Unsung Composers

The Music => Recordings & Broadcasts => Topic started by: Alan Howe on Thursday 12 April 2018, 22:26

Title: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 12 April 2018, 22:26
...on one CD, under Swedish conductor Ola Rudner, forthcoming from cpo:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/giovanni-sgambati-symphonien-nr-1-2/hnum/7971899 (https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/giovanni-sgambati-symphonien-nr-1-2/hnum/7971899)
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: jdperdrix on Friday 13 April 2018, 08:51
I suppose this is the same version that was uploaded by Hadrianus.
I, personally find his interpretation of the second symphony too massive. I tend to prefer the lighter (and more Italian?) version by Attardi available from magazine Amadeus.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: rosflute on Friday 13 April 2018, 10:14
Interesting, jdperdrix that you prefer what you call the ' Italian' quality. Attardi's version very closely resembled both La Vecchia's interpretation [in February 2014] and my own original 'recording' created by my computer in 2006 and issued as a virtual CD.
Sgambati was a great fan of Wagner's music, as well as other German composers including Schumann, Beethoven and Brahms [as well as Liszt, of course] and is strongly influenced by them. So what is required by Sgambati's music is a perfect blend of German Late Romanticism [what I suspect you call 'massive'] together with the lyricism of Italian melody, and so, in this respect, Rudner comes much closer to finding the correct balance [I would quibble over his interpretation of the semi staccato in the introduction of the first movement, but his audacious speeds for the faster movements would, I think,  be appreciated by Sgambati, the virtuoso pianist!]. Perhaps you will enjoy Rudner's interpretation better on another meeting.
Incidentally, I have written the sleeve notes for the CD.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Alan Howe on Friday 13 April 2018, 13:05
I prefer Rudner myself. And I'm glad to see that the sleevenotes are in expert hands!
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: adriano on Friday 13 April 2018, 16:20
Great that this will be released! I also prefer Rudner!
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: rosflute on Sunday 15 April 2018, 09:29
Thank you Alan! Rather a lot of sleeve notes - I managed to 'reduce' to about 5000 words, so I'm not sure if they'll print all !
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Alan Howe on Sunday 15 April 2018, 13:06
Nevertheless, you're the right person for the job!
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Sunday 15 April 2018, 13:43
Does the Epitalamio sinfonico count as a "3rd" symphony or is it more of an extended symphonic poem?
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Alan Howe on Sunday 15 April 2018, 14:29
I've always thought of it as Sgambati's 3rd, but perhaps Roz can enlighten us?
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Alan Howe on Sunday 15 April 2018, 18:01
This article (in Italian)...
http://www.flaminioonline.it/Guide/Sgambati/Sgambati-EpitalamioSG47.html (http://www.flaminioonline.it/Guide/Sgambati/Sgambati-EpitalamioSG47.html)
...says: 'L'ultima composizione sinfonica di Sgambati รจ la sinfonia Epitalamio', in other words it calls the work a symphony, but not No.3. Maybe the situation is akin to Tchaikovsky in respect of Manfred which isn't numbered either (it would be his 5th, coming after No.4)?
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: adriano on Monday 16 April 2018, 05:09
Thanks Alan, for quoting this article. I am glad to read that the composer did not write this piece for an occasion, but out of a purely artistic need :-). Apparently it is also a non-descriptive/programmatic piece (in spite of having his movements entitled), so let's be curious about it and wait for a recording! So, since the composer wanted to try something new and nearer to a symphonic suite, he was perfectly right not to call it his "3rd Symphony".
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: alberto on Monday 16 April 2018, 10:52
Again about the article on "Epitalamio Sinfonico" by Francesco Attardi (on www.flaminioonline.it)
the Author points out that the work was not composed straight for a Royal Court occasion, BUT a last  movement or piece named "Corteo" was added in the perspective of the first performance which took place at a Italian Royal Family wedding.
The Epitalamio is cast in three parts (In church, In garden, At court (all with sub-movements) and Maestro Attardi describes it as a symphonic suite.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Monday 16 April 2018, 11:53
