Unsung Composers

The Music => Recordings & Broadcasts => Topic started by: Ilja on Monday 01 October 2018, 10:07

Title: Surplus CDs
Post by: Ilja on Monday 01 October 2018, 10:07
Hi, I'm not sure this fits better in this forum or the other, but I'm sure Alan will be able to transplant is should it be necessary.


The (first world) problem is this: I have quite a few CDs, most of them with works by the "unsung". Nowadays, I try to purchase only downloads as I play all my music using a computer, and never had much love for CDs as objects to begin with. However, every now and then I come up against releases that are not available digitally, or only after an interval (CPO and Acte Préalable, for instance) and I'm forced to buy another disc, which I immediately rip and then put in the attic.


Therefore: is there any institution you know of who would be interested in receiving thes CDs? I'd really be glad to be rid of them, but I'm obviously not going to throw them away or bring them to a thrift show (which would amount to the same thing). But I'd like to offer them to someone or something that can give them a purpose - they cost me enough.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: TerraEpon on Monday 01 October 2018, 13:22
Well, technically it's piracy if you no longer posses the CD but still keep around the digital files. Just something to consider depending on your feelings on that.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Mark Thomas on Monday 01 October 2018, 13:26
Doesn't that depend on the legal jurisdiction? I've no idea, though, how the law applies in the Netherlands. That said, I think the key is the word "technically". Practically it doesn't matter, surely? As to institutions which might welcome CD collections, the answer used to be public libraries, but in the UK they don't want to know nowadays.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Monday 01 October 2018, 13:38
There is no law against ripping a CD to your own hard drive (or cloud storage) if it is for your own private consumption. Nor is there any law against giving away one's CDs, irrespective of whether you have copied them or not (in any case, who is to know?). It might be illegal if Ilja were to sell his unwanted CDs having copied them - but, again, who is to know what he has done with their content privately?
The really important question is how can Ilja put them to best use, rather than throwing them away. Public libraries may not want them but the music department libraries of universities (those with flourishing music depts.) may be grateful for them, or music colleges: the RCM or Guildhall School of Music & Drama, perhaps.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Santo Neuenwelt on Monday 01 October 2018, 18:03
Although we have a large library of chamber music CDs, we are always interested in obtaining chamber music CDs of the unsungs. If you have a list, we would be interested to see it with a view to obtaining some...
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: matesic on Monday 01 October 2018, 20:26
Pretty soon the oceans will be stiff with discarded CDs. I'm in the midst of ripping all mine - 1200 down and a similar number to follow, very largely mainstream material. I'm not sure what charity shops do with all the junk CDs that seem to hang around for months or years but quality classical discs still seem to disappear from their shelves quite quickly so that's where mine will be going.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Mark Thomas on Monday 01 October 2018, 21:52
QuoteI'm in the midst of ripping all mine
Me too - I've got as far as K. I've yet to decide what to do with them once the job's done, but I'll probably give UC members "first dibs" before I think about what to do with those that remain.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Alan Howe on Monday 01 October 2018, 22:17
I simply don't have the time to rip them all, so my collection will continue to grow...
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Monday 01 October 2018, 23:13
I'm in the same boat, Alan.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: kolaboy on Monday 01 October 2018, 23:20
Having in the last three months experienced the death of two external hard drives I can say I'm glad to have kept all my cds - and vinyl albums as well. Ultimately, this virtual existence doesn't seem to exist.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Mark Thomas on Tuesday 02 October 2018, 07:33
Double backups, one off-site, are the answer.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Ilja on Tuesday 02 October 2018, 07:33
Between the two backups, the cloud, and Spotify, I don't worry too much about that (and if real digital armageddon bursts loose I have other things to worry about than the question whether I can find Herzogenberg's 2nd Symphony, I suppose).


Santo, could you DM me your email address? Although the bulk of it is orchestral, I'll gladly donate the chamber music CDs to you.


