Raiders of the Lost Composers

[Paul Barasi]

Let's spare a belated thought for those neglected victims of musical crime: unsung composers whose work was nicked by famous names.

Can we identify the owners of stolen musical material?

Which unsung composers have had their work stolen time and again?

Can we blow the great composers' sleight of hand in being deceptively derivative, by identifying which of their works make use of a tune, idea, or whatever that was sourced from an unsung composer?

Are we able to finger which major composers are repeat offenders with a whole string of similar offences needing to be taken into consideration?

Can we, maybe, identify whether the thief has simply lifted the stolen material or passed it off as original by altering it?

[semloh]

How about kicking off with some examples, Paul? I can't think of any myself, but suspect you have something in mind.....

[Gareth Vaughan]

Well, whoever wrote "I'm for ever blowing bubbles" stole it from Raff.

[Alan Howe]

Whoever wrote Tchaik 5 also stole the slow movement from JJR.  In fact JJR turns out to be the most plundered composer of all time...

[Balapoel]

Whoever wrote Tchaik 5 also stole the slow movement from JJR.  In fact JJR turns out to be the most plundered composer of all time...

Which Raff piece are you thinking of here?

[Alan Howe]

Raff 10, slow movement. One of the most obvious and extraordinary instances of musical grand larceny - and often remarked upon.

Evidence here:  http://www.raff.org/life/art/influenc.htm

[Mark Thomas]

Well, whoever wrote "I'm for ever blowing bubbles" stole it from Raff.

I'm sure it's obvious but, try as I may, Gareth, I can't figure this one out. Please explain.

Also, whilst Raff is in the "plunder-ee" spot, anyone familiar with BBC Radio Four's "Sailing By", used to introduce the old Shipping Forecast, will recognise the orchestration as a straight lift from the Barcarole in Raff's Italian Suite, plunderd by Ronald Binge.

[operanut2011]

Has anyone here noticed that the opening 6 notes of Rontgen's 5th Symphony sound very much like the 1st 6 notes of Raff's 4th? Was this intentional on Rontgen's part, or is my mind simply playing musical tricks on me?

[Alan Howe]

'Raiding' must mean more than mere imitation, or general influence, otherwise nobody's innocent. I take it we're talking here about intentional theft - no?

[Gareth Vaughan]

I'm sure it's obvious but, try as I may, Gareth, I can't figure this one out. Please explain.

I was being a bit facetious, but there is a phrase in the slow movement of the Fantasie-Sonata that reminds me strongly of the opening notes of the "bubbles" song.

[TerraEpon]

If we're going to get into that.....check out the slow movement of (Niels) Gade's Piano Sonata in e. It bares no small resemblance to the popular Bill Evans jazz tune, Waltz for Debbie.

[mbhaub]

John Williams tops them all. He is a very fine musician, writes great film scores, but let's face it - the early ones especially are highly derivative. The first Star Wars score owes an awful lot to Holst, Ravel, Elgar and more. Years ago there was a great, and very-much-missed, store in Tucson called Jeff's Classical Music Shop. On the wall he had a poster labeled The John Williams Lack of Originality Chart (or something like that) which listed the major themes from Williams' work up to that time (early 80's) and next to it, the composer and work from which the material was "derived". Lot of fun.

But seriously, I can't think of anything in the repertoire which meets this criteria. Although the opening theme of Franz Schmidt's 1st symphony sure bears a likeness to Richard Strauss' Don Juan. Not on purpose.

[LateRomantic75]

Speaking of Schmidt, I recall there being discussed a strong similarity between the cello solos in Schmidt's Fourth Symphony and a symphonic poem (?) by Hans von Bulow. I haven't heard the von Bulow work, though.

Also, the main theme of the jaunty final movement of Atterberg's Sixth bears more than a passing resemblance to the secondary theme from The March to the Scaffold from Berlioz's Symphonie fantastique.

[Jimfin]

One of the movements of Schmidt's 2nd has a theme that's straight out of Sullivan's 'The Martyr of Antioch' (Marguerite's first solo)

[LateRomantic75]

Oh, Schmidt! You naughty boy!