Following the release by cpo of volume 1, volume 2 will contain:
Symphony in E minor (HW 2.4.3): 1829, revised 1830/31 - first version lost.
Symphony in C major (HW 2.4.6): 1876/77
Fellow-member tpaloj posted this about the C major Symphony back in May 2020:
I'd like to present another forgotten treasure here, the splendid C major symphony by Ferdinand Hiller – realized with Noteperformer! The dating of this work is not entirely certain: it was performed several times between 1877 and 1880 (according to dates and signatures from the musicians in the manuscript parts), but Goethe Universität gives circa 1830-31 for the actual composition year. Anyway, its premiere seems most certainly have been at the 54th Lower Rhenish Music Festival at Cologne in 1877.
The first movement alone is, in my mind, a genuine masterpiece. Note the initial 2 minutes spent exploring distant keys & the unusually syncopated treatment of the material, before settling for the first time in majestic C major... – the inner movements I'm less enthusiastic about, but the energetic Finale rounds the work up on a high note. Hiller's writing is so full of delightful details that by just typing up this one score I feel like having learnt a year's worth of lessons in orchestration.
It's long, though: manuscript full score's some 250 pages (!) I can promise you it was meticulous work. Unfortunately I had no means to study the undigitized manuscript parts, which would go a long way in proofing the score (Hiller writes messily it seems always when it's crucial of him not to be doing so). Hopefully I've been able to do Hiller even a little deserved justice with this – his voluminous legacy is, after all, still largely forgotten and unrecorded.
https://youtu.be/XY22op-F0bc
As an interesting aside, writing on some of the handwritten parts indicate this Symphony was performed at a "music festival" in Düsseldorf in 1880. However the Wikipedia listing for Lower Rhenish Music Festival tells that the 1880 festival was held at Cologne. Either the wiki info is wrong, or some other festival than LRMF was held in Düsseldorf that year....
Tuomas adds these details in his video description:
Ferdinand Hiller's unrecorded and unpublished Symphony in C major. The manuscript is undated, but it dates with near certainty to the 1860-70s. Some sources say 1831-32, but this, is false for several reasons, such as the type of autograph paper used, style, instrumentation etc.
Listening to the C major work again, my strong sense now is that this is a later work rather than an early one. It's something to do with the way the opening movement moves at a less frenetic pace than in the early works - and the same applies to the finale. Very interesting.
PS: All other symphonies by Hiller are LOST.
Has it really been 5 years since I created the transcription of the C major symphony? I'm very excited to hear Mr. Griffiths's recording once it becomes available. In the still very minuscule corner of musicology known as Ferdinand Hiller scholarship, it's a very precious event to finally hear this stunning symphony as it is meant to be heard: in the hands of an excellent conductor and orchestra!
In the years since creating the video, I've had the leisure opportunity to study many more scores by Mr. Hiller, and while initially I had mere doubts about the matter, I've grown to be adamant about the symphony having been composed in the 1860-70s. Given Alan's preliminary details about the upcoming volume in the series, CPO seems to agree with this theory, doesn't it?
Quote from: Alan Howe on Thursday 27 March 2025, 13:06PS: All other symphonies by Hiller are LOST.
For the record, aside from the lost earlier version of the E minor symphony, the lost symphonies are:
- Simphonie de Victoire à grand orchestre et un quatre parties. (incipits for all four movements listed in Hiller's diary dated 31 October, 1830)
- Symphony in G minor "Im freien", performed in England in the 1850s.
Thought "Im freien" was in G major, but it's not like we can consult the material to check!
The lost Symphony 'Im Freien' (HW 2.4.11) is listed in the cpo booklet of vol.1 as being in G major and dating from 1851/52.
Quote from: tpaloj on Thursday 27 March 2025, 17:47I've grown to be adamant about the symphony having been composed in the 1860-70s. Given Alan's preliminary details about the upcoming volume in the series, CPO seems to agree with this theory, doesn't it?
