Dear members,
I would like to turn your attention to the following broadcast of Cipriani Potter's Symphony No. 1.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000h09l
Do you know more about this? Perhaps a complete cycle of recordings in the making?
Fantastic spot - well done! Do we know from the BBC if this is the G minor symphony, which I have listed as 1819, revised 1824/6? I understand there is some ambiguity about the numbering and dating etc. of his symphonies.
If anyone has the time and technical skills to record this and upload it, I would greatly appreciate it.
Best wishes
Richard
This is all the BBC listing says:
(Maundy Thursday, 9th April at 2pm)
Cipriano (sic!) Potter: Symphony No 1
BBC NOW
Howard Griffths (conductor)
Wikipedia has this list of Potter's symphonies:
Symphony [No. 1] in G minor (1819, revised 1824–26) [unnumbered by the composer]
Symphony [No. 2] in B♭ major (1821, revised 1839) [unnumbered by the composer]
Symphony [No. 3] in C minor (1826) [styled No. 6 by the composer]
Symphony [No. 4] in F major (1826) [styled No. 7 by the composer]
Symphony [No. 5] in E♭ major (1828, revised with replacement slow movement 1846) [styled No. 8 by the composer]
Symphony [No. 6] in G minor (1832) [styled both No. 10 and No. 2 by the composer]
Symphony [No. 7] in D major (1833) [styled No. 2 by the composer]
Symphony [No. 8] in C minor (1834) [unnumbered by the composer]
Symphony [No. 9] in D major (1834) [styled No. 4 by the composer]
Do you mean Hyperion or CPO? The Hyperion set is conducted by Howard Shelley. The CPO set is conducted by Howard Griffiths.
The question is, how many of these have survived? Apart from the G minor symphony (and because of the inconsistent numbering it is impossible to tell from a library catalogue which lists simply "Symphony in G minor" exactly which G minor symphony it is) a brief search throws up only the E flat and B flat symphonies (mss in RAM and available online through their catalogue) and a Symphony in D minor, held by more than one library but only in a 2-piano arrangement. So where are the others, one wonders. The B flat symphony ms is probably incomplete as it consists of only 11 pages. I will have to do more searching.
On your current count, Gareth, what's your best guess as to how many survive complete? And which ones?
The British Library Music MS collection lists the following full scores:
Symphony in G minor (1819, rev. 1826) 49pp. Autograph ms.
RPS MS 159
Symphony in B flat (1821) 89pp. ms [bound in with "Allegro con fuoco" of Symphony in G minor (1819)]
RPS MS 160
Symphony in C minor (1834) 54pp. Autograph ms.
RPS MS 161
Symphony in D (1833) 69pp. Autograph ms.
RPS MS 162
Symphony in G minor (1832) 56pp. Autograph ms.
RPS MS 163
Symphony in D (1834) 54pp. Autograph ms.
RPS MS 164
Also:
THREE symphonies (Nos. 6, 7, and 8 ), in C minor, F, and E flat, in score, by Cipriani Potter; January and November, 1826, and November, 1828. Autograph. Paper; ff. 200. Oblong Folio.
Add MS 31783
Parts held:
Symphony in E flat (date on parts: 1846)
Add MS 31788
Symphony in C minor (date on parts: 1847) [not clear from catalogue which C minor symphony]
Add MS 31790
Assuming the 2 G minor symphonies and the 2 symphonies in D are separate and entirely different compositions, and that the C minor symphony (1826) bound in with the Symphony in F listed in Add MS 31783 above is different from that listed as RPS MS 161, all 9 symphonies would seem to have survived. Also, let me correct myself: it is one of the D major symphonies that I noted in my earlier post as being listed in some libraries in a 2-piano arrangement, NOT a symphony in D minor. As far as we know there is no Symphony in D minor by Potter.
That's really helpful, thanks.
An energetic Beethovenian symphony from Potter, well worth reviving. Thanks for the heads up.
I've recorded and uploaded it. I didn't listened to it yet. I hope the quality is fair. See downloads.
If those are the movement markings, the G minor symphony of Potter recorded by the Milton Keynes Chamber Orchestra under Hilary Davan Whetton on Unicorn Kanchana must be the later G minor, the one dated 1832 ("Symphony No. 6", though variously styled both 10 and 2 by the composer). I don't have this CD so can't make a comparison with the radio broadcast, but the movements listed on the CD are not the same as those for the broadcast symphony.
Your assumption must be correct, Gareth, as the G minor symphony conducted by Davan Wetton is quite different from the one broadcast today - always assuming that's correctly identified of course. :)
which G minor symphony was performed by the Philomusica/David Littaur 6/14/1975 and broadcast by the BBC as #5 Feb. 19 1976?
BTW CADENSA lists March 1989 broadcast recordings by Davan Wettan for BBC with Ulster of the G minor symphony he recorded a half year later for Unicorn with Milton Keynes.
