I've come across this on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NmdehEkDQmo), which purports to be a digital realisation of the first movement of a lost early B flat minor symphony by Brahms. I can find no reference elsewhere on the internet to this "sensational discovery", so presumably it's some sort of hoax. Does anyone know anything about it?
To my knowledge Albis Music is Walter Zielke's publishing firm/YT channel. That might mean he's preparing it for a performance.
Sounds like a solid piece (after a first listen), but am I the only one to hear familiar elements (such as that accellerando in the coda)? I haven't pinned them down yet, though.
It does have hoax written all over it. And certain AI apps can compose what you want in the style you want at the press of a button, so you don't even need to put much effort into it.
Walter Zielke is a serious musician and a specialist on a number of unsung composers, particularly Thieriot, so I doubt it is hoax if Zielke is the source.
Fair enough, but it's surprising therefore that nothing else has surfaced online about this, quite major, discovery.
It's a puzzle, isn't it? It certainly sounds rather fragmentary and 'questing' in Brahms' early Sturm und Drang style, but the lack of detailed provenance makes me highly suspicious. If this isn't a hoax, I want chapter and verse, please.
This is the video description:
A century-old secret revealed. A lost masterpiece – finally heard.
What had been rumoured among musicologists for decades has now become a breathtaking reality: The first movement of a previously unknown symphony by Johannes Brahms, composed in the unusual key of Bb-minor, has reappeared in an inconspicuous cardboard box from an estate in Vienna – among yellowed letters, discarded sketches and a cup that Brahms himself may never have washed.
'I have begun a symphony that frightens me.'
– Johannes Brahms, letter (allegedly to Clara Schumann, 1855)
This work bears all the hallmarks of the internally torn, deeply romantic sound world of the young Brahms – and yet it already hints at the orchestral power of his later symphonies. Dramatic tutti passages, sombre pathos, a theme of shattering power and tenderness – as if Beethoven had found a lost brother in the spirit of the North.
What do we hear here?
• A calm, mysterious theme that emerges from the depths – like a shadow from Brahms' soul.
• Orchestral colourfulness reminiscent of his later works, but with the radicalism of a composer who is still hesitant to reveal himself.
Historical context: In letters to Clara Schumann, Brahms complained about a symphonic project that was 'too big for my abilities'. For a long time, it was believed that these sketches had been incorporated into his First Piano Concerto – but now newly discovered manuscripts reveal that a fully developed first movement in Bb-minor existed – and remained hidden for over 150 years.
Now audible for the first time – with a virtual orchestral sound (Noteperformer 4.4, NPPE, Nucleus and VSL-Sample-Librarys).
Will this work change our view of Brahms?
Was his 'first' symphony perhaps not the first at all?
And what if he was never able to completely detach himself from this B minor symphony?
Discovered. Dusted off. Unveiled. Music history is being rewritten – with every note.
"'I have begun a symphony that frightens me.'" is, I seem to recall, a real Brahms quote, but it's about his 2nd symphony and from 1877, which he used to joke would be a very serious, tragic thing (and the first movement is a good deal more serious than some make it out to be, especially given that some make it out to be fluff.)
Until we have more details about provenance, I'm treating this as a hoax. Perhaps it's by Hans Franke, whoever he was...
It's disheartening when serious scholars have to resort to needless sensationalism to get their point across (I'm referring to the video description posted by Alan). I understand the purpose of discretion while preparing an edition, but with this video released, I don't see the point of holding back the info and sources.
I agree. It doesn't read like a serious piece of research. Like Alan, I am suspicious - and Herr Zielke is doing himself no favours if this is genuine.
QuoteThe first movement of a previously unknown symphony by Johannes Brahms, composed in the unusual key of Bb-minor, has reappeared in an inconspicuous cardboard box from an estate in Vienna – among yellowed letters, discarded sketches and a cup that Brahms himself may never have washed.
Are we supposed to take this seriously? Has the website involved been hacked?
It reads like an April Fools joke. (I checked to see if there is some sort of August 5 prank tradition, but no hits there.)
No, I suspect it's a prank to see who will take the bait. Perhaps we can expect a punchline soon.
I don't think it's a prank (Zielke promises more information soon), but the presentation - both the lack of provenance and the purple prose in the description - is rather off-putting.
