What do these composers have in common? Sibelius, Rimsky-Korsakov, Liszt, Amy Beach and.....probably (it's not known for certain) Raff. Googling not allowed!
They all wrote what we consider to be "romantic" music?
They were all alcoholics?
hrm... what instruments did Sibelius and Rimsky play? I don't know if all of them were conductors (Sibelius did some and Liszt did quite a lot, I think so did Rimsky but I'm not sure of Beach...)
Eric
Sibelius was a violinist. Beach and Liszt pianists. RK not much of a performer at all. They were all straight? I was thinking they all came to America, but Raff didn't, don't know about Liszt. Beach and Sibelius heard music as colors, but Liszt? RK? No, that was Scriabin.They all wrote their first symphony at an advanced age? Nope. They liked schnapps? Liverwurst? THEY SPOKE GERMAN! (probably not RK). I don't know.
Quote from: mbhaub on Friday 01 October 2010, 05:00
Sibelius was a violinist. Beach and Liszt pianists. RK not much of a performer at all. They were all straight? I was thinking they all came to America, but Raff didn't, don't know about Liszt. Beach and Sibelius heard music as colors, but Liszt? RK? No, that was Scriabin.They all wrote their first symphony at an advanced age? Nope. They liked schnapps? Liverwurst? THEY SPOKE GERMAN! (probably not RK). I don't know.
As far I know an effort was made by Barnum to get Liszt to America but failed. I know of no other more successful efforts.
Beach, Sibelius (shall we count Kullervo? yes, I think so...) and Liszt's first symphonies are from reasonably early (and R-K's especially so) in their careers (definitely likewise Raff and that wouldn't explain the important "not known for certain" since when Raff wrote his lost first symphony may not be known exactly, but it's earlier than his surviving published 'first') - so I would discard that guess, yep :)
Eric :)
I'd hardly say Liszt's first symphony was 'reasonably early' (yes I looked it up) -- both of his were 1857, he was born in 1811 and wrote MANY works before those symphonies.
I'm guessing it's that they all wrote an opera that was never performed in the composer's lifetime...
...(edit: Though now that I look, Liszt's one finished opera was, apparently, performed, even though it was lost for a while)
I don't recall Sibelius ever composed an opera. Certainly it would have been performed by now. I don't think that's it.
Quote from: JimL on Friday 01 October 2010, 07:32
I don't recall Sibelius ever composed an opera. Certainly it would have been performed by now. I don't think that's it.
He did, and it has been, performed and recorded. The Maiden in the Tower, a very early work. Liszt did also, Don Sanche, a collaboration of sorts I believe with Paer.
Quote from: TerraEpon on Friday 01 October 2010, 06:53
I'd hardly say Liszt's first symphony was 'reasonably early' (yes I looked it up) -- both of his were 1857, he was born in 1811 and wrote MANY works before those symphonies.
I'm guessing it's that they all wrote an opera that was never performed in the composer's lifetime...
...(edit: Though now that I look, Liszt's one finished opera was, apparently, performed, even though it was lost for a while)
Good point re the Liszt and Dante symphonies. His initial plans toward the Revolutionary Symphony of 1848 produced a good tone poem but not a symphony; it's since often been so. Hrm, actually, the Faust and Dante symphonies, like many Liszt works, have several versions, so 1857 seems a bit too "pat" a date-Faust was premiered in 1857 (September 5 1857, Weimar, for the Unveiling of the Goethe-Schiller Monument) but may have a revision history something like
(finished in, not begun in) "1854; revised 1857–61, 1880" (1854 doesn't have the final chorus suggested by v. Bulow)
while the Dante symphony was composed something along the lines of 1855-6, but also, yes premiered in 1857 (7 November 1857, in Dresden. 1857 apparently also saw the premieres of the 2nd piano concerto and
Die Ideale, and the last version of Ce qu'on entend.)
Eric
They were all synesthetes (spelling?), that is they all saw colors when hearing music or sounds. I believe Messaien, Ligeti and Ravel were as well. And contemporary composer Michael Torke is one, that's why he has all the color references in his piece names.
