That the name of Felix Draeseke will be widely known among the members of this forum is, I believe, a reasonable assumption. And most likely the same assumption can be made about his most prominent works, not the least among which is his Symphony No.3, "Tragica".
But what about Symphonies Nos.1, 2 and 4? I myself have known his Nos. 1 and 2 for almost 15 years now, and every time I return to them, I end up being in disbelief that music of that kind of depth and compositional substance, of that level of beauty and craftmanship can be so utterly absent from our concert programs. I am not aware that there exists even a small Draeseke festival of some kind that would at least once in a year (or two years) perform a selection of his major works.
Did anybody here ever have the opportunity to hear his Nos. 1 and 2 in concert? And in general, what is your opinion of these works?
I share your astonishment and your frustration. Unfortunately, despite the existence of excellent recordings, Draeseke's music is rarely performed in public, which is an absolute scandal. However, you may find this website useful: https://www.draeseke.org/
There was a song recital with some of his songs in Coburg this past January, but that's the exception, not the rule...
Thanks for that confirmation, Eric - sad though it is.
Well, I should say that I saw one announced, I don't know that it happened. Also, is this a CD or something being announced for 21 June? Event of Draeseke Lieder (https://www.coburgmarketing.de/event/lieder-von-draeseke) (CoburgMarketing.de) ...
It's just the concert announcement, with the usual location, performers, date, and time, and also a duration.
Quite an important venture with regard to the composer's Lieder, but it'd be good to know of any performances of his orchestral music.
Not a symphony, but an orchestral work, the Gudrun Overture, to be performed in Coburg this season: this (https://www.landestheater-coburg.de/stuecke/konzert/1-sinfoniekonzert-zueignung/). (The Coburg orchestra has some interesting programming, even including Bacewicz violin concertos and thelike...- so does the Wuppertal orchestra with which Hanson recorded the symphonies, now that I look at that, too! Good orchestras both, apparently.)
Thanks, Eric. Very much better than nothing!
Quote from: Alan Howe on Tuesday 27 May 2025, 17:25I share your astonishment and your frustration. Unfortunately, despite the existence of excellent recordings, Draeseke's music is rarely performed in public, which is an absolute scandal. However, you may find this website useful: https://www.draeseke.org/
Thank you for the link. I see you are based in England - did you ever have an opportunity to hear a Draeseke symphony in concert there (or in Britain in general)?
Quote from: eschiss1 on Wednesday 28 May 2025, 14:49Not a symphony, but an orchestral work, the Gudrun Overture, to be performed in Coburg this season: this (https://www.landestheater-coburg.de/stuecke/konzert/1-sinfoniekonzert-zueignung/). (The Coburg orchestra has some interesting programming, even including Bacewicz violin concertos and thelike...- so does the Wuppertal orchestra with which Hanson recorded the symphonies, now that I look at that, too! Good orchestras both, apparently.)
Astonishing. This is the first time I have actually seen a major orchestral work by Draeseke on a concert program in Germany, and I have been living in Berlin for the last 20 years. Probably only happened due to Coburg being the town of his birth.
How does the East of US fare in performing Draeseke's orchestral music? Did you ever have the opportunity to hear his symphonies (or even just overtures) in concert in New York, Boston or any other major city (relatively) nearby?
I haven't. I'm not aware even of any orchestral performances or chamber performances of Draeseke's music in the Eastern US since the 19th century, except for a few of his piano pieces at Bard University in the 2000s.
Quote from: GoranTch on Wednesday 28 May 2025, 18:35in England - did you ever have an opportunity to hear a Draeseke symphony in concert there (or in Britain in general)?
No, never.
His Jubilee (Jubel-) Overture Op.65 was at the Proms once, but I doubt any of us was alive back on 7 September 1905! (It's not ultra-clear from the website whether Wood or Verbruggen conducted it; research might elucidate :) )
(And when the opening of the Classicstoday article is "Felix Draeseke is best known for his monumentally long (and dull) oratorio Christus", I think some work really needs to be done. The new recordings of the string quartets are a good start-- but a new recording of, e.g., the cello sonata on a label with more than nominal distribution -- or many -more- recordings of it (why should so many wonderful currently-unknown works receive one recording, revealing only one aspect, each?) - would help. (I don't think it helps that Wollenweber charges an arm and a leg for critical editions, but recordings based on the first editions would hardly be horrible. This would leave out works like the lovely A major Stelzner-quintet for which the two are the same and the Wollenweber parts cost $110 or so, discouraging performance, but.))
