Hello everyone,
A few years ago, I saw this beautiful but rather uncomfortable Swedish period drama film called "Den Goda Viljan" ("The Best Intentions", based on the relationship of Ingmar Bergman's parents), and early on in the film, there is a scene in which a quintet for clarinet, violin, viola, cello, and piano, is played at a dinner party. The scene can be watched here starting at exactly 9:00: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OR_3XRIgiNY
Does anyone know what this piece is? It sounds like it's from the late classical era, perhaps late 18th/early 19th century, but I honestly have no idea who wrote it or where it's from. I have a feeling it might be an instrumental arrangement of an operatic number or a song, since I could find no such quintet on IMSLP which would match the style, time period, or musical content. It kind of sounds like something Mozart would have written. Unfortunately the end credits don't provide any info on this piece, and IMDB mentions nothing about it.
What do you think? It is a rather lovely piece to my ears.
(Edit - feel free to move this to "Composers and Music" if it feels inappropriate for this channel.)
The end-credits mention 'Stefan Nilsson' under the category of music for the film. Is it possible that the music was specially composed?
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 28 March 2025, 08:10The end-credits mention 'Stefan Nilsson' under the category of music for the film. Is it possible that the music was specially composed?
It's very possible. But I am a bit unsure of this is because when I look up the film music tracks for this movie (which can be found on YouTube, and which were released on a CD of other soundtracks by Nilsson), this piece was not one of them. Of course, that doesn't mean it wasn't composed by Nilsson, as it has happened before that releases of OSTs omit some tracks from the film score. Besides this, the quintet only appears once in the film, and the rest of the soundtrack - beautiful as it is - is in a different style from this piece, quite minimalist in style.
Later in the film, several scenes make use of other older pieces of music, mostly German and Swedish hymns (since part of the film is set in church). All of this made me think the quintet might be something older, but I don't really know.
Quote from: Theodore S. on Friday 28 March 2025, 08:58All of this made me think the quintet might be something older
Quite so. Either that or a clever pastiche. If it's 18th century (e.g. Mozart?), it's not my period
In my understanding, early large scale piano chamber music (bigger than a piano quartet) are usually seen as scaled-down piano and orchestra works. The rise of original piano quintet is a quite late phenomenon, I think the majority of them appears after 1860. But these are mostly quintets for piano and strings (and quite a few for only winds). The instrumentation of quintets for piano, winds and strings appears much later, though examples of quintets for piano and winds only are written by Mozart and Beethoven (one each).
I think it is unlikely that a string part in a piano quintet with strings would be arranged for a wind instrument. In reverse, substituting wind instrument for string instruments is a usual option in chamber music, but substituting some of them?
If it is an original work and not a pastiche, I think it goes against an analysis of the major trend......
Then there is bottomless hole of the possibility that this is a down-sized arrangement of a work with larger instrumentation for in-home playing and as a preview of the "whole" work.
Anyway, last year I started to compile a list of recorded piano quintets and I can list the ones that features piano, clarinet and strings (on the assumption that the quintet in this film is an already "known" one) that is not modern, though clearly none of which is the the answer to your question (most of them stylistically far removed and maybe anachronistic to the setting):
1. a variation by Ernest Walker
2. Josef Labor's Op. 11
3. Franz Schmidt's two quintets for this instrumentation
4. Weingartner's
There are 3 more works for this instrumentation from modern period that I know of, and there is an equal amount of recorded quintets written for two winds, two strings and piano (Draeseke's quintet with horn is much rarer example of a quintet for a wind that is not clarinet, strings and piano among the recorded piano quintets).
Then I realized there is another possibility: that the piano part is originally for harp. Is there a harp quintet like this? I don't know...
