulugbek (Tamerlane's grandson) on Uzbek melodies;
Balasanian wrote a Tadzhik opera, The Song of Wrath;
Frolov composed aBuriat-Mongol opera, Enke Bular Bator;
Paliashvili is the composer of the Georgian opera Abessalom and Eteri.
The harmonic idiom of these operas is in the tradition of Russian orientalism, withextensive pedal points and chromatic leads in the inner voices. Native instruments areused in many of these productions. Visits of native artists in performances of nativemusic at festive occasions in Moscow have further enhanced cultural exchange betweenRussia proper and the peripheral republics.
Shostakovitch spoke of these developments in his address as a delegate at the Cultural and Scientific Conference for World Peace inNew York on March 27, 1949: Today, in the five capitals of the five Soviet Republics in Middle Asia, there are five first-rate theaters of opera and ballet...The national art works performed on the stages of these theaters are eloquent testimony to the fact...that new, peculiarly national branches of international musico- dramatic arts have been created. The Uzbek operas Buran and Leyli and Medjnun provide the greatest pleasure to a listener of any nationality..."
WHAT EXISTS OF ANY OF THIS NOW?
Well the overture Gliere's opera was recorded, at least.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Wednesday 11 August 2010, 22:19
'Awful' here just means 'terrible',' dreadful', i.e. 'very bad'. Thus Bungert's Mysterium couldn't possibly be enjoyed by anyone except a masochist; it tries so hard to be significant that it's magnificent in its awfulness.
I've listened to it a few times at the computer while doing work. It's rather well-orchestrated at least.
Quote from: swanekj on Thursday 02 August 2012, 19:33
I've listened to it a few times at the computer while doing work. It's rather well-orchestrated at least.
Reminds me of the occasion when one of the staff at Harold Moore's played me a new piece for my opinion. After about 15 minutes of listening to this inoffensive but unmemorable piece, my only conclusion was that "it's orchestration not composition".
However, returning to the subject at hand, does anyone remember
Todd Levin's 1995 album De Luxe (http://www.amazon.com/Deluxe-Todd-Levin/dp/B000001GP2) on Deutsche Grammophon? I tripped over it in the (Kenny Everett- administered) archives of my collection recently.
Quote from: swanekj on Thursday 02 August 2012, 19:33
Bungert's Mysterium...I've listened to it a few times at the computer while doing work. It's rather well-orchestrated at least.
I hear the bottom of a barrel being scraped...
When you refer to your
Quote from: MikeW on Friday 03 August 2012, 12:30
Kenny Everett- administered archives
does that mean that this album is in the 'best
possible taste' category?
Quotedoes anyone remember Todd Levin's 1995 album De Luxe on Deutsche Grammophon?
Yes! Fun at times, in a guilty pleasure sort of way.
Interesting.. I don't recall having ever heard anything else by him since that album. Has he thrown in the towel or will no one record his music? ;)
Quote from: Latvian on Friday 03 August 2012, 13:06
Quotedoes anyone remember Todd Levin's 1995 album De Luxe on Deutsche Grammophon?
Yes! Fun at times, in a guilty pleasure sort of way.
Interesting.. I don't recall having ever heard anything else by him since that album. Has he thrown in the towel or will no one record his music? ;)
It's a bit like a live version of the Avalanches doing "Frontier Psychiatrist".
He seems to have gone back to his day job at Sotheby's, or at least to being a NYC-based "art consultant".
Quote from: Lionel Harrsion on Friday 03 August 2012, 12:59
When you refer to your Quote from: MikeW on Friday 03 August 2012, 12:30
Kenny Everett- administered archives
does that mean that this album is in the 'best possible taste' category?
Possibly, I'll send Samantha down to ask the archivists.
Oh don't tempt me... :-X
Re : Furtwangler 2 : get the live 1953 performance conducted by the composer on Orfeo CD. It makes sense (musical) in a way that none of the other recordings does. As souped-up Brahms one could do a lot worse, and the orchestration is excellent.
Candidates : Tippett : The Mask Of Time and New Year. The problem with these works is that they are not only awful but deeply pretentious, so probably miss out on the accolade "magnificent".
More magnificent though no less awful : Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony.
Truly, awfully, madly, deeply awful with no redeeming magnificence whatsoever : any work by Richard Nanes (CDs and Vinyl turn up on eBay and Amazon occasionally).
Earlier candidates : Most of the larger works of Josef Holbrooke and Granville Bantock. The problem is that until about 1960 many works simply never got recorded and sank into total oblivion. There are probably hidden treasures of ghastliness out there!
The magnificently awful Nichifor fourth symphony which appeared on an Olympia disc called Romanian Concert. It's somewhere in that awkward musical space between Bernstein and Stalling that didn't need to be filled.
I did like its coupling, the Four Tablatures for Lute by Toduta.
Could "Nichifor" be a euphemism for "Almendar Karamanov"?