I'm waiting for the day when we will finally get to hear the orchestrated version of his Violin concerto.
Quote from: FBerwald on Thursday 29 May 2025, 17:15I'm waiting for the day when we will finally get to hear the orchestrated version of his Violin concerto.
Me too. I have the score, but I can't interest anyone in a performance...
Oh, me too. It's a gorgeous work.
BTW Operabase seems to be a good website for finding some performance information past and present (edit: except for the fact that after a few uses, they expect one to subscribe at levels like 1500 pounds, so, not in my budget.) They list a performance of the Draeseke Symphonic Andante in May of last year in Kronach, as well as the upcoming (27-28 September 2025) performance of the Gudrun overture in Coburg...
Thanks, Eric. Do keep us updated if you ever catch wind of a Draeseke performance.
The Violin Concerto was now mentioned several times, and I must confess that I am not even aware of its existence - is there a recording of that piece that you would recommend? "Orchestrated version" - was it originally composed as a piece for violin and some sort of chamber ensemble?
Quote from: eschiss1 on Thursday 29 May 2025, 13:05And when the opening of the Classicstoday article is "Felix Draeseke is best known for his monumentally long (and dull) oratorio Christus"...
Wow. Talking about casually dismissing a first class composer in as smug and shallow a way as possible...
The Violin Concerto only exists in a violin & piano reduction - the original orchestration is lost, but a replacement was produced about a decade ago by Draeseke expert and pianist, Wolfgang Müller-Steinbach.
Please refer to this webpage: https://www.draeseke.org/news/IDG2009VC/index.htm
Christus is, I am afraid, a monumental bore. The only available recording probably doesn't help, but, on this occasion, I agree with that rather damning verdict.
Still, if this is what he's best known for (I wasn't aware of it) and not his symphonies (which I still think, pace the spirit of Alan Krueck, also don't have the very best of Draeseke's muse), it makes sure that we get off on the wrong foot from the start. A little like a contemporary article on Beethoven beginning by identifying him with his septet, to give an insufficient analogy (but if an analogy were perfect, it would no longer be an analogy...)
I'd still rescue the Tragica first from the bonfire...
Quote from: eschiss1 on Saturday 31 May 2025, 18:49if this is what he's best known for
Meaning? Please elucidate.
To most people, including fans of unsung repertoire, he's not known at all. To others, he's misunderstood because he doesn't fit in to some neat category. In reality, he's a one-ff, a 'harter Nuß', a composer whose idiom often requires a long, hard listen. He'll never be popular. But he deserves far better because his music is of very high quality.
Please request an elucidation from the author of the article, not from me, as I was clearly quoting it. I assume "best known for" has its usual meaning, known more than for any other thing, which can be a useful relative statement for the least-known of composers, and how well his music is known absolutely is not at issue here at the moment; that said, the author's statement is still asserted, not shown.
Apologies, Eric. I had simply lost track of the discussion - my fault. I see that the reference was to Christus.
Somewhat speculative, but large oratorios such as Christus were very much in demand during the last decades of the 19th century. That changed during the 20th century. From their size and length to the relentless seriousness of their subject matter, they seem to have become regarded as the symbol of all that was wrong with (bourgeois) musical culture. The wake of that rejection took composers with it that were preliminary known for such oratorios: that might explain not only Draeseke's longtime neglect, but also that of someone like Benoit or even Bruch. Even Mendelssohn's large choral works almost disappeared from concert halls.
I don't think that Draeseke's reputation was affected much by the failure of Christus, although that probably didn't help. If a masterwork such as his 3rd Symphony didn't make a permanent mark on the musicological map, nothing else was going to change the situation. Of course, he was overtaken by fashion, but then so was Brahms; and Draeseke's music was always a tougher nut to crack, which I think is where the problem lies. You just have to work harder at Draeseke...
Given how many composers of 20th century British oratorios (Boughton e.g.) were socialists, I'd be careful with generalizations, but...
Something of a confession: I do prefer symphonies 1 & 2 to 3 & 4, and more generally early Draeseke to late Draeseke. It seems to me that his earlier works were imbued with a contagious energy that often went missing later in his career. I can see why people would consider No. 3 the objectively better work, but I honestly don't enjoy it quite as much as its predecessors. Although I also think the work would benefit more than most from a really top-notch recording; the ones that we have are okay, but certainly not stellar.
I blame dear old Alan Krueck for my enthusiasm. I just wish there were more recordings...
