Unsung Composers

The Music => Recordings & Broadcasts => Topic started by: Reverie on Tuesday 07 April 2020, 23:01

Title: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Reverie on Tuesday 07 April 2020, 23:01
Enough of short extracts for now.

Here is the first movement of Berger's Symphony in Bb, his first symphony written a year before the turn of the century. His second symphony appeared 13 years later and is considered his masterpiece by many.

However, this movement from the earlier symphony is worth a listen. The orchestral writing is clean and uncluttered and his style although a little quirky at times is refreshingly personal.

See what you think.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nf3uqrFFc-s&t=21s
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 08 April 2020, 07:40
What a refreshing way to start the day, thanks so much Reverie, what a great job. It's a tad overlong and a little laboured at times, I suppose, but that's a charge that can be laid at many a late romantic composer's door. However the themes are fresh, and immediately memorable and Berger's orchestration is already admirably transparent, varied and unfailingly interesting. This really whets the appetite not only to hear more of this Symphony (please!), but also to hear a good performance of Berger's masterful Second Symphony, of which we still only have a barely adequate radio recording.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 08 April 2020, 09:37
QuoteHis second symphony appeared 13 years later

Just a correction, if I may: Symphony No.2 was indeed published in 1912 (i.e.posthumously), but was first performed in May 1900.

Thanks for your work on this - marvellous!
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 08 April 2020, 12:48
Marvellous indeed. This is as memorable new symphonic acquaintance as I have made in years. Friends will know that Berger is one of my favourite composers, sung or unsung, and this first movement just confirms my impression that his is a major voice awaiting re-discovery.

The 1st Symphony exhibits a quite different character when compared with No.2; it has humour in its sometimes quirky rhythms and also some gloriously life-affirming lyrical episodes. Although the idiom is more advanced than Brahms, one might say that it stands in relation to Berger 2 in the same way that Brahms 2 stands in relation to Brahms 4.

What is evident is that Berger has forged a style that is neither strictly conservative nor progressive. This may be one reason why, in an era dominated by his progressive contemporaries Strauss and Mahler, his music fell through the cracks of history. Berger was a conservative in that he favoured 'absolute music', but as a young man he had told his parents that he thought Wagner was the greatest genius then alive.

Let's also recall for a moment the discussion between Sibelius and Mahler in 1907 on the nature of the symphony. The great Finn said that he admired the strictness, style and deep logic of the symphony which requires that all its motifs must be linked to each other, whereas Mahler argued that symphony must be like the world - it must encompass everything. Here Berger would undoubtedly have stood with Sibelius against Mahler - and, of course, against the extra-musical preoccupations of Strauss in his tone poems. But in the world of Mahler and Strauss he was fighting a losing battle.

As a postscript, I have been on a 'Bruckner binge' of late, so Berger 1 doesn't come across as at all overlong to me - but then Mark and I have often disagreed over the issue of 'heavenly length'!
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 08 April 2020, 14:11
 :) and I did write "a tad", not "way, way too long  ".... I do agree, this promises to be a major discovery.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: eschiss1 on Thursday 09 April 2020, 21:52
In 1907 Mahler's current symphonies were not programmatic, and hadn't been at least since the 7th of 1904-5 if not the 5th, so I'm fairly sure that's not what he meant...

Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 09 April 2020, 22:09
The point, I think, was that Mahler (e.g. in Symphonies 2 & 3) had expanded the concept to include extra-musical content, specifically poetry set to music. It was this that Sibelius rejected (although, interestingly, not in Kullervo).

You are correct in suggesting that Mahler in fact produced symphonies in both the more traditional 4-movement, purely orchestral form and the expanded, multi-movement format. However, by 1907 we have to remember that he had just written his 8th Symphony (composed in the summer of 1906), which marks a return to the expanded concept which characterises Nos.2 and 3. 
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: eschiss1 on Friday 10 April 2020, 02:26
Mahler was familiar with Beethoven Berlioz* and Liszt and perhaps with Félicien David as well. He would not have considered this his innovation.

*"Mahler programmed his own first performance of the three orchestral episodes from Berlioz's Romeo et Juliette"...
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Friday 10 April 2020, 09:35
With respect, I think you're missing the point, Eric. The exchange between Mahler and Sibelius was about their differing concepts of the symphony, not merely about innovation. To repeat: the great Finn said that he admired the strictness, style and deep logic of the symphony which requires that all its motifs must be linked to each other, whereas Mahler argued that the symphony must be like the world - it must encompass everything. And the latter had just written his Symphony No.8 - a symphonic concept which Sibelius (and Berger) would never have embraced.

