Unsung Composers

Chandos have confirmed that they are planning to record Raff's symphonies with Neeme Järvi:

"We are talking to Neeme Järvi about Raff symphonies right now!" writes Ralph Couzens on the Chandos Forum.

I understand that the orchestra will be the Suisse Romande in Geneva which Järvi is due to take over in the New Year.

I won't be at all offended if folk want to call me a curmudgeonly old git! Will be the world be a better place if Chandos devote attention to Raff? Probably sheer heresy to say so on this site - but we're fortunate to have the Stadlmier set of symphonies on Tudor, and that to my mind is just about the last word on Raff (with the possible exception of Raff 6).

If Ralph Couzens (and bless the man for all he's given us) took a quick glance through this site he would very quickly assemble a list of things to record that would probably lead him to selling more records than a set of Raff symphonies to compete with an easily available glorious one. Just an opinion, and I've no wish to start a dog-fight.

Peter

Quote from: petershott@btinternet.com on Wednesday 24 November 2010, 18:05
I won't be at all offended if folk want to call me a curmudgeonly old git! Will be the world be a better place if Chandos devote attention to Raff? Probably sheer heresy to say so on this site - but we're fortunate to have the Stadlmier set of symphonies on Tudor, and that to my mind is just about the last word on Raff (with the possible exception of Raff 6).

Well, I'm sure nobody is going to malign you, but I will disagree with you! In my view, Stadlmair's set could be improved upon thus:
1. There are a few ruinously fast tempi, particularly in certain slow movements.
2. The playing and recording are good, but not outstanding. The orchestra is efficient, but hardly glamorous, and the sound, to my ears at least, doesn't really have enough space round it. Comparison with, say, d'Avalos on ASV in No.3 reveals what a world-class orchestra and recording can sound like in this music.
3. Major works need multiple recordings in order to raise their profile. As Tudor improved upon the Marco Polo set (although I retain much affection for those recordings), so Chandos should improve upon the Tudor set. And Järvi senior has a very special way with unsung music, as we know.

So that's my take on the news. And I haven't called anyone curmudgeonly!

OK, Alan, I concede all your points 1-3, admit defeat and withdraw my remarks. And the last sentence reveals a gentleman!

When I read your initial posting, my first reaction was slight dismay thinking of all the other things that Jarvi and Chandos could offer - but knowing in the back of my mind that the bank balance will suffer given the certain acquistion of more Raff. Yes, the Tudor set isn't perfect - but weren't we all so grateful when those recordings emerged? They constituted a terrific improvement on what Raff we had at the time.

And every time I see an announcement of what Jarvi might be recording, I recall a real whoop of joy with which I let rip in the good old days (must have been about 10 years ago) when I read an announcement by DG that Jarvi was to put on disc a complete set of the Myaskovsky symphonies - nothing happened of course apart from an issue of Myaskovsky 6. Would not that have been a thing! Thus every time I see a new Jarvi project (whether it is that eccentric Bruckner recording or his ill-fated Tchaikovsky) I always feel dismayed that it is not Myaskovsky! Just can't help it!

Peter

I take all your points, Peter. I was as grateful as anyone when the Tudor series started coming out and duly collected the lot. But with familiarity has come a certain frustration that, good as they undoubtedly are, the Tudor recordings could have been even better.

Of course, when it comes to recording projects, one might wish for a 'both... and' situation, rather than 'either...or'. And, I agree, a Myaskovsky series under Järvi would have been great - and a lot more expensive than the Svetlanov box!

What wonderful news to read after a long and not particularly successful day! I completely understand your misgivings Peter, but I think that Alan has made the case for another cycle with Chandos and Järvi more eloquently than I could. Personally, I rate the Stadlmair performances more highly than he does on the whole, but there is no denying that there is always room for more high quality interpretations, especially when they would come form such a high profile combination of label and conductor.

The only point I'd add to Alan's is maybe a little controversial: of all the unsung composers we discuss here, over the years Raff has become the nearest to making the breakthrough into the mainstream. There are well over 40 CDs of his music available now and over the last few years his compositions have even started to get programmed - not at the Gewandhaus or Concetgebuow maybe, but at least the music can be heard live from time to time. Raff therefore acts to some degree as a standard bearer for other unsungs. In that respect, the prospect of Raff on Chandos is a major milestone for all unsungs.