I for one would love to hear it.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Mark Thomas on Monday 16 April 2018, 12:12
Oh yes, me too. The article doesn't give an idea of the work's length. Anyone have an idea?
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: adriano on Monday 16 April 2018, 13:41
That's more or less what I have just written, Alberto... :-)
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: eschiss1 on Monday 16 April 2018, 14:36
A (negative) review in the May 23 1891 Atheneum is also not helpful in this regard (note that the reviewer wished that the 2nd symphony, so far unheard in England, had been programmed instead- it doesn't seem that any bias on the author's part against Sgambati was the cause. But in any case the duration is hard to ascertain.)
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: rosflute on Monday 16 April 2018, 15:12
I have a copy of the score of the Epitalamio and started making a new edition several years ago. However, I put it to one side, partly on account of other works occupying my time, and partly due to, what I felt at the time, weaknesses in the manner of the orchestration. I'll get around to doing more to it one day, however!
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Alan Howe on Monday 16 April 2018, 17:43
I'm sure we'd all like to encourage you in that enterprise, Roz - but I imagine it's a big job.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 24 May 2018, 22:15
Excerpts are now available at jpc. Two terrific symphonies, by the way; anyone buying this and, say, the two Martucci symphonies on BIS is going to have a very different view of Italian symphonism than has been represented in the text books...
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: adriano on Friday 25 May 2018, 18:21
My cpo CD is on the way already. As far as Martucci is concerned, please don't understimate that pioneering complete orchestral works set conducted by my late friend Francesco D'Avalos! It was re-released by Brilliant Classics years ago.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Alan Howe on Friday 25 May 2018, 18:40
No, they're excellent, of course. And very cheap as re-issued by Brilliant some while back (unfortunately deleted).
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Friday 25 May 2018, 19:44
How do you rate the Naxos recordings of Martucci's orchestral works with the Orchestra Sinfonica di Roma under Francesco La Vecchia?
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Alan Howe on Friday 25 May 2018, 20:17
Rather stolid by comparison - and the strings sound a bit thin. Perfectly fine, of course, if nothing else were available.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Friday 25 May 2018, 21:11
Thank you very much.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: semloh on Friday 25 May 2018, 23:43
Thanks for the interesting exchanges here - we are fortunate in having such erudite and informed contributors at UC.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Alan Howe on Saturday 26 May 2018, 10:06
D'Avalos is superb. There are used copies of his CDs available (i.e. the original ASV releases).
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: adriano on Saturday 26 May 2018, 10:23
 :)
I just listened to the new cpo Sgambati CD - it took 3 years to have it issued!
Wonderfully conducted and played. I am a great admirer of Ola Rudner.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: hyperdanny on Saturday 26 May 2018, 11:35
Sgambati was such an amazing discovery..here in Italy hardly anyone is aware of this "lost generation" of instrumental composers..when the Verdi Orchestra here in Milan programmed the 2nd I did not really know what to expect..and I have been hooked ever since.
I am very much looking forward to having this new cd, especially on sonic grounds  ...the Attardi concert here in Milan was recorded, alas, a little too much roughly by Amadeus.
I am very curious about a different ( a little more "Germanic", it seems) approach to the 2nd might work...I suspect very well: the Attardi is very good, but could have been driven a little harder.
I am less sure sure about the 1st, where La Vecchia's echt-Italianate way works wonders for me,I find it just right.
But we'll see , Rudner is a very good conductor.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: adriano on Saturday 26 May 2018, 11:43
Sgambati was, incidentally, Elsa Respighi's piano teacher  :)
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Alan Howe on Saturday 26 May 2018, 18:38
The cpo performance of No.1 is a good bit crisper and more athletic than La Vecchia on Naxos:

