Franz Lachner's 2nd & 4th symphonies are available in manuscript form on the Internet at IMSLP & at a German web site whose name escapes me*. I have tried downloading and printing off some movements for No 4, but, with my poor eyesight these days, I find them extremely hard to read and have given up attempting to copy them into Sibelius score writing software. Around 20 years ago, when my eyesight was a lot better, I managed to copy the whole of Spohr's 2nd symphony from a manuscript facsimile into Noteworthy software 7, more recently, I copied Lachner's 6th and 3rd symphonies from printed originals into Sbelius(including that huge boob I made on the metronome marking of the slow movement of the latter!). However,now well into my 89th year, I feel I can no longer attempt such a task. Therefore, If any member of this forum who has any of the score writing softwares such as Finale, Sibelius,or Notion or even the much less expensive Noteworthy, which I used for a good number of yeas before I could afford anything more expensive, and if wish to give us some new unheard music from Franz Lachner,could please volunteer to have a go at it? Remember, once you've got your score into any one othese softwares, you can not only hear a rough a ready version of the music but writing out the individual instrumental parts becomes a doddle. I was able to do that with Noteworthy to get the orchestral parts for my own 2nd symphony for a private performance back in 2002.
Anyone who wishes to take on above challenge will have my full support, as much as
I can give.
Cheers
John
*Try Munchener Digitalisierungzentrum or MDZ,
Good to hear from you, John. Let's hope someone might respond...
I have always been very enthusiastic about these sort of projects.
Some time past, I helped create some movements of Moszkowski Dm Symphony's audio recording, which was then completed and uploaded on youtube by another member here. In that project, I started with Noteworthy, but later used Musescore for the most part. For a long time, Musescore was my go-to software thanks to its surprising versatility and free cost. Lately, I took the plunge and bought Dorico, which indeed has been total bliss. Such a great software to work with, compared to the disgusting interfaces of Finale and Sibelius...
At the moment, I'm just about finalizing editing Ernest Pingoud's third Piano concerto (for a publisher) - besides which I've almost completed creating Dorico audio performances of Pingoud's "Cor ardens" and "La derniere aventure de Pierrot" (these I'll put up on youtube when they are ready). This is, to say, I'm a little busy at the moment... :)
I couldn't promise any quick progress or anything, but I would love to take a look at these symphonies of Lachner. I take it there are no manuscript parts available, only the full partituras...?
Boy, looking at the manuscript of the fourth, this would be a monumental undertaking. If there could be a guarantee of at least a reading, preferably a performance, it might be worth the task. But the work involved would be formidable.
Thank you, gentlemen, for your kind replies
Tpalloj in particular. You seem to be even busier than I was in my"prime" around 20 years back. As far as I know, there are no sets of parts available for these symphonies. What you said about Dorico interests me. Am I right in assuming that this is the software created by the whole Sibelius team when they were taken on by that German firm whose name eludes me after their dismissal by the American owner of Sibelius in favour of cheaper labour from eastern Europe? That's why I've never updated my Sibelius beyond version 7. I gather its easier to use than Sibelius which I find much easier than Finale.
Getting back to those Lachner symphonies. My usual rate of working copying from the printed page is around 1hour per page. That, of course, would add up to about 200 hours for a 200 page symphony.. However, I find the hand written version of the 4th Symphony so difficult to decipher, that the first page took me several hours;so I doubt very much that I could copy out the completescre in what little is left of my lifetime! Hence my plea for help.
Cheers,
John
(1) if you have an account on imslpforums (you don't need an imslp account for this) there are quite a few people who regularly work on typesetting there who you could ask about this
(2) except that several of us use different preferred typesetting software (eg Lilypond for me) with likely mixed results, I suspect one possibility might be a collaborative effort.
(3) I confess I am a little surprised the parts are nowhere. I would have thought it possible that the orchestra that premiered them (... was either of them ever performed?) might have had a copy of the parts somewhere - maybe and still and hopefully.
Thank you, John. You are absolutely correct regarding Dorico's genesis. It is indeed very effective software and easy to work with. If its development team is able to keep making updates and fill in some missing features only Finale/Sibelius currently has, it is on track to rivaling and surpassing both, eventually.
