Following the release by cpo of volume 1, volume 2 will contain:
Symphony in E minor (HW 2.4.3): 1829, revised 1830/31 - first version lost.
Symphony in C major (HW 2.4.6): 1876/77
Fellow-member tpaloj posted this about the C major Symphony back in May 2020:
I'd like to present another forgotten treasure here, the splendid C major symphony by Ferdinand Hiller – realized with Noteperformer! The dating of this work is not entirely certain: it was performed several times between 1877 and 1880 (according to dates and signatures from the musicians in the manuscript parts), but Goethe Universität gives circa 1830-31 for the actual composition year. Anyway, its premiere seems most certainly have been at the 54th Lower Rhenish Music Festival at Cologne in 1877.
The first movement alone is, in my mind, a genuine masterpiece. Note the initial 2 minutes spent exploring distant keys & the unusually syncopated treatment of the material, before settling for the first time in majestic C major... – the inner movements I'm less enthusiastic about, but the energetic Finale rounds the work up on a high note. Hiller's writing is so full of delightful details that by just typing up this one score I feel like having learnt a year's worth of lessons in orchestration.
It's long, though: manuscript full score's some 250 pages (!) I can promise you it was meticulous work. Unfortunately I had no means to study the undigitized manuscript parts, which would go a long way in proofing the score (Hiller writes messily it seems always when it's crucial of him not to be doing so). Hopefully I've been able to do Hiller even a little deserved justice with this – his voluminous legacy is, after all, still largely forgotten and unrecorded.
https://youtu.be/XY22op-F0bc
As an interesting aside, writing on some of the handwritten parts indicate this Symphony was performed at a "music festival" in Düsseldorf in 1880. However the Wikipedia listing for Lower Rhenish Music Festival tells that the 1880 festival was held at Cologne. Either the wiki info is wrong, or some other festival than LRMF was held in Düsseldorf that year....
Tuomas adds these details in his video description:
Ferdinand Hiller's unrecorded and unpublished Symphony in C major. The manuscript is undated, but it dates with near certainty to the 1860-70s. Some sources say 1831-32, but this, is false for several reasons, such as the type of autograph paper used, style, instrumentation etc.
Listening to the C major work again, my strong sense now is that this is a later work rather than an early one. It's something to do with the way the opening movement moves at a less frenetic pace than in the early works - and the same applies to the finale. Very interesting.
PS: All other symphonies by Hiller are LOST.
Has it really been 5 years since I created the transcription of the C major symphony? I'm very excited to hear Mr. Griffiths's recording once it becomes available. In the still very minuscule corner of musicology known as Ferdinand Hiller scholarship, it's a very precious event to finally hear this stunning symphony as it is meant to be heard: in the hands of an excellent conductor and orchestra!
In the years since creating the video, I've had the leisure opportunity to study many more scores by Mr. Hiller, and while initially I had mere doubts about the matter, I've grown to be adamant about the symphony having been composed in the 1860-70s. Given Alan's preliminary details about the upcoming volume in the series, CPO seems to agree with this theory, doesn't it?
Quote from: Alan Howe on Thursday 27 March 2025, 13:06PS: All other symphonies by Hiller are LOST.
For the record, aside from the lost earlier version of the E minor symphony, the lost symphonies are:
- Simphonie de Victoire à grand orchestre et un quatre parties. (incipits for all four movements listed in Hiller's diary dated 31 October, 1830)
- Symphony in G minor "Im freien", performed in England in the 1850s.
Thought "Im freien" was in G major, but it's not like we can consult the material to check!
The lost Symphony 'Im Freien' (HW 2.4.11) is listed in the cpo booklet of vol.1 as being in G major and dating from 1851/52.
Quote from: tpaloj on Thursday 27 March 2025, 17:47I've grown to be adamant about the symphony having been composed in the 1860-70s. Given Alan's preliminary details about the upcoming volume in the series, CPO seems to agree with this theory, doesn't it?
Apparently so, yes.
You're correct, it's G major, a slip of my "pen"! :)
Easily done. Shame the work is lost: it would be the second of Hiller's two middle-period symphonies, along with Op.67.
To summarise: three early symphonies (one lost); two middle-period (one lost); one late.
