Who was the most innovative of the 19th Century Unsungs?

[saxtromba]

First cyclical piano concerto?  Mendelssohn's 1st PC (1835) recalls material from the first movement at the end of the finale.  Schumann's concerto (1841-1846) uses the first movement motto theme as transitional material between the Intermezzo and finale, and actually quotes some material from the second movement in the coda of the finale, a reference that is little noted by analysts.   I'm not sure what material from the first movement in Rubinstein's 1st PC gets recycled in the finale - none that I can recall.  There are probably some other examples of the cyclic approach used prior to 1850 in PCs that escape me besides the Moscheles 6th and the examples I have already cited.

Hmm, yes; I should perhaps have been more explicit in my claim.  These examples (and others, such as the Kalkbrenner 1st PC) are pieces in which there are what might be called thematic reminiscences, so they are, in a sense, cyclical.  But in most of them the previous material appears so briefly, and often so subtly, that it's hard to say what the composer was thinking structurally (were these simply half conscious usages of earlier material, or were audience members expected to take away specific emotional connotations?).  The Rubinstein 3rd's third movement, on the other hand, makes a very dramatic point of recalling material from the first two movements and even reworking it slightly.

But the debate here is largely semantic, and simply points to the problem of even defining 'innovation.'  I suspect that many composers who are seen as derivative were actually reaching their ideas on their own (which, at a personal level, means that they were being quite innovative), but had the misfortune to do so under the shadow of others whose innovations were both larger in scale and earlier in appearance.

A general question stemming from thoughts about Rubinstein: in his third violin sonata (about 1878) he starts the first movement with brief quotations from the first two sonatas.  Pieces quoting from their own earlier movements wqere common by this time, but had anyone done this particular form of self quotation before?

[JimL]

The Mendelssohn has true reminiscences of both first movement themes, hardly a "half-conscious" usage of earlier material.  There are very specific emotional contexts in the way in which these reminiscences are used, and they aren't verbatim repetitions but actual reworkings of the material.  In the world premiere LP of Rubinstein's 3rd PC (Robert Preston, coupled with Kabalevsky 3 on Orion) the finale was heavily cut.  Nearly all of the references to the previous two movements were eliminated.  It actually showed how extraneous all of those cyclical quotations were to the structure of the movement and tightened things up considerably.

[jerfilm]

Another piece that employs cyclical themes is surely Moszkowski's Piano Concerto.  The coda becomes a restatement of the very opening of the concerto.

Another of my favorites.

Jerry

[saxtromba]

In the world premiere LP of Rubinstein's 3rd PC (Robert Preston, coupled with Kabalevsky 3 on Orion) the finale was heavily cut.  Nearly all of the references to the previous two movements were eliminated.  It actually showed how extraneous all of those cyclical quotations were to the structure of the movement and tightened things up considerably.

I'll just politely disagree, a disagreement I first felt (though of course with Preston rather than you) when I first bought the recording 35 years ago....   .  In any case, though, I'll listen to the Mendelssohn 1 with a fresh take, so thanks for that.

[JimL]

Another piece that employs cyclical themes is surely Moszkowski's Piano Concerto.  The coda becomes a restatement of the very opening of the concerto.

Ditto the Rheinberger.