On its way:
https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7352 (https://www.duttonvocalion.co.uk/proddetail.php?prod=CDLX7352)
This is really exciting. Ina Boyle's music is very fine IMHO.
Yes, indeed. I trust that it falls into our Romantic remit?
Well, I think there was an upload of her violin concerto here awhile back and the work can be heard on YT here (https://youtu.be/zKRAta9V22w) (17 min?)...
A movement from the symphony. (https://youtu.be/LSatusiXwAQ)
For those who are interested in hearing more, the complete Symphony No. 1 "Glencree" is available on the BBC for a few days, as it has been broadcast on March 8:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09th2dr
As well as her 1934 Overture:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b09th2dd
On YouTube, there is also her orchestral rhapsody The Magic Harp, as well as her sketch for small orchestra The Wild Geese, although played by a non-professional orchestra concerning this last work.
P.-S. Yes, the fine Violin Concerto lasts 17 minutes in all, since Ina Boyle seems to always compose concise works...
QuoteYes, indeed. I trust that it falls into our Romantic remit?
You bet it does!
What a charming concerto - almost like a dream.
Totally agree! ;)
So this and an Elgar rarities disc they are releasing seem to have 'SACD bonus tracks'. Does this mean they will only be on the SACD layer and not the CD layer? Kinda annoying since both of these CDs look very tasty.
This certainly applies to the Ina Boyle CD, which has an extra 8:50 of music in SACD format only (a piece called 'Colin Clout'). Very annoying. I hope Dutton won't be repeating this egregious error of judgment.
1921 Colin Clout Pastoral for orchestra: 2332/4030/timp/hp/str
from
http://www.inaboyle.org/compositions/ (http://www.inaboyle.org/compositions/)
named after a poem poss by Burns I believe, or a folk tune??
...doesn't matter: I can't play it!
Thanks for the info, Eric!
QuoteThis certainly applies to the Ina Boyle CD, which has an extra 8:50 of music in SACD format only (a piece called 'Colin Clout'). Very annoying. I hope Dutton won't be repeating this egregious error of judgment.
I wholeheartedly agree, Alan, as someone else who also can't play (or digitise) that final track. Is a complaint to Dutton in order?
Very much so, I would think.
I have just complained via the Dutton website. It might help if others did the same. Go to the page for the Boyle CD and complete the form marked "Ask a question about this CD".
Thanks Gareth, will do!!
Quotenamed after a poem poss by Burns I believe, or a folk tune??
It's a poem by Edmund Spenser actually, Eric - "Colin Clouts Come Home Againe".
I have complained too.
It would have been nice of them to, say, put a link in the book of the disc so that one can DL it. I've seen it done elsewhere.
I have had the most frightfully high-handed (and border-line rude) response to my complaint to Dutton. How has anyone else fared?
So have I. I give it below, followed by my response:
Hello,
Thank you for your e-mail. However, the bonus track (no. 19) on the Ina Boyle disc is clearly billed as an "SACD bonus track," which indicates that that is exactly what it is - a bonus track that will play only on SACD (as opposed to standard) CD players.
The maximum running time of a standard (PCM) CD is 79m 57, whereas on an SACD it's up to 110 minutes - hence the inclusion in this case of the extra track on the SACD layer, which otherwise wouldn't have appeared had this been a standard PCM CD.
While we very much appreciate your support of and interest in our releases, we had hoped that you would have welcomed the inclusion of additional SACD material (at no extra cost) rather than bemoaning the fact that it can't be played on a standard CD player, despite its "SACD bonus track" billing.
Kind regards,
Oliver.
Vocalion Ltd/Dutton Epoch Retail & Export Team
Dear Oliver,
Thank you for your response. You suggest that I should be grateful for the, for me, unplayable bonus track and not "bemoan" its inclusion. Relatively few listeners have SACD players - none of my acquaintance - so there is no advantage to us at all in having a track which we can't play! Nor in knowing that there is an additional work by this interesting and neglected composer on the CD which we can't hear! It is of no consequence that it is "at no extra cost" since it is something I cannot enjoy, without purchasing an SACD player, so I wouldn't expect to be charged for it.
Had you provided a link from which the track could have been downloaded in, say, MP3 format, that would, indeed, have been a valuable bonus, for which I would have been extremely grateful.
Your response does nothing to mitigate my pique, and I sincerely hope Dutton will discontinue this practice in future - unless, as I suggest above, a link to an MP3 download is provided for those of us who cannot play SACD tracks.
Yours sorrowfully,
Gareth Vaughan
It says very little for their Customer Relations Dept. I think the pressure should be kept up.
