Unsung Composers

The Music => Recordings & Broadcasts => Topic started by: promusician on Tuesday 15 April 2025, 13:53

Title: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: promusician on Tuesday 15 April 2025, 13:53
I have been researching this composer after Howard Shelley's Hyperion recordings (PC #1 and #2), and also after Darrel's digital realization of his "3rd" Piano Concerto.

For this Concertino, there is some resemblance to Beethoven's Piano Concerto No.3, using the same key C minor, some material being re-used in his later concertos too. According to RISM, it was composed between 1800 - 1810 (also the years Beethoven composed his 3rd concerto) scored for pf, strings, 2 flutes, 2 oboes, 2 clarinets, 2 bassoons, 2 horns and trumpets, timpani.

The 3 movements are:
I) Allegro serioso
II) Adagio
III) Con moto e vivo

Again, myself is working with Darrel on the digital realization, already completed 1st movement.
According to Darrel, it will be few more weeks before we can finalize the score and generate a digital simulation.

I have made a simulation of the orchestral opening, to let you all have a rough idea how it sounds like.
Title: Re: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: Gareth Vaughan on Tuesday 15 April 2025, 14:16
What an impressive sounding opening. Well done again, and thank you. Looking forward very much to hearing the whole work.
Title: Re: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: Alan Howe on Tuesday 15 April 2025, 15:21
I agree - very impressive indeed.
Title: Re: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: Mark Thomas on Tuesday 15 April 2025, 15:46
Make that three votes for the opening.
Title: Re: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: JanOscar on Wednesday 16 April 2025, 23:01
Make it four!
Title: Re: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: pianoconcerto on Saturday 26 April 2025, 02:54
Darrel Hoffman's version of the complete work is now on YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIFaC-3_NSg

He labels it a Concerto rather than a Concertino.
Title: Re: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: promusician on Saturday 26 April 2025, 07:33
Quote from: pianoconcerto on Saturday 26 April 2025, 02:54Darrel Hoffman's version of the complete work is now on YouTube:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uIFaC-3_NSg

He labels it a Concerto rather than a Concertino.

I acquired the copyist manuscript from Goethe Institute, it states concertino
Title: Re: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: Darrel Hoffman on Saturday 26 April 2025, 08:27
There was no title page in the manuscript this time, so I wasn't sure what to call it.  One thing I have found (and confirmed through testing) is that I get far fewer hits on works that don't have the words "Piano Concerto" in the title of the video, so now even when it's something else like "Concerto Symphonique" or the like, I lie a little bit about the title to get more views.  I'll add a correction in the description, but I think I'll leave the video title the same to please the Algorithm.

The other factor was that my previous release of the Op.76 concerto was also labeled a "Concertino", and in fact the suggested runtime of the piece in the score was under 12 minutes for the whole thing, a suggestion which I found to be completely wrong.  It sounds impossibly fast when played at that speed.  (My rendition clocks in at over 32 minutes.)  I'm relatively certain that this suggested runtime was incorrectly copied from another piece.  I think there's just some overall confusion over naming in the Schmitt catalogue.
Title: Re: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: eschiss1 on Saturday 26 April 2025, 18:07
Is this Le retour à Francfort? Several Worldcat sources refer to it as a Concertino, for what it's worth, but also as -Op.75- rather than Op.76. One catalog entry says  "T.-p. wanting; title from Hofmeister's catalogue". Published by J. André around 1830. That may be a different work? There -is- a Schmitt Op.76  @ IMSLP, solo piano part only, but:
it's a concerto, it's in E-flat major not C minor, published in 1834.
Title: Re: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: eschiss1 on Saturday 26 April 2025, 18:09
"He labels it a Concerto rather than a Concertino." and explains why: "Note the Goethe Institute which provided the manuscript labels this a "Concertino" rather than a "Concerto".  I lied a little bit in the title because I get fewer views when the words "Piano Concerto" do not appear in the title"
Title: Re: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: Darrel Hoffman on Saturday 26 April 2025, 18:19
Yes, I just added that disclaimer in response to the question here.  I don't know if this is the "Francfort" piece.  It might make sense for this to be the Op.75, since a theme from it was borrowed and reused in the Op.76, which I did a few months ago: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnO9XcpLcxY
But if this one was indeed unpublished, it might not have any official opus number.
Title: Re: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: eschiss1 on Saturday 26 April 2025, 19:30
"Le Retour à Francfort. Concertino brillant pour pianoforté, accompagné de 2 violons, alto, violoncelle et basse, 2 flûtes, 2 hautbois, 2 clarinettes, 2 bassons, 2 cors ... 1 trombonne basse, 2 trompettes et timbales ... Oeuvre 75. 5me oeuvre des concerts. Édition d'après le manuscrit original, etc" - suggests that it's Schmitt's 5th concerto, Op.75.
Title: Re: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: Darrel Hoffman on Saturday 26 April 2025, 19:43
Yes, "Le Retour à Francfort" is indeed Op.75, that agrees with my notes.  But the question remains: Is that this piece?  That I don't know.  No key is given for the Op.75 so we can't use that for comparison.  The instrumentation is the same but that's true of all of his concerti.