Apparently so, yes.
You're correct, it's G major, a slip of my "pen"! :)
Easily done. Shame the work is lost: it would be the second of Hiller's two middle-period symphonies, along with Op.67.
To summarise: three early symphonies (one lost); two middle-period (one lost); one late.
Brahms wrote this in 1873; please listen from 9:30 in and tell me he hadn't heard the finale of Hiller's C major Symphony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwxt3WcodUw
Quote from: Alan Howe on Thursday 27 March 2025, 23:06Brahms wrote this in 1873; please listen from 9:30 in and tell me he hadn't heard the finale of Hiller's C major Symphony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwxt3WcodUw
You're quite right, it's similar isn't it?! :)
However, while Hiller might just as well have copied the ostinato from Brahms for his Symphony, perhaps it's more the case that he was (conciously or unconciously) copying
himself: the 4-note ostinato also appears earlier in the beginning of the final scene to the first act of his 1862 opera "Die Katakomben". Take a look at this short sample I put together, you'll see the motif appear there (though here it's in a minor key instead):
Youtube link (https://youtu.be/LzD_Eo5snPE?si=TnHwC7RiKVDLXFKO)
Yes, that's very evident, isn't it? In which case it must have been Brahms who took from Hiller, no?
Side Note: looking at the Youtube video of the Brahms Haydn Variations with Herbert Blomstedt I can't be more impressed with what a masterful conductor he is - wish that his stated Berwald symphony re-study comes to fruition.
He is indeed a magnificent conductor IMHO.
As a small aside in regards the C-major Symphony... looking at Hiller's personal diary from 1876-77, a symphony is mentioned having been composed between August 1876 and January 1877. No key for it is given in these entries, though. Hiller writes:
- 31 August 1876: "... Skizzen zu eines Symphonie ..."
- 1 September 1876 to 2 January 1877 (on most days): "Symph." or "Symphonie" is written at the start of the entries.
- 3 January 1877: "Partitur d. Symph. beendigt".
More research would be needed to put all the information about this Symphony's problematic dating together...
Thanks for this update.
I really should have listened properly to this wonderful Symphony ages ago. I seem to be discovering more depths in it with each audition - and I'm more convinced than ever that this is a work from the 1870s. What rhythmic vitality the work has and what power! The release of Howard Griffiths' recording ought surely to be quite an event.
Set for physical release on June 6th. Already streaming on Presto Music.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9766439--ferdinand-hiller-symphony-op-67-symphony-in-f-minor (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9766439--ferdinand-hiller-symphony-op-67-symphony-in-f-minor)
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTc2NjQzOS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE3NDE5NjcxODJ9)
Just to be clear, Justin: you are highlighting vol.1, for which we already have this thread:
https://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,9721.0.html
Vol.2 has yet to be announced for release, although we know of its existence.
My mistake!
Not to worry, Justin. Thanks for posting.
Volume 2 to be released on June 18th on Presto.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9870368--ferdinand-hiller-symphonies-in-e-minor-c-major (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9870368--ferdinand-hiller-symphonies-in-e-minor-c-major)
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTg3MDM2OC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE3NzcyOTg2Mzh9)
Excellent news! Can't wait for it!
Would this be the E minor be Frankfurt Mus Ms 87 from 1831? The C major we of course know from Tuomas' sterling work, so this is a must-buy for me.
Excellent. It's really heartening that Hiller's music is gaining more recognition, in the recorded repertoire at least. He was a major figure in the middle of the 19th century, and I always found it puzzling that he was so underrepresented - maybe because he hasn't had a modern day advocate to champion his cause and make recordings happen?
Yes, it always puzzled me too since the Hiller wasn't only historically significant, his music is quite attractive, too. I like to think that Tuomas' work, which enabled people to actually listen to Hiller's orchestral music, had something to do with the (still modest) revival of his work. As chuffed as I am with this release, I also hope that one day we'll hear a (human) performance of the 1883 F minor symphony, as well as the Symphonic Fantasy.
