Has anyone else noticed the frequency with which BBC Radio 3 now broadcasts the music of Florence Price, usually accompanied by the host expressing amazement at how good her music is, or astonishment that it has lain unheard for so long? Now, I really don't have a problem with Price's music, it's pleasant if hardly exceptional, but it is galling that she is now getting such a disproportionate amount of attention when there are so many better unsung composers and compositions out there deserving at least a portion of the air time she's now receiving. Maybe I'm unduly cynical, but perhaps the fact that programming her music (as opposed to, say, that of William Grant Still or Samuel Coleridge Taylor) enables the BBC to tick not one but two "woke" boxes has something to do with it?
I quite agree. She's a minor talent who's now being overexposed. Enough!
Funny you mentioned it now, just yesterday was I prompted to Price's Symphonies by my sister -- and YouTube keeps recommending it to me, too. I was struck by the extreme similarity of the 1st movement of the first to Dvořák's 9th. But as I quite liked it, that was ok for me -- some commentator said it is the answer to Dvořák from the community he depicted, maybe that has a point. What struck me more was the shortness of movements 3&4, as if she had lost interest in the Symphony and wanted to get it done. No counterweight to the long 1st and 2d movements
Partly this is true to Symphony 4 as well. Does anyone know more about this or why she did that?
Apart from that, I like Dawson's Negro folk Symphony better, too. But as history and the society of the time have given us so few women composers, this pool of talent is of course limited, who knows how many genius women did not ever get the chance to become a composer.
Ticking two boxes at once might of course be a thing, now as we start to want to represent the diversity of society, and I can understand this -- how must it feel as a black person or woman that every single well-known composer is an "old white man". But I think the resemblance to Dvořák might actually an important point too, this might make people continue to listen even though they might not know the composer.
But in defence of Price, I must say I enjoyed Price 1 probably just as much as Amy Beach's Gaelic Symphony which I consider a fine work (well and which is probably not played on BBC that often?).
Best wishes, ewk
I'd say Amy Beach was a far finer composer than Florence Price - the Gaelic Symphony is proof of that.
ewk wrote:
QuoteBeach's Gaelic Symphony which I consider a fine work (well and which is probably not played on BBC that often?)
Oddly enough, Beach was BBC Radio 3's Composer of the Week sometime in January and they played at least a couple of its movements. Price was COTW a few months ago. My point about her isn't that she's a black woman composer, but that there are better composers who are women and better ones who are black, people who in each case deserve more exposure than Price is currently getting, which I suspect is a result of Radio 3's policy of encouraging ethnic and gender diversity. Of course, I have no problem at all with that aim provided it doesn't compromise the quality of what's broadcast, which it needn't, but Price might be regarded as an "easy win" in that respect.
As to Price's first Symphony, yes, it's debt in the first two movements to Dvorak's New World is very clear but I have no idea whether that was deliberate, although I suspect not.
Three hours ago I was in complete ignorance of Price's music but thought I might give her a try as background to the Saturday Times. After two symphonies and a violin concerto I can sincerely say I find her quite charming! I wouldn't think of it in terms of good/better/best, just that a real American personality comes through, you could say naive but I'd say unaffected and attractively folksy. I may not make a point of hearing any of these pieces again, but not being a frequent Radio 3 listener I'm not in danger of becoming jaded!
Maybe that's it, I'm just jaded!
has Composer of the Week ever featured Farrenc? I believe they did do a good series on Pejacevic once, and good on them for it.
Yes, Pejacevic was featured last year and Auguste Holmés also shared the slot with Henri Duparc. I'm fairly sure Farrenc was covered a few years ago.
Quote from: eschiss1 on Saturday 06 February 2021, 12:09
has Composer of the Week ever featured Farrenc? I believe they did do a good series on Pejacevic once, and good on them for it.
I've noticed that Classicfm have played Farrenc quite a bit recently. It's a welcome change from Rach PC2 every 30 minutes...