It's possible. I gather his full alleged name is Şerban Nichifor (born 1954) whereas Karamanov's dates were 1934-2007, I haven't heard either of them (from what you imply, I'd say both of them are pseudonyms of... I stop now to prevent a libel suit)
The Gothic-awful ???? Magnificent,yes, but awful :o?
As in "full of awe", yes. :)
Well put, Mark ;)!
Quote from: MikeW on Monday 06 August 2012, 21:12
The magnificently awful Nichifor fourth symphony which appeared on an Olympia disc called Romanian Concert. It's somewhere in that awkward musical space between Bernstein and Stalling that didn't need to be filled.
I did like its coupling, the Four Tablatures for Lute by Toduta.
Part of the Nichifor 3 at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42cKg031Rns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42cKg031Rns)
The entirety of the 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqqwG8CQm3k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqqwG8CQm3k)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qQoySPKVOQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qQoySPKVOQ) and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkWzlqIVyRw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkWzlqIVyRw)
Wow.
I suspect I may catch a little flak for this, but: Paderewski's symphony. Lovely stuff...if only he had excised about twenty minutes of it, if not more. Also, August Söderman's Mass - I want it to be so much more than it ends up being.
Quote from: MikeW on Monday 06 August 2012, 21:12that awkward musical space between Bernstein and Stalling that didn't need to be filled
This is now one of my favorite capsule reviews. Right up there with the self-produced rap track described by an acquaintance thus: "It's like a party in my ears, and somebody spiked the punch."
QuoteEarlier candidates : Most of the larger works of Josef Holbrooke and Granville Bantock.
Do you actually
know most of the larger works of Josef Holbrooke?
I agree with Gareth. You couldn't possibly dismiss the larger works of Holbrooke and Bantock as awful after hearing them. They are magnificent, though!
So presumably you know the larger works of Holbrooke and Bantock? On what do you base your view that they are magnificent?
Quote from: swanekj on Friday 10 August 2012, 20:00
Part of the Nichifor 3 at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42cKg031Rns (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=42cKg031Rns)
The entirety of the 5: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqqwG8CQm3k (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZqqwG8CQm3k)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qQoySPKVOQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6qQoySPKVOQ) and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkWzlqIVyRw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkWzlqIVyRw)
It's self-inflicted I realise but now I've become aware of Nichifor's Youtube channel (http://www.youtube.com/user/serbannichifor?feature=watch), and thus of
Dracula's Souvenir. I'm now going to self-trepanate until it all goes away.
Quote from: swanekj on Friday 10 August 2012, 20:00
Wow.
Fixed.
Quote from: Acutamusicelgar on Monday 06 August 2012, 18:17
Re : Furtwangler 2 : get the live 1953 performance conducted by the composer on Orfeo CD. It makes sense (musical) in a way that none of the other recordings does. As souped-up Brahms one could do a lot worse, and the orchestration is excellent.
Candidates : Tippett : The Mask Of Time and New Year. The problem with these works is that they are not only awful but deeply pretentious, so probably miss out on the accolade "magnificent".
More magnificent though no less awful : Havergal Brian's Gothic Symphony.
Truly, awfully, madly, deeply awful with no redeeming magnificence whatsoever : any work by Richard Nanes (CDs and Vinyl turn up on eBay and Amazon occasionally).
Earlier candidates : Most of the larger works of Josef Holbrooke and Granville Bantock. The problem is that until about 1960 many works simply never got recorded and sank into total oblivion. There are probably hidden treasures of ghastliness out there!
If you think the 1st is bad...try the bombastic and banal 4th..
The ghost of old Frye must be doing back-flips of joy: Bruckner, Khachaturian, Tchaikovsky, Scriabin all called to the carpet, and not one disparaging word about his Santa Claus Symphony.
Who wudda thunk?
Are we speaking of William Henry Fry, no extra "e"? The material seems to me entirely appropriate to a piece about Santa Claus. Now the sections of the 'Christmas Symphony' that were reused in Fry's opera Notre Dame of Paris may or may not be worthy of Victor Hugo. (Personally I think they are...)
David
I've got Fry's Santa Claus Symphony and would never imagine he'd ever feature as Composer of the Weak!
OK guys, it isn't April 1st according to my calendar. And yes, Fry WITHOUT the "e".
Interesting how vastly different opinions can be. I found an amazon review of a CD of Knipper's 4th paired with Gliere's "The Red Poppy." The sole reviewer gave it 5 stars and stated "Knipper is one of the best composers of the Stalin time."
Interesting...
Quote from: Paul Barasi on Thursday 27 June 2013, 21:51
I've got Fry's Santa Claus Symphony and would never imagine he'd ever feature as Composer of the Weak!
Fry's a hugely interesting and original composer - if you think Santa Claus is odd, try the Niagara Symphony. Let's not forget that he was something of a pioneer with a very limited musical education.
To me, 'awful magnificence' is best in a work that combines pretentiousness with the Peter principle - biting off more than one can chew. A good candidate would also be Peter Benoit's 'Scheldt River oratorio': http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1biA0u-WVw8 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1biA0u-WVw8). Benoit's written some wonderful pieces, but this is a wonderful example of a composition perenially threatening to cave under its own weight.