I can sympathize with your failing eyesight, but I actually find Lachner's handwriting pretty straightforward to read. Lately as a personal challenge, I set myself to decipher Pingoud's "The Last Adventure of Pierrot" manuscript which is just a complete mess. The publishers website has a sample of that manuscript: https://nuotisto.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/store/bcbc19d239b48c9cb2252769e76ab171c3a2c7bd9b599768f76217232481 (https://nuotisto.s3-eu-west-1.amazonaws.com/store/bcbc19d239b48c9cb2252769e76ab171c3a2c7bd9b599768f76217232481). I think it would take me less time to write a whole Lachner symphony than just the 35 pages of that Pingoud score.
Sorry to say that I won't be able to finish any of the Lachner 2nd/4th symphony movements any time in near future, but perhaps a sample of the few beginning pages may be useful to hear to someone.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/adcx2foiw6uwpma/Lachner%20-%20Symphony%20no%204%20-%20sample%20audio%2C%20first%20movement.mp3?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/adcx2foiw6uwpma/Lachner%20-%20Symphony%20no%204%20-%20sample%20audio%2C%20first%20movement.mp3?dl=0)
Dear John, this is really an interesting undertaking. Actually I have done the same with Mendelssohn's unfinished 6th symphony from a handwritten score of 80 measures
(see my thread http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php?topic=7008.0 ). I don't think I have the time to do the whole score but I might start with the beginning of the Allegro part of the 2nd symphony. Or is the 4th symphony more promising? I am not sure about the quality of the works. I'm just listening to the 5th symphony in youtube which has a good main theme but the rest is not so convincing to me ...
Gerd
Well, on the basis of the quality of his -6th- symphony (even though that's only in MIDI, but is on YouTube) or the recently-recorded 3rd (on cpo)- which might be better than the 5th, I say go for it. I've put up incipits for each movement of the 2nd (@ IMSLP) for what it's worth...
The score of symphony no.2 is listed as being "Unter der Presse" (as Musikalisches Archiv, No. 14) in the April 1834 "Intelligenzblätt" of the AMZ (right after symphony no.1, same page, but that one is listed as being published that year I think). The April 1834 section is indeed devoted to Diabelli publications. Wonder what happened...
Also, the 2nd symphony was performed ("Lachner produirte..") sometime around February/March 1834. That answered that question. (See AMZ 5 March 1834, page 159 etc.)
Thank you, gentlemen, for your further replies and offers of help.
According to Dr Harald Mann, who appears to be an authority on Franz Lachner and his composer siblings, the 2nd Symphony met with thunderous applause at an 1835 performance.
Sadly, heavy Allied bombing of many German cities during World War II, must have destroyed much printed matter and manuscripts along with everything else. This would possibly account for the difficulty in finding scores and parts of many musical works including these 2 symphonies.
Cheers,
John.
I have begun with the Scherzo of the 2nd symphony - it sounds great! What is special about the piece is the great use of counterpoint in the Scherzo!
My question is: in what line are the french horns and where the trombones?
Gerd
I think it's unfortunate instrument names are not written in margin except for the first page of the score. You have to look at the start of the first movement to be sure. From top down:
Flutes
Oboes
Clarinets
Horns 1-2
Horns 3-4
Bassoons
Clarini (trumpets)
Timpani
Trombones 1-2
Bass Trombone
Piccolo (ad libitum)
Violins I
Violins II
Violas
Cellos
Contrabassi
Also, some manuscripts introduce instruments in the middle of things rather than on the first page (unlike most published scores), so caveat :)
The last 2 days I was quite dilligent in about at least 12 hours to edit and record the Scherzo of the 2nd symphony - a remarkable piece! The Scherzo is really furious whereas the Trio is moves me with its simplicity and melodious singing of clarinet and basson accampanied with most tender strings.
I ignored the trombones and horns 3 and 4, but even without these the brass is quite heavy (maybe even too loud in the beginning?).