Quote from: Mark Thomas on Wednesday 24 November 2010, 22:17
The only point I'd add to Alan's is maybe a little controversial: of all the unsung composers we discuss here, over the years Raff has become the nearest to making the breakthrough into the mainstream.

And quite rightly so. Raff is one of the truly great composers among the unsungs.

I must agree with Mark and Alan. Raff's fortunes have come a long way since the thrilling emergence of Bernard Herrmann's 5th Symphony on Unicorn, back in LP days - and deservedly so. Consequently, it's no bad thing to have a few different cycles of his symphonies (look how many there are of Mahler's and he was relatively unsung at one time). The standards of production which we have come to expect from Chandos suggest there may be revelations in store if Jarvi really gets to grips with Raff's music.

I would welcome another set of Raff. The Tudors are generally good, exciting readings, the sound is perfectly good, and so is the playing. But for me the conductor ruined 5. Too fast, especially the first movement.

I would hope one thing Chandos will do is make SACD versions at the very least. My biggest worry is Jarvi. Has he ever done any Raff? Has he ever looked at a score? When he's on, he's great. Doing the Russian repertoire (Balakirev, Rimsky-Korsakov, Rachmaninoff, Borodin) I find his music making compelling and thrilling. Not always: his Tchaikovsky symphonies for Bis turned out as dreadful as Abbado with Chicago. His Glazunov set on Orfeo sounded like a rush job. More troubling is his German repertoire. His Mahler is pretty weird and can be dismissed at once. His 8th is awful, the 6th not far behind. His new 7th, on Chandos, is one of the worst. It even made Masur's reading look pretty good. His Brahms set (Chandos again) is pretty poor, too. One of the worst ever, probably. His Schmidt cycle, well played as it is, shows a lack of empathy with the composer: fast, rushed readings that are easily outclassed by others who found more profound meaning in the scores. (Ok, the 2nd with Chicago is stupendous and not likely to ever be outdone.) It may be rather superficial to judge his entire output from a small part of his recorded legacy, but he doesn't seem to have the right temperment for the German repertoire. So why would anyone think his Raff would be any better? I can only hope it is. In the meanwhile, Chandos should get him to lay down the Gliere 3rd. He gave a blistering account in Philadelphia several years ago. But if Chandos wants to commit, who am I to suggest otherwise. They have a great label with a huge number of succesful disks and few duds. So bring it on, more Raff is always a good thing.

Quote from: mbhaub on Thursday 25 November 2010, 03:17
My biggest worry is Jarvi. Has he ever done any Raff?

I doubt it. However, in the modern era at least, who has? Toscanini did, Herrmann did (he was performing Raff 60 years ago), but there is simply no modern performing tradition. So, as far as Järvi recording Raff is concerned, I say: bring it on! Yes, Järvi can be inconsistent, but he may be brilliant in Raff. Let's hope so!

Quote from: mbhaub on Thursday 25 November 2010, 03:17
My biggest worry is Jarvi. 

Järvi may be a bit uneven, but I don't think one can dismiss his recordings of non-nationalist music. For instance, I think that Järvis recordings of Berwald and Stenhammar are more successful than his Alfvén, though the last one is the most obvious "nationalist" among those three. And when he is at his best, he is in my opinion absolutely brilliant! So, let us all hope that he will be brilliant when dealing with mr Raff!  :)

Didn't know Toscanini conducted Raff. (Martucci yes, lots of Martucci, but not Raff.)

I also think multiple recordings are helpful in distributing unsung music to others - especially with a conductor as well known as Järvi and labels as well known as Chandos.

Good point, Jonathan. The combination of Järvi and Chandos may well do wonders for Raff's profile.

I'd be prepared for some disparaging "establishment" reviews, though. Old prejuduces, even when inherited and founded in ignorance, die hard.

I think a lot (if not everything) depends on the repertoire choice and quality of the first disc. If it's one of Raff's best works in a dazzling performance, there's every chance. If not, well...

Something occurred to me after reading more: Jarvi tends to perform music in concert before committing to disk. Maybe to spend more time with the music, to get it "right". So there's a nice prospect: Raff live with a major conductor and a major orchestra. I can hope that we would do some as a guest conductor. Can you imagine Jarvi doing Lenore in Chicago? Or Im Walde in New York? One can always dream...

I'm dreaming...of the cost of the plane ticket!  ;)

Ah, and Järvi is chief conductor of the Residentie Orchestra here in The Hague... I'll keep a sharp eye on next year's programme...

