Announced on the Agenda page (https://www.howardgriffiths.ch/agenda (https://www.howardgriffiths.ch/agenda)) of conductor Howard Griffiths' website, the following recording having been scheduled for CPO in 2023:
28. / 29.04.2023
Konzerthalle «C. Ph. E. Bach» Frankfurt (Oder)
Brandenburgisches Staatsorchester Frankfurt
Aufnahme für cpo
Ferdinand Hiller: Symphonien e-Moll und f-Moll
I have no idea if this project was realised or not. I certainly hope so.
Well sleuthed, that man!
Do we assume that the E minor Symphony is the one titled 'Es muss doch Frühling werden', Op.67?
Instead of one of the E minor symphonies that remain in manuscript, as the F minor does? I hope they'll get to most of at least his better symphonies eventually...
QuoteDo we assume that the E minor Symphony is the one titled 'Es muss doch Frühling werden', Op.67?
I had assumed that, Alan - but I
may be wrong, of course. We shall just have to wait for CPO to release the disk, which I hope will not take ages!
I sincerely hope that Op.67 is recorded - it's about time!
A must-buy for me.
Has it been commercially recorded in reduction or was there just a concert in which that reduction was included? A full orchestral recording of Op.67 would be better, obviously. And having hummed through at least part of the first movement of the F minor I won't mind that one either, with either finale.
All we have is a radio broadcast of the first movement of Op.67, plus the piano reduction of the whole work.
Thanks for the info, good to know! It's 50-50 whether the e minor means the 1830s symphony or the later, op. 67 one.
All of Hiller's (preserved) symphonies have been edited by Ries & Erler Verlag recently. They should be commended for this editing effort, however for two reasons I cannot support them: 1) the scores are outrageously expensive, and 2) even the sample pages in their website appear to contain some editorial oversights and mistakes. Thus if the samples are any indication, the editorial work has been sloppy.
I hope CPO will record the C major symphony too, a fine symphony, which was composed by Hiller sometime in the 1870s - and it was his last symphony.
Op.67 is a fine work but, whichever symphonies they are, this is a must buy for me.
On the Facebook page of BSOF Brandenburgisches Staatsorchester Frankfurt, there's a post, dated 29th April, which concludes "...With Howard Griffiths we will also be recording music by Ferdinand Hiller in the concert hall of Frankfurt (O.) in the next few days."
update: On Howard Griffiths' Facebook page, a post, dated 20th May - "Busy weeks. Signed 150 books after my performance of my book 'Sihirli Karpuz' in Izmir. Finished recording all four F. Hiller symphonies with Brandenburgisches Staatsorchester and also two concerts with this orchestra with whom I love making music. Now on my way to Dortmund concerts tomorrow and Wednesday."
From the images, I could make out:
Symphonie in e-moll (HW 243) [1829 - 1831]
Symphonie in C Dur (HW 246)
Quote from: FBerwald on Monday 05 August 2024, 10:21Finished recording all four F. Hiller symphonies with Brandenburgisches Staatsorchester
Great news! That'll be two CDs' worth, then.
I've emailed Howard Griffiths and asked him which Symphonies he has recorded.
Quote from: tpaloj on Wednesday 24 June 2020, 16:57Scores that exist:
- Symphony in E minor (which I've denoted as Mus HS 87 above) in four movements, ending in Chants des Pirates. Both Hiller's autograph and a copyist's full score survive. It was not published, though.
- Symphony in F (1832 with revised Finale in 1833). Hiller's autograph.
- Symphony in C. Hiller's autograph.
- Symphony in E minor Op. 67 "Es muss doch Frühling werden", full score Symphony was published around 1850-60s I think
Ries & Erler list the following:
Symphony in E minor, Op.67 HW 1.67 'Es muss doch Frühling werden'
Symphony in E minor, HW 2.4.3
Symphony in F minor, HW 2.4.4
Symphony in C major, HW 2.4.6
So: are the
Symphony in F in tpaloj's list and the
Symphony in F minor in Ries & Erler's listing the same work?
and wasn't there a Symphony in G "Pastoral" in there somewhere (attested to in contemporary sources, though I haven't seen score nor part nor...)? What happened to -that-?
What I'm trying to establish is the extant scores because its seems to me that the suggestion is that Howard Griffiths has recorded 'all four' of Hiller's Symphonies, i.e. the only ones available to him.
Don't know about taploj's Symphony in F, but Eric is right about a Symphony in G, at least according to some contemporary sources, but I haven't been able to find a score anywhere and so I assumed it was lost. It may turn up, of course. It is supposed to bear the title "Im Freien", which I think means "out of doors", so Pastoral would be a good description.