Brahms wrote this in 1873; please listen from 9:30 in and tell me he hadn't heard the finale of Hiller's C major Symphony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwxt3WcodUw
Quote from: Alan Howe on Thursday 27 March 2025, 23:06Brahms wrote this in 1873; please listen from 9:30 in and tell me he hadn't heard the finale of Hiller's C major Symphony:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vwxt3WcodUw
You're quite right, it's similar isn't it?! :)
However, while Hiller might just as well have copied the ostinato from Brahms for his Symphony, perhaps it's more the case that he was (conciously or unconciously) copying
himself: the 4-note ostinato also appears earlier in the beginning of the final scene to the first act of his 1862 opera "Die Katakomben". Take a look at this short sample I put together, you'll see the motif appear there (though here it's in a minor key instead):
Youtube link (https://youtu.be/LzD_Eo5snPE?si=TnHwC7RiKVDLXFKO)
Yes, that's very evident, isn't it? In which case it must have been Brahms who took from Hiller, no?
Side Note: looking at the Youtube video of the Brahms Haydn Variations with Herbert Blomstedt I can't be more impressed with what a masterful conductor he is - wish that his stated Berwald symphony re-study comes to fruition.
He is indeed a magnificent conductor IMHO.
As a small aside in regards the C-major Symphony... looking at Hiller's personal diary from 1876-77, a symphony is mentioned having been composed between August 1876 and January 1877. No key for it is given in these entries, though. Hiller writes:
- 31 August 1876: "... Skizzen zu eines Symphonie ..."
- 1 September 1876 to 2 January 1877 (on most days): "Symph." or "Symphonie" is written at the start of the entries.
- 3 January 1877: "Partitur d. Symph. beendigt".
More research would be needed to put all the information about this Symphony's problematic dating together...
Thanks for this update.
I really should have listened properly to this wonderful Symphony ages ago. I seem to be discovering more depths in it with each audition - and I'm more convinced than ever that this is a work from the 1870s. What rhythmic vitality the work has and what power! The release of Howard Griffiths' recording ought surely to be quite an event.
Set for physical release on June 6th. Already streaming on Presto Music.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9766439--ferdinand-hiller-symphony-op-67-symphony-in-f-minor (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9766439--ferdinand-hiller-symphony-op-67-symphony-in-f-minor)
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTc2NjQzOS4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE3NDE5NjcxODJ9)
Just to be clear, Justin: you are highlighting vol.1, for which we already have this thread:
https://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,9721.0.html
Vol.2 has yet to be announced for release, although we know of its existence.
My mistake!
Not to worry, Justin. Thanks for posting.
Volume 2 to be released on June 18th on Presto.
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9870368--ferdinand-hiller-symphonies-in-e-minor-c-major (https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/9870368--ferdinand-hiller-symphonies-in-e-minor-c-major)
(https://d1iiivw74516uk.cloudfront.net/eyJidWNrZXQiOiJwcmVzdG8tY292ZXItaW1hZ2VzIiwia2V5IjoiOTg3MDM2OC4xLmpwZyIsImVkaXRzIjp7InJlc2l6ZSI6eyJ3aWR0aCI6OTAwfSwid2VicCI6eyJxdWFsaXR5Ijo2NX0sInRvRm9ybWF0Ijoid2VicCJ9LCJ0aW1lc3RhbXAiOjE3NzcyOTg2Mzh9)
Excellent news! Can't wait for it!
Would this be the E minor be Frankfurt Mus Ms 87 from 1831? The C major we of course know from Tuomas' sterling work, so this is a must-buy for me.
Excellent. It's really heartening that Hiller's music is gaining more recognition, in the recorded repertoire at least. He was a major figure in the middle of the 19th century, and I always found it puzzling that he was so underrepresented - maybe because he hasn't had a modern day advocate to champion his cause and make recordings happen?
Yes, it always puzzled me too since the Hiller wasn't only historically significant, his music is quite attractive, too. I like to think that Tuomas' work, which enabled people to actually listen to Hiller's orchestral music, had something to do with the (still modest) revival of his work. As chuffed as I am with this release, I also hope that one day we'll hear a (human) performance of the 1883 F minor symphony, as well as the Symphonic Fantasy.
