Unsung Composers

Is there a list somewhere online of all (or a great many) works for piano and orchestra by unsung composers? Or one that includes all (or a great many) unsung composers? Something extensive and reasonably accurate?

I take it you know Dr Allan Ho's discography...

http://www.siue.edu/~aho/discography/Discography.pdf (http://www.siue.edu/~aho/discography/Discography.pdf)

While perusing that list I noticed a Concerto in E-flat by Anthony Burgess (1976).  That wouldn't happen to be the author of A Clockwork Orange, would it?

Quote from: JimL on Tuesday 22 February 2011, 00:10
While perusing that list I noticed a Concerto in E-flat by Anthony Burgess (1976).  That wouldn't happen to be the author of A Clockwork Orange, would it?

He's mentioned composing in his autobiography, I think...

Indeed - the prolific author is one and the same as the composer! Burgess wrote a considerable amount of music, including several symphonies. In addition to developing an inoperable brain tumour earlier in his life, he did just about everything apart from flying to the moon. Much of the music was composed just for sheer fun - I've got no idea as to whether it is any good.

In a way it is a pity he is now largely remembered for 'Clockwork Orange'. Some of his books are not only enormously clever - but very very funny. Try, for example, the 'Worm and the Ring' - which is directly parallel in terms of plot and character to Wagner's Ring. (But on no account attend a meeting of The Wagner Society with the book sticking out of the pocket.)

Peter

Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 21 February 2011, 23:55
I take it you know Dr Allan Ho's discography...

http://www.siue.edu/~aho/discography/Discography.pdf (http://www.siue.edu/~aho/discography/Discography.pdf)

No. Thanks!

That is a very long list.  :o

I have a list of about 175 unsungs and their piano concertos numbering perhaps 400 - I've never counted them.  Gleaned from the 1950s Grove's years ago.  I'm not sure that I should post it here but I'd be happy to share it with anyone who'd like a copy.  It's basically my "want list" so does not contain the Beethovens and such.  Most of these I'm sure we'll never hear in our lifetimes - if ever.  Although I've already been pleasantly surprised any number of times......also, they are almost exclusively from the Romantic era.

I also have similar lists for Piano Trios, Piano Quartets, Piano Quintets, Symphonys and other catagories if anyone is interested.

jerfilm@aol.com

Jerry

Anyone interested in this genre would be well advised to buy Music for Piano & Orchestra by Maurice Hinson. It is a bit like a Bible to me and mine is falling to pieces with the margins covered in notes.

Does include the popular ones, but with some 3,000 in total, there are bundles of neglected works.

Don't know where I would be without it. Well, I would probably be taking my holidays in Barbados instead of Bournemouth if I had never seen the blessed thing.

Thal

Thanks for the tip.  I ordered my copy immediately.  If I'd had this 20 years ago Iwouldn't have had to spend the time going through the entire edition of Grove's......... :-\

Jerry

Hinson's work is good, as far as it goes, but there are significant omissions (especially among English composers), and a few errors. Also, I am not convinced that Hinson has actually seen all the works he mentions!  I asked him once if he had seen a full score of Dreyschock's PC and he said there was one in the Library of Congress. There isn't, of course, because a full score never existed. Indeed, the Library of Congress does not even have the solo piano part.

I think you are right Gareth. I would be amazed if he had personally seen all of those listed in his book even taking into consideration the  huge list of Libraries and publishers in the acknowledgments of the preface.

Huge amounts of English composers left out, but probably the best guide available.

Thal

The best I've come across certainly, but I find it rather an irriatating read. I'm fine browsing it until I come across a glaring omission and then I lose interest in it.

You could also look at the web site; piano-concertos.org, which contains most of the classical and romantic piano concertos that were ever performed.

QuoteYou could also look at the web site; piano-concertos.org, which contains most of the classical and romantic piano concertos that were ever performed.

And we are eternally grateful to you, Giles, for undertaking this mammoth task and producing such a valuable resource.

