Details here:
https://daniels-orchestral.com/johannes-brahms/symphony-f-minor-orchd-holloway/
To be broadcast on BBC Radio 3 on Wednesday 29th March during the Afternoon Concert which starts at 2pm:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m001k8hf
BBC Symphony Orchestra
Paul Mann (conductor)
I'm a sucker for this sort of thing and will try to record it.
This is a 2008 orchestration of Brahms' Piano Quintet in F minor, composed during Brahms' period of working on Symphony No. 1.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Saturday 25 March 2023, 22:45I'm a sucker for this sort of thing and will try to record it.
The performance is scheduled to be released by Toccata in May: "Brahms by Arrangement, Vol. 2", along with an orchestration of the Variations on a Theme by Schumann, Op. 23.
Johannes BRAHMS: Brahms by Arrangement, Volume Two: Orchestrations by Robin Holloway:
Variations on a Theme of Schumann, Op.23
Symphony in F minor, Op.34
Schumann Six Canonic Studies, Op.56
BBC Symphony Orchestra
Paul Mann, conductor
First recordings
TOCC0450
https://toccataclassics.com/pipeline/
Thanks, John, for the info. I should have guessed - Paul Mann's a Toccata Classics stalwart.
Yes, many thanks John. I see that it has been orchestrated at least once before, by Henk de Vlieger, and there's a recording of that version by the Orchestre de Picardie under Arie van Beek - details and excerpts at Presto here (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9334598--brahms-transcriptions).
Although it's slightly off-topic, Peter Klatzow did a marvelous orchestration of the first three movements of the Brahms Quintet in G, which had started life as sketches for a fifth symphony. The result is utterly convincing and natural sounding, as if it had always been meant to sound that way. Here is a performance of the first movement by the Cape Town Symphony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQZpJuLBsN8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQZpJuLBsN8)
I've known Klatzow's orchestration for a few years and completely agree with what you write about its quality. The second and third movements are also, or once were, available on YouTube somewhere. Unfortunately Klatzow never orchestrated the finale, and I read somewhere that this was because he felt that Brahms had lost interest in the work as a potential symphony by the time he came to the finale and that it therefore wasn't in keeping with the rest of the work. A pity.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Sunday 26 March 2023, 17:55The second and third movements are also, or once were, available on YouTube somewhere.
2nd movement (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWvuIwuH8xw)
3rd movement (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1gbI5wFqgA)
Speaking as the devils advocate I would have to imagine that Brahms would be righteously pissed at the various orchestrations of his chamber compositions. They are not badly done they are just pseudo Brahms. Brahms did only one orchestration - that of the Haydn variations, and there is more Brahms in it than Haydn. Admittedly, maybe Schoenberg got away with it with his orchestration of the Piano Quartet, Op. 25, but I will give Schoenberg the benefit of a doubt being that he was closer to the Brahms style and era than any of our contemporary composers. Likewise, it would have been wonderful if Brahms could have composed 5 symphonies like Mendelssohn, or maybe 7 like his contemporary Tchaikovsky, or God help us maybe 11 like Raff and Bruckner. Many people hunger for more of what Brahms might have orchestrally composed and I too am a sucker for these latest conjures. I suggest if you want an example of the Brahms skill in orchestration listen to the recent Naxos recording Johannes Brahms: Hungarian Dances and the Hungarian Tradition (Naxos 8574424-25) and enjoy his orchestral transformations that came from those sources.
Quote from: jasthill on Monday 27 March 2023, 01:09Speaking as the devils advocate I would have to imagine that Brahms would be righteously pissed at the various orchestrations of his chamber compositions. [...] Admittedly, maybe Schoenberg got away with it with his orchestration of the Piano Quartet, Op. 25, but I will give Schoenberg the benefit of a doubt being that he was closer to the Brahms style and era than any of our contemporary composers. [...] I suggest if you want an example of the Brahms skill in orchestration listen to the recent Naxos recording Johannes Brahms: Hungarian Dances and the Hungarian Tradition (Naxos 8574424-25) and enjoy his orchestral transformations that came from those sources.
I'm sure he would have hated them, but that's on him. He hated a lot of things that I like. And I've never liked the Schoenberg orchestration of the 1st Piano Quartet precisely because it is stylistically so un-Brahmsian. Finally, Brahms orchestrated only three of the Hungarian Dances (1, 3, and 10). The rest are by other composers/arrangers.
