Symphonies in Disguise?

[Ilja]

Just to be cheeky, it really depends on how one defines "symphony". The meaning of the word has changed over the years. And one might (again cheekily) argue that if, as a composer, I choose to call the piece of music I've written a "symphony" then that's what it is. That wouldn't, of course, work for a more clearly defined form - if, for example, I wrote a piece which I called "minuet" when it was manifestly a "waltz", that would be either foolish or bloody-minded!

Also, over the years, 'symphonies' have come to overlap what would otherwise have been termed 'serenades' or 'suites'. And even some serenades suites (Tchaikovsky's 2nd, to name one example) would more closely resemble other people's symphonies in scope, length, form, and subject matter. To make matters worse, some composers are quite vague about which epithet they wish to attach to their pieces. Klughard's Lenore is a good example.

[JimL]

I don't wish to be pedantic, but 4'33 is officially a piano piece. The 'pianist' is supposed to walk onto the platform, open the piano's lid and sit there, all part of the 'performance'.

Sorry to be doubly pedantic, but it isn't!

The score describes David Tudor's first performance of the piece as a piano piece, but Cage simply doesn't specify a particular instrument al all, it just states that the piece can be performed by any instrumentalist or or number of instrumentalists, and may be of any duration. Additionally, the note on the score also says that Tudor closed the lid to indicate the start of each movement, and only opened the lid again to indicate the movement had ended.

Perhaps someone could make an arrangement for full orchestra.  With full percussion, vibraphones and bass sarussaphone! > <

[doctorpresume]

Cage simply doesn't specify a particular instrument al all, it just states that the piece can be performed by any instrumentalist or or number of instrumentalists, and may be of any duration.

Perhaps someone could make an arrangement for full orchestra.  With full percussion, vibraphones and bass sarussaphone! > <

As the score already allows for that, I don't think it needs any arranging. Besides, it's already been done! 

[Alan Howe]

OK, let's return to the subject of this thread, please...

[eschiss1]

chill319 - well, 2 of the 3, at least one of Sorabji's works has an hommage to Alkan (unsurprisingly) - though again, it isn't a symphony (though the work that contains it is perhaps a symphony "in disguise" given its length- ca. 8 hours or so?.. - and variety - the symphonic etudes for piano in 3 books, if memory serves, will have to check.)

[minacciosa]

When Arnold Bax played his piano sonata in Eb to his friends, it was immediately suggested that the material was actually a symphony manqué, whereupon Bax set to work transforming it into his great Symphony No.1. The original piano sonata has been recorded by John McCabe.

[eschiss1]

well, except for the slow movement of course...

[minacciosa]

Right.

[kolaboy]

I'm sure some will not agree, but in my mind Tapiola is a symphony in all but name. And Kullervo, of course. Brings the old fellow to a nice symmetric "9", anyway.

[Alan Howe]

I've always thought of two John Adams works as symphonies in all but name: Harmonielehre and Naive and Sentimental Music.

Having just discovered Adams' fabulous Harmonielehre, I'm inclined to agree with you, Jim. What a piece!

[suffolkcoastal]

I've seen Scriabin's Poem of Ecstasy labelled as his 4th Symphony on a few occasions. With The Divine Poem already being his Symphony No 3, this would make some sense. There is also the case of Kajanus's Aino occasionally labelled a symphony, though it is clearly a symphonic poem, though Kajanus's Sinfonietta really is a fully fledged symphony.

[Hovite]

I'm sure some will not agree, but in my mind Tapiola is a symphony in all but name.

I certainly agree. It is a one movement symphony like No. 7.

[Hovite]

I've seen Scriabin's Poem of Ecstasy labelled as his 4th Symphony on a few occasions.

I have a boxed set of Symphonies 1 to 5, No. 5 being Prometheus: The Poem of Fire.

[Alan Howe]

I'm sure some will not agree, but in my mind Tapiola is a symphony in all but name. And Kullervo, of course. Brings the old fellow to a nice symmetric "9", anyway.

I might well agree. And what a piece - frightening, elemental, nature in the raw. If Sibelius had written only this, it would be sufficient to secure him a place in the musical pantheon...

[anssik]

I'm sure some will not agree, but in my mind Tapiola is a symphony in all but name. And Kullervo, of course. Brings the old fellow to a nice symmetric "9", anyway.

The four Lemminkäinen Legends are clearly a symphony; that together with Kullervo gives us 9 Sibelius symphonies; and if you count Tapiola as well (which is a symphony, if the seventh is), that would give us no less than 10 of them. Picking up Sibelius' favourite 20th century composer, Béla Bartók's Music for string, percussion and celesta is yet another 'symphony in all but name'.