It is a must-buy for me as well, although I confess I am a bit more tepid about Hiller's compositions than Ilja and Mark. He is listenable and even charming,but ultimately lacking "bite". The symphonies of Loewe and (dare I say) Pfyffer resonate more when I listen. The piano concertos are all pleasant but not such as to excite me to repeat the hearing all that often,not as individual as,say,those of Eduard Franck. Perhaps it's the pianist on the Hyperion that makes the composer come across as feline,almost twee. I shall await the brickbats.....
Just my opinion,of course. It's still a must-buy, but maybe I will wait until the next volume of the Potter symphonies (also conducted by Griffiths) is released before doing so. And I have a feeling that I will probably play that Potter more often than this Hiller
Is the 1883 F minor symphony extant, Ilja? I thought it was lost. The Symphonic Fantasy (1868) exists, of course, in MS.
Ilja, are you perhaps referring to the 1833 Symphony in F minor, which has actually been recorded earlier in this series by Griffiths?
https://app.idagio.com/albums/ferdinand-hiller-symphony-op-67-and-symphony-in-f-minor
Sorry - I am muddling things here. I thought Ilja was referring to the Symphony "Im Freien" which is in G, not F minor and in any case dates from 1854/5. That is lost - as we established on this forum, I think. As far as I am aware, there is no symphony dating from 1883 - at least, there is nothing listed in Michael Gehlmann's (detailed and exhaustive) catalogue of Hiller's compositions. And, as Tuomas points out, the 1833 Symphony in F minor was recorded on the first CD of Hiller's symphonies. My apologies for confusing matters.
Establishing any definitive listing of Hiller's symphonies is inherently very difficult, partly due to the composer never numbering any of them.
(There's also an unfinished and presumably lost symphony from 1884/85 that I wrote about in this forum some time ago.)
well, he only published one of them, leaving information on the others to a diary he didn't intend for publication and occasionally performing some of them but not doing much to promote them. Some composers still number some of their unpublished symphonies anyway (and leave some unnumbered that are published and some that are unpublished, similarly some recognized in their worklists and some not, etc.), which I suppose makes the more sense as publication is out of their hands, though degree of promotion isn't entirely (and again, fairly sure Hiller put most of his promotional effort into Op.67, though some of the others were performed occasionally in his lifetime.)
Quote from: tpaloj on Friday 01 May 2026, 18:22Ilja, are you perhaps referring to the 1833 Symphony in F minor, which has actually been recorded earlier in this series by Griffiths?
https://app.idagio.com/albums/ferdinand-hiller-symphony-op-67-and-symphony-in-f-minor
Hi, I was referring to this work (https://ubffm.hds.hebis.de/Record/HEB274632624/Holdings), which I don't remember seeing in a performance yet. But considering the potential for further confusion, I might be wrong entirely.
That is the E minor (not F minor) symphony recorded in the disk that has just been released. CPO have used the numbers from Gehlmann's Hiller Worklist. the University of Frankfurt Library catalogues their autograph copy as Hs. 87 and Gehlmann makes this clear in his entry:
QuoteSymphonie a grand orchestre, e-Moll. HW 2.4.3
Allegro molto vivace; Andante scherzando; Alla Marcia. Allegro non troppo; Chant des Pirates. Allegro
con fuoco. ♦ Quellen: Revue musicale, 1831, S. 348a; ,,Symphonie ä grand orchestre"; Konzert
am 4. Dez. 1831 in Paris, ,,grande salle du Conservatoire"; vgl. F.-J. Fetis: Revue musicale, 1831,
S. 353b. Ihl, Bd. 1, S. 408f. ♦ Komp.: Pa[ss]y, Septembre 31, Chant des Pirates: 5. Fevrier 1831 (Autograph
datiert). ♦ Autogr.: Univ. Frankf. a. M.s Sign.: Mus Hs 87. ♦ Anm.: Kompositionstagebuch,
Dez. 1830; Hinweis darauf, dass Hiller den Chant des Pirates umgeschrieben habe. Kompositionstagebuch,
Sept. 1831: ,,Allegro dazu umgearbeitet, Andante umgeschrieben."