Quotebut I will give Schoenberg the benefit of a doubt being that he was closer to the Brahms style and era than any of our contemporary composers.
Respectfully, I disagree. It's wonderful in its own way, but it sure ain't like Brahms.
Maybe that's why I like it so much!
Quite possibly!
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 27 March 2023, 09:34Quotebut I will give Schoenberg the benefit of a doubt being that he was closer to the Brahms style and era than any of our contemporary composers.
Respectfully, I disagree. It's wonderful in its own way, but it sure ain't like Brahms.
You can say the same about the De Vlieger orchestrations; they're quite nimble, but also, if you don't mind, expressively a bit "flat" and, to be honest, boring.
From what I gather, there are quite a few "symphonizations" of pieces by Brahms, most of which use early chamber works to possibly re-create a symphony (I guess?) to precede Brahms' First:
- Piano Sonata in C major, Op. 1 (De Vlieger)
- Piano Trio in B, Op. 8 (Swensen)
- Piano Quartet in G major, Op. 25 (Schoenberg)
- Piano Quartet in A major, Op. 26 (Woods)
- Piano Quintet in F minor, Op. 34 (De Vlieger, Holloway)
- String Sextet in G major, Op. 36 (Atterberg, for string orchestra with organ)
- String Quintet in G major, Op. 111 (Klatzow)
Klatzow is the exception of course, and I agree with John that his attempt feels very natural. The same goes for Swensen's attempt. My favorite, however, must be Atterberg's arrangement (not really an orchestration) of the String Sextet. He creates something quite different from the original, but I think it works rather better than Schoenberg's attempt.
There's the Berio orchestration of the Clarinet Sonata,of course. Although I am a lover of clarinet concertos, I am afraid that I find this combination rather unappealing.
Quote from: Ilja on Monday 27 March 2023, 11:29From what I gather, there are quite a few "symphonizations" of pieces by Brahms,
Don't forget these:
Eleven Chorale Preludes, op.122, orchd. by: Detlev Glanert, Erich Leinsdorf, Virgil Thomson, Henk de Vlieger
Brahms: Piano Concerto No. 3 in D Major after Violin Concerto, Op. 77 (Arr. Lazić)
Brahms: Handel Variations: Edmund Rubbra
Liebeslieder-Walzer: Richard W. Sargeant, W. Weismann
Schoenberg probably did the most damage with his orchestration (extra composition) of the Piano Quartet, the other seem to be straight (here's how Brahms might do it) orchestrations.
I say the old man (Brahms) would be cross and a bit chippy over all this, more interventions then Bruckner got with his symphonies.
Of course you're right about the Schoenberg, it's basically crazy, and beggars belief that he could ever claim it was faithful to Brahms, but to me the Rubbra is somewhat crazier still.
It's even less Brahmsian, and definitely Handelian (after all it's the Handel variations..), and definitely not what you would expect from an Englishman.
Don't get me wrong, I love it: every now and then I blast the Cleveland/Ashkenazy recording at high volume, and I have an absolute ball, but the Old Bearded One would have had a fit.
I was really mainly discussing "new" Brahms symphonies rather than orchestrations in general. But now that we're talking, and before Alan gets the chance to flog me, I wanted to point out Georgii Cherkin's arrangement of the Paganini Variations (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76R4hPCBk4w). Cherkin seems to make them as ante-Rachmaninovian as possible, which begs the question of whether such a "personal" arrangement is preferable to creating "quasi-Brahms" - although I suppose the talent and good judgment of the arranger is key.
Personally, I really dislike the "Piano Concerto no.3" after the Violin concerto. It just doesn't work (IMHO, of course)
Audio excerpts are available at Presto:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9468212--brahms-by-arrangement-volume-two-orchestrations-by-robin-holloway
The 'Symphony' is a big piece at just over 44 minutes. From the excerpts, I'm wondering whether this might be the best orchestration yet of a work by Brahms.
That probably depends on whether your idea of "best" equals "most Brahmsian". It sounds a lot more exciting than the De Vlieger version, that's for sure. Must-buy for me, and it'll be hard to wait until May 5th.