Well, he sent me exactly the same response, right down to the egregious use of the word "bemoan". I agree wholeheartedly with your response, Gareth, both in its content and the very tactful and professional way it is expressed.
Their customer service certainly does seem very lacking - I wonder if a phone call to Mike Dutton would be of any avail?
You can try, but I expect you will only get through to the offensive Oliver. We need as many of us as possible to write and keep writing until we get a satisfactory response. I hope Alan has written. He is not a man to put up with such treatment without protest.
This is the reply I have received from 'Oliver' (whoever he is):
Hello,
Thank you for your e-mail. However, the bonus track (no. 19) on the Ina Boyle disc is clearly billed as an "SACD bonus track," which indicates that that is exactly what it is - a bonus track that will play only on SACD (as opposed to standard) CD players.
The maximum running time of a standard (PCM) CD is 79m 57, whereas on an SACD it's up to 110 minutes - hence the inclusion in this case of the extra track on the SACD layer, which otherwise wouldn't have appeared had this been a standard PCM CD.
While we very much appreciate your support of and interest in our releases, we had hoped that you would have welcomed the inclusion of additional SACD material (at no extra cost) rather than bemoaning the fact that it can't be played on a standard CD player, despite its "SACD bonus track" billing.
Kind regards,
Oliver.
Vocalion Ltd/Dutton Epoch Retail & Export Team
To which I have replied:
Hello Oliver,
Thanks for your reply; however, you have completely missed the point, for these reasons:
1. The rear inlay says: 'This Hybrid CD can be played on any standard CD player'. This is clearly FALSE.
2. While it is perfectly in order to include a 'SACD bonus track' (as per the rear inlay), what it should read is: 'SACD-ONLY bonus track'.
Frankly, I find your reply irrelevant to my concerns as a consumer. I shall think twice before buying Dutton products in future.
So, my question is: why is the CD in question inaccurately described on the rear inlay?
Yours sincerely,
Alan Howe
Having received the same email from Offensive Oliver as Alan and Gareth, here is my response, for what it is worth:
Dear Oliver,
Your reply to my email sets out very clearly why you feel Dutton were justified in taking the approach they did with the so-called 'bonus track' on this new CD. An approach with which I whole heartedly disagree. I am fully aware of the technical constraints imposed on the amount of music on a CD, but you make no mention of there being any possibility to offer this track as a download (either free or for purchase), despite me raising this question.
However, what I find most egregious, and frankly insulting, is your high-handed, autocratic and disrespectful tone throughout this reply. A reply which I note you have sent verbatim to at least two others who raised an issue over the same matter, all of which betokens a signal lack of regard for a (hitherto at least) loyal customer base, and one on which I would have though you would want to be able to rely in these challenging economic times.
I will think long and hard before making any further purchases from your label.
Yours,
Jeremy Holmes
A few more in that vein might make them wake their ideas up.
Why don't CD Producers use 90 Minute CDs? I use Philips 90 Minute CDRs for works up to that length which might otherwise be split over two standard CDs and am quite satisfied with the results.
I hope this new Dutton practice isn't viral!
In any case, I have a CD bought in the 1980s and part of a Berlioz box set which has a running time of 82 minutes, so Oliver's statement about the maximum running time of CDs is clearly incorrect.
There must be a reason why 90 minute CDs are not used commercially, but it may not be a very convincing one of course!
Not clearly incorrect, actually. 82-plus minute CDs have indeed been produced for as long as you say of course- other examples include some 1-CD Bruckner releases :)...- but at least at first (still?) would not play on all audio CD players. (Even 80 was pushing it with some, but that's probably not true now.)
I wasn't aware that there was (had been) a problem with 80+ minute CDs. OK, I stand corrected.
My info is 2nd-4th hand, so I shouldn't insist on it.
For those who have heard Boyle's Pastoral, does it rate all this letter writing or is it just a matter of principle? :)
Not to pile on, but.....
I recently placed a substantial order with a large French distributor of classical music, but one of the cd's I received was defective, the last 4-5 tracks didn't play. (I tried in 4 different players). I wrote the company and apprised them, they wrote back immediately and told me they were sending me another copy - I was favorably impressed, and I told them so. But when the second copy arrived, it had the identical problem, so I wrote back again, suggesting the obvious possibility of a larger batch problem, rather than just my 2 specific discs. Here is their response, in its entirety:
Hello,
We are sorry to read that the second copy has the same problem.
We are afraid indeed that the problem occurs on the whole series and we can not do anything about it...