Recently I ran across a Classicfm article about 30 of the Greatest Composers. Period. https://www.classicfm.com/composers/greatest-classical-music-history/ (https://www.classicfm.com/composers/greatest-classical-music-history/). Two women: Hildegard von Bingen and Amy Beach. No Florence Price.
As much as I love the Beach symphony, I really have trouble putting her in that august company (of course, I wouldn't put Philip Glass their either). As far as Price goes, she had talent and face difficulties many white, male composers didn't. But in music, only the best survives and if she wasn't black and/or female I doubt her music would draw any interest. I sat through a live performance of her First Symphony two years ago and wasn't impressed - it got worse as it went on. My feelings then - as I told several orchestra players and the conductor - were that there are many much better symphonies that await rediscovery or performance. But since they were written Dead, White, European Males, we'll never hear them. The conductor, to his credit, did say someday he wants to play a Raff symphony!
Wow... *rolls eyes*
A list like that is worthless. It does what it sets out to do....list 30 of the greatest composers in classical music history...but what does that tell us? 30 of a thousand or a million? If it said "the 30 greatest composers in classical music history", something which casual readers may think it does, we could reasonably wonder where Nielsen, Puccini, Sibelius, Prokofiev or Massenet are, for example. ( You'd think that Puccini of all people would be included in a list compiled by Classic FM. ) I'm afraid that both Hildegard of Bingen and Mrs Beach are included purely for political reasons.
I know that we don't want to get embroiled in a political argument here but we must all be aware of the political agenda which so often determines decision making in the arts these days.....decisions which have to follow that agenda if accusations of racism or sexism ( and the subsequent risk of defunding ) are to be avoided. Excellent though "unsung" music already has more than enough hurdles to overcome if it is to be heard.
That list is sadly ridiculous. Every one of us would have different list but John Williams? Bernstein over Copland?
No Prokofiev, but Rachmaninoff? Hildegard over anybody? We could go on and on and on. These stupid lists tend to lock the newcomer into limiting greatness to list. What makes greatness anyway? Now there's a thread!
And with that, back to Florence Price, please...
Is anyone aware, beyond last year's COTW and her currently recorded repertoire, are there any more of her orchestral works (e.g. from that 'recently discovered' treasure trove of her 'lost' works) in the pipeline, either to be recorded and/or performed live??
Cheers
Richard
Google search tells me that 2021 seems to have an International Florence Price Festival and an SLSO Florence Price Project in the works so quite possibly.
Eric,
Tks for the updt, Hopefully some of her previously unperformed/unheard works may get an airing then.
Richard
Actually, this post isn't about Florence Price's music. Mark's original post invited comments on her status as "darling" of the BBC. At least, in the days of William Glock ( who would hardly have been the "darling" of this forum ), decisions on what music to promote, however prejudiced they might have been, were based on musical rather than political considerations.
I don't think it is quite as easy as saying good music should be selected and played not on political grounds but on merit as some music has been ignored or judged bad in the past because of unconscious political bias. I don't give a fig for the colour, gender, class, or sexuality of a composer, but I am aware that some music is ignored or judged unfavourably because of the colour, gender, class, or sexuality of a composer.
QuoteSorry I don't remember how to insert quote
Copy and paste the words you want to quote, then highlight and press: (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/Themes/default/images/bbc/quote.gif)
Quote"I don't think it is quite as easy as saying good music should be selected and played not on political grounds but on merit as some music has been ignored or judged bad in the past because of unconscious political bias. I don't give a fig for the colour, gender, class, or sexuality of a composer, but I am aware that some music is ignored or judged unfavourably because of the colour, gender, class, or sexuality of a composer."
These days some music is judged favorably ( or, at least, given undue prominence ) because of various immutable characteristics of the composer. Florence Price is, surely, an example. She was, as Alan says, a "minor talent". Just because there may have been prejudice in the past that does not mean we should feel obliged to compensate for that now. Where would that end? Should we pay reparations to Price's descendants?! Surely we should always judge a piece of music according its own merits. Apart from anything else, it is very condescending to a composer to imply that, when judging a composition, considerations other than its inherent worth have to be taken into account.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Wednesday 10 February 2021, 12:44
QuoteSorry I don't remember how to insert quote
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Thanks Alan!