                        I              II            III           IV           V            TT
Rudner:          9:30         9:55        5:24        6:42       6:56       38:30
La Vecchia:   10:29        11:11        5:47        7:47       7:49       43:03
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Alan Howe on Saturday 26 May 2018, 22:28
There's no doubt in my mind that Sgambati 1 and 2 are major symphonic statements worthy of admission to the standard repertoire. There's nothing really like them - they're that individual. And memorable? I'll say!

This new cpo CD is an award-worthy contribution to the promotion of Sgambati as a composer to be reckoned with.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: hyperdanny on Sunday 27 May 2018, 13:49
these are the timings of the Attardi 2nd..maybe somebody who already has the CPO cd could kindly provide comparison?.....

                        I              II            III           IV             TT
Rudner:         

Attardi          10:49         8:05         8:36       10:16       37:46
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Ilja on Sunday 27 May 2018, 15:57
From my radio dub of the Rudner, which is presumably the same one on the CD, I get this:


                        I              II            III           IV             TT
Rudner:        12:01        7:46         11:03     10:06       40:52

Attardi          10:49         8:05         8:36       10:16       37:46

Quite different tempi, then.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: adriano on Sunday 27 May 2018, 16:41
Rudner's  durations on the cpo CD:

1st Symphony:
9:30 - 9:55 - 5:24 - 6:42 - 6:56  TT 38:30
2nd Symphony:
12:00 - 7:46 - 11:04 - 10:09  TT: 41:00

Just for the documentation - and not for an artistic comparison!

Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Alan Howe on Sunday 27 May 2018, 17:42
By the way, on the CD the brass in No.2 - horns in particular - make much more of an impact than on the radio dub. A case of successful subsequent re-mixing, I assume.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Holger on Sunday 27 May 2018, 17:54
Just as a footnote (I don't have the disc yet - it will be part of my monthly jpc order next week alongside the Lachner and van der Pals discs): I have a good deal of Naxos discs with La Vecchia conducting (most of this is repertoire outside this forum's interests), and his recordings are typically rather slow, often slower than any other recording of the same works available. Therefore, I am not astonished about the five minutes difference between his recording and Ola Rudner's new version.