Now that'd be fantastic! At least an invasion by Raff fans would be more peaceful than one by football fans!

Järvi did Chadwick's symphonies 2 & 3 for Chandos, and as far as I'm concerned, that was a serious winner of a disc.  If you use that as an indicator of what might be coming with the Raff recordings, there may be serious cause to be optimistic here!

I agree that Jarvi is great in Chadwick. His Tam O'Shanter is superbly nuanced while remaining structurally articulate. He does especially well, I think, with composers who flourished in the 1930s and '40s -- Prokofiev, Barber, Tubin, Still ...

Still what?

Oooh Jim!! William Grant Still (1895-1978), a notable African-American composer. Jarvi (on Chandos) recorded his first two symphonies (1930 and 1937) - and they are most compelling pieces.

Way off thread, I know, but for me, Jarvi is assured of his place in heaven for his early BIS recordings of all the Tubin symphonies. I hadn't encountered Tubin before those recordings, and I've treasured them since.

Peter

Composer of the Afro-American Symphony.  You bit my hook! ;D

Not to be confused (or confusable, stylistically, though WG Still's music is diverse!) with Robert Still (1910-1971) some of whose symphonies were recorded on Lyrita ;)

I guess I might be in the minority here but I am kind of excited that Järvi might be doing a Raff cycle. I own several recordings that Järvi has conducted and I enjoy them all. He may be considered as inconsistent but in what I own I have not found that to be the case. His interpretations are usally vibrant and exciting. I think we should hope for the best until we have been shown otherwise. To have Raff recordings coming forth at all is next to a miracle. If Järvi recording the symphonies will give more exposure to Raff than I am all for it.

Kevin

Järvi's recordings of the complete Symphonies of Glazunov and Berwald should in itself put him on the wall of fame!!!!!!!

...and his Taneyev 4 is a classic!

I'd say the same myself of his Stenhammar 2, Prokofiev Fiery Angel, some of his Tubin symphonies, among other recordings. No argument there...

Personally, I think Jarvi is still tops in Sibelius, Prokofieff, and Rimsky-Korsakov, despite a less than top-rate Scheherazade. And of course he did Tubin well and his recording of the Brahms g minor quartet as arranged by Schoenberg is thrilling, electrifying, stupendous and more.

This is the latest news from Ralph Couzens:

<<Chandos will start a series of Raff with Neeme Jarvi next year. Symphonies will be at the heart of the series.>>

This is tremendous news, Alan. What a tonic!

Excellent news!

How splendid that Raff's reputation has at last grown to the extent that we will shortly be in the position of being able to contemplate not two but THREE complete cycles of his symphonies. This is surely something of an achievement among "unsungs". If his music were only to appear in mainstream concerts from time to time we might feel justified in describing him as "no longer unsung". Roll on that day!

First Rufinatscha, now Raff - surely they can't also be contemplating a Rubinstein cycle!!!  :o

Well, Rubinstein's symphonies certainly need to be issued in better recordings than are available at present, but I've no news on that front  :(

... someone funnier than I am could probably come up with a top ten list (Letterman-style, not in seriousness) of R-name composers whose symphony cycles the Raff-and-Rufinatscha astrological conjunction really point to, rather than Rubinstein.  Alas, you are saved from my weak attempt at same ;)

Raff,Jarvi & the Chandos sound seems like a pretty good combination to me. A conductor with a high profile like Jarvi could do allot for Raff. I don't think we should look this gift horse in the mouth myself. Hopefully my favourite Raff symphony, the Fourth, will be among the first to be released!!!!
As to Rubinstein. The prospect of  a Chandos recording of Rubinstein's 'Ocean Symphony' is rather alluring. Although I gather from postings here that it's not by any means one of Anton's best.

Actually, it probably is Anton's best, and there's the problem. Rubinstein just wasn't a profoundly talented symphonist.

Is that a fact?

I think it is a fact. However, far be it from me to object to others' enjoyment of him!

well, he wouldn't be the only composer who perhaps wrote his best music in other genres!

That's quite true. His piano concertos I enjoy very much indeed. And there's lot of solo piano music that I find quite enjoyable. Even Der Demon has its moments. In the case of the Ocean, I think a good case could be made that it is his best symphony -- at least in the original four movement version. Adding the extras was not such a good idea. That Rubinstein wasn't a top-notch symphony composer is no surprise. Who in that generation honestly was? I must also confess a certain liking to the 3rd symphony...

