Unicorn-Kanchana (Raff 5 'Lenore')

[Mark Thomas]

There's no doubt about it in my view, Raff benefits from a certain briskness and there's plenty of contemporary evidence  attesting to that being the way his music was played in the 19th century. His great friend the conductor Hans von Bülow said "with Raff everything goes quickly". Overall, amongst commercial recordings I think that Järvi comes closest to Raff's intentions for Lenore but there's a definite lack of flexibility when he employs faster tempi which does mean that, to take an obvious example, the very opening of the piece is taken too fast, with the result that it sounds, as Alan writes, "smudged". He also misjudges the "apotheosis" at end of the finale and rather throws it away.

Are there any non-commercial recordings/performances that have done Symphony No. 5 some justice?

There's a 2022 performance on YouTube by the Zentralschweizer Jugendsinfonieorchester under Jonas Bürgin which, although it's certainly not without its deficiencies, gets the tempi pretty much right throughout. It certainly conveys the feeling of a fevered dream, which is the basis of the original Lenore ballad from which Raff took his inspiration, whilst remaining thoroughly musical and often exciting throughout.

[Alan Howe]

Yes, the performance Mark refers to seems to be positioned somewhere between Jarvi and Stadlmair - pretty well ideal, I'd say. In fact, if pushed, I'd point to this performance as the one to listen to - for conception if not for execution (this is, after all, a Youth Orchestra).

We just need a few more enlightened modern commercial recordings...

[semloh]

These exchanges are so informative - thank you. My rahter clicky Herrmann LP, and its Nonesuch CD version, have been long cherished, and I haven't taken time to explore the other performances. I'll start by listening to the Zentralschweizer Jugendsinfonieorchester on YT - thank you for the link and the appraisal.
Can anyone explain the "Op.101" title?

[John Boyer]

Can anyone explain the "Op.101" title?

The Tudor recording of Lenore is coupled with the First Suite, Op. 101. Whoever did the YouTube post probably copied the opus number incorrectly from that Tudor release.

[Mark Thomas]

Quality sleuthing, John.

[semloh]

Yes, thanks John.

[Alan Howe]

Listening again to the performance on YouTube by the Zentralschweizer Jugendsinfonieorchester
under Jonas Bürgin which comes in at around 44 minutes - I'd say it was pretty well ideal. Here's the link again for reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NZkQeTqveY

[Alan Howe]

I note that Dave Hurwitz, in discussing a CD of Cyril Scott PCs conducted by Bernard Herrmann, reveals that Herrmann was known for his slow and dreary conducting of music by composers other than himself. Perhaps it was unfortunate that he was the conductor chosen for the first recording....

[eschiss1]

Well, only Yondani Butt seems to have been slower than Herrmann in Raff's Lenore in a comparison of 7 recordings listed at allmusic.com (though some may take repeats and some not, so duration by itself isn't enough, I know) so there may be something to that. (It doesn't please me to agree with the person quoted, but what can you do.)
There's much more competition in Holst's Planets suite (Herrmann's total timing a bit under 57 minutes; many recordings are closer to 45) and in Satie's orchestrated Gymnopédies, but might be true there too, hrm.

[Mark Thomas]

Yes, it becomes more and more apparent that that pioneering recording which first introduced many of us (and certainly me) to Raff was, at best, a very individual take on Lenore. On the other hand, it also demonstrates the strength of the music that it not only survived Herrmann's slow tempi but inspired enthusiasm to hear more of Raff's works. Interestingly, Herrmann's 1949 radio broadcast performance for CBS was over 8 minutes quicker.

[terry martyn]

Alan talks about Herrmann being an unfortunate choice,but the recording wouldn't have happened,would it,if it had not been for his involvement. For,this, we are greatly in his debt.

Whoever came up with the cover frontispiece idea deserves a medal.   I bought it for that reason itself!

[John Boyer]

I listened to the Herrmann again today for the first time in ages and was surprised at how well it holds up.  It's reputation for being slow is akin to the reputation of the Gould/Bernstein Brahms 1st Concerto.  Legend had it that Gould's allegedly bizarre interpretation dragged the worked interminably, that it lasted more than an hour, but when Sony finally released it, we learned it clocked in at 53:21 -- one minute faster than Bernstein's later recording with Zimerman.

I now realize that Herrmann falls within the normal performance range for the symphony, just on the low end of that normal scale.  His is the slowest, of course, but someone had to be the slowest.  The point is he's not absurdly slow, just the slowest of the available recordings.  It's hardly an idiosyncratic take on the music at all.  Rather, it's Jarvi, with his frantic tempos, who falls far outside the norm.  Jarvi is the fastest, but he's abnormally fast -- indeed, absurdly so. 

It no surprise that back in the 70s we came away from Herrmann's performance liking the symphony and wanting to hear more Raff.  Yes, Herrmann could have pushed it along a bit more (particularly in the Andante, which he plays more like an adagio), but we were still all impressed.  I can't imagine someone whose first encounter with Raff is Jarvi's Fifth wanting to explore more.  Herrmann is good, but could use a bit more drive.  Jarvi is a disaster -- it needs a strong dose of valium.  It's the one recording of the 5th that I tell people to avoid.

Benny, you never sounded so good.

[Ilja]

I have to disagree here. After all, someone has to be the fastest, and Järvi clocks in at just under 40 minutes against Bürgin at almost 42:42 when we take out the applause and shorten the intervals between the movements to normal length. That's not a huge difference. Far from thinking it a disaster, I really enjoy Raff's take, even though I see the issues Mark and Alan refer to and, also honestly prefer the Bürgin.

Perhaps it's because I didn't get to Raff via Herrmann, but through Schneider on Marco Polo and later, Stadlmair. On the basis of those I never considered Lenore among the best of Raff's symphonic output. Hearing the Herrmann later on I found it lethally dreary - there's little fever left in the dream. As Mark indicated, it's probably wise to err on the side of speed in Raff and although Järvi clearly does err, the end product is still exciting. Also, I appreciate performers taking risks once a decent body of performances is established; it shows a piece's possibilities. And in that way, I think both Herrmann and Järvi have done good work, even if I vastly prefer the latter over the former.

[Mark Thomas]

Having been weaned on Lenore through Herrmann's pioneering recording, it took me some time to adjust to the moderately more swift Stadlmair, and even more to Järvi's tempi, but I do believe that they're much nearer to Raff's intentions than is Herrmann's. Sure, Järvi is just too fast in the opening bars, but for the bulk of the first movement, and the other three, his pacing is convincing. I still enjoy listening to Herrmann and we're lucky to have such a spread of interpretations. FWIW, if you can track down a recording of a performance by the Orchester der Zürcher Hochschule der Künste under Marc Kissóczy then it's well worth a listen. He takes the first movement only slightly slower than Järvi, but retains all its feverish excitement and the other three movements pretty much match Järvi's interpretation - the finale is particularly effective. Unfortunately, I've forgotten the recording provenance, otherwise I'd post it here.

[raffite33]

While not disagreeing with anything said, I wonder if projecting a mood of feverish excitement can be achieved as much by emphasis, phrasing & tonal expression as by sheer speed.  Bernard Herrmann was probably best known for his Hitchcock scores, so, as a conductor, I'd imagine he was pretty good at setting a mood.