We remain at your disposal for any further information.
Sincerely,
Customer Service
Seems to me any company which sells a defective product has 3 options - fix the item, replace it, or refund the buyer's money. Since options 1 & 2 were impossible, I wrote them back and said that, "gosh, I've racked my brain, and I think I know something you could do about it." (I said it without the snark). After a bit of back and forth, they refunded the money, but certainly not willingly. Worse yet, the item is still available on their site for sale, so one might well wonder. I understand that a distributor can only distribute what material it is given, but if they are correct in their assumption that the "problem occurs on the whole series", one would think that leaving it on sale is highly questionable. (On the one in a million chance that someone reading this is thinking of buying the Acte Prealable Julian Fontana piano music vol. 1 cd.....well, caveat emptor)
2) Concurrently, I placed a large-ish order with a German company, which included about 8-9 cd's, one of which was a pre-order. When I received nothing for nearly a month, my inquiry produced the response that they were waiting (another) 6 weeks until the one pre-order disc was available, and then would send all together. I protested but was told there was nothing that could be done. So I went online, cancelled the pre-order disc from my larger order, and requested the others to be sent to me immediately. When advised they had been sent, I went back online and pre-ordered the last album again. It makes sense for them to want to save on postage, but to hold up a substantial order for a very long period of time, and to refuse to even entertain the possibility that the secondary postage could be otherwise handled, well....
These are isolated incidents of course, and we are all grateful that all stops along the way of the classical cd pipeline eventually do provide us with the products we crave. However, as has been noted by others, for an industry that frequently (and rightly) worries about the size of its clientele base, all these stories suggest that a little too often they make poor decisions regarding accommodating the customers they do have.
Quote from: eschiss1 on Monday 16 April 2018, 23:56
My info is 2nd-4th hand, so I shouldn't insist on it.
For those who have heard Boyle's Pastoral, does it rate all this letter writing or is it just a matter of principle? :)
It might not be so bad if there were a way to play SACDs on a computer, or at least rip them -- as far as I know you need an OG Playstation 3 (and maybe even hack it) to do it.
And I too certainly have plenty of 80+ minute CDs, including one that lasts 82:27....in fact I think BIS released one over 85(!).
And there's also the Elgar disc I mentioned which also has it.
I for one won't buy a disc that has music I can't play. Not unless they offer the extra for download, at least.
No reply from Oliver to my response to his email. I wonder if I will get one. Has anyone else who wrote back received a reply - satisfactory or otherwise?
Not yet...... ::)
No reply yet either...
Eric: this is a matter of principle - and possibly misselling (nearly misspelling too!)
I'm not holding my breath.
Don't worry: I'll be following this up with a stiff phone call if there's no reply within another 24 hours.
Have you had the 'pleasure' of speaking to Offensive Oliver before, Alan?
Nope, but he won't get the better of me...
..and it would help if others did the same thing. May I suggest that the most effective line of attack would be to question the accuracy of the details on the rear inlay, i.e:
1. The rear inlay says: 'This Hybrid CD can be played on any standard CD player'. This is clearly FALSE.
2. While it is perfectly in order to include a 'SACD bonus track' (as per the rear inlay), what it should read is: 'SACD-ONLY bonus track' (so that customers know that the track in question cannot be played on a standard CD player).
It could also be pointed out that the vast majority of SACDs produced these days can be played on any standard CD player!
Quote from: Alan Howe on Tuesday 17 April 2018, 22:10
It could also be pointed out that the vast majority of SACDs produced these days can be played on any standard CD player!
I haven't heard of any non-hybrid SACDs in many many years. And even then it was those BIS releases that had a few hours of CD-quality audio rather than high resolution audio.
A fair number of single layer SACDs still appear regularly in Japan, though I only buy hybrids for fear that SACD players will cease being made. As for the viable playing time of a regular CD, my experience over the decades has been that the ones with over 73 minutes are a little more likely to have tracking problems, especially near the end of the last selection. In fact, I threw a Dutton CD (Julius Harrison, "Bredon Hill") in the trash last week after discovering the sound vanished when it got 30 seconds from the end of the program, and the disc only contained 68'26" of music. Also, I can't help but wonder if there may be differences between a regular CD and the hybrid layer on a SACD that might shorten the reliable space on the latter.
I guess I can sympathize with your frustrations at not being able to play the "bonus" track, but I'm trying to imagine what the discussion on this will be like in the comments on HRAudio.net when this disc is listed there. I suspect some will praise it as a factor that might even help SACDs stay on the market a bit longer, and others as a reward for those who've stayed the course with the format.