Please try his(Rubinstein) Symphony no 5 before writing him off.... I do realise he has written a lot of rambling music!!

Quote from: FBerwald on Wednesday 20 April 2011, 19:58
I do realise he has written a lot of rambling music!!

Did he?

I wouldn't right Rubinstein off - his symphonies could do withe some first-class recordings. Nevertheless, a fair assessment does not reveal him as a particularly strong symphonist overall. With Rubinstein, more is definitely less...

How to react on all those opinions about Rubinstein? As I've said before, I'm not a musicologist, but just a listener. A critical listener who has heard a lot of new, unsung and wonderful music over the past years, thanks to our Forum. Anton Rubinstein is still my number one favourite. I love his piano music, symphonies, concerto's and chamber music. So much of his music still grabs me, no matter how often I listen to it. Of course, like almost all other composers he has written some less convincing music, but that has never changed my opinion. I simply love Rubinstein like no other unsung composer. You can imagine how much I would like to see his symphonies in new and better performances (including The Ocean in 7 movements) than those old MP/Naxos releases.

Raff is my number two. Maybe I have a strange taste, because his An das Vaterland is my favourite symphony (those wonderful melodies), although I think that he has shown more craftmanship in later symphonies, like the fascinating 5th. 
I am very pleased with the Stadlmaier versions. However, Alan has given some good arguments why those performances could be improved, so that makes a new release of the series by Chandos interesting. But I'm not sure if I will put the new recordings on my priority wantlist, because Stadlmaier isn't that bad at all to my ears. Important is that the Chandos releases can contribute to more awareness of Raff's music by the classical music listeners and hopefully lead to more broadcasts.

... are any of us here musicologists? .. *confused*

We seem to have drifted on to Rubinstein about whom I would say, his ego far outstripped his talent as far as his compositional skills were concerned.  Try his Fantasia for piano and orchestra or his Caprice for the same, YUK!

Giles, you're going to run into a lot of resistance on that Fantasy, if it's the one in C you're talking about.  It's a great work.

The Eroica Fantasia? I like that piece enough I DLed it from eMusic at least.

No, I think he's talking about the Fantasie for Piano and Orchestra in C Major, Op. 84.  A grand work in 4 movements, which shows Rubinstein was no slouch when it came to Lisztian thematic transformation.

My general feeling is that Rubinstein was far too talented for his own good: most of his compositions seem to have been mainly first thoughts that sometimes could have used second ones. But then, Rubinstein was a busy man, which makes his enormous output even more incredible. However, you need not only a talented composer but also a disciplined one to make a truly satisfying creation: Saint-Saëns and Tchaikovsky are cases in point. To me, much of Rubinstein is hit-and-miss, although there is a lot of great music there - and even not-so-great music which I still love, such as the delightful A flat Konzerstück.

Excerpts from a couple of recent interviews with Neeme Järvi...

<<and I like to start to record now a little bit of Swiss music [probably with the Orchestre de la Suisse Romande, where he has recently taken up the post as artistic and musical director]...You know Raff was in the middle of all these good composers, and wrote all this very good music, but he's been somewhat forgotten now; you have Mendelssohn, Schubert, Schumann and you had Raff, he was there also; so beautiful, a highly professional musician.>>

<<Joseph Joachim Raff, par exemple. Ses symphonies sont très belles, particulièrement la 5e.>>
[Joseph Joachim Raff, for example. His symphonies are very beautiful, particularly the 5th.]

If I had a hat with me, I'd be throwing it in the air!

...and if it were out, I'd be over it. The moon, that is  ;)

I only wonder why on earth Chandos got to the Suisse Romande, which is no good orchestra anymore since ages!
And why Järvi goes to Geneva, that is another mystery, could't he find a better ensemble?
I think the TUdor CD set is great; about tempi one can discuss for ever.
Greetings from Switzerland
Adriano
Conductor/Composer

I understood that the Suisse Romande have become a greatly improved orchestra in the last few years. Certainly their reviews seem to bear this out.

The Suisse Romande Orchestra is unrecognisable as the same band from previous decades. The proof? Try any of Janowski's ongoing Bruckner cycle on Pentatone...

Quote from: Alan Howe on Sunday 04 September 2011, 09:46
The Suisse Romande Orchestra is unrecognisable as the same band from previous decades.