I had tried the local library of course, but they weren't interested. To be fair, there is a fairly extensive national inter-library system for CDs that covers almost everything under the sun, so I can understand why they were reluctant. But I hadn't considered the conservatories, and I'll send them an e-mail.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: matesic on Tuesday 02 October 2018, 08:21
It appears there are recycling centres that accept CDs. As a very last ditch, art works
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Hector on Tuesday 02 October 2018, 10:05
You could list them on this site and see if anyone wants any of them? Might involve a lot of posting & not sure if folk can pay you for postage without Piracy whoo haa. Anyway, just a thought.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: matesic on Tuesday 02 October 2018, 10:47
Surely the law can't prohibit a person from selling their own property, even if they have already copied its content (legitimately)?
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Tuesday 02 October 2018, 12:09
Absolutely right, matesic. And, as I said before, even if it were illegal how would anybody know? In any case you could not enforce such a law and governments should not pass laws that cannot be enforced: it brings the legislature into disrepute.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Christopher on Tuesday 02 October 2018, 14:09
I've just advertised at a local music conservatory for a student who would be prepared to rip my 1300 CDs for me as I just do not have the time.  I specified that they will need to be highly familiar with itunes and must meet the way I like to label things (which is very particular!). And I have said that they are welcome to keep copies of the tracks for themselves if they wish.  Anyway I have had 18 "applications" so far! I might then ask said local conservatory if they would be interested in having the 1300 CDs for their library. I do also want that space back!
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: matesic on Tuesday 02 October 2018, 15:37
The main inconvenience for me is that I can't settle down for a nap!
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: eschiss1 on Tuesday 02 October 2018, 23:17
afaik, you are not allowed to make a copy of a recording before selling in the US. Purchasing gives you some rights but not others.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 01:02
How do you enforce that law? If I buy a CD, copy it to a hard drive or a cloud, then sell it on secondhand, who is to know that I copied its content? It would be virtually impossible to prove an offence had been committed - which makes an ass of the law.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: eschiss1 on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 01:34
Not disagreeing. Probably enforced on people who admit to it.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 07:11
Why would anyone admit to it?
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: matesic on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 07:34
Sorry Eric, I don't buy it (!) - say you bought a new CD, copied it legitimately and then how ever many years later have to apologise: "I can't sell you that CD because I once made a copy" which might well have gone down with a hard drive? Surely no government would make a law that daft? No enforcement agency would think it worthwhile enforcing, even if the perpetrator tuned up at the police station to confess!
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 07:45
I imagine that in most jurisdictions it's an issue covered by civil law(i.e. copyright holder bringing a case for copy infringement), rather than criminal (i.e. police-enforced) law. In any event, we've spent enough time on this side issue. Can we move on, please? Any more suggestions for Ilja on finding a safe home for his CD collection?
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: matesic on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 10:41
I don't think it's a side issue at all! If Eric is right Ilya wouldn't be able to sell his CD collection in the US.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 11:18
Well, matesic, I know we are in agreement on this issue, but Mark is right to draw it to close now because, if I understand correctly, Ilja is not wanting to sell his CDs anyway, but to donate them to an institution where they will be used and enjoyed, so the topic is what is the best place to receive Ilja's generous gift. I'm thinking that the Fleisher Collection at the Free Library of Philadelphia might be interested.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 11:18
Thanks Gareth. Point taken, Matesic, but it would be good to get something definitive about the legal situation in various jurisdictions, such as the EU and the US, rather than mere speculation. For instance I came across this (http://www.lifewire.com/how-to-copy-and-rip-cds-2438418), which I believe sets out the very restrictive legal position in the USA. It appears that the only legal digital copying you can do there is making a backup copy of a CD you own. The implication is that if you dispose of the CD, you destroy the digital backup. There is more on the legality of making digital copies in this Wikipedia article (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ripping), which includes country-specific information.

All that said, it's pretty clear that this in an issue where most authorities turn a blind eye to the practice because it is so widespread and policing is virtually unenforceable.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: matesic on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 13:04
Good to have got that sorted out, all nice and clear (one last post and I'll shut up). If it's illegal to rip a CD and give it to your friends, isn't it also illegal to give it to an institution?
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 13:15
That certainly seems to be so, but only if you retain the digital copy. However, I repeat, it's not illegal in itself to sell or give away CDs. It may be that no one is enforcing the rule about destroying the digital copy but, as the son of a police officer, I can only parrot Francis Urquart's famous phrase from the original UK House of Cards "You might very well think that, I couldn't possibly comment".
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: TerraEpon on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 13:29
My original comment was less about getting away with anything or anything being enforced, and more to just consider that it is, in fact, considered piracy. I honestly am boggled why people think it's fine to buy something, copy it, and get rid of it (even if it's a donation and not being sold) buy just downloading a copy without buying it isn't ok. Either way, the big issue is one copy has been sold but yet two (or more) people have the music from that one sale.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 14:19
Ah yes, well... morally you have a point, and I would enjoy exploring this further, but here is not the place.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Ilja on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 16:44
Still, people, any non-legal suggestions would be most welcome.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 17:41
Well, I have suggested the Free Library of Philadelphia and the music colleges.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 18:36
How does one get them there, though? And in what - a removal van?
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 19:19
Depends how many there are, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: matesic on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 19:41
A bit hypothetical, isn't it? I strongly suspect librarians are thinking along the same lines as we are - that CDs are on the way out. Think also of the work and the space. To have a few thousand of them suddenly arrive on the doorstep would evoke more of a sinking feeling than a cork-popping celebration.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 03 October 2018, 21:28
I agree. I can't see any institution wanting them. I mean, where would they put them? In any case, I suspect they're all using streaming services by now.