All I was arguing was that, in the context of the debate, Berger would have stood with Sibelius, rather than Mahler.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Reverie on Saturday 25 April 2020, 22:47
I'm working on the 2nd movement, a scherzo. It's a very thin, light texture but extremely lively. As for the discussion re: Sibelius/Mahler I think Wilhelm was attempting to create his own world despite the obvious influences. It's a  world I have recently come to love. A pity not many more have come to love it too. However, it's their loss I guess.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Sunday 26 April 2020, 08:59
Agreed. Thanks for doing this important work.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: dhibbard on Sunday 26 April 2020, 23:56
thanks!!
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Reverie on Monday 04 May 2020, 11:21
The second movement, a scherzo - sehr lebhaft (although I feel it shouldn't be too rushed)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OAnfKBdemSM
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 06 May 2020, 22:45
Sorry not to have acknowledged this before: great work. A delightful, puckish scherzo. Berger not taking himself at all seriously.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 06 May 2020, 23:14
Yes, it's rather spooky, isn't it? It's great to have this rendition - tells us so much more about Berger. Thanks!
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Reverie on Monday 07 September 2020, 15:41
The third movement of Berger's first symphony (Langsam) has the feel of a funeral procession which at times borders on the macabre; rendolent of Mahler perhaps? There are moments of great passion, the last of which subsides to a sweet, folorn phrase on the oboe fading into the final dying bars.

That's my attempt at a short programme note over! Here's the link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EwddihmQQqQ
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Monday 07 September 2020, 16:05
Thanks for doing this. I'll be giving it my fullest attention...
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: tpaloj on Monday 07 September 2020, 16:14
You're doing invaluable work Reverie! Thank you once more.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Mark Thomas on Monday 07 September 2020, 17:34
Oh, wonderful! I was hoping that you'd carry on and complete your work on this fine symphony.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Monday 07 September 2020, 17:55
This is, I am convinced, great music. For one thing, it clearly fits into the great Austro-German symphonic tradition, but it doesn't really sound like anyone else - in other words Berger is no epigone. What pathos, what anguish there is in this relatively brief movement.

This is clearly going to be in total a (roughly) 45-minute work. The first three movements come in at just over 33 minutes.

Thank you!
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Reverie on Friday 09 October 2020, 08:45
Here is the final movement.

It begins joyfully with a fugal exposition. Again it puts me in mind of Mahler. The wind section have prominence in a military type march.

After the erratic / elfin-like development the movement ends triumphantly.


I make no apologies for repeating my claim that Wilhelm is one of the most original, accomplished unsung composers.

The link:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLm7PaXC9VE
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Friday 09 October 2020, 09:11
Great - thanks. A 47-minute symphony, then.

I really don't hear much Mahler in Berger, however. If there are likenesses, they are purely coincidental, in my view. What Berger entirely lacks is the sarcasm that one finds in Mahler; his is much more straightforward sensibility. It's true that there are 'spooky', even martial episodes in this finale, but we don't have to attribute these to any Mahlerian influences. Spookiness, after all, is part of the very warp and woof of musical romanticism, from Weber onwards.

Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: tpaloj on Saturday 10 October 2020, 08:15
So now it's finally possible to listen to the full symphony from beginning to end. Thank you a lot for your hard work Reverie. I see you've already made a playlist of the full work, which is helpful to have.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLimfvh-IS22wQtyRLau5Sy7O86jlrhYV0 (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLimfvh-IS22wQtyRLau5Sy7O86jlrhYV0)
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Justin on Wednesday 21 July 2021, 15:23
This week I am on vacation in Switzerland, and today I had the pleasure of listening to a radio recording of this symphony with the Basler Orchester-Gesellschaft, conducted by Hans Vogt. It dates from June 15, 1959.

It is performed well, especially the third movement with that funeral aspect. It sounds fantastic with little hiss. Unfortunately it is only available for listening at one of the Swiss National Sound Archive computer stations located throughout the country.

If this was reissued as a historical recording, I think it would certainly prove quite popular. Of course it still deserves a modern recording.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 21 July 2021, 15:37
What a shame the recording isn't more generally available, but then the same is true of many recordings in the Swiss National Sound Archive.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 21 July 2021, 17:26
How frustrating! Wonder why the recording couldn't be licensed for general release? Vogt died in 1992.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: eschiss1 on Wednesday 21 July 2021, 18:45
Isn't that assuming the same laws for c apply for recordings as for print things? This is not true for copyright in the US, where first publication 96 years ago means (1925 or earlier, now) or 1922, whichever is first, means nonrenewability for scores and poems/novels afaik but not sound recordings.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Justin on Friday 23 July 2021, 02:22
Quote from: Alan Howe on Wednesday 21 July 2021, 17:26
How frustrating! Wonder why the recording couldn't be licensed for general release? Vogt died in 1992.