There was a time, a decade or so ago, when Draeseke's reputation seemed to be on the ascendent, but interest seems to have faded again. I think Alan's analysis is correct, that it's largely down to his music being a "tough nut to crack". I must confess to finding it so, there aren't many of his works which give immediate pleasure in the way that a more accessible composer's do; I'd cite Raff as a not-so-random comparison. Of course, Draeseke's music at least has the reputation of having an intellectual depth which Raff's lacks, and therein lies it's value, but with the music of so many unsung composers being given an airing in the last few years, not to mention the exposure now available to women and black composers, perhaps it's not surprising that one whose work requires time and thought to appreciate fully has failed to keep the attention of recording labels and buyers.
Quote from: Ilja on Monday 02 June 2025, 21:13Something of a confession: I do prefer symphonies 1 & 2 to 3 & 4, and more generally early Draeseke to late Draeseke. It seems to me that his earlier works were imbued with a contagious energy that often went missing later in his career. I can see why people would consider No. 3 the objectively better work, but I honestly don't enjoy it quite as much as its predecessors. Although I also think the work would benefit more than most from a really top-notch recording; the ones that we have are okay, but certainly not stellar.
Well, this aligns very much with my perception of the symphonies over the years as well, but it is a the same time a strange thing: even though I (heretically) perceive Nos.1 and 2 to be more "rounded" masterpieces then the
Tragica, that Scherzo in the 3rd is to me just one of the most mesmerizing Scherzi in all of symphonic music.
Just one among so many rich details in that movement - the way in which that descending flute line is taken over by the celli, as they set in "too early" and overtake it with a kind of brazenly charming mischief... what an incredible compositional moment.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Tuesday 03 June 2025, 11:01I think Alan's analysis is correct, that it's largely down to his music being a "tough nut to crack". I must confess to finding it so, there aren't many of his works which give immediate pleasure in the way that a more accessible composer's do
Unfortunately, I tend to agree with this. Draeseke sometimes strikes me like a Bruckner who only wrote his 1st, 2nd, 5th and 8th symphonies... (in the sense of having written just the least overtly "beautiful" and accessible works).
One work of his that I know well and I would argue would be among the exceptions is the wonderful Serenade for orchestra.
Of Draeseke's symphonies I only know the first and the third, and had these been my introduction to the composer I would have never listened to him again. It was enough for me to avoid risking the second and fourth.
Luckily, my introduction was the quintet for piano, horn, and strings, a winning composition from first note to last that encouraged me to track down more. His clarinet sonata and cello sonata are also equally engaging works that I would cheerfully recommend to anyone. As for the rest, however, I can work up little enthusiasm.
Why is Draeseke, then, a tough nut to crack in most instances yet so immediately appealing in others? Or do others find an equal level of difficulty (or engagement) in all his work?
I had an extended email correspondence with Alan Krueck in the last few years of his life and also had the privilege of meeting up with him in London on one occasion. I think his knowledge rubbed off on me. Otherwise, I just enjoyed working on understanding his music; the joy for me is that his compositions are simply unlike anyone else's: he was a fully-fledged New German sympathiser who wrote in the classical forms, unlike Wagner, Liszt, etc. Nobody else of his generation achieved that feat.
Alan, how would you rate his Piano concerto. It didn't make much of an impression on me the first time. Should I revisit the piece?
I was introduced to Draeseke when I stumbled across that ancient 50's LP of his Third. I'm not sure that was the most favourable introduction to his music.
But the Serenade is a joy,and I am rather fond of his Piano Concerto,particularly the ebullient finale.
Quote from: FBerwald on Tuesday 03 June 2025, 15:23Should I revisit the piece?
Definitely - the slow movement's sublime. But avoid the version on MDG with its clattery piano; instead go for Becker on Hyperion:
https://www.prestomusic.com/classical/products/7978558--the-romantic-piano-concerto-47-jadassohn-draeseke
Quote from: FBerwald on Tuesday 03 June 2025, 15:23[...H]ow would you rate his Piano concerto. It didn't make much of an impression on me the first time. Should I revisit the piece?
Funny you should ask, because I have been listening to the Piano Concerto quite a bit over the past few weeks. It's hard to believe that an intellectual composer like Draeseke could write a work so monumentally vulgar (at least in its outer movements) as this.
From the opening movement, which seems to consist mostly of the piano trying to cram in more scales than the time allotted to play them -- and not much else -- to the finale, which opens with a dead-ringer for the theme from "Mr. Ed" and follows this with a tune straight out of a Victorian music hall, it's a work that wears its bad taste on its sleeve to the same degree that Tchaikovsky wears his heart.