I hope you enjoy this piece as I do!
www.gerdprengel.de/Lachner_symph_2_Scherzo.mp3
www.gerdprengel.de/Lachner_symph_2_Scherzo.pdf
Gerd
Thank you, sir, it is not every day one gets even to try out part of a substantial work that hasn't probably been heard for 170-odd years. (Referring to Mr. Prengel's post which I have inadvertently hidden at the bottom of the preceding page, with an mp3 and a typeset of a movement from the 2nd symphony.)
May I add my thanks and appreciation also?
One comment: at 4:58 the movement seems very short for this composer. Has the question of repeats been considered?
QuoteOne comment: at 4:58 the movement seems very short for this composer. Has the question of repeats been considered?
I had some technical problems with the repetition of the second main part. Now I included the repetition and have now a bit more than 6 minutes
Many thanks,Gerd, for letting us hear this splendid Scherzo. Lachner often seems to be at his best in his scherzos.
Cheers,
John
Wow, excellent work Gerd. Magnificent to hear it for the first time since ages past. Could I ask what scoring program are you using?
I felt inspired by your work and decided to add in the rest of the instruments - trombones, horns and the optional piccolo (fixed a few pesky errors too). Lachner felt the need to call it a "Grand" Symphony, anyway, let us make it so! ;D
If anyone uses Dorico, I created a template which might help with the rest of the movements. This audio was created with noteperformer soundfont..
Audio: https://www.dropbox.com/s/gkd9vq8mg9gdhqu/Franz%20Lachner%20-%20Symphony%20no%202%2C%20Scherzo%20audio.mp3?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/gkd9vq8mg9gdhqu/Franz%20Lachner%20-%20Symphony%20no%202%2C%20Scherzo%20audio.mp3?dl=0)
Score: https://www.dropbox.com/s/htaxrhhwvwrpa2l/Franz%20Lachner%20-%20Symphony%20no%202%2C%20Scherzo%20typeset.pdf?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/htaxrhhwvwrpa2l/Franz%20Lachner%20-%20Symphony%20no%202%2C%20Scherzo%20typeset.pdf?dl=0)
template: https://www.dropbox.com/s/a6x11vz9gi318y9/Franz%20Lachner%20-%20Symphony%20no%202%2C%20dorico%20template.dorico?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/a6x11vz9gi318y9/Franz%20Lachner%20-%20Symphony%20no%202%2C%20dorico%20template.dorico?dl=0)
Kudos to all involved! Great work!
I've just thought. I wonder if there is anyone in our Forum that has the necessary advanced software and the necessary time who could help Gerd out by undertaking to decipher certain specific movements from these two symphonies. I don't think my poor eyesight would allow me to take on such a task. In the past, it has taken me many months to copy printed works of this size into Noteworthy and Sibelius. However, if such a shared project were to go ahead, I could probably print off A5 miniature scores and produce CDs from MP3 or Wav files to send off to various conductors and recording companies, such as CPO or Naxos, with a view to getting them recorded by live orchestras.
Cheers,
John.
Dear tpaloj,
I am amazed how you created such a beautiful score on the basis of my pdf file. Can you import pdf files into your notation software or did you edit it altogether manually? I use Finale together with NotePerformer and I would import/export xml-files for exchange.
But I must admit that I like the sound of my recorded version better. You seem to use less reverb which is better than my original mp3 (by now I reduced my reverb...), but I would not use the piccolo flute at all, somewhow the piccolo seems very disturbing to me, and your tempo of the Trio , I feel, is much too slow (eventhough it says "Lento") . I feel it should be a slow waltz tempo. What do you all think?
Very important for me are the celli in the middle of the Trio - so beautiful (3:27...)!
Gerd
I have begun now with the Adagio...
I agree that your mp3 does actually sound better overall, Gerd!
I chose to stick with the original tempos as indicated in the manuscript, but especially the trio sounds better played in a more brisk manner. I used pretty much the default noteperformer settings in Dorico. I'm not convinced by the audio quality. Sometimes I would like to use Dorico's default (Halion), which has a more distinct sound for each instrument but therein lies a problem - my computer is so old it's unable to play back thick orchestral textures with that soundfont - it results in skipped audio and dropped instruments. Noteperformer doesn't have that problem due to how it's programmed to render the music 1-2 seconds ahead, requiring less direct processing power.