I bought the Naxos recording when it came out years ago, and I remember this symphony as a powerful and very interesting work. I am looking forward to Ola Rudner's new recording which will no doubt be fine. Years ago when I was still at school we had to do a two week work experience of our choice. I did that at the Nordwestdeutsche Philharmonie. By chance, Rudner was the conductor of the concerts they were preparing, so that I had the chance to attend the rehearsals and concerts. That was really a great experience.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Alan Howe on Sunday 27 May 2018, 20:21
Rudner will, I am sure, be the standard recommendation for both symphonies for the foreseeable future - unless there's a sudden spurt of interest from other conductors and labels.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: hyperdanny on Sunday 27 May 2018, 23:20
thanks for the timings..even if of course minutes and seconds are only part of the story, it's nonetheless interesting and enticing that they are quite markedly different..both this and the Lachner are going to be in my June order..
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: adriano on Monday 28 May 2018, 20:58
You are right, Holger, about maestro La Vecchia. Unfortunately his promising projects on Brilliant (and on Naxos) came to an end since the Orchestra Sinfonica di Roma had to be closed down in 2014 due to lack of funds, so it became only 12 years old. That's why the Brilliant box of "Respighi, complete orchestral works" is a misleading title, since there are some least 15 works missing!
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: eschiss1 on Thursday 31 May 2018, 04:34
incidentally though apples/oranges, the piano duet performance on Tactus takes the 4th movement serenade rather fast at 5:25, the first movement is 11 min. (repeat?)...
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: hyperdanny on Saturday 07 July 2018, 10:46
Finally I found the time for a proper listening, and it's a stunning disc.
While in the 1st I still have a slight preference for La Vecchia's more measured tempi and Naxos's more immediate sound (but it's such a nice luxury to have an alternative high-quality vision og this reperteoire!), instead the 2nd is a revelation.
Rudner's cogent, perfectly formed, epic traversal IMHO supports this work's claim to "standard repertoire" quality standards.
It makes seem the Attardi like a run-through, which of course in some ways is what it was, being the work a relative novelty-rediscovery at the time.
Even the Reutlingen orchestra, that in a couple occasions didn't overly impress, seems inspired by the music.
So, apologies to my "home orchestra", but for the Sgambati 2nd there's a new reference.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: rosflute on Saturday 07 July 2018, 16:01
I would like to correct Hyperdanny's comment, based on Attardi's misinformation, that Attardi's performance was an absolute novelty-rediscovery at the time. This is not true. As Attardi knew very well, the second symphony had previously received two performances more than a year before his. Those first performances were in Rome in February 2014 performed by the Rome orchestra conducted by La Vecchia. I was present at those 2 performances, for which I also supplied the orchestral parts and score. [That orchestral set and score mysteriously went missing shortly after the Rome orchestra's collapse at the end of 2014]. Attardi's score and performance didn't appear until September 2015. Furthermore since 2006, I had been selling a virtual performance of the second symphony on CD, which had received a review in Classical Music magazine.
At my own expense, in the three years from 2003 - 2006, I made several trips to Rome where I spent a total of more than six weeks of long days in the Casanatense library, labouriously copying out the notes of the symphony from the hand written orchestral parts. I published the First Edition of the second symphony in 2006, supplying copies to the British Library and Biblioteca Casanatense. Then, in 2011, I published a second revised edition. So it hurts when someone else tries to take credit for my work.  :'(
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: hyperdanny on Monday 09 July 2018, 16:39
I corrected my post and I apologize for the incorrect and misleading comment: I was not aware of any of that backstory.
I only would add that I have the utmost respect and admiration for rosflute's efforts and , since I like really very much La Vecchia's 1st, it's doubly a loss that Naxos did not release the 2nd.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: rosflute on Wednesday 11 July 2018, 08:26
No problem, Hyperdanny, and no need for you to apologise. But thanks, anyway.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Alan Howe on Tuesday 07 August 2018, 22:16
Here's a properly appreciative review:
http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Aug/Sgambati_sys_5551952.htm (http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2018/Aug/Sgambati_sys_5551952.htm)
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Revilod on Wednesday 08 August 2018, 07:52
I don't know these symphonies yet but am surprised to read that Rob Barnett believes that Sgambati's symphonies "considerably outstripped" Liszt's symphonies? Liszt wasn't primarily a symphonist but his "Faust" Symphony is amongst the finest and certainly most original 19th century symphonies. Do Sgambati's symphonies really outstrip it?


Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 08 August 2018, 08:45
How can one make a valid comparison? Rob must have been carried away by his enthusiasm. Sgambati's symphonies are fine works, but they're absolute music, whereas the Faust Symphony is programme music, its three movements a linked series of symphonic portraits. It's a masterful composition and I'm sure that Sgambati himself would never have felt that he'd outstripped it.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 08 August 2018, 09:54
No, the comparison's a poor one. What is important to recognise, though, is that Sgambati's sound-world is recognisably in the progressive camp - down to the Siegfried-style horn whoops in the finale of No.2!
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Kevin on Friday 04 October 2019, 09:24
I was blown away by these performances and the works themselves. Very individual, sounding like no one else. Superb Tchaikovsky-like orchestration too. Check out his requiem which is also very appealing.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: adriano on Saturday 05 October 2019, 07:35
Not to speak about his Piano Concerto (coupled with two Overtures on the Tactus label) and his Piano Quintets and String Quartets (On Brilliant Classics)!
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Kevin on Saturday 05 October 2019, 07:37
I will look into them, thanks!
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: adriano on Saturday 12 October 2019, 09:56
Jorge Bolet, who plays the Sgambati Concerto on that old Genesis LP (reprocessed later on CD) is much better - and virtuoso-like - than Francesco Caramiello on Tactus. Alas, in both recordings the Nuremberg Orchestra is accompanying on a not too high satisfactory level... I've just listened to them both. The orchestral instruments' parts are, at times, rather demanding.
Title: Re: Sgambati Symphonies 1 & 2
Post by: Kevin on Saturday 12 October 2019, 10:14
I appreciate you taking the time to sample them, I think I'll just stick to his Piano Quintets and quartets for now.