I just found out yesterday that Heritage Records have, in the past few years, been reissuing Unicorn-Kanchana CDs, including several Bernard Herrmann titles. As noted in a thread from a few years back, all copies of the 1990 CD reissue of Herrmann's 1970 recording of Raff's 5th Symphony evidently suffer from "bronzing," aka "CD rot." I've emailed Heritage encouraging them to consider reissuing the Raff.
My eternal gratitude will go out to any of you who would do the same. I'd also note that there are a number of other currently unavailable titles in the Unicorn catalog that might be of interest to readers here, so it can't hurt to let them know there's interest in their efforts. I'll paste the link to their website below:
https://www.heritage-records.com
Thanks for doing this. I know that many of us retain an affection for this disc and still regard it as the definitive performance in spite of that over enthusiastic timpanist! My copy is badly bronzed but still plays perfectly.
I'm sure it would be a noble cause. However, this particular recording can hardly now be regarded as definitive: historic, yes; definitive, surely not. So, I'd buy it for its historic importance in the Raff discography; but I'd hesitate to commend it as the way to play Raff.
I can't disagree. It is my favorite symphony, but, to my mind, all seven of the recordings released on CD so far are flawed in one way or another, be it sound quality, phrasing & tempo, or quality of orchestral playing. That said, I still enjoy listening to all of them, well, maybe all except Yondani Butt & The Philharmonia on ASV. That one is absolutely lifeless.
I do agree that Herrmann's is some way from being the "best" all round of Lenore recordings but it is iconic. It was, for many of my older generation of Raff enthusiasts, our introduction to his music and for that reason alone I return to it from time to time but it's no longer the benchmark of Raff interpretation it once was. I keep the LP and CD as artefacts but to listen I turn to an mp3 rip.
Point taken there seems to be no 'best Raff 5', but what is the second best recommendation? Bamert, Jarvi, Schneider, Stadlmair?
Quote from: raffite33 on Friday 22 December 2023, 00:23I can't disagree. It is my favorite symphony, but, to my mind, all seven of the recordings released on CD so far are flawed in one way or another, be it sound quality, phrasing & tempo, or quality of orchestral playing. That said, I still enjoy listening to all of them, well, maybe all except Yondani Butt & The Philharmonia on ASV. That one is absolutely lifeless.
Strange..., since Y. Butt's Im Walde is pretty terrific.
Im Walde on ASV was conducted by Francesco d'Avalos. I agree: it's very well done. Yondani Butt only recorded Lenore.
Quote from: M. Yaskovsky on Friday 22 December 2023, 12:55Point taken there seems to be no 'best Raff 5', but what is the second best recommendation? Bamert, Jarvi, Schneider, Stadlmair?
I'd say that Järvi is the most idiomatic choice. I just wish he'd re-done the opening which, to my ears, is slightly smudged. Nevertheless, I'm sure it's how Lenore is supposed to go...
Funny, but the one Lenore I tell people to avoid is Jarvi. Raff a tempo is rather like Beethoven the same way: it makes you wonder if his metronome was out of whack.
Oh, I found Järvi's Lenore eye-opening. And it really was the first time I really enjoyed the piece. Different folks, and all that.
I'm certain that Lenore was meant go considerably more swiftly than under Herrmann. I suppose Stadlmair is the safest modern choice, but is Raff really meant to be safe?
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 22 December 2023, 16:34Im Walde on ASV was conducted by Francesco d'Avalos. I agree: it's very well done. Yondani Butt only recorded Lenore.
Oh my! Sorry, I don't know how I missed it. Back to the topic. I have no issue with Järvi's Lenore because I felt the hair-raising tempo in the beginning only added to the surprise and out worldly atmosphere Raff wanted to create and any disappointment, I might have felt was purely due to my ears being "spoiled" by pre-existing recordings that I grew comfortable with. Are there any non-commercial recordings/performances that have done Symphony No. 5 some justice?
Not to worry - same label, but different conductor.
The mistake, I think, is to play Raff as if he were Brahms. His music requires real athleticism, I feel.
Whilst I am very comfortable with my old Herrmann LP, Alan, I think you are spot-on with the point you have just made . Raff benefits from the nimble and suffers from the solemn, and I think that is even true about his First Symphony.
There's no doubt about it in my view, Raff benefits from a certain briskness and there's plenty of contemporary evidence attesting to that being the way his music was played in the 19th century. His great friend the conductor Hans von Bülow said "with Raff everything goes quickly". Overall, amongst commercial recordings I think that Järvi comes closest to Raff's intentions for
Lenore but there's a definite lack of flexibility when he employs faster tempi which does mean that, to take an obvious example, the very opening of the piece is taken
too fast, with the result that it sounds, as Alan writes, "smudged". He also misjudges the "apotheosis" at end of the finale and rather throws it away.