Actually, by 'best' I just meant one that works, i.e. that doesn't make me constantly think of the original.
and of course- presumably?- which works in the sense that it sounds like it could have been written as a symphony (whether in the style of Brahms' symphonies is less relevant).
In a similarish case, someone pointed out the distinction between piano duet arrangements (e.g., different case here) and piano duet rehearsal reductions being that the former sound like real pieces written for piano duet, the latter being just meant to be accompany the solo part (in rehearsals, competitions, ...) but don't actually represent the whole original piano/orchestra (or whatever) score as actual works the same way-- for example, again.
I adore the Schoenberg not because Brahms might have orchestrated it that way any more than Bach would have orchestrated the Ricercare as Webern does, but because they're, to my ear, very enjoyable orchestrations of the works in styles their arrangers were wholly comfortable with, etc.
I am not sure about this purchase.
The plus side is that a firstclass orchestra with a committed conductor is performing.
The big minus is I don't particularly warm to the excerpts. How often do I listen to Brahms nowadays? Is this a bridge too far for me?
I think I am going to sit on the fence and wait until I get an opportunity to hear the whole work before I place an order.
Brahms is not exactly an easy listen. He's often quite an 'intellectual' composer, so I sympathise. I have long come to the conclusion that his music wouldn't feature in my 'desert island discs', much as I enjoy, for example, the great Violin Concerto. Over recent weeks, for example, I have taken great pleasure from listening to Mirecki's fine Symphony...
My "go to" Brahms listens are the concertos and the First Symphony, but I have to be in a "Brahms mood" to even think of listening to any of them. My desert Island would probably be Brahms-free too.
While I love at least three of the four symphonies (and sometimes all four), the concertos are a more difficult listen for me, simply because I find them on the longish side for their material. Increasingly, I feel that generally speaking the sweet spot for "regular" concertos lies around the 30-35 minute mark, with only a few exceptions (Moskowski's 1st PC being one, the Dvorak 2nd Cello Concerto another).
Having said that, Brahms on top form (1st and 4th symphonies, F minor Piano Quintet, F major Piano Quartet and quite a few more) is just balm to the ears.
... A major pf quartet or F major quintet? I adore both and would add some of the music for chorus or double chorus, e.g.
Quote from: Ilja on Wednesday 29 March 2023, 14:41Having said that, Brahms on top form (1st and 4th symphonies, F minor Piano Quintet, F major Piano Quartet and quite a few more) is just balm to the ears.
Did you mean the A major Pf Qt?
Pretty much anything by Brahms would make my desert island list.
[Disclaimer: the views expressed by others on this thread are entirely their own. The participation by the present author is in no way an endorsement of those opinions.]
Sorry John, I did indeed mean the A major. Typo, sorry.
Perhaps we'd better get back to the Holloway orchestration...
Quote from: Alan Howe on Wednesday 29 March 2023, 17:05Perhaps we'd better get back to the Holloway orchestration...
Looks like we'll just have to wait until it's available!
Personally, I look forward more to the Schumann variations. It's seldom performed or recorded, one of Brahms's least known works, and I think the piano 4-hands format lends itself very well to orchestration.
Holloway's orchestration is a fine piece of work and it gets an exciting performance from Mann and the London Symphony Orchestra but (you knew there was going to be a "but") if his intention was for it to sound like a symphony by Brahms then he's failed. There's no question, for me at least, that it convinces as a very grand symphony but, though the orchestration is certainly in the romantic style, it's too technicolour and brassy to be mistaken for Brahms' more sober work. Mann's interpretation is also sometimes quite driven, in the third and fourth movements especially, and this adds to the "full on" impression that one gets. I really enjoyed it and will definitely buy the commercial recording when it's released but if you're hoping for Brahms' "Nullte" then you'll be disappointed.
Just as a quick comment: Certainly, neither Holloway nor Schönberg had the intention to do an orchestration which sounds "like Brahms", and of course, both were / are perfectly aware of their result differing from Brahms' own approach, bearing their own fingerprint (even intentionally so), reflecting their own choices, their view on the music, a sort of composed interpretation. In this sense, Holloway certainly did not "fail".
I completely agree, he's done a great job. What I wrote was "if his intention was for it to sound like a symphony by Brahms then he's failed". It clearly wasn't his intention.