...And yet...
And yet, we end up with a work SO bad that it's good. It's the sort of thing that Rubinstein would have written if he had a better command of form and orchestration. Draeseke's Piano Concerto is the very definition of a guilty pleasure, to be experienced in public with embarrassment and in private with mirth.
And in the middle of it all is a slow movement so sublime, as Alan aptly described it, as to seem to be the product of a different composer. It is, perhaps, Draeseke's most beautiful creation. When it is over, you'll want to queue it up for an immediate encore because you just don't want to spoil the mood left by the gentle ending.
Yes, by all means revisit the piece, but I would recommend the Tanski/Hanson on MD+G over the Becker/Sanderling on Hyperion. In terms of sound, the Becker/Sanderling has it all over the Tanski/Hanson. It is clearer and less tubby. We hear more orchestral detail, and Becker's modern Steinway is a better instrument than Tanski's 1925 Blüthner, which sounds improbably fortepiano-ish for a concert grand dating from my grandfather's 29th year.
But this is an example where the recording with the weaker sound is noticeably the better performance. I don't mean technically, because even here I think Becker/Sanderling play with greater virtuosity, but Tanski and Hanson consistently do a better job of bringing out the best in the music itself. Compare, for example, the final variation of the slow movement: Becker and Sanderling are pretty enough, but Tanski and Hanson play it so delicately -- words like "ethereal" and "gossamer" come to mind -- as to make you sit up in your chair to listen.
Sublime indeed.
It's so long since I listened to the Piano Concerto that I have no memory of it, so John's characterisation of it is both intriguing and confounding. I had Draeseke down as a serious, intellectual composer of serious, sometimes even daunting music. So, the slow movement aside, how did he come to compose such a trashy piece? I shall have to listen (to the MDG recording) first thing tomorrow...
For the PC, there's always Triendl on Telos, included in his set of the composer's piano music (which I think may now be deleted, sadly). I just find the piano on MDG trying to listen to.
And yes, the first and third movements are among the most extrovert music Draeseke wrote. Very OTT!
Oh, and by the way: Dr Krueck, enthusiast though he was for Draeseke's music, knew that the PC was less than the composer's best. I called it 'garrulous' and I think he would have agreed, although I don't have chapter and verse. I think it has to be enjoyed for what it is: a Lisztian pianistic potboiler with a sublime slow movement.
I keep hoping for more recordings specifically of the 2nd and 3rd quartets and the cello sonata and intend to promote them as I can :) ...
BTW, members may be interested in this rather fleeter radio recording of Symphony No.3 with the Nordwestdeutsche Philharmonie under Siegfried Köhler:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=07b-dCI5CyQ&t=780s
Very exciting!
Back, if I may, to the Piano Concerto. John Boyer called the outer movements "vulgar" and that's a very apt description. It's almost as if Draeseke is deliberately parodying the worst excesses of the virtuosic Lisztian concertos of his contemporaries. The bombast, oversized gestures and unsubtle orchestration of these movements are in stark contrast with the central Adagio, which is indeed lovely, but so out of keeping with the rest of the work. It really is the oddest, inexplicable piece.
Oh dear.
Apart from the Serenade, the finale of the Piano Concerto is one of the few compositions of Draeseke that I enjoy.
I can sense Lord Charteris's comments about the Duchess of York echoing in my ears. I must be irredeemably vulgar.it seems.
Quote from: terry martyn on Wednesday 04 June 2025, 12:27the finale of the Piano Concerto is one of the few compositions of Draeseke that I enjoy.
Well, you know that Draeseke's my favourite unsung composer. I take the PC for what it is: an unashamed display piece with a sublime slow movement. Love it!
Quote from: terry martyn on Wednesday 04 June 2025, 12:27Oh dear.
Apart from the Serenade, the finale of the Piano Concerto is one of the few compositions of Draeseke that I enjoy.
I can sense Lord Charteris's comments about the Duchess of York echoing in my ears. I must be irredeemably vulgar.it seems.
Are you familiar with the symphonies? Not necessarily just the
Tragica, but Nos.1 and 2?