QuoteAre there any non-commercial recordings/performances that have done Symphony No. 5 some justice?
There's a 2022 performance on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NZkQeTqveY&t=914s) by the
Zentralschweizer Jugendsinfonieorchester under Jonas Bürgin which, although it's certainly not without its deficiencies, gets the tempi pretty much right throughout. It certainly conveys the feeling of a fevered dream, which is the basis of the original
Lenore ballad from which Raff took his inspiration, whilst remaining thoroughly musical and often exciting throughout.
Yes, the performance Mark refers to seems to be positioned somewhere between Jarvi and Stadlmair - pretty well ideal, I'd say. In fact, if pushed, I'd point to this performance as the one to listen to - for conception if not for execution (this is, after all, a Youth Orchestra).
We just need a few more enlightened modern commercial recordings...
These exchanges are so informative - thank you. My rahter clicky Herrmann LP, and its Nonesuch CD version, have been long cherished, and I haven't taken time to explore the other performances. I'll start by listening to the Zentralschweizer Jugendsinfonieorchester on YT - thank you for the link and the appraisal.
Can anyone explain the "Op.101" title?
Quote from: semloh on Tuesday 26 December 2023, 21:03Can anyone explain the "Op.101" title?
The Tudor recording of Lenore is coupled with the First Suite, Op. 101. Whoever did the YouTube post probably copied the opus number incorrectly from that Tudor release.
Quality sleuthing, John.
Yes, thanks John.
Listening again to the performance on YouTube by the Zentralschweizer Jugendsinfonieorchester
under Jonas Bürgin which comes in at around 44 minutes - I'd say it was pretty well ideal. Here's the link again for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NZkQeTqveY
I note that Dave Hurwitz, in discussing a CD of Cyril Scott PCs conducted by Bernard Herrmann, reveals that Herrmann was known for his slow and dreary conducting of music by composers other than himself. Perhaps it was unfortunate that he was the conductor chosen for the first recording....
Well, only Yondani Butt seems to have been slower than Herrmann in Raff's Lenore in a comparison of 7 recordings listed at allmusic.com (though some may take repeats and some not, so duration by itself isn't enough, I know) so there may be something to that. (It doesn't please me to agree with the person quoted, but what can you do.)
There's much more competition in Holst's Planets suite (Herrmann's total timing a bit under 57 minutes; many recordings are closer to 45) and in Satie's orchestrated Gymnopédies, but might be true there too, hrm.
Yes, it becomes more and more apparent that that pioneering recording which first introduced many of us (and certainly me) to Raff was, at best, a very individual take on Lenore. On the other hand, it also demonstrates the strength of the music that it not only survived Herrmann's slow tempi but inspired enthusiasm to hear more of Raff's works. Interestingly, Herrmann's 1949 radio broadcast performance for CBS was over 8 minutes quicker.
Alan talks about Herrmann being an unfortunate choice,but the recording wouldn't have happened,would it,if it had not been for his involvement. For,this, we are greatly in his debt.
Whoever came up with the cover frontispiece idea deserves a medal. I bought it for that reason itself!
I listened to the Herrmann again today for the first time in ages and was surprised at how well it holds up. It's reputation for being slow is akin to the reputation of the Gould/Bernstein Brahms 1st Concerto. Legend had it that Gould's allegedly bizarre interpretation dragged the worked interminably, that it lasted more than an hour, but when Sony finally released it, we learned it clocked in at 53:21 -- one minute faster than Bernstein's later recording with Zimerman.
I now realize that Herrmann falls within the normal performance range for the symphony, just on the low end of that normal scale. His is the slowest, of course, but someone had to be the slowest. The point is he's not absurdly slow, just the slowest of the available recordings. It's hardly an idiosyncratic take on the music at all. Rather, it's Jarvi, with his frantic tempos, who falls far outside the norm. Jarvi is the fastest, but he's abnormally fast -- indeed, absurdly so.
It no surprise that back in the 70s we came away from Herrmann's performance liking the symphony and wanting to hear more Raff. Yes, Herrmann could have pushed it along a bit more (particularly in the Andante, which he plays more like an adagio), but we were still all impressed. I can't imagine someone whose first encounter with Raff is Jarvi's Fifth wanting to explore more. Herrmann is good, but could use a bit more drive. Jarvi is a disaster -- it needs a strong dose of valium. It's the one recording of the 5th that I tell people to avoid.