Quote from: giles.enders on Wednesday 23 February 2011, 10:45
You could also look at the web site; piano-concertos.org, which contains most of the classical and romantic piano concertos that were ever performed.

What a great website, Giles. I'll be referring to it.

I notice on your Recordings Wishlist, Geirr Tveitt piano concerto no. 3. Yes, this concerto deserves a modern recording. But it would be hard to better the performance played by Tviett himself with the Bergen Philharmonic. It has been released on a CD called "Geirr Tviett plays Geirr Tviett" on the Simax label. The audio is certainly not up to today's standards, and the orchestra is rather scrappy in places, but his performance is quite enjoyable nonetheless.

also in reference to the piano-concertos.org (http://piano-concertos.org) wishlist, is the Ridky concerto of 1932 his op.46? This has been recorded on Supraphon LPM 471--LPM 472, or so I gather?  Binghamton University Library has it (Worldcat reference here (http://www.worldcat.org/title/concerto-for-piano-and-orchestra-op-46-klavierkonzert/oclc/29364886) since Binghamton's library catalog doesn't seem to have a permalink I can see.)

Have seen some interesting piano works and a string quartet by Zanella...

I have the recording of Tveitt playing his third piano concerto.  The problem with Tveitt, is that he often deviated quite substantially from what he had written.  It would be good if someone could transcribe the recording.  Similarly the piano concerto of Edward Isaacs.

Quote from: giles.enders on Thursday 24 February 2011, 11:02
I have the recording of Tveitt playing his third piano concerto.  The problem with Tveitt, is that he often deviated quite substantially from what he had written.  It would be good if someone could transcribe the recording.  Similarly the piano concerto of Edward Isaacs.

Have you ever listened to Rachmaninoff's recordings of his own concertos? It was common practice, not only for the composers, but also for major performers, to do that. Horowitz made cuts, rewrote passages and generally tweaked Rachmaninoff's 3rd. Ever listen to the many different "versions" of Gliere's 3rd symphony? Even Stokowski, who was a champion of Gliere's music, made massive cuts and changes in his two different recorded versions.

It is only in the second half of the 20th century that absolute fidelity to the score became a religion. Improvisation and creative performance have disappeared. We are poorer for that. How much more fun it would be if each new recording of a popular concerto was actually different enough to set it apart from others. How much more fun it would be to attend concerts and be surprised and sometimes thrilled by the creative interpretation of a piece rather than just technical perfection.

Personally, I don't care if Tveitt's performance coincides exactly with the score. However, I would love to have a modern recording by a good pianist and much better orchestra.

Does an orchestral score of Edward Isaac's PC still exist?

In regards earlier post, I do tend to care if an orchestra and composer-soloist advertise piano concerto no.4 and give us note for note the piece they've earlier performed as composer-soloist's piano concerto no.1 - I don't know how much I care, but it at least seems odd.  Matter of degree/kind/whatnot.  There's literalism, there's useful cuts (Liszt treated cuts as compositions themselves and I well know it), then there's what Fellegi in his Medtner recordings and I gather Toradze in a Mussorgski recording give us (wholesale, unannounced in the notes, structural recomposition by the pianist - Fellegi makes minor adjustments to Medtner's sonata reminiscenza op.38/1 - ok- but then reinserts the deliberately missing 2nd subject recapitulation in the sonata tragica op.39/5 and omits the cadenza section before the coda entirely... (one could argue that Medtner's idiosyncratic removal of the 2nd subject makes even more sense when one performs the Canzona mattinata op.39 no.4 which also contains the same '2nd subject' as contrasting material - but hey, there's a question- why not record the Canzona... both lovely sonatas are even better in context in the entire opp.38, 39 sets anyway, as Hamelin shows. But I -really- digress :) )