Yes, I manually created the whole score for Dorico. Your score was helpful in double checking for second opinion in some places where the manuscript was vague. We're both indebted to the composer's repetition and it was pretty fast to write this movement ;D
Besides some mistakes that should need clearing up (Violin I divisi/a3 in the trio section; the placement of repeat barlines) you did a great job with your arrangement. I look forward to the Adagio.
Of course, to paraphrase Liszt, repetition is often a terrific thing, (depending)- I look forward to finding out...
By now I have worked on about the first third of the slow movement and I can tell so far from the 2 middle movements that this symphony is better than any other so far published symphony by Lachner. I love this slow movement in its simplicity and very melodious themes. I hope to finish it in about a week ...
Gerd
That's very good news. Let's hope the remainder of the work measures up...
You are certainly a glutten for punishment Gerd! You appear to take just a few weeks over a task that would take me many months and I'd probably make lots of mistakes on the way.
I notice that, in Lchner's 2nd, 3rd & 4th symphonies the scherzo comes 2nd in the batting order, whereas in Nos 5, 6 & 8 the more usual order of the movements is adhered to. Maybe we might have another thread here on which is the better way of ordering a standard 4 movement symphony.
My own answer would be, there is none. There is often a better order for any given symphony as a matter of balance (and watch fans of Mahler 6 - I'm one - fight that over) but no one Procrustean solution for all "standard 4-movement symphonies" for which the question is relevant.
Even Beethoven didn't stick with one order.
Nor did Joseph Haydn, in symphony or quartet.
In a former thread I read that someone of you has created a midi file of the 6th symphony. I would be very much interested in this, especially as I read that Schumann considered this one as his best symphony! Is this still available somewhere? In the IMSPL site I found only the notes of a version of a piano version for 4 hands ...
By the way this morning I heard Lachner's Requiem for the first time - it has some beautiful passages:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kLFfhv3l2Is&list=OLAK5uy_mIJT9BVREcLOZS05QnWml0GK6JC4e6sgU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQT25gEfHRs&list=OLAK5uy_mIJT9BVREcLOZS05QnWml0GK6JC4e6sgU&index=8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZ3t4d3xayU&list=OLAK5uy_mIJT9BVREcLOZS05QnWml0GK6JC4e6sgU&index=11
Gerd
...which can be purchased here:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lachner-F-P-Requiem-Augsburg-Chamber/dp/B001LYPR0W/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=lachner+requiem&qid=1566487769&s=gateway&sr=8-1 (https://www.amazon.co.uk/Lachner-F-P-Requiem-Augsburg-Chamber/dp/B001LYPR0W/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=lachner+requiem&qid=1566487769&s=gateway&sr=8-1)
Now back to the symphonies, please...
The 6th can be heard @ here (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yLhvIhoKvUE) (YouTube). (55 minutes in all...) That someone may have been me; I've listened to the MIDI (which I did not create...) of no.6 many times with much enjoyment considering that it's a MIDI and expect that a performance by a fine conductor and orchestra would be even better. (Though if my experience is any indication that could be awhile :) )
The full score was published by 1838 by Haslinger, and has been republished by Musikproduction Höflich (for 38 Euros for the score.) See MPH (https://repertoire-explorer.musikmph.de/en/product/lachner-franz-2/).
Would you send me the midi, please ?? I could create quickly a much better sound with noteperformer ...
I've never had it. There's a thread about the symphony and Mr. White's work on creating it here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,2303.msg27685.html#msg27685)- I see him in this thread just yesterday, maybe you two could collaborate...
It took me about 25 hours (many complicated 1/16 and 1/32 notes especially in the middle) - but today I could finish the Adagio of the 2nd symphony - and I am so grateful that I could do it! It is such a rich movement with a most tender and melodious main part in B flat major carried dominantly by the oboe and a great and passionate middle part in B-flat-minor.