'Im Freien' means 'In the Open Air' or simply 'Outdoors'. 'Pastoral' is close , but rather more general.
Incidentally, there has obviously been an attempt to catalogue Hiller's works (or at least some of them), as the Ries & Erler listing reveals. I'm assuming that HW means 'Hillerwerkverzeichnis', but the remainder is guesswork:
Symphony in E minor, Op.67 HW 1.67 'Es muss doch Frühling werden'
Symphony in E minor, HW 2.4.3
Symphony in F minor, HW 2.4.4
Symphony in C major, HW 2.4.6
Maybe '1.67' indicates a known published work ('1'), followed by its opus number ('67')?
Maybe '2' indicates an unpublished work (WoO?), '4' the category 'Symphony', and the third digit the presumed order of composition dates?
Does anyone know for sure?
Just had a reply from Howard Griffiths - how kind of him to reply so quickly!
We have recorded all four of the Hiller symphonies and I include the information about them below.
Symphonie e-Moll (E minor),'Es muß doch Frühling werden' op. 67 (das ist die 1865 im Druck erschienene Symphonie/published 1865)
2 Fl (Fl picc), 2 Ob, 2 Cl, 2 Fg, 4 Cor, 2 Tr, 3 Trb, Timp, Streicher
The other symphonies are early (ca.1829-34) and have only come down to us in manuscript:
Symphonie f-Moll (F minor)
2 Fl, 2 Ob, 2 Cl, 2 Fg, 2 Cor, 2 Tr, Timp, Streicher
Symphonie C-Dur (C major)
2 Fl, 2 Ob, 2 Cl, 2 Fg, 4 Cor, 2 Tr, 3 Trb, Timp, Streicher
Symphonie e-Moll (E minor)
2 Fl, 2 Ob, 2 Cl, 2 Fg, 4 Cor, 2 Tr, Timp, Streicher.
So: very much as we had assumed.
I'd forgotten the title, yes (or gotten confused :) ). Thanks! (I recall at one point from Hiller's notebook and other stuff that we thought there was yet a 4th early symphony - - but it may have been an earlier version of one of those symphonies, or... I forget now!...)
It's ok for me to mention this news on IMSLP or Wikipedia, perhaps?
Edit: in wishlist mode, I wonder if his A minor (was it?) piano concerto has been or will be recorded, from around the same time as those symphonies...
This really is excellent news. In this "golden age" of unsung composer recordings the neglect of Hiller has been a real oversight - maybe because no one has been lobbying loud enough, or offering financial support to get recordings made?
Quote from: tpaloj on Monday 05 August 2024, 06:23I hope CPO will record the C major symphony too, a fine symphony, which was composed by Hiller sometime in the 1870s - and it was his last symphony.
Judging by Howard Griffiths' reply, the C major Symphony which he has recorded isn't this one. I guess the score remains in manuscript.
Howard Griffiths would be an excellent choice for Julius Rietz's 3rd Symphony (coupled with his 1st, maybe?)
_Is_ there more than one C major symphony by Hiller? There may only be the ca.1870 one..
See above, Eric. Howard Griffiths has recorded a Symphony in C , which he describes as 'early' (ca. 1829-34), so unless that waited forty-odd years to be published, there must be two in that key...
IMSLP has this entry:
Symphony No.5? in C (performed at the Gewandhaus in 1877 according to Geschichte der Gewandhausconcerte zu Leipzig vom 25. November 1781 bis 25. November 1881).
So: was this a new Symphony in C or his early one? Or - unlikely, I know - are they the same work?
do you mean "performed"? since only the E minor was published until latterdays, afaik. Sorry...? Not trying to be a (), just somewhat confused. And knowing a work was performed in 1877 doesn't mean it wasn't performed earlier (I say as the person who probably wrote that line @ the IMSLP page.) Just going by best available information when I wrote that, and should have been more careful :)
(It would be different if some journal like NZM/AMZ had a review of the work in 1877/8 with incipits of the performed work-- as almost never happens now of course but did occasionally, back then! A practice that even continued into, e.g., early 20th century program notes, I believe.)
I don't know anything about an A minor piano concerto, Eric.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 05 August 2024, 17:54See above, Eric. Howard Griffiths has recorded a Symphony in C , which he describes as 'early' (ca. 1829-34), so unless that waited forty-odd years to be published, there must be two in that key...
IMSLP has this entry:
Symphony No.5? in C (performed at the Gewandhaus in 1877 according to Geschichte der Gewandhausconcerte zu Leipzig vom 25. November 1781 bis 25. November 1881).
So: was this a new Symphony in C or his early one? Or - unlikely, I know - are they the same work?