Yes it is. The third movement was performed at roughly the same tempo as Martin's realization, but of course with the gorgeous sound of authentic strings. It's stuck in my head and I am back in the US which makes it even more annoying to grasp.  :-\
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Justin on Friday 23 July 2021, 02:32
Quote from: eschiss1 on Wednesday 21 July 2021, 18:45
Isn't that assuming the same laws for c apply for recordings as for print things?.

The Archive states that it is a SRF 2 (Swiss radio station) recording. Any inquiries would have to be made to them rather than the Archive.

I also recall hearing some movement of chairs/players adjusting their seating, so it may have been a live recording somewhere.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: eschiss1 on Friday 23 July 2021, 02:43
btw here (https://www3.carleton.ca/admv/program1898.html) is the basically direct evidence I kept looking for of a 1898 performance.
I let slide the opportunity to describe Berger as a true Boston Bremen, so I might as well now.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: semloh on Friday 23 July 2021, 23:50
... to describe Berger as a true Boston Bremen.

What does that mean, Eric?
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: eschiss1 on Saturday 24 July 2021, 14:51
A pun with "Boston Brahmin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boston_Brahmin)" (Wikipedia link) - a pun linked with the fact that he was born in Boston though his family very very soon after moved (back, I believe) to Bremen.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Justin on Saturday 24 July 2021, 14:58
We're not that cultured, Eric.  ;D

Very clever pun though!
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: eschiss1 on Saturday 24 July 2021, 15:02
I doubt I'd have heard the term if it didn't sometimes come up when the "New England School" is mentioned (and a look at that Wikipedia page doesn't mention any of them, so maybe it's used figuratively, or maybe it's a partial list of the "Boston Brahmin" families. Chadwick is sometimes mentioned in that connection, for instance. Anyway!...)
One thing about Berger, btw, is that a search for Wilhelm Berger brings up a few people- the Romanian composer of the same name, for instance. Anyway, do we know much about Berger biographically?
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Rainolf on Saturday 24 July 2021, 16:15
The standard book about Berger seems to be (I have not read it):

Wilhelm Berger. Komponist - Dirigent - Pianist, edited by Irmlind Capelle and Maren Goltz, Allitera Verlag 2013.

https://www.allitera-verlag.de/buch/wilhelm-berger-1861-1911-komponist-%C2%96-dirigent-%C2%96-pianist/


There is an older book about Berger's early years in Bremen, too:

Klaus Reinhardt: Wilhelm Berger. Eine Musiker-Jugend in Bremen, Verlag Hauschild 1989.

The appendix contains facsimiles of some early compositions and a short story by Wilhelm Berger sen.


Is it known if Berger ever travelled to America as a grown up? I have not found any source that he saw his native town again. It seems that he is connected to Boston only in the way as Pfitzner is connected to Moscow and Wilhelm Petersen to Athens.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: eschiss1 on Saturday 24 July 2021, 16:27
Don't know. He did travel to Bournemouth to conduct both his symphonies during the 1902/3 season if I'm understanding something I'm reading (and according to the Musical News of November 1, 1902, the 2nd's first performance in England.)-- not the USA, but outside of German-speaking territory :)
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: semloh on Monday 02 August 2021, 11:16
Thanks, Eric. A new term to add to my glossary of Americanisms.  ;)
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Richard Moss on Friday 02 September 2022, 12:16
Having recently enjoyed listening to Martin's excellent rendition of this work, I was looking (via Google) for any further notes as to its background and structure and came across this link:   https://repertoire-explorer.musikmph.de/wp-content/uploads/vorworte_prefaces/1936.html

This gives a lengthy background to Berger and his music and a detailed account of the symphony itself (but with no extant recording to refer to, I presume the review of the work was based on the published score?)

Cheers

Richard
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Friday 02 September 2022, 20:35
QuoteI presume the review of the work was based on the published score?

Well, it is the Foreword to the edition of the score published by Musikproduktion Hoeflich in 2017, so not really a review as such.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Richard Moss on Saturday 03 September 2022, 11:48
Gareth,

Thanks for the clarification.  The reason I made the post was that, as a rank musical amateur, I was pleased at finding 'in-depth' information on a work for which there is no CD (whereas CDs usually have booklet notes from the label - e.g. NAXOS, HYPERION, CHANDOS - or reviews - e.g. MUSICWEB - from which I can get a better understanding of what I am listening to (it is now some 65 years since I was in my early teens and stopped playing the piano and listening to music with the score in front of me, so sadly I can no longer read a score - my fault!). 