Please listen to it - if possible with headphones:
www.gerdprengel.de/Lachner_symph_2_Adagio.mp3
Tomorrow I hope to present also the score
Thank you for introducing me to Franz Lachner of whom until 2 weeks ago I never had heard of before ...
Please share your impressions ...
Gerd
Fine work again Gerd!! I'm not such an acute critic as others here are to analyze the music but I'd say this is indeed one strong, even inventive Adagio on first hearing. Bravo for Lachner. It's been said about his symphonies that the inner movements are often stronger than the long-winded outer ones.
Coincidentally I just finished creating audio of the Scherzo from the 4th Symphony. Phew! Hopefully the audio quality is not too offensive. I was a bit puzzled about the latter part of the manuscript - there's 13 pages worth of music preceded vaguely on the first page by the words "gilt nicht" (=does not apply; discard?). It appears like an earlier version of the Trio so I decided not to include it. Clocking at around 11 minutes, there's plenty of repetitions in this Scherzo to go around even when those pages are omitted :)
Audio: https://www.dropbox.com/s/hbcg4u4ge6v63b5/Franz%20Lachner%20-%20Symphony%20no%204%2C%20Scherzo%20audio.mp3?dl=0 (https://www.dropbox.com/s/hbcg4u4ge6v63b5/Franz%20Lachner%20-%20Symphony%20no%204%2C%20Scherzo%20audio.mp3?dl=0)
Gerd, I've just seen your post on the 6th symphony which I put into Sibelius software a few years back . You are certainly welcome to receive the WAV version but, if you can let me have your home address, I'll post you a CD of it. You can contact me by email on jalbis127@gmail,com
Personally, I think young Robert Schumann i , the music critic, who later wrote 4 fine symphonies of his own, was rather over enthusiastic about this work.. I find the opening movement rather monotonous apart from the fugue towards the end. The slow movement is a bit better but I do like the rather spooky mjnor mode scherzo and especially the Rollicikng finale.
Cheers,
John.
Dear John, I know the wav file from the 6th symph. already from YouTube and I think the sound quality is not so good. If you could send me the XML-Export from the Sibelius source I could improve the sound rendition significantly using NotePerformer. Do you still have the Sibelius file?
Dear tpaloj,
you did a great job to edit and record the Scherzo from symph. #4, but I must admit that the Scherzo from the 2nd symph. thematically I find more convincing, especially regarding the Trio.
Here now I also present the preliminary score of the Adagio, both as pdf and as XML. Could you try to import the XML to your Sibelius and check whether this works?
www.gerdprengel.de/Lachner_symph_2_Adagio.pdf
www.gerdprengel.de/Lachner_symph_2_Adagio.musicxml
www.gerdprengel.de/Lachner_symph_2_Adagio.mp3
Gerd
Dear Gerd,
Please forgive my ignorance, but I think I've managed to get all the 4 Sibelius files into compressed XML, but I don't know how to proceed from there. I'd be grateful for a bit of help in locating them and finally posting them please.
Hi, John, when you created the xml file you probably got a pop up window opened where you could enter the name for the file. There you could see also the location path for the file. If you forgot that, you can begin to repeat it and you see the location (without the need to actually execute the store again).
This file then you can attach to an email which you can send to me...
What do you think about the Adagio from the 2nd symph. ?
Greetings
Gerd
I am now almost half through the first half of the first movement of the 2nd symphony and I am amazed how good also this movement is! The main theme of the Allegro is a nice waltz - if I didn't know it I would swear that it is from Tschaikowsky, like the 3rd mov. from his 5th symphony written 50 years later !
Hello Gerd,
In case you didn't get my private replies to you, I can say that I'll get my son to help me with those xml files. That fine adagio, to me, is like Haydn's Surprise Symphony on steroids!
Cheers,
John.
After 2 weeks of much editing the many many notes I made it to finish the first movement. I cannot express how much I adore this movment - a wonderful slow introduction and a great Allegro (with many beautiful passages, especially the dramatic development and ending). In this first solution I left out 3rd/4th hornes and trombones - I will add them sometime later. Please take the time to listen to it and share your impressions so that my efforts are not in vain ...
www.gerdprengel.de/Lachner_symph_2_Allegro.mp3
www.gerdprengel.de/Lachner_symph_2_Allegro.pdf
Gerd
Thanks Gerd. Good stuff.