While certainly not "light" Draeseke, these are masterly works while at the same time being more accessible then the 3rd symphony. The 4th,
Comica, is also a wonderful shorter symphony.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 04 June 2025, 12:20Back, if I may, to the Piano Concerto. John Boyer called the outer movements "vulgar" and that's a very apt description. It's almost as if Draeseke is deliberately parodying the worst excesses of the virtuosic Lisztian concertos of his contemporaries. The bombast, oversized gestures and unsubtle orchestration of these movements are in stark contrast with the central Adagio, which is indeed lovely, but so out of keeping with the rest of the work. It really is the oddest, inexplicable piece.
Ok, now I really am intrigued to listen to that one... Don't remember the last time somebody wrote about a piano concerto in terms of it being "the oddest, inexplicable piece"...
Yes, I have all his symphonies in my collection. I am going to give numbers 1 and 2 another spin,in the light of your strong recommendation.
I fear that the Third will never be for me,and I listened to Alan's YouTube recommendation the other day. I was shaken,but not stirred.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 04 June 2025, 12:20It's almost as if Draeseke is deliberately parodying the worst excesses of the virtuosic Lisztian concertos of his contemporaries.
Perhaps that's the point. It would not be the only time a composer took the opportunity to lay out a bit (or a lot) of irony. The outer movements are so un-Draeseke that maybe he was just playing it for laughs. What saves it all is that there is so much good humor in it, whereas Liszt's bad imitators are deadly serious in their
Sturm-und-Drang excess. Once you get past the initial bewilderment of the Lisztian bombast, the concerto can be enjoyed for what it is, which is a lot of fun -- Victorian music hall, Mr. Ed, and all.
QuotePerhaps that's the point. It would not be the only time a composer took the opportunity to lay out a bit (or a lot) of irony.
It would help, me at least, if I knew that was what Draeseke was doing. Is there evidence in Draeseke's writings or contemporary criticism which might support that idea? The otherwise excellent draeseke.org site only has a not-very-informative 2004 review (https://www.draeseke.org/essays/pianoconcerto.htm) (in German) of the work, and the booklet notes for the Hyperion recording major on Draeseke's apparent debt to Beethoven in the concerto! I no longer have the MDG booklet notes....
I don't think that Draeseke did irony - at least, not until the 4th Symphony. The PC is, I think, a genuine attempt at quasi-Lisztian grandiloquence in which it succeeds triumphantly. I enjoy the work for what it is, a one-off display piece: Draeseke, after all, was a one-off composer. There's nobody quite like him.
Quote from: Mark Thomas on Thursday 05 June 2025, 14:34I no longer have the MDG booklet notes....
According to Matthias Schaefers's notes, a review of the first performance described the concerto as "intended primarily for the display of virtuoso brilliance on the part of the interpreter of the piano part". Schaefers goes on to say that during the compositional process Draeseke told the dedicatee that he
was disturbed by the passage work when it came to the design of the overall structure of the work. As a result, for the time being he had made a purely symphonic design and planned to add the passage work in later on. In the outer movements [...], however, passage work and symphonic design sometimes appear as extremes between which no mediation at all seems to be intended. [...T]he beginning of the first movement is already indicative of what is to follow. The orchestra intones the main theme [...] but is interrupted by rushing scales and broken chords in the abrupt interventions of the the piano. It is only after the third entry of the orchestra that the piano part takes on motivic trenchancy -- and this only for a short time. [...T]he sections in the further course of the outer movements in which the piano is included in the motivic process are relatively short. The quality of the thematic material aside, Schaefers is suggesting that the piano part in the outer movements is worked in almost as an afterthought.
Quote from: John Boyer on Thursday 05 June 2025, 20:25described the concerto as "intended primarily for the display of virtuoso brilliance on the part of the interpreter of the piano part".
Thanks, John. And for the remainder of this fascinating review.
Thanks, John. That all seems to make sense.
A Swiss performance of the symphonic poem "Der Thuner See" in Thun in 1999 was apparently only the second time the piece had ever been performed.
The CD (or download) is still available from the Stadtorchester Thun, but the ordering information on draeseke.org is no longer up-to-date. This is the current contact information:
Thuner Stadtorchester
3600 Thun
Switzerland
mail@thunerstadtorchester.ch or info@thunerstadtorchester.ch
The CD is CHF 15.00 plus p&p, the download of the CD is CH 12.00 including a pdf of the booklet, the download of just the Draeseke piece is CH 5.00 (with booklet pdf).
A member of the Internationale Draeseke Gesellschaft has combined "Der Thuner See" with images of Lake Thun and surroundings in this film (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Up2mHC07ci4&pp=ygUZRHJhZXNla2UgLSBEZXIgVGh1bmVyIFNlZQ==).