:)
Quotethere are better composers who are women and better ones who are black
Mark Thomas 6/2/21
Better "black women composers" (I will try and have a look) or better "women composers" and better "black" composers"?
:)
That would be hard to know. Anyone heard any of the operas of Shirley Graham DuBois?
I would add that to call Price a -minor- talent is, it very much seems to this novice, to over-react to her over-valuation rather than taking a neutral view. Her symphonies and some other works seem superior to Alice Smith's, at least- and probably on a level with those of some who have been probably rightly regarded as moderate, not minor, talents, here, save they perhaps did not commit the mortal sin of being over-promoted for reasons irritating to some readers of the forum.
QuoteHer symphonies and some other works seem superior to Alice Smith's
Hmm, I'm not sure where that gets us. If we're comparing her with other female composers - of whatever ethnicity - then I can think of a fair number who are ahead of her.
Anyway, I'm glad she's having her fifteen minutes of fame. She deserves that at least. But I doubt whether it'll be extended much beyond that - and, if it is, then wokeism will have triumphed over objective musical merit. IMHO, of course.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Wednesday 10 February 2021, 15:02Anyway, I'm glad she's having her fifteen minutes of fame. She deserves that at least. But I doubt whether it'll be extended much beyond that - and, if it is, then wokeism will have triumphed over objective musical merit. IMHO, of course.
I do not thing that I will bother with listening to this music then. Time is limited.
:)
I think her music has been worth listening to and I have enjoyed what I have heard. It just depends what one's priorities are in terms of music to be explored.
It might be worthwhile investigating what is available on YouTube...
Alan,
Good suggestion - a couple of items there caught my eye as previously 'unknowns' (to me) - (1) "Dances in the Canebreaks (1953) maybe one of the very last orchestral works she wrote before her death that same year and (2) Ethiopia's Shadow in America (1932).
Both are relatively short 'suites' and quite pleasant on the ear without being memorable. Is it me or do parts of some of her works sound a bit like forerunners to soundtracks to 1950s western films??
Cheers
Richard
Quotequite pleasant on the ear without being memorable
That's Price's hallmark IMHO.
That's not what I meant really...but the conversation seems to have moved on.
Methinks too many people are too worried about "woke".
After all this very forum might be considered "woke"- just in a different category.
Quote from: Double-A on Saturday 13 February 2021, 15:32
Methinks too many people are too worried about "woke".
After all this very forum might be considered "woke"- just in a different category.
What is "woke"...
???
Sorry, but let's not get into a discussion of this here. There's plenty of material around that explains the concept, e.g: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 13 February 2021, 16:57
Sorry, but let's not get into a discussion of this here. There's plenty of material around that explains the concept, e.g: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Woke
I did not understand the term until corrected. Thank you.
:)
No problem. Sometimes it's best to consult an external source rather than introduce a long digression here.
though for individual words I generally would have consulted Wikiquote first myself?... first, I say, yeah, both being acceptable.
Well, rather any half-decent external source than a lengthy digression here...
And having now had the lengthy digression anyway :), let's go back to Florence Price, if there's anything left to say....
They have been playing Price at concerts here in Boston and at Bard. It's the only think I like about wokeness. I'm now getting to hear some worthwhile music by lesser composers. Albany Symphony played Ethel Smyth's Concerto for Violin and French Horn last year just before the pandemic destroyed live music.
A composer I've seen described as France's "first significant female composer" (goodbye Farrenc?), Augusta Holmès, had a rare performance of her Irlande in New York City in 2018, too; such things are just good for unusual music performance in general. (I seem to recall a mention - in the New Yorker - of a Farrenc symphony being played in NYC not that long ago, now I think on it, also - though the key was mistakenly given as E major, which none of hers are in.)
The coverage of female composers on British radio as discussed here is mirrored in Australia. Every day we have our required dose of Price, Farrenc, Beach, or similar, accompanied ad nauseam by "terribly neglected", "newly discovered", "against the odds", etc - sadly all true - but also by "brilliant", "musical genius", "fantastic composer", "incredible work", "neglected masterpiece", and so on - the truth of which is not always obvious!