QuoteWe are quite lucky with broadcasts and recordings
That's a really helpful summary, thanks joelingaard. Spurred on by yesterday's broadcast, I've been looking at the various recordings of unidentified BBC Potter symphony broadcasts on my hard drive, trying to identify what and by whom. This makes things very much clearer. Unfortunately my copy of the Unicorn-Kanchana CD had fallen foul to the bronzing plague, but luckily I did make a backup a few years ago. Listening to all this music afresh after a break of a few years makes one realise what a fascinating and rewarding early-romantic symphonist Potter was.
Thank you for all this information and for the upload of the BBC broadcast. All very generous, as usual. :)
Spurred on by the recent BBC broadcast of his first Symphony (G minor, 1819), I've been enjoying rediscovering Potter's other symphonies. As joelingaard pointed out above, all but two of the nine surviving works have been recorded, and I thought I'd share the three symphonies broadcast by the BBC in 1995: the Symphonies in C minor (No.3 - 1826), C minor (No.8 - 1834) and D major (No.9 - 1834), together with the rather fine Tempest Overture and a replacement slow movement for the F major Symphony (No.5 - 1828), which Potter composed when he revised that Symphony in 1846. They're all now available in our Downloads Board here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,7712.0.html). They aren't my recordings and the sound could be better, but the quality is certainly good enough to enjoy these uniformly impressive works.
Symphony No.1 has just been broadcast (jperdrix's recording is downloadable here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,7704.0.html)) and Nos.4,5 & 6 are, or at least were, available commercially (although labelled Nos.7, 8 & 10!). Hopefully it won't be too long before we can hear the B♭ major Symphony (No.2 - 1821) and the first D major one (No.7 - 1833).
Why not write to those companies and suggest they consider Potter's symphonies? Experience has shown they do take notice of comments from informed members of the listening public.
...and Howard Griffiths would do a great job. Why not try cpo first, then?
I wonder - and this is just a passing thought - if when we think of British orchestral music we think of a late Romantic sound and therefore don't regard composers like Potter as being typically British and worth recording.
(By the way - thanks for the upload, this will keep me happily occupied for ages)
Certainly it's not customary to think of us having a significant symphonist writing in the 1820s/30s. Good point. And then in the next generation, although overlapping with Potter, there's Macfarren. And probably others too.
It's interesting that, as joelingaard has already mentioned above, Potter's symphonies were sufficiently highly regarded by A. Peter Brown in his seminal survey Symphonic Repertoire for him to put aside quite a few pages to analysing them, and his verdict is very positive. I suspect that it's a British thing to disregard virtually every one of our symphonists before Elgar, and it probably doesn't help that Potter himself only composed in the first half of his career, IIRC correctly there's nothing of significance after 1846, yet he lived into the 1870s.
G McFarren seems to have written good chamber music too.
QuoteI don't think Macfarren is shown at his best by symphonies
You may well be right. But we don't have a great deal of evidence to go on (two out of nine symphonies). And, as I said, there are probably others...
That's a bit unfair, I think, and I greatly enjoyed the McFarren symphonies. They're not spectacular, admittedly, but if we're really honest neither are Potter's. Solid late classical fare, and we're all the richer for it.
That's about right, I'd say.
QuoteG McFarren seems to have written good chamber music too.
I have published most of the
flute repertoire (sonata, concerto, recitative & air, Trifle no.1) as well as a transcription for oboe & piano of the Entracte to Act 3 of Robin Hood Act - and it is indeed good stuff.
You can hear audio and page samples:
https://trubcher.com/search.php?search_query=macfarren
As this seems to have turned into a general discussion of Potter's symphonies, I'll make this announcement here since it is related to the conversation:
I have just uploaded the 1995 BBC radio recording of Symphony [No. 4] in F major (1826) [styled No. 7 by the composer].
As a reminder, there is another recording of this symphony by the Czech Chamber PO on Classico from 2005, styled as No. 7. It falsely claims itself as the world premiere recording.
Thank you for uploading this, Justin. A performance of a symphony by Potter is always welcome.
It reminds me that Hilary Davan-Wetton was such a great champion of Unsung music back in the 70s and 80s (and perhaps still is), esp. by British composers, and so many performances under his baton were broadcast by the BBC (and popped onto my reel-to-reel at the same time!).
Yes, thank you. I think I prefer this performance to the Czech Chamber PO version in which I think the woodwind sounds too prominent and tempos are bit inflexible.
This month at cpo: https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/cipriani-potter-symphonien-nr-1-2/hnum/8992773
That's a very welcome surprise!
The filename of the Potter makes it look like symphonies 1 & 2, which (unfortunately?) it isn't :) - but will withhold judgment!
If the first movement of the G minor Symphony recorded here really is Allegro con spirito, as mentioned in the description, then it must be Potter's "No.1" of 1819 (revised 1826), as the first movement of the G minor Symphony of 1832 available on Unicorn-Kanchana (as No.10, but now "No.6") is marked Allegro con fuoco. We'll have to await a more detailed listing of the tracks, but for the record "No.1" has:
I. Allegro con spirito
II. Andantino quasi allegretto
III. Tempo di Menuetto
IV. Allegro non tanto
Was just remarking that it seems to be Potter no.1 and some overtures, not syms. 1 & 2 as "cipriani-potter-symphonien-nr-1-2/hnum/8992773" seemed to promise - but :) no worries.