At the risk of being excommunicated, I would say that Mahler's Eighth goes off some way in that direction, too.
Quote from: Ilja on Saturday 29 June 2013, 10:16
At the risk of being excommunicated, I would say that Mahler's Eighth goes off some way in that direction, too.
Sharp intake of breath! Consider yourself duly disciplined for such heresy... ;)
Sorry guys, but Fry (minus the E) wins the cupcake. Anyone who has the audacity to have Santa Claus more or less interacting with Angels in a serious composition, has... ummm... considerable doctrinal issues, to say the least. Not to say that I don't like the piece as a bit of harmless kitsch, but when I read "awful/magnificent" Fry (minus the E) and his very Franklin Pierce-ish mug popped into my head. I'd love to hear one of his stage works - as long as there are no dramatic scenes between Savonarola, and Huckleberry Hound...
Mahler's 8th? Carmen Miranda!
erm, which one of these four does not fit? Santa Claus, Angels, Savoranola, and Huckleberry Hound? The last, which has nothing to do with a particular (group of) religion(s)... (well, the third was never to my knowledge raised as a saint- not that this would wholly surprise me, but not to my knowledge, anyway.)
(Santa Claus at least can be related to Saint Nicholas... yes, I know about the pagan origins of the tradition- as I am not in any way religious, that was not my concern. Even though I suspect (and should check...) that Fry's treatment was of both the giver of gifts and the messengers, I mean angels, was more saccharine (before the fact of saccharine- sugared, then) than their roots might allow. (For a treatment of an angel in music, give me Suk's Asrael any time...)
I'm not entirely convinced that Fry actually set out to compose a 'doctrinal' work but to pull off a bit of Christmas fun. (How does Mahler 2 score on heresy with its no sinners–no judgement message?) [What are we going to do next: Awful but Magnificat?]
Oh, I expect you're quite right. I worry a little at too readily taken freedom with conceptual networks that even in generality (leaving out the cartoon details- and I am a cartoon fan) are (still) probably relatively recent in some ways. (Let's see- Fry was composing 1813-64...) Dickens' A Christmas Carol / Cricket on the Hearth and other Christmas stories and their worlds might be a better partial reference-point - I haven't read them yet unfortunately (or not in awhile?), though I plan to soon.
Hee! (... too suite, simply.)
Try Havergil Brian's Symphony no 4 ."Das Siegeslied". Pretentious,lengthy, grandiose, banal, bombastic but marvelous to some..
The same applies to The convoluted and epic Gothic, No. 1 but to a lesser degree..
And please forgive me...I like Mahler, but please - Mahler 8 Symphony of 1000...400-500 is about all the pain I can bear.
Quote from: eschiss1 on Sunday 30 June 2013, 17:27
erm, which one of these four does not fit? Santa Claus, Angels, Savoranola, and Huckleberry Hound? The last, which has nothing to do with a particular (group of) religion(s)... (well, the third was never to my knowledge raised as a saint- not that this would wholly surprise me, but not to my knowledge, anyway.)
(Santa Claus at least can be related to Saint Nicholas... yes, I know about the pagan origins of the tradition- as I am not in any way religious, that was not my concern. Even though I suspect (and should check...) that Fry's treatment was of both the giver of gifts and the messengers, I mean angels, was more saccharine (before the fact of saccharine- sugared, then) than their roots might allow. (For a treatment of an angel in music, give me Suk's Asrael any time...)
There is a very active Huckleberry Hound cult on the western coast of Baffin Island, hence my reference to the cobalt canine. As for Savonarola... well, sainthood is - to this Protestant - in the aye of the beholder. Aye? But I digress...
The Niagra Symphony (again by Fry - minus the E) somehow meanders between awful/magnificent without particularly achieving either. Rather like one of those jerry-built pieces by Czerny for eighty four pianos and orchestra that looks very unreasonable on paper, but is something you'd love to tell your grandchildren that you had sat through.
All that said, you've got to admire the man's audacity. I suppose if he were living today he's be writing descriptive symphonies concerning the ice volcanism on Triton.
interesting. rather like those cargo cults and such, though those at least make sense to me. (any sufficiently simple magic will seem like technology, and all that.)
JollyRoger- re Das Siegeslied- heard you and disagreed with you the first time you mentioned it (and the second time also :) ), but this forum isn't the place to discuss it. (Likewise the Gothic.)
sorry to pete and repeat...old age is catching up with me!!
Oh, I sympathize (and though I find the works of his late years remarkably diverse, and though I did not know him, I expect perhaps so would have the composer, too.)
There's a trivia thread for one, at that : oldest-known (verified, at least general age, not exact) Romantic-era (not style... era)-or-earlier - flourishing period 1915-ish-or-before... composers) which might -- well... or might not -- make an interesting separate thread... (later on one has several centenarians, e.g. Carter, Ornstein - at least. But earlier? Hrm.)
Before jumping frying Fry for his "bourgeois" St Nicolas Symphony..
Take note of this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Nicolas_(Britten)