Anyway, the comments from yourself (and all the other 'professional' contributors to UC) are very much appreciated.

Best wishes

Richard 
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: terry martyn on Saturday 03 September 2022, 11:59
Echoed, Richard!
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 02 March 2023, 22:55
Here is Martin's wonderful rendition of the entire work:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xFXCf1xTF8
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Mark Thomas on Friday 03 March 2023, 07:26
It couldn't be more welcome.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: M. Yaskovsky on Saturday 18 March 2023, 14:30
https://www.clicmusique.com/wilhelm-berger-symphonie-concerto-pour-piano-triendl-schuldt-p-109724.html?osCsid=9tk8s617e4000i8u58q51t1rt5
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: John Boyer on Saturday 18 March 2023, 14:38
Can it be? It's not even on JPC yet, and CPO is their house label.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: eschiss1 on Saturday 18 March 2023, 15:17
I don't think I was aware of the concertpiece :)
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Saturday 18 March 2023, 16:51
Oh, wow! How fantastic. From Clic Musique:

(https://www.clicmusique.com/covers/front/0761203546220.jpg)
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Mark Thomas on Saturday 18 March 2023, 19:03
What great news. Quite the tonic!
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Saturday 18 March 2023, 21:40
In case the artists involved are difficult to make out from the copied image of the CD, they are:
Oliver Triendl (who else?!), with the Württembergische Philharmonie Reutlingen, conducted by the young German conductor, Clemens Schuldt.

Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Justin on Sunday 19 March 2023, 01:18
Very excellent news indeed! The only recording I have heard is a radio broadcast in mono from 1959, so looking forward to hearing this for the first time in glorious stereo.

Mark/Alan: Are you aware of CPO learning about some of these composers through this forum? Sometimes the timing is coincidental in my opinion, especially since this was recorded in 2020-21; the same time Martin digitized the piece.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Mark Thomas on Sunday 19 March 2023, 07:30
I'm not aware that cpo know about UC, but it would certainly make sense for them to monitor us if they do. Perhaps, if someone with links to cpo is out there, they could raise their hand?
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Sunday 19 March 2023, 08:54
When I have a spare moment I'll email cpo.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Ilja on Monday 20 March 2023, 11:25
If Martin Walsh's version of the symphony is anything to go by, that would mean that the Konzertstück is an untypically (for the genre) substantial, half-hour piece.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Monday 20 March 2023, 13:07
Naxos here in the UK have a release date of 5th May:
https://naxosdirect.co.uk/items/wilhelm-berger-konzertstuck-op.-43a-for-piano-and-orchestra-symphony-op.-71-in-b-flat-major-603489

Interestingly, the Konzertstück (which has been given the opus no. 43a) doesn't appear in the list of works included in Gustav Ernst's biography of the composer published in 1931. The clue is in Naxos' blurb:
<<His Konzertstuck Op. 43a remained unprinted - or cannot be acquired in print to this day.>>

I wonder how the score (presumably in manuscript?) came to light.

By the way, the piece is clearly named in Oliver Triendl's repertoire:
https://www.oliver-triendl.com/english/repertoire-oliver-triendl-orchester.php

Perhaps I ought to contact him?

Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Monday 20 March 2023, 13:35
As an aside, the Konzert-Allegro Op. 9 (1893) for piano & orchestra by Anton Beer-Walbrunn (1864-1929), which was, until recently, available only in ms. and does not appear in his Wikipedia work list, is a similarly substantial one movt. work lasting about half an hour. Admittedly, not titled "Konzertstuck" but the title carrying the similar suggestion of a shorter work than Op. 9 actually is.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Wheesht on Monday 20 March 2023, 13:44
You beat me to it, I too thought of the Beer-Walbrunn work right away.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Monday 20 March 2023, 15:00
How do we know what size the Konzertstück might be? Have I missed something?
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Monday 20 March 2023, 16:31
Well, the clicmusique link at the start of this thread gives the total playing time of the CD as just under 1 hr 17 mins. Reverie's realisation of the Symphony lasts 47 mins, or thereabouts, which, if it is accurate, would mean the Konzertstuck coming in at something under 30 minutes. All this is, of course, conjecture and, if the clicmusique timing is wrong (and such errors have been known, as readers of this forum are aware) we could be looking at a shorter work.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Monday 20 March 2023, 17:49
Aha! That's what I had missed. Yes, so the Konzertstück might well come in at roughly half an hour - a substantial work indeed.