The chronology of Hiller's symphonies is a REALLY confusing subject. Reproducing many of his orchestral works from different periods of his compositional career has, I think, helped me to understand the differences between his earlier and late works somewhat. Though I'm still no Hiller expert. Regardless, I would love if more research into his music was being carried out to clear out this confusion...
The prevailing assumption to place the present C-major symphony to Hiller's early period appears to be a strong one. The following are my own conclusions – so please take them as you will – because in this case I must insist going against this popular opinion...
There is no "early" C-major symphony to my knowledge, or if there was, it hasn't been found. Incidentally, does anyone know the source which states Hiller composed a symphony in C in his early period? My own guess is that a Fraktur transcription error from "E" to "C" happened somewhere down the line of research.
The C-major symphony to which a manuscript survives, the same one published by R&E, must be the 1870s one. The handwriting, style of orchestration (and manuscript paper) used in this working manuscript is from Hiller's late period and couldn't have been composed in the 1830s. I think Howard Griffiths is mistaken in calling the C-major symphony a ca. 1829–34 work...
Yes, Alan, the F-minor symphony is the same one I created with Noteperformer in my youtube channel, a great piece, well worth hearing it finally being performed by real musicians! :)
I also recreated the C-major symphony with noteperformer.
A few of Hiller's symphonies appear to be lost: the "Im freien" (or "Pastoral") Symphony in G from the 1850s which was once performed in London, and there's an entry for another early symphony "Symphonie de victoire" in one of his composition notebooks, these are both missing...
...In any case, I'm really happy to hear Mr. Howard Griffiths has recorded these four! It's a very important undertaking for certain!
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 05 August 2024, 13:57'Im Freien' means 'In the Open Air' or simply 'Outdoors'. 'Pastoral' is close , but rather more general.
Incidentally, there has obviously been an attempt to catalogue Hiller's works (or at least some of them), as the Ries & Erler listing reveals. I'm assuming that HW means 'Hillerwerkverzeichnis', but the remainder is guesswork:
Symphony in E minor, Op.67 HW 1.67 'Es muss doch Frühling werden'
Symphony in E minor, HW 2.4.3
Symphony in F minor, HW 2.4.4
Symphony in C major, HW 2.4.6
Maybe '1.67' indicates a known published work ('1'), followed by its opus number ('67')?
Maybe '2' indicates an unpublished work (WoO?), '4' the category 'Symphony', and the third digit the presumed order of composition dates?
Does anyone know for sure?
To clarify this, the Hiller Werkverzeichnis listing is taken from the book "Proportio artificiosa raro usita" by Michael Gehlmann. The book includes the most complete Hiller worklist so far researched. A very handy and important study, this! The op.67 symphony is categorized among works with opus numbers, and the other symphonies are listed under the category 2.4: "Sinfonien und Orchesterwerke".
I started typesetting the F minor, but gave up, alas. I'm glad firstly that you went ahead and secondly that there will be a cpo recording to look forward to...
Re A minor concerto: I goofed. I was completely misremembering this from the description of the F minor piano concerto at Hyperion: "The work was first performed at the Paris Conservatoire on 4 December 1831 at a concert in which his Symphony No 2 in A minor and a Faust Overture were also performed."
The E minor symphony Op.67 was, I think, mentioned by Schumann in a letter (I think he mentions the motto, so it's not the earlier E minor symphony?) so it was premiered well before 1865- indeed the motto is a reference to the events of 1848.
Quote from: tpaloj on Monday 05 August 2024, 21:39The C-major symphony to which a manuscript survives, the same one published by R&E, must be the 1870s one. The handwriting, style of orchestration (and manuscript paper) used in this working manuscript is from Hiller's late period and couldn't have been composed in the 1830s. I think Howard Griffiths is mistaken in calling the C-major symphony a ca. 1829–34 work...
So we should be able to hear a clear development in style if the C major Symphony dates from the 1870s. The Symphony Op.67 is obviously in a later style.
The orchestration of the C major Symphony (according to the Ries & Erler score) features 4 horns, 2 trumpets and 3 trombones: does this tell us anything as the E minor and F minor Symphonies (assumed to be early) do not feature trombones? (Also: Op.67, which we know to be later, features 3 trombones.)
Here's a reminder of Hiller's E minor Symphony, Op.67 (first movement only):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc7VMLY6xY0&list=RDjc7VMLY6xY0&start_radio=1
IMSLP suggests a composition date of 1848. What do members make of the idiom in its historic context?
By comparison Hiller's piano concertos seem to date from around 1831, 1843 and 1875 or so. His symphony Op.67 was first performed 15 March 1849 (Fifield notes that the title of the symphony is a quote from a poem by Geibel.) (and was definitely conducted by Liszt in 1852), and may if I am right have some features in common with the piano concerto no.2 Op.69 premiered 6 years before that date.