Unicorn-Kanchana (Raff 5 'Lenore')

[Alan Howe]

I can't comment on Herrmann except to repeat what Dave Hurwitz has said about his conducting style - which seems to be borne out by his commercial recording when compared to the earlier CBS radio broadcast.
What is undeniable is that Järvi's orchestra cannot articulate clearly the start of the first movement at the tempo chosen; thereafter, however, Järvi perfectly captures the nervous energy of a work which isn't supposed to move like Brahms, let alone Wagner.

[Ilja]

While not disagreeing with anything said, I wonder if projecting a mood of feverish excitement can be achieved as much by emphasis, phrasing & tonal expression as by sheer speed.  Bernard Herrmann was probably best known for his Hitchcock scores, so, as a conductor, I'd imagine he was pretty good at setting a mood.

A very good point. I think especially expression can make a big difference; simultaneously, there is a limit to what you can achieve with it; listen to Celibidache's performance of Dvorak's 9th (for which I reserve a particularly virulent loathing) to get that point. Even if you like that approach, you'll have to admit that it loses a lot of the work's urgency.

[John Boyer]

Raffite33 is correct that feverish dreams need not be expressed only through sheer speed, if at all.  From whence this association of speed with dreams and fevers?  By that standard, Death and Transfiguration and the Symphonie Fantastique should both be played as fast as possible, 15 minutes for the Strauss and 30 for the Berlioz.

I reject, too, the idea that Raff should always be played fast.  Yes, it can be very effective.  Jarvi's Second works.  It's not my favorite, but it's effective.  Ponti's Piano Concerto is the only one I can endure; the others are painfully slow. But speed is not a cure all.  I am reminded of how Beethoven sounds when we take his tempo markings seriously.  I heard a 55-minute Ninth Symphony that was revelatory.  It made you realize that Beethoven was a man of the 18th century, not some proto-Bruckner.  I heard the Seventh subjected to the same treatment (the allegretto taken at march tempo) and it was unbearable.  Each work must be approached individually.

Finally, regarding all this "feverish dream" business, there is no fever and there is no dream.  In Burger's poem, Lenore awakes to the reality of William's absence and death.  Lenore does not imagine the events of the story, she lives them.  William literally returns from the dead and drags Lenore with him to the grave.  The events are no more described as a dream or a flight of fancy than are the appearance of the ghost of Hamlet's father, the voyage of the Pequod, or Jekyll's transformation into Hyde.  It's a literal ghost story.  The drug-induced delirium of the Symphonie Fantastique it is not.

[Mark Thomas]

While not disagreeing with anything said, I wonder if projecting a mood of feverish excitement can be achieved as much by emphasis, phrasing & tonal expression as by sheer speed.

A very good point, but comparing Herrmann's rendition with Kissóczy's in particular just doesn't bear it out.

[Alan Howe]

Speaking personally, I think the problem goes back to Bernard Herrmann; it's as if the base line for conducting Beethoven was late Klemperer (circa 1970).

[Ilja]

Funny, I honestly can't stand Ponti's Raff concerto (and that without casting shade on Ponti's importance for unearthing the romantic piano concerto repertoire). But then, I didn't hear it until fairly late (after the Antonioli, for certain); my current favorite is without question Tra Nguyen's.

Perhaps this whole discussion is also a good illustration in the formative effect of first impressions. Usually when I hear a new recording of a work I know very well from a first recording, I have real problem untangling that experience from the initial expectations formed by my memory. It takes time and, sometimes, a re-orientation on the music itself.

[Alan Howe]

first impressions

I can't remember my first experience of Raff 5, but it certainly wasn't Herrmann. I think it was Stadlmair. I added Herrmann later because I thought it was an important historical document.

[terry martyn]

Ponti's recording  of the Piano Concerto was not the first that I heard, but it is also my favourite. But that is because I am a dyed-in-the-wool Ponti fan.  He invariably brings things to life for me.

I bought the Herrmann because I was fascinated by the superlative cover ,and I read the laudatory Gramaphone review later.

But Herrmann hooked  me and I treasure his performance to this day.

[raffite33]

As we generally seem to be addressing the (excessive) speed in the first movement, and, with Jarvi, the very beginning, I have ask whether someone knows some programmatic detail that I don't.  Just going by the track listings on the CDs I have, "Part One" (which contains the first two movements) is titled "Liebesgluck."  That is variously translated as "Love's Bliss," "Love's Happiness," or "Joy of Love."  The Chandos notes indicate that there are bits in the allegro that "hint at future events," but I should think that the very beginning of the movement should be giddy, intoxicating, transcendentally serene, or something like that.

[Alan Howe]

The problem is Järvi, but he's also the solution. It was always well-known in Chandos circles that he is a speedy conductor and this brings dangers as well as excitement. To my mind the opening of Raff 5 should have been re-made and a rock-steady tempo properly established with clarity of articulation in both strings and woodwind, but beyond that I have nothing but praise for his conception of the work.

[Mark Thomas]

regarding all this "feverish dream" business, there is no fever and there is no dream.

In an 1874 letter about the Symphony to the critic Martin Röder, Raff wrote: "In this solitude, evil forebodings take possession of her. She falls into a fever, in which her hallucinations represent to her the return of her lover. But these hallucinations prepare, in reality, only her own death". It's Lenore's hallucinogenic imagining of "Love's Happiness" which Raff depicts in the first movement.

[Alan Howe]

Yes - and this is exactly what we can hear in Järvi's interpretation.

[John Boyer]

In an 1874 letter about the Symphony to the critic Martin Röder, Raff wrote...

Oh, good grief, so even Raff got it wrong?  I am reminded of Ambroise Thomas's operatic treatment of Hamlet, where Hamlet triumphs and is proclaimed King of Denmark in the final scene.

Is it too much to ask to get faithful adaptations of our works from these composer types?  Who do these clowns think they are? cry Burger and the Bard from the great beyond!

[Ilja]

It's important to distinguish between an inspirational source and the work that source inspired. It's less a matter of "getting it wrong" than moulding something into new forms. The idea that there exists a moral obligation to remain completely faithful to an original creative work is very much a modern (i.e., post-1945) consensus.

[Alan Howe]

All musical renderings of original non-musical sources are almost by definition bound to involve interpretation, imagination, addition, maybe even distortion...