The standard instrumentation piano quintet is usually credited to , if not Schumann, then around that time, and variations on that (clarinet, string trio, piano) from later still. But it's not impossible that this could be, e.g., a brief arrangement of a work for the more standard instrumentation of winds and piano (think Danzi, Mozart, Beethoven, others) with most of the wind parts arranged for strings. Anyone sufficiently familiar with the repertory of Classical winds-and-piano chamber music might be more able to help recognize whether it's from one of the works they've heard, on listening to that part of the movie...
Quote from: eschiss1 on Saturday 29 March 2025, 09:54Anyone sufficiently familiar with the repertory of Classical winds-and-piano chamber music might be more able to help recognize whether it's from one of the works they've heard, on listening to that part of the movie...
This is what I'm hoping for myself - I'm admittedly not very well-versed in classical-era music, especially for wind ensembles. So, if it rings a bell for anyone here who is, please let us know!
Quote from: tuatara442442 on Saturday 29 March 2025, 04:57In my understanding, early large scale piano chamber music (bigger than a piano quartet) are usually seen as scaled-down piano and orchestra works. The rise of original piano quintet is a quite late phenomenon, I think the majority of them appears after 1860. But these are mostly quintets for piano and strings (and quite a few for only winds). The instrumentation of quintets for piano, winds and strings appears much later, though examples of quintets for piano and winds only are written by Mozart and Beethoven (one each).
I think it is unlikely that a string part in a piano quintet with strings would be arranged for a wind instrument. In reverse, substituting wind instrument for string instruments is a usual option in chamber music, but substituting some of them?
If it is an original work and not a pastiche, I think it goes against an analysis of the major trend......
Then there is bottomless hole of the possibility that this is a down-sized arrangement of a work with larger instrumentation for in-home playing and as a preview of the "whole" work.
Anyway, last year I started to compile a list of recorded piano quintets and I can list the ones that features piano, clarinet and strings (on the assumption that the quintet in this film is an already "known" one) that is not modern, though clearly none of which is the the answer to your question (most of them stylistically far removed and maybe anachronistic to the setting):
1. a variation by Ernest Walker
2. Josef Labor's Op. 11
3. Franz Schmidt's two quintets for this instrumentation
4. Weingartner's
There are 3 more works for this instrumentation from modern period that I know of, and there is an equal amount of recorded quintets written for two winds, two strings and piano (Draeseke's quintet with horn is much rarer example of a quintet for a wind that is not clarinet, strings and piano among the recorded piano quintets).
Then I realized there is another possibility: that the piano part is originally for harp. Is there a harp quintet like this? I don't know...
You have an interesting perspective on the matter. At this point, it seems to me that either the piece was composed for the film (for which I would have to applaud the composer for making a very convincing-sounding short classical piece), or it is an arrangement of a piece for a different ensemble. I think if it is an old piece of music, then it is very unlikely to have originally been written for this ensemble, considering so few pieces have ever been written for this ensemble, and that those few on IMSLP don't include this one.
In holding out hope that it is a classical/early-romantic-era piece, perhaps it's a "concerto da camera" arrangement, maybe from a clarinet concerto (the two most prominent instruments are the clarinet and the violin, so this seems more likely to me). Or, perhaps like I said earlier, maybe it's from a vocal piece.
Quote from: eschiss1 on Saturday 29 March 2025, 09:54instrumentation of winds and piano (think Danzi, Mozart, Beethoven, others)
I was completely ignorant of Danzi's 3 piano and wind quintets even after began to compile PQs for more than half a year. Thanks for mentioning this in passing.
The music from the Swedish film is an arrangement of the slow movement of Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante for oboe, clarinet, horn, bassoon and orchestra, K. 297b.
Thanks so much for identifying it. I'd've bet Mozart, but had no idea where to start looking.
Quote from: Revilod on Monday 31 March 2025, 17:49The music from the Swedish film is an arrangement of the slow movement of Mozart's Sinfonia Concertante for oboe, clarinet, horn, bassoon and orchestra, K. 297b.
Perfect, thank you so much! This is a piece I've honestly never listened to, so thank you for clarifying that!