Then, there is the matter that SACDs are more expensive to produce. Besides what the technical production involves, I believe there is a fee that must be paid to Sony or somebody for using the format & logo. While I agree that making the bonus track available as a download for folks without SACD capability would be a nice thing to do, I can also imagine that a specialist label like Dutton has a relatively small profit margin compared to a lot of other labels and could be justified in not doing so. As far as I know, their website doesn't have sample clips for any of their releases, so how likely are they to want to set themselves up with one more technical thing to look after just for the odd bonus track.
At any rate, I've already ordered the Boyle disc. Those who want to boycott it can probably rest assured that we'll be seeing more releases of her music before long on other labels like Chandos, Hyperion and Naxos.
Quotehttp://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/May/Boyle_orchestral_CDLX7352.htm
A glowing review from the ever loquacious Rob Barnett on musicweb. He seems to have had no difficulty playing the (ahem) 'bonus track', or am I misreading?
No idea, but the chances are he's got the equipment to do so. Anyway, I have written again to Dutton, so I'm hoping to get some sort of reply. If not, the screw will be tightened...
Thanks Alan, keep us posted!
Quote from: Savoir_Faire on Tuesday 01 May 2018, 07:17
Quotehttp://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/May/Boyle_orchestral_CDLX7352.htm
A glowing review from the ever loquacious Rob Barnett on musicweb. He seems to have had no difficulty playing the (ahem) 'bonus track', or am I misreading?
He's updated the review saying he can't listen to it and thought the last track of the rest of the program was it.
Aha! I thought there was something strange. An entirely useless track from the point of view of most reviewers then. Might as well not have been recorded since it is accessible to such a minuscule number of music lovers.
Trouble is, the review is still wrong; Rob writes:
In case you have any anxiety about the circa 84-minute playing time my experience was that I had no difficulty playing this disc on a conventional CD player: no blips or stutters.
In fact the length (playable on a conventional CD player) here is 75:32; the final 8:50 is the SACD track!! So, of course there should be no problem playing the first 18 tracks!!
(http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-yCLf8Ctafrs/T7643gYitiI/AAAAAAAAAMg/RvpBUhjiuFA/s1600/stupid_head.jpg)
Yes, I noticed that.
And now, appended to the review:
Note from Dutton
In response to the above review's comment about the Colin Clout piece not being playable, Dutton Epoch would like to point out that this is not the case.
This is an SACD dual-layer release, and Colin Clout has been included as an additional extra on the SACD layer, hence it's billing as an "SACD bonus track." This also explains the disc's almost 84-minute playing time: the maximum playing time of a standard PCM CD is 79m 57s (the Red Book standard) whereas an SACD's is up to 110 minutes. The only way that Colin Clout could be included was to place it on the SACD layer, otherwise it would have had to be omitted – it simply wouldn't have fitted on the standard PCM CD layer. Putting this disc in an SACD player – or any machine capable of playing SACDs – will allow the Colin Clout track to be heard.
...which is ridiculous, since the vast majority of people DON'T HAVE SACD-CAPABLE MACHINES AND SO CAN'T PLAY IT!
In addition, the CD is advertised as a 'Hybrid' which 'can be played on any standard CD player'. IT ISN'T! It has one non-hybrid track! WHICH WE CAN'T PLAY! Not one of my three CD players can play it - and nor can my PC!
GRRRRRRRRRRRR! >:( >:( >:( >:( >:(
Exactly so. Dutton are being disingenuous. They have produced a CD which contains a track that cannot be played by the vast majority of their customers and are touting it as a generous bonus. A bonus is something you receive. Since, as I say, the vast majority of customers cannot receive it, it is a bonus only for a very small number of listeners with specialized equipment. Dutton should do the decent thing and make it available as a free download. THAT would be a bonus. This is an object lesson in how NOT to do things commercially, how to alienate your customers and waste the time of musicians.
QuoteThis is an SACD dual-layer release, and Colin Clout has been included as an additional extra on the SACD layer, hence it's billing as an "SACD bonus track."
To say nothing of misused apostrophes... sigh.
I would not expect the egregious Oliver, from whom I have no doubt this message emanated, to know much about apostrophes. He is not concerned with customer service so why should a little matter of correct punctuation worry him?!
This SACD, which has a red book 'normal' CD layer too, goes on for 86'16; so the extra track on the Boyle CD could have been easily included on a normal CD http://bis.se/conductors/vanska-osmo/mahler-symphony-no6
Exactly - and I believe this point has been made on another forum too.