Relatively Short Orchetral Works with A Lot of Thematic Material?

[monafam]

At some point, I subscribed to this notion that the longer a given, individual musical piece was (not exclusive to classical music), the better or complex (i.e. more musical ideas or thematic material present) it was.  As a result, I gravitated towards the Mahlers and Bruckners of the world (this is not an indictment of their works, which I still enjoy), and regarded only CD-filling individual symphonies worthwhile.

I realize now that longer in a musical sense does not always mean better or more complex.   

I was curious to know if there are shorter orchestral works (preferably symphonies, but I'm not limiting it to other works) that are just as complex with a lot of thematic material or musical ideas presented in a relatively short space?

I hope this makes sense, although if it brings up more questions, I'd be happy to read where it takes us!

[alberto]

The topic really brings up a lot of questions.
I we don't limit to forms like the Symphony or the Concerto, it will be frequent to have a lot of thematic material or musical ideas.
If we consider operatic orchestral piece, a good example seems to me the Prelude to "Meistersinger von Nurmberg".
Same with a suite, or a series or a rhapsody. Just one composer: Ma mére l'oye (suite), Valses Nobles et Sentimentales (series) , Rapsodie Espagnole (rhapsody). Another composer and a shorter piece: Espana by Chabrier.
Symphonic poems : Till Eulenspiegel, Don Juan (even with recurring themes).
In the Concerto comes to mind one example of cornucopia, of wealth (and waste, in the good meaning) of musical ideas: Gershwin Piano Concerto.
The above are just first thoughts, and regarding much sung composers (Chabrier not so sung).

[mbhaub]

When it comes to being direct, to the point, and getting a lot of material in, I think of Sibelius, especially in the later symphonies. They are miraculous works of compositional skill. He wastes no time and every single note seems to have a reason for being there. The same could be said of Webern, but having studied the 9 1/2 minute Symphonie op 21, I can't say I get it at all. I'm told by experts that it has a rigorous symphonic logic, buy alas it continues to elude my understanding.

Among more approachable  music, the three symphonies of Blomdahl certainly pack a lot of material in relatively short symphonies (20 - 30 min). But again, this isn't music everyone will enjoy. But one composer who wrote lots of short symphonies that are just wonderful is Rued Langaard. The shortest, no. 12 is barely 7 minutes. The longest, no. 1, is an hour with the others hovering around 20 minutes and worth every second of your time.

[eschiss1]

It seems to me you are asking a whole lot of different questions and I'm not sure whether they are meant to be the same or separately thought about- a work can have quite a few different thematic motives shot out in a very brief time without being in most usual senses especially complex (some potpourris...) . Complexity suggests a few things- hermetic things (relation between motives; polyphonic complexity...), though many (ok, not that many) composers have known the secret to using complexity at the service of musical argument instead of against it - but an abundance and exuberance of material that are not gathered together into threads sounds more like "complicated" than "complex" (and despite the similar root these are not the same word).

[monafam]

Thanks for the replies so far!   I know when I first posted this, I thought it might be confusing as I wasn't sure exactly what I meant either! 


That said, I do think that it's  the "complex" angle that I had in mind.  I like the idea of the "hermetic things (relation between motives; polyphonic complexity..."   I know that there are pieces of music that can do a great deal in a short span without it being "complicated" and there is no guarantee that a longer piece is more "complex."

[eschiss1]

It also has seemed to me - and this really is very subjective, I know it- that a piece can be thin for lack of thematic material, but can also be thin for a certain lack of 'point' - d'Indy's first two (I have heard but barely know the third, though I think this is true of a lot of music of his I've heard anyway...) string quartets stretch out a very minimum of thematic material with much ingenuity (of many kinds, not just the driest - making new and quite nice melodies out of the other ones, which itself requires a good ear and ingenuity) - but have met, I know, a mixed reception among those who know them- I love them, I have to admit (full of brio and depth in turns, etc., just generally very fine pieces) but others find the motto theme in all its iterations overwhelming (the Franck influence.) 

Some of the suggestions that came to my mind were actually a bit like that - some of Holmboe's 20th-century works (neither Romantic nor usually very modern) complex and communicative, brief orchestral works, like Monolith and the late Preludes for chamber orchestra. Along a very different avenue, Sibelius' middle-period tone poems (The Bard and Night Ride and Sunrise, for instance).  Probably better examples around (especially since I'm remembering a review of an early work of someone's about which it was specifically said something along the lines, more ideas in those 12 minutes than most composers pack in their whole careers- ok, that sounds just up the line of what you're asking for...- now if I could just connect that to a composer and piece, Bob and I would have relatives in common at least...)

Eric

[chill319]

Perhaps it is not appropriate to this board, but the neoclassic aesthetic of the 1920s and after influenced a number of tonally oriented composers to write symphonies that, while short, were melodically rich and neither dramatically nor musically simplistic. I'm thinking of symphonies by composers like Chavez, Honegger, Martinu, Tubin, Harris, and Bloch (in the 1950s).This was a particularly rich period for symphonies, and I'm sure members could extend this list to multiple composers from almost every European country.

[Alan Howe]

Draeseke 4.

[eschiss1]

... oh wait, you (monafam) said preferably symphonies- somehow I read that as its opposite, so everything since then has been confusing me no end...
hrm.  brief, complicated symphonies- Myaskovsky symphony 21 might qualify (18 minutes in the recording I have) (pretty well known though, at least here!) - I suspect Rontgen's C# minor symphony from 1930 does but haven't heard it often enough to say for absolutely sure - (of course I recommend Brian syms 12, 22 and 31 - not terribly Romantic though still very expressive and emotional- I think! - especially the brief funeral march of the 12th if taken at the right tempo, as on the recording you can download for free at havergalbrian.org (13 minutes), rather than the Naxos recording. Same problem afflicts the slow movt. of the 32nd, but anyway.)... -
hrm. maybe also Ivanovs' symphony no.1 in B-flat (1933) (about 13 minutes, one movement, complicated enough I think though I'll listen again to be sure- I like it but that's not the question!, recorded on a maybe now deleted Campion CD...) 
Eric

[vandermolen]

I agree with Miaskovsky Symphony no 21; also Havergal Brian Symphony 10 (there is a new recording), Samuel Barber Symphony No 1. Robin Orr Symphony.