I agree completely with Alan's assessment of Price's music.
The names of the few truly impressive female composers fall way out of our sphere.
Maconchy, Grace Williams, Kaprilova to name only three. The composers mentioned previously are very minor and only of interest as
oddities IMHO.
Some, not all; Farrenc and a couple of others still were remarkably better. (And in more recent days I'd argue strongly for Bacewicz and some others probably in place of Maconchy or Williams, fine though Maconchy was, but it's true that's outside of our remit.)
QuoteThe composers mentioned previously are very minor and only of interest as oddities
I think that a rather harsh judgement. There clearly were some very talented women composers in the 19th century and of course in some, perhaps most, cases they were prevented from realising their full potential by the times they lived in. But not every newly-rediscovered woman composer was a stifled genius, as one might sometimes think from listening to the BBC, any more than every unsung black male composer, or indeed
any unsung composer from
any background was.
... and back to Florence Price. I see that Chandos will be issuing a CD with her Piano Quintet at the end of next month. It's a recording premiere. Full details and sound bites here (https://www.chandos.net/products/catalogue/CHAN%2020224).
I'd certainly go in to bat for Louise Farrenc, Clara Schumann, Emilie Mayer, Dora Pejačević, Amy Beach and Ethel Smyth. And probably for others too.
I would certainly say that Amy Beach was as good an American composer as any of her day. She certainly was versatile, and unlike many of her contemporaries (like Chadwick, whom I am very fond of as well) she experimented with style as she got older. Her works from the 1930s are nothing like most of her earlier music, which is people are familiar with, if they're familiar with her at all.
I have to say that her Symphony has always been a little problematic for me; much of the instrumentation is very heavy and it's a very hard work to balance as a conductor. The best performance of it I've ever heard was here in Rochester by the Rochester Philharmonic under Arild Remmereit in 2012; he really was able to get orchestral detail and colour out of it, and the finale was stunningly fiery. The Piano Concerto is much more nuanced in its orchestration, in my opinion, and easier to get to "sound".
The Florence Price bandwagon continues to roll: now DGG has issued a recording (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9252023--florence-price-symphonies-nos-1-3) of the First and Third Symphonies, with Yannick Nézet-Séguin conducting the Philadelphia Orchestra no less. I really don't begrudge her getting this recognition, but it's galling that so much music which is more deserving of mainstream exposure continues to be ignored. Very much a case of being in the right place at the right time, I fear.
Download only at Presto, I notice. And everywhere else.
What I would give to hear any one of a dozen or more (many more!) deserving symphonies given this treatment!
Well said, John, Alan and Mark!
The Philadelphia Inquirer has published an article about Nezet-Seguin's Price Project in 2020:
https://www.inquirer.com/arts/philadelphia-orchestra-florence-price-yannick-nezet-seguin-review-20201125.html
In this text pianist Michelle Cann is quoted with the following sentence:
"Florence Price is actually a symbol for so many lost voices."
There is an unintentional double meaning in this words.
Sorry, I'm being thick! Please explain the unintentional double meaning...
Butting in, I know, but what's being implied is that Price is a symbol, something which may not have much intrinsic value in and of itself, but which represents other things which do.
I must be exceptionally thick this morning.
As far as I can tell, Price is a (very) minor composer whose music has attracted attention not because of its breezy insouciance, but because she was a woman, and a black woman at that. Problem is, the operative word here is MINOR. Her music simply doesn't deserve this exalted level of treatment ahead of countless others that we all could name.
The world's gone mad.
As you say, but then my wokeness coefficient is as near zero as makes no odds.
I have a confession to make.
Her music is too Dvorak meets Joplin for me
QuoteDvorak meets Joplin
Brilliant! Expressed mathematically: Price = Dvorak + Joplin
Florence Price is a symbol for so many "lost voices" which remain lost to the concert repertory because they do not fit as well to political "Isms" as she does.