Thanks for all this information. This is prime late Draeseke in quite an advanced idiom, demonstrating once again his individuality as a composer. The work really needs a real-world recording by a top orchestra, but nobody seems interested.
Quote from: terry martyn on Thursday 05 June 2025, 11:17Yes, I have all his symphonies in my collection. I am going to give numbers 1 and 2 another spin,in the light of your strong recommendation.
I fear that the Third will never be for me,and I listened to Alan's YouTube recommendation the other day. I was shaken,but not stirred.
Especially if you are in for some wonderful slow Draeseke, no better place to start than the Adagio of the 1st Symphony... but I would go with Hanson's recording for this one (I find it "softer" and more thoughtfully paced, Weigle is sometimes too rushed for me, though I very much enjoy the panache with which he executes e.g. the Finale).
Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 31 May 2025, 17:32The Violin Concerto only exists in a violin & piano reduction - the original orchestration is lost, but a replacement was produced about a decade ago by Draeseke expert and pianist, Wolfgang Müller-Steinbach.
Please refer to this webpage: https://www.draeseke.org/news/IDG2009VC/index.htm
Christus is, I am afraid, a monumental bore. The only available recording probably doesn't help, but, on this occasion, I agree with that rather damning verdict.
Thank you for that information on the Violin Concerto.
Christus - I presume you have that only available recording, is it this one?
(https://media1.jpc.de/image/w2400/front/0/4011563101758.jpg)
Yes, I've had it for years. All I can say is: don't bother. It's an interminable bore. And I'm a Draeseke fan!
Quote from: GoranTch on Monday 09 June 2025, 06:17no better place to start than the Adagio of the 1st Symphony... but I would go with Hanson's recording for this one
Yes, unequivocally. The slow movement's far too rushed in Weigle's performance.
... if you're in for some wonderful slow Draeseke and have a range beyond the symphonies that are the topic of this thread, find a recording (there's only one commercially, but I think there may be another on YouTube) of the viola alta sonatas and hear the slow movement of the 1st (C minor). Or... well, there's quite a few, really (that I, anyway, rate above any of those of the symphonies. He had a knack for melting chamber slow movements.)
From memory the commercial recording on AK Coburg features a rather wiry-toned soloist; I'd choose an alternative, if you can find it...
...actually, two points:
1. I know of an alternative (private) recording of Viola Sonata No.2, but not of No.1. Can you shed any light, Eric?
2. The slow central movement of Viola Sonata No.1 is exactly as Eric describes it. Utterly typical of Draeseke, it simply couldn't be by anyone else. But it needs a better recording, with a better violist.
No, because I don't either. I think I know of two alternate recordings of no.2 - one from a Draeseke Society thing and the other made for KUHF-FM (I've heard the latter), using viola alta unlike the recording with viola-tout-court from AK-Coburg that I have, glad to hear both. I'm no purist and am happy to hear a good performance of either sonata on either instrument, though the prices I suspect the publisher charges (as with the string quintet in A major) may encourage performers away from them, frankly...
Regarding the violin concerto, when I heard the AKCoburg recording of Draeseke's scene for violin concerto (the notes to which mention thematic connections with one of the composer's operas), I heard familiar motives : the violin concerto, whose reduction I had then first heard recently, had music that sounded very much right out of the (later, actually- 1899 as against 1881) Scene. The sort of thing a composer understandably does, maybe, when he has no further expectation of hearing a work again? (As with Prokofiev and a major opera of his that's more often heard in orchestral "suite" form as his 3rd symphony, just for example...)
(The dedicatee of the Scene was also, btw, the dedicatee of Urspruch's violin sonata.)
One other thing, says Co.. er.. .
The 2nd viola sonata (1902) is really good, has the advantage of having a recording available (from draeseke.org for free, as I recall, and another on YouTube), and is in a way just a little bit Schubertian- maybe :)
Keep posting, Eric! You're almost cheering me up! (New Draeseke recordings seem to have dried up completely.)
I've uploaded a recording of the Viola Alta sonata No. 2 to the Downloads board. Not sure whether it's the recording Alan referred to, although given the scratchy violist it probably is. Its rarity in performance may also be due to the rarity of the instrument it's written for, even if you can play it with a "normal" viola. The recording here uses a Viola Alta built by Hermann Ritter himself.
Thanks, Ilja. Very good of you. That's the one I have and, from memory, I thought it was superior to the recording on AK Coburg.