Ehm yes, I was talking about the E minor because that was the one that was listed on the CD cover...
(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w1500/rear/0/0761203568222.jpg)
This recording has now been released. I just downloaded it from Presto, but those not immediately willing to commit can sample the whole thing on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWfY9o83_Vk&list=OLAK5uy_nGMhCApIKRJFd1cJkWVy41jgsJijOcqFw).
The excellent booklet text by Bert Hagels attempts to disentangle the chaos of Hiller's symphonies, coming up with this list:
- Symphony in E minor HW 2.4.3 1829, revised 1830/31, 1st version lost
- [Simphonie de Victoire in E flat major HW 2.4.2, 1830, lost]
- Symphony in F minor HW 2.4.4 1832, Finale revised 1833
- Symphony in E minor, "Es muss doch Frühling werden" HW 1.67 1848, revised 1854/55, printed 1865
- [Symphony in G major, "Im Freien" HW 2.4.11 1851/52, lost]
- Symphony in C major HW 2.4.6, 1876/77
That would mean that we now have modern recordings of Hiller's entire extant set of symphonies - although obviously not yet his "pseudo-symphonies", such as the G minor
Symphonic Fantasy of 1868 and the C major
Idyll of 1880. As Hagels explains, the alleged two E minor symphonies of 1829-1831 are various iterations of the same work, with the first version, which contained an entirely different third and fourth movement, having been lost. The third movement was newly composed for the version we hear on this recording, and the finale replaced with a probably already existing orchestral piece,
Chant des Pirates.
The E minor Symphony in this release (can we now call it "No.1"?) is a terrific example of early romanticism, written in the wake of Berlioz's Symphonie Fantastique, it is a highly original, uninhibited and inventive piece which receives a blazing performance here, and I enjoyed it very much. The Symphony in C major (No.6?) we know from Tuomas' excellent digital realisation. It's an effective work which deserves an occasional hearing but, despite an equally committed performance, to my ears it somehow lacks the originality and bite of the F minor of 46 years earlier, and perhaps showed that Hiller, for all his evident skill, hadn't moved with times. The booklet is indeed a model of its kind, by the way.
I don't disagree entirely with this verdict; the "6th" sounds a tad pedestrian compared to some other late Hiller as well, such as the quirky Idyll in C major.
By the way, although I think we can call the E minor symphony No. 1, of course Hiller didn't make it easy for us by writing the Simphonie de Victoire inbetween both versions of the E minor - which therefore could become both No. 1 and No. 3, I guess.
I was finally able to catch up a little on my backlog of recordings, and listen to both of the symphonies. I agree with Mark that between the two works, the performance of the E minor Symphony is somewhat sharper, more expressive and better measured on the whole. I was surprised myself how much life the orchestra was able to create even in the final movement, which at least on paper seemed monothematic and banal to me. On the contrary! Great work.
The C major Symphony is such a familiar work to me – and it's a more difficult task for the performers – that I would have been thoroughly surprised if they managed to pull it off in a satisfying fashion. The performance is somehow less sharp and insightful than I feel it could be: it's a valiant try, but not enough for me. The contrasts, accents and colors that I'm expecting to find just aren't all there on this recording.
The booklet does a commendable job of making some sense into the chronology of Hiller's symphonies. I do wish, as Ilja proposes, that the conductor and orchestra might continue this series by delving into Hiller's other orchestral works: the overtures, Symphonic & Dramatic Fantasies, Idyll, Aubade...