I agree. That 1st movement is really splendid. What I have heard (and seen) so far of Lachner's 2nd and 4th symphonies, thanks to members of this forum, convince me that he is due a reappraisal (at least by me!). Based largely on the 5th symphony, I had found his music pretty dull up to now.
Thanks for uploading the first three movement recordings to IMSLP, too.
Now all we need is a recording of the whole symphony.
Perhaps an email to Herr Schmilgun at CPO. They may be more interested if we can provide them with a clean full score and set of parts.
If someone could prepare an email in English, I could translate it...
Well, let's make sure our splendid workers on this forum are happy to produce a full score AND parts before we get in touch. Once that has been done, I am happy to draft a message. Thank you, Alan, for your kind offer.
Should I first finish the 4th movement? And as I said above - the trombones and 3rd and 4th horns are still missing. And the clarinetts and brass still need to be transposed to the correct key in the score.
But it would help to have a preliminary assessment of some conductor whether all this work would find an interest ...
Gerd
Yes, by all means! It would be great to be able to provide an audio file plus the score and parts for a CD label (e.g. cpo) to assess the work. My target as far as conductor and performers are concerned would be Gernot Schmalfuss and the (Taiwanese) Evergreen Symphony Orchestra who have already recorded Symphony No.3.
and even at "only" 3 movements so far, going from manuscript to mp3s (and I assume you made some form of typeset score or parts you've produced too from which the mp3s are actually just a byproduct, you may have mentioned :) ) is remarkable stuff already (I try to do such things and realize it's not near easy at least for me...- except for the midis/mp3s, I can't figure out how to do that reliably (with Lilypond) the way I used to with Finale once upon a time, but other features of Lilypond make up for it...)
Thank you again for your industriousness, gprengel! From what we've heard of the 2nd Symphony (and a few others, too) I'd be amazed if it did not achieve great success in its own time. Its neglect is a most unjust state of affairs.
It would really be excellent to have real recordings of these works. But, were it to happen, I would NOT want to hear a chamber ensemble arrangement with missing instruments! And with scores and parts edited/proofread by a professional editor.
Again, it's wonderful to witness your passion in recreating the 2nd Symphony's audio. If I may say, in regards to the scores? -- I would suggest you rethink your approach/methods in applying dynamic markings (hairpins, pp-ff etc.). They are all over the place, irregular, obscured by notes and other elements of the score. This would improve readability by a great amount :)
... oh that's right, you did provide downloadable typeset (if improvable) scores, please ignore certain statements I made about that :)
As to parts, if I remember another case, it's hard to overestimate (though I suppose it's fairly obvious, then again) how important even to a very interested conductor, planner and ensemble just the existence of good performing parts especially will be. (Preferably - this is not always the case even with the original parts when they are available - ones that agree with each other and with the score.)
Dear friends, thank you for your encouraging remarks! I just made some corrections in the score of the 1st movement regarding dynamics.
Dear taploj, here is an exported XML file of the first movement: www.gerdprengel.de/Lachner_symph_2_Allegro.musicxml
Can you import that into Sibelius? Could you please take a look especially at the brass voices and make some neccessary corrections? Regarding these I had the greatest difficulties ...
I am working now on the 4th movement, but it probably will take me 3 weeks - about 120 pages!
Gerd
Not to look a gift horse in the mouth, Gerd, because your realisations of the first three movements of this symphony (not to mention the whole of the 6th) have been amazing, but I wonder whether you finished the fourth movement of the 2nd? Please forgive my impatience, but this work of yours has been a revelation.
Dear Mark, I am very glad that these symphonies have become a "revealation" for you - surely they are this for me!
As I wrote in the other thread I could ignite the enthusiasm of a friend for this work and he is now working on the Finale also with NotePerformer and should finish it in 2 weeks or so ...😊😊
He finished the expostion part by now ...
Good to know, thanks Gerd.