something also re piano-concertos.org if I might- you list the Liebling concerto eroico (http://imslp.org/wiki/Concerto_eroico,_Op.22_(Liebling,_Georg)) in A major, op22 as "1925" which was the date of the earliest performance I can locate, but not the date of its composition or publication- a 2-piano score was published in 1900 (was the full score only published in 1925? what's the history there?  Also, your list of Emanuel Moor's concertos doesn't list his op.85 in E-flat major (whereas his opus 46 in C minor only seems to exist in piano reduction according to the Stiftung (http://www.emanuel-und-henrik-moor-stiftung.de/Emanuel/works.shtml) if I read aright. In all E.Moor seems to have written two concertos without opus number - in D major and D minor - and the concertos opus 57 and 85 in D-flat and E-flat, also opus 46 if that has a full score, in C minor - making 4 or 5 in all... also a concerto for harp and piano, another for violin and piano, and the triple concerto already mentioned on the site. 
Röntgen's output is one of those 'let me get that PDF out that used to be on the Donemus site... after I wake up' things.)

IMSLP has a concerto in F minor by an Auguste Dupont published in 1882. Anyone know anything about this person for starters...

The MS full score of Moor's Op. 46 C minor PC exists. It is in the Moor Archive at the Victoria Music Library in London. This archive is uncatalogued and difficult to access, though the head librarian is very cooperative and has allowed me to explore it in the basement, but because it is uncatalogued it is not possible to have individual items located by library staff and brought to the reading rooms.

Auguste Duponte 1827-1890, Belgian.  Wrote a suite for piano quintet.  Not to be confused with Gabriel  Dupont 1878-1914 French, who also wrote a piano quintet, 1911.
The orchestral score of Edward Isaac's piano concerto is "missing" all that I am aware of is, is the off air recording made about 1950.  Given Isaac's son was a musician, I am surprised that he did not take greater care of his Father's works.  The son spent a considerable amount of time in Canada and there is just a chance it could be there.

hrm. actually I do see there's a brief biography of Auguste Dupont(e) at Bach-Cantatas after all. The piano concerto looked interesting... interesting about the piano quintet too. I seem to recall de Lange Jr. wrote one also (as well as a concerto for violin in D minor or major- the one part I saw looked like a first movement and was definitely D minor- and a cello concerto.) anyhow!... not lacking in interest but must dash :) (sighs of relief heard ;) )

DuPont also write a Konzertstucke for piano and orchestra, opus 42

Jerry

Indeed and an earlier Premier Allegro du Concerto in the same key as his later concerto.

I once had a bash at this but my technique failed me during a "Maestoso e animato" section. The Presto ending is rather effective. Nothing wrong with a bit of youthful abandon.

Thal

I have been using Giles' list now for some time to try and find CDs of concertos, for which I search on Amazon. It is a slow process, and I don't strike gold more than once or twice a year because of the dearth of recordings available. I have also made use of a list on Wikipedia.

Gerhard

Quote from: Gerhard Griesel on Sunday 27 February 2011, 12:50
I have been using Giles' list now for some time to try and find CDs of concertos, for which I search on Amazon. It is a slow process, and I don't strike gold more than once or twice a year because of the dearth of recordings available. I have also made use of a list on Wikipedia.

The webpage (unfortunately, no RSS feed that I know of- it's a category page and does update occasionally as new concertos are uploaded)... piano concertos at IMSLP (http://imslp.org/index.php?title=Category:For_piano,_orchestra&intersect=Concertos) (sort of oversimplifying the description of the page) might interest and be useful too; don't know, hope it is. (Just the category works for piano and orchestra (http://imslp.org/wiki/Category:For_piano,_orchestra) without the piano concertos limitation, but including symphonic poems for piano and orchestra or works misfiled :) - is useful too...)

The first composer I looked at raised a question. The listing for Martucci includes Piano Concerto No. 2, but no listing for No. 1 in D minor, op. 40 (1878), and his concertante Andante for Cello and Orchestra, op. 69 no. 2, (1888, rev 1907) is not there either. Is this because the sheet music is not available?