A batch has arrived and I am playing them in the order in which I expect to be the most disappointed to a probable winner - Hiller volume 2,the early Moszkowski symphony, Reichel, Reicha vol 1,and Potter vol 4.
Two (attempted) listens to the Hiller, so far. He is not a great composer of symphonic music and manifestly not a good orchestrator
The first of the two symphonies on this disc - the one completely revised from a (lost) first version - has its moments, but the monothemism alluded to in another post borders on monotony. The composition doesn't hang together - heaven knows what the first version must have sounded like! And the use of the timpani in the first movement leaves a lot to be desired - I wrote down "obtrusive to the point of being obstreperous"
As to the 1870's symphony, well,I have twice made the mistake of attempting to play the whole CD through in one sitting. Both times ,I fell asleep during this work. Tonight, I shall play it first ,and hope to avoid snoring.
I've been putting off giving the F minor symphony a listen but I absolutely mean to do so, not least because at one point - not recently - I meant to create typeset parts from the score, or something like that, and was making a little progress with the first movement which impressed me reasonably as I went through it...
Back in the 50s , long before I ever heard the Dvorak New World, there was an advertising jingle - "Fry's Turkish Delight". It has spoiled my enjoyment of that symphony's finale.
I was reminded of that when I (partially) stayed awake for Hiller's 1870's symphony. Back in kindergarten, we used to be made to sing "All Things Bright and Beautiful". The opening theme of the first movement of the Hiller is sufficiently like that ditty to be a real downer.
Sometime before the end of the fourth movement, I was asleep again. That makes three out of three. Returning to my 50s musings, I vote this symphony a "miss".
So, you're not a Hiller fan then, Terry?
Hm yes, as much as I value the subjective experience, I feel we should be careful with using sleep induction and trauma caused by childhood ditties as a yardstick for assessing musical compositions. And perhaps, be honest enough to acknowledge that just because we don't like something it doesn't mean it's bad. For example, I can't get excited about Cipriani Potter's symphonies, but I don't think that means his music is somehow inferior – it simply means it doesn't provoke a strong enough emotional reaction in me to truly enjoy it.
As will be clear, I couldn't disagree more with Terry's dismissal of Hiller as a composer. Admittedly, I have long had a soft spot for his music since it projects such an attractive joie de vivre. But I also think it does so effectively, with generally interesting thematic material and effective orchestration. Now that we can listen to most of the symphonies, it's also easier to see the highlights and dead spots, and the former far outnumber the latter, in my view. Of course, it's not all perfect; Berlioz accused Hiller of over-noodling the development of the theme in the Finale of the 3rd F minor symphony of 1833 (although I am biased enough to rather enjoy that movement), but on the other other hand the endorsement of people such as Schumann, Mendelssohn and Chopin (and patronizing dismissal by Wagner) must count for something.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Monday 24 August 2026, 19:04So, you're not a Hiller fan then, Terry?
I'm beginning to get that feeling. I don't want to jump to conclusions, but certain indicators cannot be ignored.
Quote from: Ilja on Tuesday 25 August 2026, 09:35Hm yes, as much as I value the subjective experience, I feel we should be careful with using sleep induction and trauma caused by childhood ditties as a yardstick for assessing musical compositions.
This statement is to musical analysis what "watery tarts handing out swords to passing knights is no basis for a system of sound government" was to political science.
We, who are about to laugh, salute you.
"Desert worms distributing mind altering substances is NO basis for a system of government!" (related meme posted to a DUNE-related group on Facebook a few days ago. ... Sorry.)
I've given the earlier symphony a few more spins and it has grown on me, once I have got myself past the insensitive timpani in the opening movement (think of the concert in "Carry On Teacher", so notably conducted by Charles Hawtrey). I was far too harsh, and it has become very pleasant listening.
That's good to read, Terry. I do think that Hiller, especially in his early years, is an interesting composer and it's not difficult to see why he was regarded so highly initially, even if he didn't move with the times later on in his career.