That's probably true, but boy those old recordings on Decca with Ansermet are something special. The winds had such character unlike the homogenous sounds we hear today. You don't hear brass playing like that anymore. So what if some of the tuning was suspect? The music they recorded just sounded so right. The Debussy, Ravel, Prokofieff -- just superb. The Brahms symphony cycle has been a top-rated one for me for 40+ years. The Stravinsky recordings are great, too. Recently Brilliant released the Tchaikovsky ballets with Ansermet and a Pathetique included. Great stuff! Their 70's recording of Ma Vlast on RCA is sadly overlooked. Like all orchestras, it's changed over the decades, but they might be one of the few central European orchestras that have maintained a unique sound, and would be an ideal choice for Raff...and a few other neglected composers.

It would be hard to deny that the heyday of the Suisse Romande was under Ansermet, c. 1955-65, just in time to capitalize on stereo LPs and make the most of their strong string playing and crisply defined brass section. I have very few of their subsequent recordings, and they seemed to flounder a bit in the 80s and 90s....

I personally never really enjoyed the SRO's playing, finding it often scrappy and out of tune in its heyday under Ansermet. These days it is no doubt less characterful, but unanimity and good tuning have certainly been established under Janowski's guiding hand. The band should be ideal for Raff as their string sound is still fairly slimline, so the composer's gorgeous scoring shouldn't get lost in any sort of sonic mush.

Hmm... well you may be right, Alan. Those 'Ace of Diamonds' LPs of the 60s were what I had in mind... maybe my memory is playing tricks but I don't recall them sounding out of tune. As far as Raff symphonies goes, I wonder what you make of the classic LPO/Herrmann recording of Lenore - my first encounter with Raff. Do you think it rates well compared to contemporary performances?

Perhaps, with regard to the SRO, I should have said 'sour-toned' (I was thinking of the woodwind) - but others might have found the orchestra of that period 'characterful'. I certainly don't think it was a band notable for its precision in those days.

As for Herrmann's Lenore, it still sounds magnificent to me, although my betting is that modern performances may up the tempi a bit. It'll be interesting to see what Järvi (sometimes a bit of a speed merchant) makes of it.

Quote from: semloh on Friday 09 September 2011, 11:59
Hmm... well you may be right, Alan. Those 'Ace of Diamonds' LPs of the 60s were what I had in mind... maybe my memory is playing tricks but I don't recall them sounding out of tune. As far as Raff symphonies goes, I wonder what you make of the classic LPO/Herrmann recording of Lenore - my first encounter with Raff. Do you think it rates well compared to contemporary performances?

Just my opinion, but the Herrmann is still, after 40 years and several other recordings, the one to beat. Maybe it's just that it was the one we all got to know first, but it still is thrilling and marvelously played by the orchestra.

As with so many of us I'm sure, even almost forty years after I first heard it, Herrmann's Lenore remains the benchmark against which I judge all other Raff's symphonic recordings. It remains my favourite reading of the Fifth.

Thank you for those opinions of the Herrmann Lenore... It was the first, and for many years only, Raff I had heard, so I treasure the LP, and it's safely digitized. I assume the version on the Nonesuch label is the same recording, issued primarily for the US market?

Quote from: semloh on Monday 12 September 2011, 08:11
I assume the version on the Nonesuch label is the same recording, issued primarily for the US market?

It's on Unicorn-Kanchana - it's the same recording.

A straw in the wind: tomorrow and on Thursday Neeme Järvi and L'orchestre de la Suisse Romande are playing Raff's Concert Overture op.123 in Geneva. Presumably it'll eventually feature as a filler.

I recently had an email from Chandos' Ralph Couzens: "As Neeme Järvi is concerned that he will not be around to complete a whole cycle of Raff Symphonies, he has decided to select a strong popular list of pieces for the first disc and see how it goes before committing to more. I know this is not what Raff enthusiasts wanted to hear, but Neeme is 75 next year and feels he has much to still record around the world before he retires. If he was to record all the Raff symphonies he would have to cancel some of his other important plans."

So, we had better make sure that the first disc turns out to be a big seller!

Very interesting. It'll be worth keeping an eye on Chandos' recording plans...

Choice beyond mainstream is often severely limited. So it's good that Järvi - who can conduct very well - is helping to extend it. Without choice, the quality of orchestra/performance, interpretaton, tempo ... can get confused by the listener with the music itself and also a performing tradition may become harder to establish. Rather, deprecate the waste in churning out endless and frequently ubiquitous recordings of the most popular works that avoid risk and lack imagination by conductors.