Benny, you never sounded so good.
I have to disagree here. After all, someone has to be the fastest, and Järvi clocks in at just under 40 minutes against Bürgin at almost 42:42 when we take out the applause and shorten the intervals between the movements to normal length. That's not a huge difference. Far from thinking it a disaster, I really enjoy Raff's take, even though I see the issues Mark and Alan refer to and, also honestly prefer the Bürgin.
Perhaps it's because I didn't get to Raff via Herrmann, but through Schneider on Marco Polo and later, Stadlmair. On the basis of those I never considered Lenore among the best of Raff's symphonic output. Hearing the Herrmann later on I found it lethally dreary - there's little fever left in the dream. As Mark indicated, it's probably wise to err on the side of speed in Raff and although Järvi clearly does err, the end product is still exciting. Also, I appreciate performers taking risks once a decent body of performances is established; it shows a piece's possibilities. And in that way, I think both Herrmann and Järvi have done good work, even if I vastly prefer the latter over the former.
Having been weaned on Lenore through Herrmann's pioneering recording, it took me some time to adjust to the moderately more swift Stadlmair, and even more to Järvi's tempi, but I do believe that they're much nearer to Raff's intentions than is Herrmann's. Sure, Järvi is just too fast in the opening bars, but for the bulk of the first movement, and the other three, his pacing is convincing. I still enjoy listening to Herrmann and we're lucky to have such a spread of interpretations. FWIW, if you can track down a recording of a performance by the Orchester der Zürcher Hochschule der Künste under Marc Kissóczy then it's well worth a listen. He takes the first movement only slightly slower than Järvi, but retains all its feverish excitement and the other three movements pretty much match Järvi's interpretation - the finale is particularly effective. Unfortunately, I've forgotten the recording provenance, otherwise I'd post it here.
While not disagreeing with anything said, I wonder if projecting a mood of feverish excitement can be achieved as much by emphasis, phrasing & tonal expression as by sheer speed. Bernard Herrmann was probably best known for his Hitchcock scores, so, as a conductor, I'd imagine he was pretty good at setting a mood.
I can't comment on Herrmann except to repeat what Dave Hurwitz has said about his conducting style - which seems to be borne out by his commercial recording when compared to the earlier CBS radio broadcast.
What is undeniable is that Järvi's orchestra cannot articulate clearly the start of the first movement at the tempo chosen; thereafter, however, Järvi perfectly captures the nervous energy of a work which isn't supposed to move like Brahms, let alone Wagner.
Quote from: raffite33 on Wednesday 16 July 2025, 14:08While not disagreeing with anything said, I wonder if projecting a mood of feverish excitement can be achieved as much by emphasis, phrasing & tonal expression as by sheer speed. Bernard Herrmann was probably best known for his Hitchcock scores, so, as a conductor, I'd imagine he was pretty good at setting a mood.
A very good point. I think especially expression can make a big difference; simultaneously, there is a limit to what you can achieve with it; listen to Celibidache's performance of Dvorak's 9th (for which I reserve a particularly virulent loathing) to get that point. Even if you like that approach, you'll have to admit that it loses a lot of the work's urgency.
Raffite33 is correct that feverish dreams need not be expressed only through sheer speed, if at all. From whence this association of speed with dreams and fevers? By that standard, Death and Transfiguration and the Symphonie Fantastique should both be played as fast as possible, 15 minutes for the Strauss and 30 for the Berlioz.
I reject, too, the idea that Raff should always be played fast. Yes, it can be very effective. Jarvi's Second works. It's not my favorite, but it's effective. Ponti's Piano Concerto is the only one I can endure; the others are painfully slow. But speed is not a cure all. I am reminded of how Beethoven sounds when we take his tempo markings seriously. I heard a 55-minute Ninth Symphony that was revelatory. It made you realize that Beethoven was a man of the 18th century, not some proto-Bruckner. I heard the Seventh subjected to the same treatment (the allegretto taken at march tempo) and it was unbearable. Each work must be approached individually.
Finally, regarding all this "feverish dream" business, there is no fever and there is no dream. In Burger's poem, Lenore awakes to the reality of William's absence and death. Lenore does not imagine the events of the story, she lives them. William literally returns from the dead and drags Lenore with him to the grave. The events are no more described as a dream or a flight of fancy than are the appearance of the ghost of Hamlet's father, the voyage of the Pequod, or Jekyll's transformation into Hyde. It's a literal ghost story. The drug-induced delirium of the Symphonie Fantastique it is not.