Unfortunately the Draeseke.org essay which contains some nice music examples from the Wollenweber scores from the 2 viola sonatas contains none from the Larghetto of the first sonata (the music example "example 4" meant to be the beginning of the Larghetto is actually example 1 - the opening of the first movement - duplicated, for some reason. At least the opening of the cheeky finale of the 2nd sonata is excerpted :) (example 7) (https://draeseke.org/essays/violaalta_sciannameo_ex.htm (https://draeseke.org/essays/violaalta_sciannameo_ex.htm))
Quote from: eschiss1 on Monday 09 June 2025, 18:35... if you're in for some wonderful slow Draeseke and have a range beyond the symphonies that are the topic of this thread, find a recording (there's only one commercially, but I think there may be another on YouTube) of the viola alta sonatas and hear the slow movement of the 1st (C minor). Or... well, there's quite a few, really (that I, anyway, rate above any of those of the symphonies. He had a knack for melting chamber slow movements.)
Thank you for the recommendation, I have managed to trace the recording!
Great to see this lively and passionate discussion here!
In general I think of Draeseke as a very rewarding composer for them who study his music well into the details, and I would advice everyone interested in his style to take his scores and follow the harmonic and the contrapuntal procedures closely. There are some pieces (e.g. the finale of the Violin Duo-Suite) that really punish the players if they are not fully aware what they have to do. What is challenging is the often high tempo of the events, regardless if the music is slow or fast. But if you know these events by heart and you succeed in bringing them together into coherence the music will lose much of its "difficult" character.
Because no existing recording of any of Draeseke's symphonies can be called really appropriate, it is the more on yourself to dive into the scores. Speaking of myself, I only came to understand the development section of the first movement of No. 1 after doing my own reading and playing sessions at the piano. Neither Hanson nor Weigle really make the music "go" here for my ears.
Because the Thuner See was mentioned: Draeseke Society member Manfred Eibl has created modern editions of several previously unpublished orchestral works. Next to the Thuner See there are: Der Traum ein Leben, Feenzauber, Academic Festival Overture, and Germania-Marsch. If you are interested in the scores, let me know, I will help you.
Agreed, though I'm glad I have a nearby library that was able to loan me the score of the Comica, I would not have been able to afford it.
(I'm -still- confused as to its key, did the composer himself describe it as being in E minor?... The "innocent ear" would say G major :) )
This essay hedges its bets: 'e-minor/G-major': https://www.draeseke.org/essays/sym4.htm#en
Your ears are not wrong. It is in fact a symphony in G major: Both first and last movements end in this key. But Draeseke creates a kind of masquerade by using elements of E minor at prominent places. The first movement begins with an E minor chord that opens a subdominant cadence to the main theme in G major. The exposition ends in B major, the dominant of E minor. In the recapitulation the second group opens in E minor (turning to the dominant of G major). The opening of the main theme of the last movement is built in a very similar way to the introductory bars of the first movement: Dominant of E minor - subdomaninant cadence - G major. An argument that the last movement can not be in E minor could be made by looking at its second theme, which is in clear E major. If Draeseke had really thought of E as the main tonality he would not have written both themes of a sonata exposition in it. But it fits very well into the "masquerade" scheme of the whole work: first movement exposition G-B, last movement exposition G-E --> if you look at the keynotes you have an E minor triad...
Thanks! Great to have an expert on hand to explain Draeseke's compositional processes.
Concerning the Violin Concerto: is there any possibility of a recording using Wolfgang Müller-Steinbach's orchestration?
Dave adds his 2 cents to our discussion (https://youtu.be/0c0iQKBULa8?si=eTx8iTuB8c14r8cw&t=502).
I suppose we should be grateful for the mention, but I wonder how much of FD's music he really knows...
Rainolf: it's not so much whether the outer movements end in that key as whether the first movement is based on that key. And to my ears even the first subject of the first movement is arguably in G major. (Basically, unless you have a slow introduction, which can be ignored, the key of a sonata-form work is -usually-, I think that which its first movement's keys can best be interpreted around- this is where Schoenberg's book "Structural Functions in Music" is a good and interesting and useful read, I think.)
GoranTch- I hope you enjoy both works, and hope to hear your thoughts on them...
Quote from: Rainolf on Friday 13 June 2025, 23:35Because no existing recording of any of Draeseke's symphonies can be called really appropriate, it is the more on yourself to dive into the scores. Speaking of myself, I only came to understand the development section of the first movement of No. 1 after doing my own reading and playing sessions at the piano. Neither Hanson nor Weigle really make the music "go" here for my ears.