I'm not sure whether or not this has already been mentioned on the forum, but the first disc, due to be recorded in June, will feature Symphony No.2 and Shakespeare Overtures.

:)

Quote from: Albion on Saturday 03 March 2012, 15:35
I'm not sure whether or not this has already been mentioned on the forum, but the first disc, due to be recorded in June, will feature Symphony No.2 and Shakespeare Overtures.
:)

Thanks for the heads-up, John. The news is on the Chandos Forum and was posted by Ralph Couzens himself. His precise words were:

<<Raff symphonies start recording this June. First disc will feature Symphony No. 2 and Shakespeare Tone Poems.>>

Fascinating that Symphony No.2 - perhaps Raff's least-known symphonic masterpiece - is the choice for the first disc. Encouraging too that more than a single disc is envisaged...

Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 03 March 2012, 19:08
Fascinating that Symphony No.2 - perhaps Raff's least-known symphonic masterpiece - is the choice for the first disc. Encouraging too that more than a single disc is envisaged...

I should think that honor should go to No. 6.  Unless you don't think that one is a masterpiece.

What's the normal delay from recording to releasing? Can we expect to get this before Dec 21? That Mayan calendar is staring us down. ;)

The Mayans were a civilization of Harold Campings. ;D

Actually, those big circular stone calendars, if I'm not mistaken, were inset in the stone blocks around the base of those pyramids.  There were only so many you could fit in those stone blocks.  To continue in sequence, at some point you would have to build another pyramid.  The Mayan civilization ended before they could begin another pyramid to continue the sequence.  Or so I infer.

Quote from: JimL on Saturday 03 March 2012, 19:49

Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 03 March 2012, 19:08
Fascinating that Symphony No.2 - perhaps Raff's least-known symphonic masterpiece - is the choice for the first disc. Encouraging too that more than a single disc is envisaged...

I should think that honor should go to No. 6.  Unless you don't think that one is a masterpiece.

I won't argue with that too hard as I like No.6 very much indeed. But I think the balance of critical opinion favours No.2. Thus A. Peter Brown, writing in The Symphonic Repertoire, volume 3 part A, says:

"Of all Raff's symphonies, the Second is certainly worthy of revival."

...and yet Helene Raff wrote that the 2nd Symphony "...has attracted relatively little attention."

Anyone know how long Chandos recordings stay in quarantine before release?

They can be pretty quick - Rufinatscha 6 came out within 6 months....

I see (apologies, probably mentioned) that Järvi included the Concert overture (Op.123) (which I like especially, but then I like that Marco Polo disc with the 7th symphony more than the average forumgoing bear) in three early December 2011 concerts with the Suisse Romande orchestra (according to the Concert Diary on his website.)
(And also besides Raff included this past season works by Halvorsen, Tubin, Atterberg, etc. in concerts with different orchestras. ... neat.)
(Ah, yes, I see you mentioned it at the time, Mark. Sorry!)

Osr.ch has the 2012/13 schedule (PDF) (http://www.osr.ch/files/documents_utiles/PG%20final%201213.pdf) up, though. Hrm! (No Raff. I wonder if there's more information on the website I'm missing...)

Ralph Couzens has now confirmed that Symphony No.2 and the Shakespeare overtures/tone poems were recorded in Geneva by Neeme Järvi and the Suisse Romande Orchestra:
http://www.classical-mp3.co.uk/index.php?topic=65.msg372;boardseen#new (http://www.classical-mp3.co.uk/index.php?topic=65.msg372;boardseen#new)

What wonderful news with which to initiate the renewed Forum!

Quite so, Peter.

What do you make of the fact that he recorded Nr. 2 instead of the far more popular (and marketable?)  3 or 5? I think that's really an interesting choice.

Indeed Martin. I think that it's a really intelligent and encouraging choice. Whilst the spectacular Im Walde and Lenore are the most "popular" of Raff's symphonies, the more restrained Nos.2 and 4 are arguably his most musically successful ones and, as such, possibly the best ambassadors for his symphonic music these days. To my mind it demonstrates that someone has looked very carefully at Raff's oeuvre and realised that this symphony is a hidden gem. Also the coupling of the Shakespeare Preludes (let's hope that they won't be once again wrongly dubbed "Overtures") is very welcome. The best interpretations which I've heard - Werner Andreas Albert's for cpo - never made it to disc. None of those currently in the market: Stadlmair's full set on Tudor and a couple from Schneider for  Marco Polo, match Albert's interpretations. Roll on Järvi's Second, say I!