It is a must-buy for me as well, although I confess I am a bit more tepid about Hiller's compositions than Ilja and Mark. He is listenable and even charming,but ultimately lacking "bite". The symphonies of Loewe and (dare I say) Pfyffer resonate more when I listen. The piano concertos are all pleasant but not such as to excite me to repeat the hearing all that often,not as individual as,say,those of Eduard Franck. Perhaps it's the pianist on the Hyperion that makes the composer come across as feline,almost twee. I shall await the brickbats.....
Just my opinion,of course. It's still a must-buy, but maybe I will wait until the next volume of the Potter symphonies (also conducted by Griffiths) is released before doing so. And I have a feeling that I will probably play that Potter more often than this Hiller
Is the 1883 F minor symphony extant, Ilja? I thought it was lost. The Symphonic Fantasy (1868) exists, of course, in MS.
Ilja, are you perhaps referring to the 1833 Symphony in F minor, which has actually been recorded earlier in this series by Griffiths?
https://app.idagio.com/albums/ferdinand-hiller-symphony-op-67-and-symphony-in-f-minor
Sorry - I am muddling things here. I thought Ilja was referring to the Symphony "Im Freien" which is in G, not F minor and in any case dates from 1854/5. That is lost - as we established on this forum, I think. As far as I am aware, there is no symphony dating from 1883 - at least, there is nothing listed in Michael Gehlmann's (detailed and exhaustive) catalogue of Hiller's compositions. And, as Tuomas points out, the 1833 Symphony in F minor was recorded on the first CD of Hiller's symphonies. My apologies for confusing matters.
Establishing any definitive listing of Hiller's symphonies is inherently very difficult, partly due to the composer never numbering any of them.
(There's also an unfinished and presumably lost symphony from 1884/85 that I wrote about in this forum some time ago.)
well, he only published one of them, leaving information on the others to a diary he didn't intend for publication and occasionally performing some of them but not doing much to promote them. Some composers still number some of their unpublished symphonies anyway (and leave some unnumbered that are published and some that are unpublished, similarly some recognized in their worklists and some not, etc.), which I suppose makes the more sense as publication is out of their hands, though degree of promotion isn't entirely (and again, fairly sure Hiller put most of his promotional effort into Op.67, though some of the others were performed occasionally in his lifetime.)
Quote from: tpaloj on Friday 01 May 2026, 18:22Ilja, are you perhaps referring to the 1833 Symphony in F minor, which has actually been recorded earlier in this series by Griffiths?
https://app.idagio.com/albums/ferdinand-hiller-symphony-op-67-and-symphony-in-f-minor
Hi, I was referring to this work (https://ubffm.hds.hebis.de/Record/HEB274632624/Holdings), which I don't remember seeing in a performance yet. But considering the potential for further confusion, I might be wrong entirely.
That is the E minor (not F minor) symphony recorded in the disk that has just been released. CPO have used the numbers from Gehlmann's Hiller Worklist. the University of Frankfurt Library catalogues their autograph copy as Hs. 87 and Gehlmann makes this clear in his entry:
QuoteSymphonie a grand orchestre, e-Moll. HW 2.4.3
Allegro molto vivace; Andante scherzando; Alla Marcia. Allegro non troppo; Chant des Pirates. Allegro
con fuoco. ♦ Quellen: Revue musicale, 1831, S. 348a; ,,Symphonie ä grand orchestre"; Konzert
am 4. Dez. 1831 in Paris, ,,grande salle du Conservatoire"; vgl. F.-J. Fetis: Revue musicale, 1831,
S. 353b. Ihl, Bd. 1, S. 408f. ♦ Komp.: Pa[ss]y, Septembre 31, Chant des Pirates: 5. Fevrier 1831 (Autograph
datiert). ♦ Autogr.: Univ. Frankf. a. M.s Sign.: Mus Hs 87. ♦ Anm.: Kompositionstagebuch,
Dez. 1830; Hinweis darauf, dass Hiller den Chant des Pirates umgeschrieben habe. Kompositionstagebuch,
Sept. 1831: ,,Allegro dazu umgearbeitet, Andante umgeschrieben."
Ehm yes, I was talking about the E minor because that was the one that was listed on the CD cover...
(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w1500/rear/0/0761203568222.jpg)