There's a fascinating book on the subject called "The Man Who Tasted Shapes". (It comes in other forms than seeing colors when hearing sounds, although I think all the composers here had the color/sound variety). Oliver Sacks has several chapters about it in his book Musicophilia which I also recommend.
Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_synesthesia) seems to have the answer, as you say John.
Yes, they were all synesthetes. I hadn't been aware that Raff may have been one. That's what prompted me to post.
I've tried on and off for several years to track down the source of the quote which has Raff talking about associating colours with the sounds of various instruments. In the first instance it comes from an 1892 US medical journal, quoting Raff from 1855, but without giving the source. I assume, but only assume, that it's from a letter Raff wrote, maybe to Liszt or to Hans von Bülow. His correspondence to both of them was published after his death in 1882. I've not been able to find the original unfortunately.
Now if Smetena or Tchakovsky had replaced Rimsky-Korsakov the similarity would've been that they had all written
Shakespeare inspired pieces.
Amy Beach: Three Shakespeare Songs
Raff: Shakespeare Overtures
Sibelius: The Tempest
Liszt: Hamlet
Smetena: Richard III
Tchaikovsky: Romeo & Juliet, Hamlet, Tempest, etc...
For the life of me I can't think of a single Shakespeare inspired work by Rimsky-Korsakov, which seems quite strange (unless you include The Tale of Tsar Saltan which is based on Pushkin's poem which was based somewhat on Winter's Tale)
Hang on, I've never read anywhere* that Liszt suffered from synaesthesia? Can someone point me in the direction of a reference?
Many thanks...
* and I must have read just about every book in English about him as he is my favourite composer
Quote from: John Hudock on Friday 01 October 2010, 18:21
For the life of me I can't think of a single Shakespeare inspired work by Rimsky-Korsakov, which seems quite strange (unless you include The Tale of Tsar Saltan which is based on Pushkin's poem which was based somewhat on Winter's Tale)
Nope, nothing Shakespeare unless in his songs.
As for Sibelius, well I wouldn't really call incidental music "inspired by" (he also wrote a couple of songs for 12th night)
I do like a nice puzzle or quiz.
My question and i bet my 2nd favourite banjo that nobody will answer is:
What composer studied with Joachim & Rheinberger and also conducted the Black Dike Mills Band?
Thal
Liszt, Jonathan, is listed as a synesthete on wikipedia and a convincing anecdote, with a reference, about how he asked the Weimar orchestra to play according to colours is given.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_people_with_synesthesia#Franz_Liszt
"When Liszt first began as Kapellmeister in Weimar (1842), it astonished the orchestra that he said: 'O please, gentlemen, a little bluer, if you please! This tone type requires it!' Or: 'That is a deep violet, please, depend on it! Not so rose!' First the orchestra believed Liszt just joked; more later they got accustomed to the fact that the great musician seemed to see colors there, where there were only tones."
– Anonymous, as quoted in Friedrich Mahling, p. 230
Well, lookie here:
http://home.comcast.net/~sean.day/syn-composers.htm (http://home.comcast.net/~sean.day/syn-composers.htm)
Who knew?
At least one or two such Liszt quotes are in Walker though as I recall he draws different conclusions from them.
Thanks for that everyone - just goes to prove I can't remember everything I've ever read ;)
Scriabin a pseudo-synesthete? He is one of the most famous examples of a genuine synesthete there is! He actually attempted to invent an instrument that displayed colors when it was played for the premiere of one of his final symphonies (Ecstasy?) I forget the name of the thing, but it wasn't built.
A Clavier à lumières wasn't it?
Quote from: JimL on Saturday 02 October 2010, 22:28
Scriabin a pseudo-synesthete? He is one of the most famous examples of a genuine synesthete there is!
You misunderstand, Jim. According to Wikipedia synesthetes are...
<<famous people who have, or had, the neurological condition synesthesia. Following that, there is a list of people who are often wrongly believed to have had synesthesia because they used it as a device in their art, poetry or music (referred to as pseudo-synesthetes).>>
Scriabin comes in the second category.
I have to wonder whether Sibelius's seeing colours in music might have been linked to his profuse consumption of alcohol (smacks wrist for being flippant!)?