In view of A.Peter Brown's esteem for Raff 2, I think we're in for a treat...

Yes, I'm sure a real treat is coming our way.

I do accept Mark's point about Raff 2 being one of the best ambassadors for the symphonic music. However I'd be wonderfully happy hearing Jarvi in any of the symphonies (or other orchestral music) - and that doesn't betray any indifference to the merits of Raff 2.

However what would be an even bigger treat (do treats come in sizes?) would be if someone gave us more of the string quartets. Everything I've read indicates the quartets rank high in the Raff canon. And yet (fingers crossed) if Chandos are about to embark on what will be the fourth complete set of the symphonies, it is maddening and exasperating to remember that CPO got as far as Volume 1 with the quartets performed by the Mannheim Qt way back in I think 2005, and nothing has happened since. Volume 1 comprised the two Op. 192 quartets, and marvellous they were. But are we ever going to get a Volume 2?

We've got two sets (both very good in my view) of the Piano Trios, all four Volumes on CPO of the works for Violin & Piano, the two utterly wonderful Divox CDs of the two Op. 202 Piano Quartets and Op. 107 Piano Quintet plus a number of other chamber works. But, bloomin' 'eck, where are the other string quartets?

Ironic really, since I guess if you happen to be a concert promoter or record company it is easier to find a string quartet for a performance rather than an ensemble for the less 'usual' piano quartet or quintet. Don't quite know about that, but living close to Aldeburgh and Snape (and with Potton Hall just up the road) I've got used to spotting well known quartets sunning themselves on the beach or supping pints in the pub (or in one case emerging from the renowned ice cream parlour in Aldeburgh High Street on a very hot day and promptly dribbling melted ices down shirt fronts). Very lucky us, for we live in an age when incredibly good string quartets seem to emerge from every quarter. So no excuse for lack of performances or recordings of the Raff quartets.

Apologies: thoughts of Raff and a lovely summer morning encourage undue loquacity and a wandering down a tangent away from the subject of the topic. And, forgive me yet again, for thoughts of string quartets and Aldeburgh reminds me that every day bar one next week will be spent at the Maltings attending masterclasses and performances of the Shostakovich quartets given by the Kopelman Quartet. I'm in heaven. But decidedly non-Romantic music, so I shut up before the hand of Alan or Mark is wielded in a swipe!

I understand that cpo have had recordings in the can for quite some time (i.e. years) of performances by the Mannheim String Quartets of the remaining quartets in Raff's canon. But, despite volume 2 (Nos.2 & 3) being promised for 2011 and then 2012 in their catalogues, nothing has appeared. It is intensely frustrating but I suppose is symptomatic of cpo's huge logjam of recordings which we all know they have and which we're desperate to hear.

For a quick fix, Peter, why not try the recordings by Steve Jones of Nos.3, 5 and 8 which he made at my suggestion? He'd be the first to acknowledge that they're no substitute for a professional recording but, to my ear, they're a more than adequate stop gap. You can track them down by searching for Steve's Bedroom Band at IMSLP, or they're all available at my Raff site here (http://www.raff.org/resource/steve.htm). Then you'd only be missing out on No.4.

Needless to say, many of Steve's recordings of Quartets by other unsung composers are a joy and I've spent many happy hours exploring his archive at IMSLP, which he continues to add to.

By the way, Tra Nguyen's third piano music CD will be coming out in November on Grand Piano and there are two further releases due from Sterling later this year, date as yet uncertain. So there's plenty more Raff, all of it recording premières, on the near horizon.

Thanks for your kind response, Mark.

In common with many others I'm deeply grateful to CPO - and deeply puzzled by their habit of devoting what must be considerable finances into recording projects.....and then keeping the results locked away. But that's been the subject of innumerable posts - so no need to revisit the issue!

However I suppose we ought to be encouraged by the fact that the remaining Raff quartets are at least recorded. So they are not in Never Never land. (Wonder what the Mannheim Quartet make of it?)

Your final paragraph gladdens the heart - a third Tra Nguyen disc (though very sadly the last in the series I believe?), and two Sterling releases. I guess the lips are sealed regarding the contents?

There is a couple in my home county of Suffolk who last week won £148 million on the National Lottery. Wonder how many Raff operas could be recorded with that budget?