And what, if anything, is the mysterious <12 minute piece mistakenly conflated with the Op.76?  I'm pretty sure that's not this piece either, as my rendition came out to almost 19 minutes, and I don't think speeding it up to play in under 12 would sound at all good.
Title: Re: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: promusician on Saturday 26 April 2025, 21:57
I am pretty sure Le retour Francfort is a different piece which again, I have the score with parts, it labels concertino also, as the 5th concerto in catalog. There is another 3rd concerto aka concertino no.3 without opus but published by Gombart. Manuscripts in Goethe institute all are unpublished, some are earlier versions to his published works.
Title: Re: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: Darrel Hoffman on Saturday 26 April 2025, 23:05
I also have a Concerto No.3 Op.54 (1823) listed with no key given.  I don't have the score for that, but  it is not the same as the Op.60 A minor concerto (1824-25) I did last year (the one with "God Save the King" in the 2nd and 3rd movements) which was also labeled "Concerto No.3".  As I said, the numbering of these is very confusing.
Title: Re: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: promusician on Sunday 27 April 2025, 00:07
These are the works listed from his catalogue, again still very confusing:

1. Concert in c-moll No.1 op.14b (seinem Freunde und Lehrer A. Andre gew. Verlag Andre)
2. Concert in d-moll No.2 op.34 (seinem Freunde und Lehrer A. Andre gew. Verlag Andre)
3. Concert in a-moll No.3 op.60 (gew. Diabelli)
4. Concertino in e-moll No.4 (Augsburg Verlag Combart and Co.)
5. Concertino brillant No.5 (le retour a Francfort) op.75 (gew. Andre)
6. Concert in Es-dur No.6 op.56 (76?)
7. Concert rondeau 'souvenir de Field' op.101
8. Variations op.41 (Andre)

Unpublished:
9. 3 Concerts in Fis-moll, D-dur, C-moll
10. Zwei Concertstucke in D, As-dur
Title: Re: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: Darrel Hoffman on Sunday 27 April 2025, 03:47
So this is where I think I got the Op.54 from:
https://imslp.org/wiki/List_of_works_by_Aloys_Schmitt
It's possible that's incorrect as I believe it is all user submissions.  Sadly no score is available, so the year (1823/4) is the only thing we have to identify it.  It also mentions Andre for whatever that's worth.  I think we might be dealing with 2 or more competing catalogues, that have given different numbers to some works?
Title: Re: Aloys Schmitt - Concertino in C minor (synthesized)
Post by: Darrel Hoffman on Monday 28 April 2025, 06:48
Okay, so apparently "Le Retour a Francfort" has a chorus part in its 3rd movement, that makes it definitely distinct from the C minor concerto.  The name or a translation of it is also shared by several poems, in French, German, and English at least.  Most of them seem too recent to be Schmitt's inspiration, but not all.

From the bits I've seen in the score, the text is pretty unreadable, though it appears to be in French.  (I'm somewhat fluent in French, but the penmanship is very rough.)  If anyone here is well-versed in French poetry from this time period, that could be very helpful.

Not that I have the ability to simulate singing actual words in my transcriptions (which is relevant to my current project doing Henri Herz's 6th concerto), though it's possible I may be able to make a connection to a real choir.