I have emailed Oliver Triendl, by the way...
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Monday 20 March 2023, 20:24
Thank you. If you make contact I wonder if you could ask him if he knows if there are any plans for commercial CD releases of his performances of the PCs of Ewald Straesser and Friedrich Gernsheim (both on You Tube at present), and what is happening about the PC of Conrad Ansorge which, I understand, Cpo were rumoured to have been due to record with him as soloist (please correct me if am wrong here).
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Monday 20 March 2023, 20:43
I will indeed.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Monday 20 March 2023, 20:52
Much appreciated, Alan.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: cypressdome on Monday 20 March 2023, 23:49
It appears that the Max-Reger-Archiv holds three manuscripts (scores and parts) of the Konzertstück which are described here: D-MEIr BI5 (https://opac.rism.info/search?id=201012173&View=rism), D-MEIr BI6 (https://opac.rism.info/search?id=201012144&View=rism), and D-MEIr B17 (https://opac.rism.info/search?id=201012145&View=rism).
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Tuesday 21 March 2023, 10:55
The work appears to date from 1888.

Wikipedia has this:
<< Between 1878 and 1884, Berger studied at the Royal Conservatory in Berlin, under Ernst Rudorff (piano) and Friedrich Kiel (counterpoint). From 1888 to 1903, he was a teacher at the Klindworth-Scharwenka Conservatory, a function which he combined, from 1899, with the chief conductorship of the Berlin Musical Society. In addition, he was very active as a concert pianist.>>
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilhelm_Berger    (my emphasis)
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: eschiss1 on Tuesday 21 March 2023, 13:52
Since some major works of Berger's were in manuscript at least until recently (cello sonata op.28 iirc) I guess this is another that disappeared, either after failing to find a publisher or without his trying...
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: terry martyn on Thursday 23 March 2023, 10:28
The CD ,at a price of 14.99 euros, has finally surfaced at jpc  (who have also reduced the price of the Goltermann Symphony to the same anount).
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 23 March 2023, 12:28
I've ordered it! Thanks!

Here's the link to the release and audio samples:
https://www.jpc.de/jpcng/cpo/detail/-/art/wilhelm-berger-symphonie-b-dur-op-71/hnum/11173726

(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w340/front/0/0761203546220.jpg)
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: eschiss1 on Thursday 23 March 2023, 13:04
Guessing from the samples that track 1 is the concertpiece :)
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: hyperdanny on Thursday 23 March 2023, 14:44
the sound samples are extremely tantalizing...
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: terry martyn on Thursday 23 March 2023, 14:57
A must-buy for me. I have also ordered it (along with the Goltermann).
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 23 March 2023, 17:58
Quote from: eschiss1 on Thursday 23 March 2023, 13:04Guessing from the samples that track 1 is the concertpiece :)

Precisely so.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Justin on Thursday 23 March 2023, 19:53
Since I live in the States and happy with the digital format, I'll wait for Presto to put the MP3s on sale.

Has anyone read his biography by Capelle and Goltz?
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Mark Thomas on Thursday 23 March 2023, 20:27
Mine's on order too.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 23 March 2023, 20:44
Jpc will be wondering what's going on!
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Mark Thomas on Thursday 23 March 2023, 22:13
Maybe a rush on it will encourage them not to delay a recording of Symphony No.2!
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Thursday 23 March 2023, 22:54
Amen to that.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: John Boyer on Friday 24 March 2023, 01:50
Quote from: Justin on Thursday 23 March 2023, 19:53Since I live in the States and happy with the digital format, I'll wait for Presto to put the MP3s on sale.

JPC's shipping charges to the United States are quite low. On a typical 2 CD order from them the charge is just over $4.00.  And on a recent 15 CD order it was $9.31.  That's better than I can get domestic. 
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Justin on Friday 24 March 2023, 04:12
Album can be purchased for immediate download on Presto Music:

https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9473403--konzertstuck-op-43a-symphony-op-71 (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9473403--konzertstuck-op-43a-symphony-op-71)

John, yes the shipping price is quite reasonable. I've purchased from JPC before but have forgotten how low it was.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Mark Thomas on Friday 24 March 2023, 09:12
Download already available? That's annoying! Too late now to cancel my order for the CD.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Friday 24 March 2023, 11:11
Timings:
Symphony No.1: 46:24 (Reverie's realisation - 46:58!)
Konzertstück: 30:16 (definitely a substantial piece!)

Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Mark Thomas on Friday 24 March 2023, 11:59
Indeed, the Konzertstück is a real bonus.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: hyperdanny on Friday 24 March 2023, 14:21
Actually, the sample 1 was a jolt to me..wonderfully dark and dramatic
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Friday 24 March 2023, 22:48
Oliver Triendl has kindly replied to my email. This is what he says about the Konzertstück:

<<The Concert Piece is quite on the long side (for a concert piece) with some 30 minutes of duration - good piece!! As far as I know the piece was never published. The manuscript was found in Meiningen and cpo engraved the music specially for this recording.>>

Gareth: I have asked him about Straesser, Gernsheim and Ansorge.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Justin on Saturday 25 March 2023, 04:30
Having listened to the whole album, I can say that the most accessible part is the Andante from the Symphony. Berger is very skilled at providing melancholy to his slow movement just like his second symphony, and although the initial theme is a bit repetitive, he covers it with different textures each iteration to keep it fresh. With the pizzicato of the lower strings, it reminds me of a murky cloudy day with soft raindrops.

The Concert Piece features the piano and unfortunately it didn't grab me at first listen, mainly because it sounds unstructured in my opinion. There are many ideas in it and perhaps I need to listen several times to fully grasp it. The introduction is a great setting of things to come, with somber yet atmospheric strings. "Atmosphere above all," as George Templeton Strong wrote on his later compositions!

The rest of the symphony is pleasant but it is constantly evolving that it cannot be fully comprehended in one setting. Looking forward to future listenings.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Tuesday 04 April 2023, 12:22
Apart from the qualities of the Symphony itself, I think the wider question that this marvellous work poses is what happened to the symphonic tradition in the broad Austro-German tradition in the wake of Mahler.

To be frank, I am heartily sick of the 'Mahler phenomenon' in the recording industry. There are far too many unnecessary recordings being made - and all this does is to add ever more pages of reviews, thereby squeezing out any proper reflection on the wider symphonic repertoire. Of course, it was ever thus, but there must come a point when we must cry: "No more!"

And so to this superb Symphony by Berger...
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 06 April 2023, 11:52
The Symphony might perhaps be described as post-Brahmsian, i.e. composed in the more conservative classical tradition, but we need to be careful because initially Berger regarded Wagner as the pre-eminent composer of the 19th century (calling him the 'greatest genius currently alive') rather than Brahms, so it would seem that 'post-Brahmsian' is actually an insufficient characterisation. The impish scherzo here, for example, doesn't sound like anything Brahms would have written. (It must, however, be made clear that Berger later warmed to Brahms, considering the latter's 4th Symphony the greatest since Beethoven.)

Berger was certainly not as radical as his almost exact contemporary Mahler, but is his music any less valuable? For me, after years of being assaulted by the Mahler phenomenon as if there's no other worthwhile music in the broad Austro-German symphonic tradition in the period 1888-1911, it's balm to the ears to discover a composer who proceeds compositionally in a less confrontational, more subtle manner every bit as masterfully as his great contemporary. So, when he 'hits' you, as he does in the slow movement, it's all the more powerful for emerging from a more restrained emotional musical setting.

Our culture today probably responds to a composer who 'lets it all hang out', but count me out!
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: terry martyn on Thursday 06 April 2023, 12:39
Just finished my first playthrough.  There is a lot of meat to the bones, and it will require several more hearings before I can form a definite opinion.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Thursday 06 April 2023, 17:10
The contrast with Symphony No.2 is pretty extreme. The latter is a much richer, more chromatic, more 'Wagnerian' work than No.1. On this evidence it can hadly be said that Berger repeated himself - he most certainly did not. The mark, surely, of a composer of the first rank.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: terry martyn on Friday 07 April 2023, 10:43
This is a very fine work indeed.

You have to sit down somewhere, without distractions, and listen very carefully. You will be rewarded, as this symphony will grow on you.  It is easier,first of all, to say what this is not. Not Brahmsian,Brucknerian,or Wagnerian. Not Leipzig School. Berger is his own man and this is not a derivative symphony, although I doubt whether he would have composed the second and third movements without a thorough knowledge of Mendelssohn.

I am not sure that this work would go down  comfortably with the paying public in the concert hall. It seems to me to be a work to provoke thought in solitude. Not that it is without melody: far from that, as one of the themes of the finale has stuck in my head. It is simply a work by someone who rises above the superficial and the merely well-crafted, and speaks to the soul.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Friday 07 April 2023, 11:49
Here's my take:

Name a composer from the period who wrote two equally masterful but very different symphonies within a couple of years of each other. I can only think of.................Elgar.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Ilja on Sunday 09 April 2023, 13:46
If we're talking about rapid development, Sibelius immediately springs to mind, from Kullervo > Lemminkaïnen (when we consider that to be a symphony) > First symphony > Second symphony, all within a timespan of a decade. Rachmaninoff is a contender, too.