I see he's replied to Alan's query on the YouTube post itself with "The details can only be published in a few weeks' time. Not on YouTube, of course", which begs the question why, if it's a genuine discovery, he posted this realisation on YT before the official announcement. It's all very odd.
Yeah, it's a strange way to go about things. Let's hope the details include publicly available scans of this manuscript, at the very least.
Thanks, Mark. I've replied to his response - we'll see what happens...
Quote from: Ilja on Monday 11 August 2025, 11:32[...] the presentation - both the lack of provenance and the purple prose in the description - is rather off-putting.
I'm in wholehearted agreement. It's all in such poor taste. Those of us of a certain age will be reminded of Geraldo Rivera and "The Secrets of Al Capone's Vaults". This is tabloid musicology.
--
Addendum: One of the things that struck me about the YT post was how AI-generated it felt. It had that weird quality of empty verbosity that so characterizes so much of AI slop. I've seen many people decrying how the internet is rapidly being overwhelmed by meaningless (and inaccurate) AI-generated content; well, I just encountered the following while searching for any other corroborating information about the alleged discovery of this alleged Brahms fragment:
https://news.pianoencyclopedia.com/article/the-hidden-beauty-7-unfinished-brahms-compositions-that-will-stir-your-soul (https://news.pianoencyclopedia.com/article/the-hidden-beauty-7-unfinished-brahms-compositions-that-will-stir-your-soul)
My question is: why? Why generate meaningless, inaccurate content like this?
Quote,,a Cup that Brahms himself..." that phrase is really a hoax.
This is the latest official response to my 'prodding'. The admission of a hoax...?
What pointless silliness. Herr Zielke is doing a good job of trashing his own brand.
Quotewell, I just encountered the following while searching for any other corroborating information about the alleged discovery of this alleged Brahms fragment:
https://news.pianoencyclopedia.com/article/the-hidden-beauty-7-unfinished-brahms-compositions-that-will-stir-your-soul
Thank goodness I had a paper bag handy, John. How disgustingly emetic! There is so much AI generated junk on the internet now... And 99% of it is garbage.
... and garbage recycling itself, hence the dead internet theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dead_Internet_theory).
My best guess is that this is Zielke's way of drawing attention to what might become a problem in the near future and while I could support that sentiment, let's say that the way he goes about it is perhaps not ideal.
By the way, if AI could lower the threshold for musical expression through the elimination of technical obstructions I'm all in favour of it. But I'm afraid that in reality the consequences may be more ... repetitive than creative.
Dear Friends of romantic music!
Sorry for this YouTube fake. But the cup of coffee should have immediately made anyone suspicious!
Okay, an irritation of a ,,special kind". But please guess who else wrote this Zeroth Symphony. (The composer was 23 years old, when he wrote it!)
No Brahms (Although Brahms was one of this composer's role models, he was in correspondence with him), no AI, no Zielke, no Thieriot. Listen to his 2nd Mvt.of 5
https://app.box.com/s/qie4jooma8pk2947yk547e2rlo5kitmx
This symphony is based on the "ideé fixe", as already used by Berlioz in his Symphonie Fantastique. The multiple division of the strings (tenfold divisi in the second movement) is also borrowed from Berlioz. The work was performed several times with great success by the composer himself. Note: The composer learned to conduct from none other than Hans von Bülow. The composer did not get it published due to his young age and withdrew it completely in 1900.
You'll find out for sure!
The video appears to be made private now, perhaps pending a new approach to the PR....
AI is a complete menace and is strangling creativity. There are a number of writers groups on FaceBook that seem to be populated with people who advocate using it to write their novels, something that I wholeheartedly disagree with (especially as I wrote 2 books without it and am writing a third!)
The other field that it's impacting on is identification of shells (molluscs - I'm a conchologist) and people are relying on it to identify things and in almost all cases, it's completely useless!
Sorry, rant over.
It will be interesting to see if this Brahms early symphony comes to anything - there is no mention of it in Jan Swafford's biography or any of my other sources.
Or in MacDonald's (rather better!) Brahms biography, either, iirc.
...or Avins's edition of his letters, or Musgrave's book on his music. Sigh...
Quote from: Hamburger on Monday 11 August 2025, 19:44But please guess who else wrote this Zeroth Symphony. (The composer was 23 years old, when he wrote it!)