I used to give CDs to a relative of my wife who is Head of Music at a well-known UK grammar school. He told me years ago that they stream all the recorded music they need.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Mark Thomas on Thursday 04 October 2018, 07:50
My assumption is that, when I've finished ripping all my CDs sometime next year, anyone who would like any of the original CDs can have them (only on loan of course ;)), but the remainder (and it'll be the overwhelming majority I'm sure) will go to the local dump. At one level it's a huge waste, but I'll be exchanging five cabinets full of CDs, taking up two walls of a room, for instant access to the music all over the house, housed in an unobtrusive box not much larger than a hefty paperback. Booklets? I seldom read them more than once and much of the information is online now anyway. If I was thinking like my son's generation I'd be able to discard the whole "ownership" thing altogether and rely totally on streaming services, but I'm not happy with going that far, especially as quite a few of the older or more obscure recordings aren't available to stream online.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: matesic on Thursday 04 October 2018, 08:14
Mark and Ilja - do check out your local recycling services. There's a place in SE London that seems to accept CDs but most local centres probably don't. In the past I've dumped a lot of vinyl but now I'm a reformed character.

The media player in my TV is pretty well organized so I'm looking forward to being able to play all my CDs (through external amplifier and speakers) without leaving the armchair.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Jonathan on Thursday 04 October 2018, 10:28
Slightly off topic, for which I apologise.  Talking about ripping CDs etc, I've been trying to set up a server using an old desktop computer at home but my computer knowledge is insufficient and I am on the verge of abandoning the idea.  Does anyone have any suggestions as to a useful resource that might be able to help me?

On topic - my CD collection continues to grow, albeit very much more slowly than it used to.  None of my family are interested to the degree that I am so I have decided to leave it to a music society when I die.  Ok, hopefully that won't be for a very long time but maybe it's a possible solution?

Also on topic, I moved almost all of my CDs into folders last year and went from having 4 assorted CD holders around the house to 1 plus a smart bookcase we had made specifically for the purpose.  They look very smart and I know where everything is so can easily access it.  If anyone want's to know where I got them from, please PM me.  Also, if anyone want's rid of CDs I'm happy to have them!
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Mark Thomas on Thursday 04 October 2018, 12:22
Quotedo check out your local recycling services
Our local recycling centre used to accept CDs in the book bins intended for charity shops, but no more. I guess that the charity shops can't shift them either. The jewel cases, booklets and paper inserts are all recyclable of course, ironically it's only the CDs themselves which aren't.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Christopher on Thursday 04 October 2018, 19:07
We use hanging CDs as bird-scarers in the fruit cage!   Also, our local dump now has a shop attached where people drop and buy all sorts of things - CDs, vinyl, books... four-poster beds...!  They call them Revive and Re-Use shops, proceeds support local charities. http://www.sitasurrey.co.uk/what-we-do/community-recycling-centres/re-use (http://www.sitasurrey.co.uk/what-we-do/community-recycling-centres/re-use)
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Friday 05 October 2018, 00:16
Take care. In the old vinyl era people turned unwanted LPs into flower pots by heating and bending them. Some of those old LPs are now worth a fair bit of cash. Who is to say the same may not happen to CDs. I don't know. Just a thought.
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: kolaboy on Friday 05 October 2018, 01:12
Exactly. I have folks all the time asking me where I acquired my "record playing machine", and others wistfully speaking of all the albums that they "threw away" at the height of the cd craze.  And ah, those old Candide lp covers do display so very nicely...
Title: Re: Surplus CDs
Post by: matesic on Friday 05 October 2018, 08:16
A couple of years ago I had a local dealer take away about 1500 vinyl LPs. He was intensely interested in the rock section of 100 or so but had no use for the classical that hardly anyone collects. It was part of the deal that if he wanted the former he'd have to accept the latter too. He gave me £250 and that was a major chunk of my young adulthood, gone!