As the sound examples show, the new Deutsche Grammophon CD will present Price's symphonies very well recorded, played by a major orchestra under the baton of a famous conductor. Deutsche Grammophon has shown in the past that it is occasionally interested in non-standart repertory if a famous musician plays it, e.g. when Neeme Järvi recorded some symphonies by Maximilian Steinberg or Myaskovsky. In this way the Price recording of Nezet-Seguin fits to DG's (unfortunately too seldom) repertory excursions. - And it will be interesting to see if DG will continue the "Price Project" with other works, or if they will abandon it like Järvi's Steinberg and Myaskovsky projects.
But while in the case of Steinberg and Myaskovsky DG, for a short time, became a champion of really high quality unsung symphonies, the question can not be suppressed if Price's music does reach this level of quality. Is is interesting to read between the lines in the texts, written by her supporters. You feel that they are full of doubts which they want to suppress. So Alex Ross, in his article "The Rediscovery of Florence Price" invested nearly the half of space to question the question after musical greatness - he knows that Price's symphonies are not great music, but he does not want to concede this openly.
https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/02/05/the-rediscovery-of-florence-price
Yes, Florence Price could be a symbol for so many "lost voices", and as a symbol I suppose the quality of her music really doesn't matter. If her music remained 'lost', she could still be a symbol (and a more potent one in my view). But in this case, it is the music that counts, and the quality does matter. Her music is enjoying top rate performances and recordings, and must stand as music in its own right, not enhanced by any symbolic associations. Apologies if that's a bit opaque. In short, I agree with the views expressed by my colleagues!
Apparently DG plan to release the full set of Price's symphonies on CD at a later date (info from Record Review this morning [2nd October], BBC Radio 3).
I heard the Andante of the 3rd symphony on "Record Review" this morning on BBC Radio 3 and I have to agree - the music struck me as generally pleasant and my next thought (before I looked at the display on the radio) was "this sounds Dvorakian".
I shall give the whole work a listen at some point but I'm not going to rush out and buy the CD.
Exactly. In any case at present you can only rush out............and then rush back home and buy the download ;)
Good point Alan! :D
I have been reading through the scores of comments on Price´s work left on YouTube. And I listened again to the recording of her First. One guy summed up what he thought of the music in one word: Banal. The torrents of abuse he has received are disturbing and I was tempted to add a comment to the effect that superficially attractive pastiche does not mean that the Emperor really has new clothes. But I would probably be banned from YouTube for such heretical thoughts and forced to recant at the top of a stake.
Yes, best to keep your head down until the woke wave recedes, but the vitriol the comment attracted does go to show that the promotion of Price's music is nothing to do with its qualities as music, but is rather in furtherance of a political agenda.
This has just popped into my inbox from Naxos, announcing a new CD of Price's music (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9254732--florence-beatrice-price-symphony-no-3-in-c-minor-the-mississippi-river-ethiopias-shadow-in-america):
"Florence Price was one of the most versatile and accomplished American musicians of her generation whose unstoppable creativity and earliest successes were set against the backdrop of 1930s economic depression. The Third Symphony expresses aspects of Price's cultural heritage in a symphonic framework. Avoiding direct references to existing folk songs and dances, it creates highly distinctive African spiritual moods and uses the syncopated rhythms of the Juba in its jazzy third movement. This world premiere recording of Ethiopia's Shadow in America traces the American experience of enslaved Africans, while The Mississippi River suite quotes several famous spirituals, capturing the struggles of Black migration across the United States.
"It was a truly amazing experience recording these large-scale orchestral works by Florence Price with the outstanding ORF Vienna Radio Symphony Orchestra. The musicians did an amazing job bringing Price's vivid scores to life. Her popularity as a concert composer has virtually exploded in recent years due to audiences embracing her unique musical style. The depth of the American experience is depicted in her music like no other composer. I can't wait for music lovers to hear this new release of three very powerful works by the first recognized female African-American concert composer."
"one of the most versatile and accomplished American musicians of her generation" and "The depth of the American experience is depicted in her music like no other composer." Really? What utter delusionary twaddle.