Quote from: raffite33 on Wednesday 16 July 2025, 14:08While not disagreeing with anything said, I wonder if projecting a mood of feverish excitement can be achieved as much by emphasis, phrasing & tonal expression as by sheer speed.
A very good point, but comparing Herrmann's rendition with Kissóczy's in particular just doesn't bear it out.
Speaking personally, I think the problem goes back to Bernard Herrmann; it's as if the base line for conducting Beethoven was late Klemperer (circa 1970).
Funny, I honestly can't stand Ponti's Raff concerto (and that without casting shade on Ponti's importance for unearthing the romantic piano concerto repertoire). But then, I didn't hear it until fairly late (after the Antonioli, for certain); my current favorite is without question Tra Nguyen's.
Perhaps this whole discussion is also a good illustration in the formative effect of first impressions. Usually when I hear a new recording of a work I know very well from a first recording, I have real problem untangling that experience from the initial expectations formed by my memory. It takes time and, sometimes, a re-orientation on the music itself.
Quote from: Ilja on Wednesday 16 July 2025, 18:56first impressions
I can't remember my first experience of Raff 5, but it certainly wasn't Herrmann. I think it was Stadlmair. I added Herrmann later because I thought it was an important historical document.
Ponti's recording of the Piano Concerto was not the first that I heard, but it is also my favourite. But that is because I am a dyed-in-the-wool Ponti fan. He invariably brings things to life for me.
I bought the Herrmann because I was fascinated by the superlative cover ,and I read the laudatory Gramaphone review later.
But Herrmann hooked me and I treasure his performance to this day.
As we generally seem to be addressing the (excessive) speed in the first movement, and, with Jarvi, the very beginning, I have ask whether someone knows some programmatic detail that I don't. Just going by the track listings on the CDs I have, "Part One" (which contains the first two movements) is titled "Liebesgluck." That is variously translated as "Love's Bliss," "Love's Happiness," or "Joy of Love." The Chandos notes indicate that there are bits in the allegro that "hint at future events," but I should think that the very beginning of the movement should be giddy, intoxicating, transcendentally serene, or something like that.
The problem is Järvi, but he's also the solution. It was always well-known in Chandos circles that he is a speedy conductor and this brings dangers as well as excitement. To my mind the opening of Raff 5 should have been re-made and a rock-steady tempo properly established with clarity of articulation in both strings and woodwind, but beyond that I have nothing but praise for his conception of the work.
Quote from: John Boyer on Wednesday 16 July 2025, 16:25regarding all this "feverish dream" business, there is no fever and there is no dream.
In an 1874 letter about the Symphony to the critic Martin Röder, Raff wrote: "
In this solitude, evil forebodings take possession of her. She falls into a fever, in which her hallucinations represent to her the return of her lover. But these hallucinations prepare, in reality, only her own death". It's Lenore's hallucinogenic imagining of "Love's Happiness" which Raff depicts in the first movement.
Yes - and this is exactly what we can hear in Järvi's interpretation.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Friday 18 July 2025, 09:39In an 1874 letter about the Symphony to the critic Martin Röder, Raff wrote...
Oh, good grief, so even
Raff got it wrong? I am reminded of Ambroise Thomas's operatic treatment of Hamlet, where Hamlet triumphs and is proclaimed King of Denmark in the final scene.
Is it too much to ask to get faithful adaptations of our works from these composer types? Who do these clowns think they are? cry Burger and the Bard from the great beyond!
It's important to distinguish between an inspirational source and the work that source inspired. It's less a matter of "getting it wrong" than moulding something into new forms. The idea that there exists a moral obligation to remain completely faithful to an original creative work is very much a modern (i.e., post-1945) consensus.
All musical renderings of original non-musical sources are almost by definition bound to involve interpretation, imagination, addition, maybe even distortion...
Does such creative interpretation extend to a conductor who plays around with the composer's tempi?
Quote from: terry martyn on Friday 18 July 2025, 12:24a conductor who plays around with the composer's tempi
That's what conductors do, isn't it? Unless one has a metronome mark, the rest is interpretation. And even then some metronome marks simply make no sense in performance.
In the case of Raff 5/first movement the marking is crotchet=168, which is very quick. As far as I can tell, Järvi is the only conductor who gets close.
I have always been fond of Herrmann's langourous interpretation of the first movement. Lenore is wallowing in her feverish dream.
You know what they say about a machine that ain't broke.
Quote from: terry martyn on Friday 18 July 2025, 13:30a machine that ain't broke
Well, from the point of view of the specified crotchet=168, Herrmann's machine is distinctly down on power (roughly 132, i.e. between 20% and 25% too slow).