Felix Woyrsch: Study Symphony in B flat minor (1884?)
Evidence:
https://soundcloud.com/harmo-nium/felix-woyrsch-symphonie-1884-b-minor-1st-mvt-virtual-performance
Not a fake, but Woyrsch's glorious tribute to his inspiration - Brahms.
Ah, this makes sense. Zielke has been preparing Woyrsch' 6th symphony for recording. This might mean this early symphony is to be in the upcoming cpo release as well.
Indeed. And you yourself wrote this back in August 2024:
QuoteI seem to remember that Walter Zielke also prepared the score of Woyrsch' 6th/7th symphony for the recording, so the fact that he's done work on the "0th/1st" may be significant.
Ah, forgot about that...
Still, weird way to present it. Interested to hear the rest, of course.
It'll be a disappointment now if there isn't a commercial recording...
I should have guessed out loud (though my guess was on Thieriot rather than Woyrsch) that this was a roundabout and somewhat wrong-headed (but not un-understandable) way of (kind of) "innocent-earing" (except the opposite...)
It's interesting that some regarded this to be created by generative AI because in a way, it is: just without the "A". Its pastiche-like character was evidently Woyrsch' intention, and it makes the rest of his musical development towards a far more restrained and severe, but still clearly Brahms-influenced style all the more interesting.
By the way, it isn't quite so easy (yet) to generate a full, authentic-sounding symphonic work using AI; I've really tried.
Quote from: Alan Howe on Monday 11 August 2025, 21:25Felix Woyrsch: Study Symphony in B flat minor (1884?)
Evidence:
https://soundcloud.com/harmo-nium/felix-woyrsch-symphonie-1884-b-minor-1st-mvt-virtual-performance
Not a fake, but Woyrsch's glorious tribute to his inspiration - Brahms.
Excellent sleuthing and well done, Alan, for identifying it so quickly.
Once I'd moved beyond Brahms' contemporaries, the only choices were Röntgen and Woyrsch. Just a matter of elimination - and a large dose of luck.
Nice sleuthing indeed. Turns out I'd downloaded this from SoundCloud late last year (which explains why it sounded familiar; duh!); the 2nd Mvt Andante was also available back then, but has apparently since been removed.
Edit: the 2nd Mvt is still on Soundcloud, but for some reason I missed it. Listen to it here (https://soundcloud.com/harmo-nium/felix-woyrsch-symphony-in-bb-minor-2nd-mvt-virtual-performance).
It's a dark time when one can mistake a real composition by a historical master with AI, because of misrepresentation...
My initial bet was on a more obscure composer; once Brahms' contemporaries were ruled out, it had to be one of his later imitators.
Woyrsh's Study Symphony may be his first attempt but, for all the deliberate imitation of Brahms, its first two movements are very much to my taste - more, I must admit, than any of his mature works. Like Alan, I do hope that a recording will be forthcoming soon.
Quote from: Hamburger on Monday 11 August 2025, 19:44Dear Friends of romantic music!
Sorry for this YouTube fake. But the cup of coffee should have immediately made anyone suspicious!
Okay, an irritation of a ,,special kind". But please guess who else wrote this Zeroth Symphony. (The composer was 23 years old, when he wrote it!)
No Brahms (Although Brahms was one of this composer's role models, he was in correspondence with him), no AI, no Zielke, no Thieriot. Listen to his 2nd Mvt.of 5
https://app.box.com/s/qie4jooma8pk2947yk547e2rlo5kitmx
This symphony is based on the "ideé fixe", as already used by Berlioz in his Symphonie Fantastique. The multiple division of the strings (tenfold divisi in the second movement) is also borrowed from Berlioz. The work was performed several times with great success by the composer himself. Note: The composer learned to conduct from none other than Hans von Bülow. The composer did not get it published due to his young age and withdrew it completely in 1900.
You'll find out for sure!
Dear @Hamburger, perhaps you could enlighten us whether a recording is forthcoming? From the Pfohl-Woyrsch-Gesellschaft I understood that "Symphonies 1 and 6" had been recorded for CPO, but it's been silent since...
I think we already know that Symphonies 1 & 6 will appear on cpo, but there's been no firm news about the Study Symphony.