Further :)... Mimicking the "style" of another person or era (to the point of quelching all of one's own artistic qualities) is one of those things whose point I don't see, to rephrase something I said earlier. Most of the most successful (for example Ravel's Tombeau!- French Baroque, not specifically Couperin's style) manage to cleverly mix two things, evoke one using the other, etc. (Something like an exact transcription of an organ work for piano, like Liszt's of Bach, is something of a partial exception- but qv what Walker writes about those.)
Just as a quick reply to Eric's comment (I perfectly understood Mark's, all OK here): true indeed. If Brian Newbould orchestrates (or even completes) Schubert fragments he will do it in a manner which is as close to Schubert as possible (even if of course, a perfect match is impossible) – in a way, it's something scholarly, also reflecting the possibilities of the instruments Schubert had access to and so on. However, once a composer like the ones discussed here deals with orchestrating, say, chamber music by Brahms or whatever, the point will almost never be an imitation but rather an adaption which reflects the creative personality of the arranger up to some degree – so, it's much more something artistic in this case: the question is no longer "What might Schubert (or ...) have done?" but rather "What do I want to do with the material, how do I perceive it?". Another example would be Paul Dessau's Symphonische Mozart-Adaption nach dem Quintett KV 615.
I heard that adaptation (of the E-flat quintet kv 614) for the first time in decades and second time ever earlier this month and- will write my brief thoughts somewhere. Interesting, surely.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Thursday 30 March 2023, 13:45[...] if his intention was for it to sound like a symphony by Brahms then he's failed. [...]it's too technicolour and brassy to be mistaken for Brahms' more sober work.
Oh, dear.
Those of you who are fans of Golden Age Hollywood, as I am, may remember the 1947 biopic "Song of Love", about the relationship of Brahms and the Schumanns. Paul Henreid and Katherine Hepburn played the Schumanns, with Robert Walker as Brahms. The film is not a great one, but I have always enjoyed it as a guilty pleasure. One contemporary critic succinctly put it when he said, "This is how Brahms and the Schumanns might have acted had they known they would later break into the movies."
The new Holloway orchestration, by your description, makes me think that perhaps this is how Brahms would have orchestrated had he known people would later listen to his music at home in surround sound.
Thanks for the warning. I guess I will skip this one.
It's been interesting reading some of the comments here about our new recording of three works by Brahms and Schumann in new orchestrations by Robin Holloway. Perhaps it's worth saying that there is certainly no intention on Robin's part to second-guess what the composers might themselves have done. After all, there wouldn't be much point in that: if Brahms or Schumann had wanted to do it themselves, they would have done. For me, it's best understood as a dialogue between one composer and another at a very deep level of communion and understanding. There is, I think, a considerable difference between an arrangement, or a scholarly reconstruction, and the work of a composer who chooses to recast the work of a colleague. Robin's entirely unique and original take on these pieces is certainly borne out of love for the music, but of course no amount of love would be enough on its own, without also the profoundest degree of understanding. I hope that those expressing scepticism will give these beautiful reimaginings a try. After all, true masterpieces - and I think we can all agree that op.34 in either of its extant original guises is one of Brahms' very greatest works - can be appreciated from more than one point of view at the same time.
Thank you, Paul, that's fascinating and I'm sure is the right approach to these works. For myself, I thought the Op.34b orchestration a most impressive achievement. Welcome to UC, by the way.
I noticed, too, that this recording was broadcast (of the Brahms/Holloway) on BBC Radio 3- yesterday (https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m001k8hf) (link valid for almost a month)...
Thanks for your contribution, Paul. I was listening back to the broadcast today and was actually very impressed. I greatly look forward to the Toccata Classics release.
The discussion of the merits of this non-Brahmsian approach to Brahms got me to thinking about Tchaikovsky's "Mozartiana". I dug it out the other day and I've probably listened to it four times since. I just can't get enough of it. And to think that I used to hold a rather low opinion of it! Now I find it unceasingly delightful.
Tchaikovsky, of course, makes no attempt to orchestrate the work in the style of Mozart. He is at all times himself, yet the result is always charming. I'm not sure if this is enough to get me to purchase Holloway's Brahms, but it does make me realize, just like Ravel's take on Mussorgsky, that sometimes the approach works.