I second this; considering how much work it does take to render a manuscript (even smaller ones, but- especially given how that of the 4th symphony looks...) into performable shape, I (too?) wasn't expecting to see or hear any part of the 2nd or 4th symphonies for a good long while yet if at all, so thank you again.
I wrote that a friend has begun to do the finale of the second symph. - sorry to say that he quitt after the beginning of the development - he doesn't find more time :-( So I have to do it myself - it is a long movement with many many notes and much much work ... I need another 2 weeks or so ... sorry
But I can say that the exposition is great and has lots of "fire" :-)
Gerd
Take your time Gerd, there's no need to rush. It'll be terrific to hear no doubt! Likewise, I had begun the 1st mv. of the 4th S. some time back but there's another 40 pages left to go. Even less time now... perhaps a Christmas miracle will witness it done by end of December :)
Dear tpaloj,
I finally made it to finish the wonderful Finale of the 2nd symphony - till tomorrow I will present it here :-)
I had written you a message a few weeks ago asking for the XML File of your Scherzo version of the 2nd symphony but didn't get an answer yet. Could you send it to me so I can make my corrections of my version? Thank you!
Gerd
Excellent Gerd! Unfortunately I must have missed that message (went to spam mail perhaps), but I'll send you the file soon as I can.
So here it is: the awesome Finale of Lachner's great 2nd symphony - so full of great and melodious themes, extraordinary orchestration (brass !) - and so much fire .... I hope you will enjoy it as I do (I am addicted to listening to this splendid Finale:-)
www.gerdprengel.de/Lachner_symph_2_Finale.mp3
Structure:
Exposition 0:00
Development 3:15
Recapitulation 5:33
Coda 9:14
I wonder whether I put a bit too much volume to the brass ...?
Gerd
Gerd, thank you so much for this work. With the exception of no. 4, we now have all symphonies (well, more or less; let's give a bit of leeway to no. 7).
The brass is a bit on the dominant side; but rather than lowering its volume, I'd suggest increasing everything else. Coming from the preceding scherzo, the beginning of the final comes across as a bit p, and I can't imagine that was meant to be.
Great stuff! The ending is very powerful / inspiring .... well done!
Belated thanks from me too, Gerd. Hugely appreciated.
May I echo Mark's thanks. Wonderful to be able to hear this terrific work. I would very much appreciate seeing the full score now you have so painstakingly transcribed it. Would it be possible to have a copy?
Dear Gareth,
I am glad you like the work and thank you for your interest in the score. Here is it:
www.gerdprengel.de/Lachner_symph_2_Finale.pdf
Gerd
Dear Gerd,
Thank you very much indeed. I really appreciate your kindness, generosity and hard work. I do hope very much that some enterprising company (CPO perhaps) can be persuaded to record this and the 6th symphony with a professional orchestra. The listening public will have a real treat in store.
Some good news: I have finished recreating the 4th Symphony in its entirety!
With this we now have some point of reference to all of Lachner's unrecorded symphonies, thanks to valuable efforts of Gerd and John with the 2nd & 6th as well. I hope this will reach John – it is first and foremost thanks to his enthusiasm that has led to the realization of this project.
All movements, repeats and instruments are included. Tempi are as Lachner has specified in the manuscript with an exception for the Finale: I took a slightly slower pace due to dynamics/playback issues. Time stamps for all four movements can be found in the description of the Youtube video.
This was a very laborious task: we have a 23-minute opening movement; and besides the Finale running up to 90 manuscript pages..! I welcome everyone to share their opinions and impressions on this behemoth of a symphony...
https://youtu.be/5UYqVd0OBRw (https://youtu.be/5UYqVd0OBRw)
Well done, sir! What a task. Would it be possible to see the score you produced? I always like to listen to a piece of music with the score if at all possible.
This is a terrific job, tpaloj, thank you so much. I have also enjoyed your realisation of Moszkowski's D major Overture.
Thank you Gareth! Unfortunately the score I have at the moment wouldn't look optimal - it would need some further editing work to be presentable.