However, can we tell when Berger started work on the 1st symphony? The publication date doesn't necessarily mean all that much if it was preceded by a Brahms-esque gestation period, and the work doesn't sound particularly advanced for its time. I purchased the recording as a download, which unusually did not include a booklet PDF.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: eschiss1 on Sunday 09 April 2023, 14:08
We know the first symphony was performed (perhaps premiered) in 1898, so the 1899 publication date tells us less than we think to start with, and I don't know if manuscripts or correspondence exist to give a date when he began work on it or finished it.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Sunday 09 April 2023, 17:18
I'm talking about composers who wrote only two symphonies within a period of no more than 3-4 years, i.e a pair of mature, contrasting symphonies.

Berger's 1st was composed 1896-7, according to his biographer Gustav Ernest, p.119. His 2nd was first performed in May 1900 under Weingartner.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: eschiss1 on Monday 10 April 2023, 20:12
Thanks!
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: eschiss1 on Wednesday 26 April 2023, 12:05
Belatedly, there's an earlier thread on this topic we may want to merge.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 26 April 2023, 15:02
Your wish...
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: John Boyer on Monday 08 May 2023, 00:35
My first impression was that of a large scale tone poem rather than a symphony. Even Mahler's sprawling forms are more symphonic in structure, I thought. And how unusual, I thought, to begin it with an almost Wagnerian adagio. Finally, the whole symphony seemed to go by in a flash, seemingly half as long as the 46 minutes billed on the back of the jewel case.

Then it hit me. This is a CPO recording. How often, John, have you had to dismantle the jewel case insert of a CPO issue and paste in the correct track numbers and timings? Sure enough, I had decided to listen to the symphony first and started it at track 4, which the back of the jewel case says is the beginning...but which the booklet informs us is actually the third movement.

OK, Johnny, let's try that again.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: eschiss1 on Monday 08 May 2023, 02:36
Weird. And the tracking @ this download site (https://www.prostudiomasters.com/album/page/176606) is weird in a different way. But yes, why would cpo list the concertpiece as taking 3 tracks?
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: John Boyer on Monday 08 May 2023, 03:28
Quote from: eschiss1 on Monday 08 May 2023, 02:36But yes, why would cpo list the concertpiece as taking 3 tracks?

They just goofed, that's all.  I was a bit annoyed because I didn't want to restart the symphony from the beginning, so I switched to an old MDG recording of Krenek's 8th string quartet to clear my head.  Just last week I fixed a CPO recording of Eduard Erdmann's 4th symphony, which, like the Berger, is correct in the booklet but incorrect on the insert. 
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Monday 08 May 2023, 18:44
They certainly goofed. The Symphony starts at track 2.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Wednesday 24 May 2023, 17:55
But don't be put off. Personally, I am all Mahlered-out (so to speak) so this wonderfully proportioned and memorable symphony is a real tonic for those looking for something a bit less fraught and a bit more thoughtful. Mind you, the slow movement is something else - a real cri de coeur made all the more moving for its relative restraint.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Saturday 01 July 2023, 22:29
Here's an interesting review at Amazon:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Wilhelm-Berger-Konzertstuck-orchestra-Symphony/dp/B0BYR5F945/ref=sr_1_2?crid=3HOPAP43YMTPW&keywords=wilhelm+berger&qid=1688246772&sprefix=wilhelm+berger%2Caps%2C97&sr=8-2

<<Wilhelm Berger ( 1861 -1911 ), not to be confused with the later composer, Wilhelm Georg Berger, was born in Boston, U.S.A. in 1861 but his family moved back to Germany shortly after his birth. He was a child prodigy and had a number of compositions published when he was in his late teens. In 1878 he enrolled at the Royal Academy in Berlin, eventually becoming an instructor himself. From the following year he taught at the Scharwenka Conservatory, remaining there after the institute merged with Karl Klindworth's school in 1893. He died in 1911, at the age of 49, after complications resulting from a stomach operation. During his short life he produced a considerable body of music, mostly art songs and choral works.