Also, in the "arrangements" section on the IMSLP page for this Sinfonia Concertante, there is a score with an arrangement for 4 instruments and piano, with those 4 instruments being written either as woodwinds or strings (including the possible arrangement for clarinet and strings), and the piano matches the the recording from the movie. Even the timeline of the arrangement seems to line-up with the film's setting, so that was excellent research on their part. This is 100% it, thanks so much for solving this conundrum!
Pleased to be of assistance! You may know that the Sinfonia Concertante's authenticity, certainly in the form in which it has come down to us, is in doubt. ( Wikipedia goes into great detail about this. ) It may not be by Mozart at all so may be by an "unsung" and even unknown composer! Whoever wrote it, it is a wonderful piece and I find it hard to believe that Mozart did not have a hand in it at some point.
The consensus a century or so ago used to be, I think, that the version we actually have is possibly/probably an arrangement of a lost original version (but still by Mozart) for a -different- collection of soloists (that was Alfred Einstein's view), but I can believe that the consensus has changed since the 1950s...
Quote from: eschiss1 on Tuesday 01 April 2025, 18:52The consensus a century or so ago used to be, I think, that the version we actually have is possibly/probably an arrangement of a lost original version (but still by Mozart) for a -different- collection of soloists (that was Alfred Einstein's view), but I can believe that the consensus has changed since the 1950s...
There's a number of differing views. Robert Levin even wrote an entire book on the piece where he argues that some unknown person only had the solo parts and wrote the orchestral music and cadenzas from scratch. He also made a reconstruction of the original based on this.
Now I remember all the controversy surrounding this work, hence the odd "297b" Köchel number, K.297 being the familiar Mozart Sinfonia Concertante and this being what might be termed the Mostly Mozart Sinfonia Concertante.
A quite hard to predict answer: a work for four soloists and reduction of the orchestral part :o
It seems to me like it could be either way. If this was confirmed to be a relatively early Mozart piece from around the time of his Concertone for 2 violins, I wouldn't be surprised at all. There are enough mildly unusual things about the Sinfonia Concertante which could be convincingly-explained by both the Mozart and Not-Mozart camps. (The strangest thing to me is the choice of the keys, in that all the movements are in E-flat major - but Mozart did write multi-movement pieces where all movements are of one key, such as the Piano Sonata no. 11. Besides, his 2-movement Horn Concerti have more unusual structures.) But if it is an unsung composer's work, it's a very close second to Mozart's own music.
Quote from: John Boyer on Wednesday 02 April 2025, 02:56Now I remember all the controversy surrounding this work, hence the odd "297b" Köchel number, K.297 being the familiar Mozart Sinfonia Concertante and this being what might be termed the Mostly Mozart Sinfonia Concertante.
No, K 297 is Symphony No. 31,
A myriad of works have a catalog with a letter in them. Most of them are simply later attempts to place them in chronology (for instance, Symphony 31 is also K 300a). If by 'the familiar' one you mean the Violin, Viola and Orchestra one, that's K 364/K 320d.
K 297b is the work as we know it today, however the original, which is lost, is K 297B.
What'cha talking about? Mozart K.297 is his Paris symphony.
Btw "K6 300a" is no longer a thing. The new Kochel edition is doing things over again.
So, to sum up: we're talking here about K.297b, whoever it is by (in a chamber arrangement):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sinfonia_Concertante_for_Four_Winds - general info about the orchestral version.
https://imslp.org/wiki/Sinfonia_concertante_in_E-flat_major,_K.297b/Anh.C_14.01_(Mozart,_Wolfgang_Amadeus) - for details of chamber version: click on 'Arrangements and Transcriptions'.
Quote from: TerraEpon on Wednesday 02 April 2025, 12:59No, K 297 is Symphony No. 31,
[...] If by 'the familiar' one you mean the Violin, Viola and Orchestra one, that's K 364/K 320d.
Yes, that's the one I meant.