Quote from: Amphissa on Monday 28 February 2011, 14:32

The first composer I looked at raised a question. The listing for Martucci includes Piano Concerto No. 2, but no listing for No. 1 in D minor, op. 40 (1878), and his concertante Andante for Cello and Orchestra, op. 69 no. 2, (1888, rev 1907) is not there either. Is this because the sheet music is not available?

are we talking about IMSLP? it's a listing of scores and recordings. The first date of publication of the first concerto, I suspect, is probably more recent than 1960, so a scan of a published score probably (I'm guessing here) cannot be hosted on the server as the work is not yet in the public domain in Canada where IMSLP is hosted; a scanned manuscript -might- be legal to host (there are laws concerning the ins and outs of that too, having to do with something called editio princeps etc.) Likewise I suspect with op.69/2's orchestration. Other examples abound. There's a page or two on the site (This (http://imslp.org/wiki/IMSLP:Copyright_Made_Simple) is one) having to do with this...

I don't really need any scores, since my ability to read music is dreadful. I just noticed that Martucci's 1st PC wasn't there, and yet I found it out there on the Intertubes. So, I was just uncertain why some things seem to be there and others not. Copyright is a good reason.

If I may indulge myself...
there's an edition of the Martucci D minor concerto published in 1979 edited by Pietro Spada. Worldcat doesn't seem offhand to mention earlier.  That one causes problems in Canada because Spada is alive and because it was published less than 51 years ago. (Op.40 I seem to recall- I'm not positive... is attached to the organ sonata sometimes, to the piano concerto no.1 sometimes - leading to some confusion. Usually it's attached to the sonata, and the piano concerto no.1 is just op.posth. I think. I may be mistaken and it may be the other way around.) I don't know what the situation would be if someone found a library copy of the manuscript and scanned it in, or made their own Sibelius/Lilypond/... typeset based on the manuscript (not on Spada's edition - unfortunately some people try to get away with this sort of nonsense, making a typeset that's basically a slightly modified rehash of someone else's copyrighted edition - in which case it's really we admin's responsibility to delete it without further ado...) and did a bit of editing and produced their own edition,  releasing it on Lilypond under CC-3.0 - essentially the same thing - the essential question being whether the manuscript of the concerto is considered in pub. domain (and if so in which copyright regions).

I mention Canada again because IMSLP is hosted there. There -are- scores on IMSLP that  are not PD-Canada or CC (Creative Commons-licensed) because the imslp.eu and imslp.us servers allow people in Europe and in the US to upload works public domain in those regions for download access to people in those regions only (and copyright admins, I should suppose. I hope to figure out how to use imslp.us so I can transfer/mirror Wellesz' first two string quartets to IMSLP as part of the huge Sibley Mirroring Project- Wellesz died in 1974 and so is not a PD-Canada composer, but the 2 quartets were published before 1923 and so are PD-US. Ah, copyright law. :) anyway. Here endeth my digression. )

Bill Gates would think twice before buying a Spada Edition. The ones I have considered purchasing in the past were horrificly expensive.

Anyway, the manuscript of the Martucci Concerto No.1 has been digitalised and it would not surprise me if the chap that did it (not me) were to upload it to IMSLP in the not too distant future. It is easily readable.

Thal

Quote from: thalbergmad on Tuesday 01 March 2011, 23:04
Anyway, the manuscript of the Martucci Concerto No.1 has been digitalised and it would not surprise me if the chap that did it (not me) were to upload it to IMSLP in the not too distant future. It is easily readable.

Thal

It might not pass copyright rule inspection, because of the way manuscript law is written- and so as not to write a whole paragiraffe about things I only think I know, I stop there... (ok, one thing. I'm not too worried- one of the main thing, I think, and the two important ones here, for many countries' manuscript © law, I think is, date of first perf. and/or publication - so - the question becomes - when the D minor concerto was premiered.)