The "product description" on this page says that Berger's music points the way towards Reger. Well, perhaps, but you won't think of Reger as you listen. The main influences on the "Konzertstück for piano and orchestra", Op. 43a, which was only Berger's second orchestral piece, are the early German Romantics, Schumann in particular. This really is a very fine piece, strong thematically and very well worked out. It easily sustains its half hour length. There is no real originality but this is good, solid music which, had it been written by a composer of repute, would have entered the repertory. Instead it has never even been published. This Konzertstück is, broadly speaking, a sonata structure. The lengthy introduction ( make sure you pick up the opening six note motif ) contains the seeds of the principal theme, a fine extended melody first heard at 3' 57". Many other ideas are included in the mix, the most important of which is heard at 7' 13". Its opening five notes are to feature prominently in various guises. What may be termed the exposition concluded with a tutti at 10' 8". It may be a good idea to listen to this section a few times before you proceed as the highly imaginative and ingenious development which follows may otherwise seem a little aimless. In fact, it is anything but. Although Berger was classed as one of the "Berlin Academics" there is no trace of academicism here. What may be termed the recapitulation begins at 18' 15", the principal theme now in the lower strings. The main subsidiary idea returns at 21' 49". There is a substantial cadenza, notable for its lack of empty rhetoric although Berger does allow himself a burst of double octaves towards the end. The subsidiary melody returns poetically and is then transformed into a scherzo-like variant, bringing the music to a rousing virtuoso conclusion. This is a terrific piece and Oliver Triendel, that great champion of forgotten German composers, and the Württemberg Orchestra do it full justice. Don't miss it!

The First Symphony, which was premiered in 1898, is another fine work. However, though strong melodically and very well written, it is a very lightweight work emotionally and it is hardly surprising that, although it was often played before World War 1, it disappeared from the repertory soon afterwards. It must have seemed like a relic of a bygone age. To a modern audience, though, it may come as a welcome change from all the serious angst-ridden symphonies of the time. Again there is very little originality here and you can have fun spotting the influences...Dvorak is, perhaps, the most obvious one. Brahms, Tchaikovsky and Mendelssohn are also present. The 14 1/2 first movement is built on two lyrical melodies. The second theme, first heard on a clarinet, is particularly lovely. It is soon repeated by the lower strings. I haven't been able to see a score but there is, I imagine, an exposition repeat indicated at 5' 43". The development section does manage to generate a little tension. The recapitulation begins at 8' 56". This time the flutes are given the second theme before it is taken over by the lower strings. The tempo picks up for the final bars.

The spirit of Mendelssohn or Raff hovers over the 9 minute scherzo. Its perky principal idea is contrasted with a more lyrical phrase. The central section is not a formal trio but is instead built on a variant of the main idea. This is another fine movement, colourful and entertaining. It avoids entirely the sectional feel that is characteristic of symphonic scherzi.

The easy lyricism of the 10 minute slow movement will make you think of Dvorak. ( Its textures and harmonic progressions kept reminding of the Romance for Violin and Orchestra, Op.11 ). A more chromatic idea adds a little stiffness to the proceedings. Later the woodwind writing decorating the string lines is very much in the manner of Tchaikovsky. Again, throughout this movement, Berger is at pains to disguise structural divisions.

The "Berlin academic" begins his 12 1/2" finale with a short fugue built on another perky idea. Again there is some contrasting lyrical material, heard in various guises. ( Berger knew something of Lisztian thematic transformation. ) This is another expanded sonata structure, the development section beginning at 4' 06". Later, a fanfare adds a certain amount of gravitas but it makes little difference; the music retains its high spirits. The symphony concludes with a march-like variant of the main idea. The performance is excellent and it has been beautifully recorded.

The Konzertstück demands to be heard, then, but the symphony is also worth returning to on those days when a Mahlerian roller-coaster is not what you need. By the way, for a great Romantic symphony which will boost your spirits, try Ludolf Nielsen's second....the "Symphony of Joy".>>
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Sunday 02 July 2023, 08:53
It's a perceptive review of the Symphony. However, the assessment of the slow movement seriously underestimates its poignancy, made all the more moving by the positivity of the surrounding movements.
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Mark Thomas on Sunday 02 July 2023, 12:12
It's a fair review. I can't say that I feel the First Symphony has the stature or originality of the Second, enjoyable though it undoubtedly is, and the reviewer gives an accurate impression of it. For me, the Konzertstück was a slow burn and I didn't initially warm to it at all but I now appreciate it's thematic quality and Berger's sheer craft in incorporating such variety within a large single movement structure whilst maintaining a recognisably formal structure. It's a very strong work.   
Title: Re: Wilhelm Berger - Symphony No.1 Op.71
Post by: Alan Howe on Sunday 02 July 2023, 13:48
The two symphonies are very different from each other. The composer's biographer, Gustav Ernst, comments on the happy circumstances during which Berger composed his 1st Symphony which are reflected in the work itself.

For anyone who hasn't heard the symphony, the cpo recording can be heard on YouTube, here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fh3hPDLVREQ
(The glorious and very touching slow movement starts at 24:00)