While, speaking for myself, I am capable of thoroughly enjoying both Weigle and Hanson recordings of the symphonies and I think they are both good enough to introduce any open-minded listener to the richness and depth of these grand works, I very much agree with going into the scores as the way to really deepen and enrich one's "symphonic Draeseke experience".
I will never forget listening to Weigle's Finale of No.1 with the score for the 1st time - only from there did I truly begin to appreciate the beauty and sophistication of that fabric of secondary voices which Draeseke so masterly weaves throughout that movement. The score suddenly made the details which I was only hearing as a kind of a "background" come to life in a very immediate and "three-dimensional" way.
Quote from: eschiss1 on Tuesday 10 June 2025, 22:46Unfortunately the Draeseke.org essay which contains some nice music examples from the Wollenweber scores from the 2 viola sonatas contains none from the Larghetto of the first sonata (the music example "example 4" meant to be the beginning of the Larghetto is actually example 1 - the opening of the first movement - duplicated, for some reason.
Apologies for the self-quote, but following up briefly: I tried reporting this at the site, the site reported an error but wouldn't elaborate. Tried a different browser, same result. Not an important thing, that, and they do offer a "snail-mail" alternative for comments that I think they're trying in this manner to encourage...
I have the unfortunate impression that nobody either in the US or in Germany is really interested in actively promoting Draeseke's music to the wider classical music-loving public. I am afraid that this has largely been the case since the passing of Dr Alan Krueck back in 2010. We are fortunate to have much of his music on CD, but there are yawning gaps that no-one seems determined to fill.
I hope someone here got to attend the Draeseke song concerts in late June that are the only exception I can think of to an unfortunate rule :) - and that they were really well performed!
Such ventures are, of course, to be welcomed, but they need to be linked to recordings so that they can reach a much wider audience.
If you don't know Draeseke's Symphonic Prelude to Penthesilea, Op.50 from 1888, do try Hanson's recording:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKyL2iP8a0s
Quote from: Alan Howe on Friday 04 July 2025, 13:53I have the unfortunate impression that nobody either in the US or in Germany is really interested in actively promoting Draeseke's music to the wider classical music-loving public. I am afraid that this has largely been the case since the passing of Dr Alan Krueck back in 2010. We are fortunate to have much of his music on CD, but there are yawning gaps that no-one seems determined to fill.
I must confess that reasons for this are a mystery to me. Why would it be so difficult to program a Draeseke symphony once in a while instead of playing only Brahms, Bruckner etc. all the time? One doesn't even have to have a whole concert with just unsung works, what is preventing the programming directors or whoever is in charge of making these decisions to make a program which consist e.g. of Mendelssohn's Hebrides overture, Schumann's Violin Concerto and Draeseke's 2nd Symphony?
I cannot imagine that, on average, such a concert would draw an audience any smaller than your standard "well known names" only concert. Any ideas (or knowledge?) on why we have this sorry state of affairs?
Ignorance; extreme risk aversion; lack of imagination.
There is plenty of all three among those responsible for programming concerts.
Sadly, Gareth is right.
Unfortunately, the performance of the Gudrun Overture in Coburg on Draeseke's 190th birthday was canceled. Due to the death of an orchestra member, the program was changed and the deceased trombonist's favorite piece, approximately of the same length, was played instead.
Although the artistic directorate is just as familiar with Draeseke's published song collections as with the newly published orchestral works, there appears to be little ambition to perform his works, even in his hometown.
While the Draeseke Society is nominally based in Coburg, it has only a few members there, everyone an older person, so its lobby in the local music scene is apparently too small to exert sufficient influence.
One can only hope that the situation will improve at least by the 200th anniversary in 2035.
This is desperately sad.
Sad, indeed. :(
At least in 2026, to celebrate the 40th aniversary of the International Draeseke Society, there will be one concert in Coburg:
The Ballot Quintett will play the String Quintet op. 77 (together with the Schubert Quintet) on 4 October, 11 AM, at the Kunstverein Coburg building.
That- looks like it should be "Baillot Quartet"?...
Quote from: eschiss1 on Saturday 03 January 2026, 23:56That- looks like it should be "Baillot Quartet"?...
It is this ensemble who, in slightly different cast, has made this fine recording of Bruckner's quartet and quintet:
https://www.gramola.at/products/9003643992412
Rémy Ballot, the conductor who recorded Bruckner's symphonies during the last decade in Sankt Florian, is active as a violinist, too, and selects musicians from the Klangkollektiv Wien for chamber music performances.