Quite right.
Might this be the performance broadcast by the BBC R3 on 9th May last year by the same orchestra and conductor, which can be heard at: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OdPVNz_Tt8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OdPVNz_Tt8) ?
It could well be - and a great find, Colin. Definitely the earlier of the two G minor symphonies too.
Is this the same performance that was uploaded to UC in April last year (I think)?
Richard
Dare one hope that this will be the first in a Potter cycle conducted by Howard Shelley for CPO?
Considering that the recording was done with the BBCNOW I am amazed that cpo are the label involved. I imagine that Howard Griffiths must be contracted to them.
It's not the first disc BBC NOW has recorded for cpo. Others I find are outside this forum's remit (Korngold's cello concerto- cpo's 2nd recording of that work- included.)
(As to Griffiths, I believe this is the case.)
A UK label should be doing the Potter symphonies. But if cpo do the lot, we can be very grateful.
I'm a fan of several composers whose music has been sometimes better-served by cpo or BIS (or Naxos, yes), say, than by labels in their own countries. In the case when their own country was the US, for example, that would have meant waiting 300-plus years - if I were lucky... so it seems an odd ground for complaint, looking from here.
Anyway.
Well, we should be prouder than we are of our early symphonists. After all, we don't have all that many (of note, anyway).
I received it yesterday, and I am in the middle of the second listening session.
This is one hell of a cd.
The smaller pieces are tremendous , high-quality fun ( in particular, the Ouverture is just gorgeous) and the symphony I just love...I think a lot of Potter's music sounds (mostly presciently) like what we now define as Schumannian, and this aspect is very strong here...so dramatic and stormy.
The syncopated "hiccups" at the beginning sound like a teaser trailer for Schumann's first. (15 years before!)
It's also fantastic to have a professional band (and a very good one) like the BBCNOW doing justice to this music.
Don't get me wrong : i treasure and I am very grateful for the Davan-Whetton cd but admittedly the good people of Milton Keynes could be quite wiry and scrawny.
It's just too bad the cd does not bear a "vol.1" on the cover..
The CPO recording is not, I think, the same G minor symphony as that recorded by Davan Whetton and The Milton Keynes Orchestra. That is the 1832 G minor symphony, styled No. 10 on that disk but which should probably be renumbered as No. 6 (please correct me if I am wrong).
No, it's not the same, the one on cpo is a much earlier one, I was just referring to the general performance standards of the regrettably scarce Potter symphonies recordings.
Ah, yes. Understood.
Wow! Hyperdanny is right: this is some recording of Potter's music. I put this down to two factors: firstly, the fiery, committed conducting of Howard Griffiths and secondly, the superlative playing of the BBCNOW who give the music the sort of weight that is so often lacking in music of this period, especially when played by smaller ensembles. The recording quality is also entirely fitting - clear, but with enough resonance to ensure that the music emerges with real stature.
These performances were recorded roughly two years ago. It is greatly to be hoped that there will be further releases of Potter's music from this distinguished team.
This ought to be an award-winning CD. It's that good.
That's very encouraging Alan. Thanks, I'll look forward to the download becoming available and I can retire my old radio recording of the symphony.
Don't know if anyone has mentioned that cpo CD 555274-2 of Potter's Symphony 1, Cymbeline Overture, and Introduzione e Rondo for piano and orchestra (1827) is coming out on April 30. Performers are the BBC Nat. O of Wales conducted by Howard Griffiths, with Claire Huangci on piano.
Thanks, Eric, for pointing out to pianoconcerto the existence of this thread on the new Potter CD.
pianoconcerto: I have merged your post with the existing thread.
Well, with those comments this has to go to the top of the 'must buy' list! I had no idea that the BBCNatOrchWales is so good.
QuoteI had no idea that the BBCNatOrchWales is so good
As a Welshman, I must bristle and ask: "Why wouldn't they be?!"
I see this may be hearkening back to a discussion back 8 or 9 years ago in our Downloads Discussion Archive (1 June 2012) on this point...
Oh no reason at all, Gareth. ;D With their pedigree they should be among the best, and it seems they are on top form for this Potter recording.
Re. the BBCNOW - an excellent band: I may have expressed some doubts in relation to their planned cycle of Franz Schmidt symphonies, but only in comparison with the world-class orchestras that have recorded Schmidt's music, such as the Vienna Philharmonic, Berlin Philharmonic, Chicago Symphony, etc.
it must be said that the average level of the various BBC orchestras is generally very high, notwithstanding what David Hurwitz (in smartass mode) likes to say about the BBC Philarmonic.
To find something on the same level, there's only the German radio orchestras.
I have it on good authority that CPO intend to continue the Potter orchestral recordings (symphonies in particular) and are "in discussion with the artists" about future disks.
Very encouraging. Thanks, Gareth.
Yes, indeed. Thanks, Gareth.