I've listened to the Schumann and the first movement on the broadcast, which expires tomorrow. (Hopefully will be able to stream it at some point, if only for the Schumann, which is a good orchestration of a fine work.) The orchestration of the Brahms, so far (I'll try to catch the rest after I rest...) reminds me vaguely of the most recent time I listened to the Dessau orchestration of the Mozart, but I'm afraid I can't mean that as a compliment. (The issue isn't "would Brahms have done it -exactly- this way", it's "does the orchestration seem to suit the melodic ideas and respond to them"*- which Brahms, a very fine orchestrator, would have done- and so far the answer is no.)
*My idea of what this means is flexible enough to include the Bach/Webern Ricercar, again, but this seems to go in the opposite direction of "not responding".
Quote from: eschiss1 on Wednesday 26 April 2023, 21:12The issue isn't "would Brahms have done it -exactly- this way", it's "does the orchestration seem to suit the melodic ideas and respond to them"*- which Brahms, a very fine orchestrator, would have done- and so far the answer is no.
From what I have heard, this is the same complaint I would have made. Unlike you, however, I would not exempt the Variations from the same charge. The opening theme, it seems to me, cries out to be set for the winds, as Brahms did in his Haydn Variations. Holloway's use of the strings seems to be missing the point.
Quote from: John Boyer on Thursday 27 April 2023, 01:15Unlike you, however, I would not exempt the Variations from the same charge.
Ah, but now I see you were not referring to Holloway's orchestration of Brahms's Schumann Variations, which appears on the new Toccata disc, but his orchestration of Schumann's Pedal Piano Studies, which appears on the BBC concert.
From the description of the BBC broadcast, I think they're both from CDs rather than studio broadcasts, but I may be mistaken... has the pedal-piano studies orchestration been issued on disc? (yes, I see, if I count the disc the Brahms is on which won't be out until 5/5- which explains a bit. But yes, they are on the same disc.)
Quote from: eschiss1 on Thursday 27 April 2023, 03:39But yes, they are on the same disc.)
By Jove, you're right! The Toccata disc has all three works.
I wonder if Schumann's fugues on b-a-c-h, op.60 (which the outer movements of the 2nd symphony put me in mind of just because of their title) have been well-orchestrated :)
I find myself thinking that op.34(/bis), despite its genesis as a string quintet, might be better as a piano concerto than a symphony, perhaps in the manner of op.83 (with the opening for piano and orchestra, then an inserted orchestral tutti, then the concerto "proper" continuing.)
The 'Symphony', especially the opening movement, is certainly a thought-provoking arangement and gives us some idea of what an early symphonic attempt by Brahms might have sounded like in the context of works by Bargiel, Dietrich, Volkmann, Grimm, etc.
For me the most obvious Brahmsian 'footprints' are the harmonic daring and rhythmic complexity.
...however! As the work went on I became increasingly annoyed at the inappropriately heavy use of the brass which seemed to me completely unnecessary. All in all, it comes across to me as a clever arrangement, but not one I'd want to hear very often. Too often I felt aurally assaulted, I'm afraid - and not in a good way.
I can't help thinking that time and effort would have been better spent tackling one of the as yet unrecorded symphonies by Brahms' contemporaries rather than this sophisticated fake. Some of these are truly outstanding examples of the art.
There was a composer (who's been mentioned in this thread!) who wrote that he believed that the best orchestration was that which (iirc-haven't read this in a bit) added only what already seemed called for, grew out of , what was already in the music. (Not the same as certain other points of view expressed- one might need more modern instruments to do this right, but the result would sound of one piece as a new piece and presumably would still sound right...)
I found the opening movement promising, but I began to dislike the piece more and more as it went on. Topheavy in brass, and I couldn't agree more with Alan's latest post. I wish I had dared to utter the phrase "sophisticated fake". Sums it up for me!
Sometimes you just have to say what you really think (as long as it's not rude or offensive). I was hoping for something as sensitive as Elgar/Payne Symphony 3, but this isn't it.
Much better than fake Brahms would have been, say, Bernhard Scholz's 2nd Symphony, i.e. a really good work in the Brahmsian tradition...
https://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,8783.msg90734.html#msg90734
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcU4nTXFZOQ
https://imslp.org/wiki/Symphony_No.2%2C_Op.80_(Scholz%2C_Bernhard)
Toccata did a great job with Bargiel's Symphony, so...