The fact that the word 'amazing' appears twice within the space of a few lines is enough to put me off the CD. Everything mediocre these days is 'amazing'.
Let's stop saying the same thing over and over here, lest it be misconstrued. And moderators no need for a last word, resist!
I understand your reasoning, but the problem is that the 'woke brigade' has hijacked the cause of a minor composer, thus inflating her importance out of all proportion. While appreciating her music for what it is, let's not make it into something it isn't.
IIRC, it is a few years since her symphonies 1, 3 & 4 appeared on one CD or another but (still?) no sign of no. 2! I was hoping it was among those scores in her 'recently' found treasure trove. I agree she is over-hyped - her music is pleasant, embossed with Negro and Western (i.e. 'cowboy') influences and whilst I enjoy listening to her works, like many 2nd division composers, that is all.
Like everybody else on (in?) this forum I suspect, we all feel race religion, gender etc. does not, of itself, make music good or bad - but merely provides interest in its origin where the circumstances of how it came to be written are significant.
If anyone knows any more about Sym No, 2, please advise!
Cheers
Richard
I was assuming the Symphony No.2 would be on this CD but, as you say, it's still "lost". One thing of which we can be sure, though, is that if it is ever found in any playable condition we'll all be sure to hear about it.
I take Christopher's point about the dangers of being misconstrued, so for the avoidance of doubt my gripe about the trumpeting of Florence Price is that making an icon of Price will in the long term damage the causes of much better women composers and much better black composers, of whom there are quite a few, both historically and amongst her contemporaries and ours.
To say something new - I feel that if (as does seem to have happened) her life story brings people to classical music who would otherwise never have come near it, and sets them on journeys of discovery and joy that we still find ourselves on, then that is all to the good.
~Ends~
I am really not a fan of hers, but I can´t help thinking that Christopher has a point.
Yes, I agree that that's a fair positive point, but of course it's not the main reason why her music is currently flavour of the month ... and with that, I've made my final contribution to this thread, I think.
I've just acquired the new Nezet-Séguin CD (Symphonies 1 & 3) - and it's very fine; in fact it shows what can be achieved with this music given a world-class orchestra and fab sonics.
I have therefore adjusted my view of Price's symphonies somewhat. What I still find incongruous are the Juba scherzos after the long, often languorous opening two movements; and even more disappointing are the 5-minute long, dash-for-the-exit finales. They're just too inconsequential (for me).
No: this isn't great music (IMHO). But it is hugely enjoyable, especially in this new DG release.
Since we're all abiding by the cease-fire in the Price Kulturkampf, I wonder if it would best to lock this thread, discussing recordings as they appear in the recordings section? The title of the thread suggests a continuation or resumption of hostilities. Perhaps Alan's most recent post can be moved to a section devoted to the new recording, this one then being shut down.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 22 January 2022, 21:00
I have [...] adjusted my view of Price's symphonies somewhat. What I still find incongruous are the Juba scherzos after the long, often languorous opening two movements; and even more disappointing are the 5-minute long, dash-for-the-exit finales. They're just too inconsequential (for me).
No: this isn't great music (IMHO). But it is hugely enjoyable, especially in this new DG release.
I listened to the 1st and 4th again. I liked them both much more this time around -- I guess she does grow on you. But she puts all her eggs in the baskets of the first movements. The following movements, as Alan points out, don't hold up to the promise of opening movements, which are the most thoroughly worked out and which give each symphony a pleasing first impression. If they are too reminiscent of Dvorak -- well, there are far worse models. A little ersatz Dvorak never hurt anyone. Using the juba as her dance movement misfires to the same degree as certain Jazz Age composers who tried to introduce fox trots or similar popular dances into the jacket of a symphony.
So, not bad by any means, but I still feel more and more let down as each symphony progresses toward its end.
... i know you mean among other things, but a foxtrot movement in a symphony makes me think of a work much later than Jazz Age (sym.7 by Kalevi Aho)... maybe there are earlier examples (Antheil maybe?... he did write a 1 movement Jazz Symphony.) :)