In the meantime if it works for you the full manuscript is available on IMSLP, and all things considered it's pretty readable. Of course contrary to modern tradition Lachner places the horns in between clarinets and bassoons. The timpani line is usually placed in between trombones and trumpets. The ad lib. piccolo part is always at the foot of the score. Hope that helps!
I admire without reservation anyone who can persist with such a task. Thanks so much.
My first reaction, though, is to think that 58 minutes is far too long. Compared to, say Rufinatscha's last Symphony in D, there's just too much 'busy-ness' and not enough variety.
Question: are there repeats that could be excised to the work's advantage? (Or would that be sacrilege?)
QuoteUnfortunately the score I have at the moment wouldn't look optimal - it would need some further editing work to be presentable.
I fully understand. I'll use the MS scan at IMSLP, but it would be really good to see your score when you have tidied it to your satisfaction, if that would be ok.
Mind if I link your recording somewhere on the IMSLP page (maybe under NonCommercialRecordings?)
Thank you Alan and Mark.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Tuesday 28 January 2020, 12:40Question: are there repeats that could be excised to the work's advantage? (Or would that be sacrilege?)
Well, this symphony was reportedly performed at Wien in 1836 to great success: "a solid and wonderfully worked masterpiece" but the performance was "too brief in duration or presence" as they say, however that might be interpreted! In any case, there is room to negotiate omitting some of the taxing exposition repeats, namely in the first movement (five minutes altogether) and other bits later here and there. Perhaps around 10 minutes of cuts would work without compromising the overall form.
Quote"... Einen andern Hochgenuss bereitete uns Hr. Kapellmeister Lachner aus Mannheim, indem er während einer allzukurzen Anwesenheit seine vierte Symphonie in E dur, ein gediegenes, herrlich gearbeitetes Meisterwerk, zu Gehör brachte. ..." -AMZ Vol 38, no 7, 1836
Quote from: eschiss1 on Tuesday 28 January 2020, 16:13
Mind if I link your recording somewhere on the IMSLP page (maybe under NonCommercialRecordings?)
Sure, that's fine!
QuoteEinen andern Hochgenuss bereitete uns Hr. Kapellmeister Lachner aus Mannheim, indem er während einer allzukurzen Anwesenheit seine vierte Symphonie in E dur, ein gediegenes, herrlich gearbeitetes Meisterwerk, zu Gehör brachte. ..
Allow me, though, to correct your translation because it's important:
<<The Director of Music (Kapellmeister) from Mannheim, Herr Lachner, gave us another special treat during his all-too short stay by leading a performance of his Fourth Symphony in E major, a dignified and superbly crafted masterpiece.>>
In other words, it wasn't the performance that was all-too brief, but his stay (literally 'presence' - Anwesenheit) in Vienna. There is no reference at all to the work's duration.
I hope I may thank you both for your hard and (for me at least) rewarding work in recreating these symphonies. All I could ask would be mp3 versions of the 4th symphony :D but to paraphrase a famous movie line, one has the moon, why ask for the stars... (edit: hrm. actually, the online youtube-mp3 converter y2mate seems to have succeeded in doing so. Failed on the first try, succeeded on the second.)
Dear Tuomas! I just listened this work while following it with the autograph from the IMSPL website and can just marvel about the huge labour which you undertook to make this rendition for us possible - thank you!
Of this symphony I think the Allegro of the first movement is the most convincing part of the symphony: I like the lovely Allegro main theme and especially the passages starting at, 4:53, 5:59 (fantastic!!) and 7:16 at the end of the exposition, the great development from 13:50 - 17:00 and the whole recapitulation/Coda ... really a great movement! The other movements,however, unfortuneately could not speak to me that much so far ... of these I liked the final part of the Andante the most (39:55 ...). I will listen to the work some more times ...
By now I have written to several orchestras and various persons regarding the 6th and 2nd symphony but unfortuneately haven't got a substancial response yet ...
Gerd
btw the Esser arrangement of the Lachner 7th symphony is digitized @ BSB I think.
I must admit that when I heard this symphony the first time I appreciated only the first Allegro, but by now as I listened to it over and over again I love the whole work with all its movements!! Thank you again, Tuomas, for this great achievement you have done! Can you also present the score to us?
Gerd