Quote from: petershott@btinternet.com on Friday 17 August 2012, 23:29
I'm deeply grateful to CPO - and deeply puzzled by their habit of devoting what must be considerable finances into recording projects.....and then keeping the results locked away.

It is extraordinary, isn't it? I suppose that when the majority of projects seem to be joint ventures with radio companies an enormous backlog builds up. And they only release 6 CDs per month...

Apologies for the late reply, Peter. I've had a couple of weeks away from UC. I hope that Bo Hyttner won't mind me spilling the beans on the contents of Sterling's two upcoming Raff CDs.

The first CD is of religious choral music. The half-hour long De Profundis (http://www.raff.org/music/detail/vocal/profund.htm) for soprano, chorus and orchestra of 1867 and the 1853 Te Deum for chorus and orchestra are coupled with six a capella choral works: the Four Marian Antiphones, an Ave Maria and a Pater Noster. The second CD is purely orchestral. It has Raff's 1850 arrangement and orchestration of Liszt's sketches for his original Prometheus Unbound Overture together with a number of free-standing orchestral numbers from the 1882 Oratorio Welt-Ende - Gericht - Neue Welt. The final work is what remains of the 1854 Incidental Music to the play Bernhard von Weimar: The Overture and two marches. The Overture (transposed from C major to D major and with some changes to instrumentation) is better known now as the Overture Ein feste Burg ist unser Gott and it's that final published version which has been recorded as the original, in common with most Raff manuscripts, no longer exists. The Gothenburg orchestra is conducted by Henrik Schaefer. Release date is sometime in the next six months all being well, followed by a box set of all five of Sterling's Raff CDs at some stage in the farther future.

I uploaded some time ago to the Archive Downloads board earlier performances of both some Welt-Ende orchestral extracts and the Ein feste Burg Overture here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1373.msg36670.html#msg36670) and the Raff/Liszt Prometheus Unbound Overture here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,1373.msg16559.html#msg16559).

Both CDs sound like needed buys for me, especially the second one. Yummy.

This is very exciting news indeed, Mark. I look forward greatly to these releases. One can only hope that the orchestral excerpts from Welte Ende may eventually result in a professional recording of the whole oratorio. After all, if Hiller's "Fall of Jerusalem" can find its way onto disk, there is surely hope for World's End.

Well, I'm new here and have read through all the posts - pardon my bad Dutch-English - concerning the re-recording of
Raff Symphonies and other symphonic works. I own them all but must confess from 3 or 4 different labels and many more
conductors. I think the Tudor label has done a great job for Raff's case, which isn't easy. After all he's a second rate
first class composer of which there're many more. That doesn't mean his music doesn't need any attention. Problem with
this music is it only fares well with a first class conductor, recording and responsive orchestra.
Mr. Jarvi isn't an outsider in the recording industry but personally I was surprised to find him having any attention for
Raff's case. As stated before he doesn't excel in this kind of repertoire which needs much love and attention. That's why his Glazunov and Gade recordings - whose music can be compared with Raff's - don't go very well. For me - although he's 75 now - he's King of exaggerated tempos. I had the privilege to follow his conducting for 6 years because he was chief conductor of my very own local Residentie Orkest, The Hague. I remember a very rushed Bruckner 5, an idiotic and chaotically paced Mahler 7, which by the way was recorded by Chandos and has won a Mahler prize somewhere in Austria... a Brahms 4 where the finale was so rushed the players couldn't follow his tempo (he's a very difficult conductor to follow on the
beat, by the way).
Jarvi is THE conductor for more rough hen music like Tubin, you all know he did a very good cycle of his symphonies on BIS, for Alfvén, etc. Over here he never payed attention to any Dutch composer - of which there're many - and so he's not my man. But let's hope the Chandos - Jarvi marriage will last for many more years, they've given us many great things. But Raff............

Well, we'll just have to see won't we and we won't have long to wait as the first fruits of his new-found interest in Raff should be available within six months. Needless to say, I don't agree with your assessment of Raff's music, and I don't see how you can say that it "only fares well with a first class conductor, recording and responsive orchestra." How can you possibly say? To my knowledge, and with all due respect to the efforts of Herrmann, Stadlmair, Albert et al, none of their recordings have all of those characteristics (Herrmann's LSO was famously morose and unenthusiastic) and neither has any of the live performances I've heard. What's exciting about the Järvi/Chandos combo is that it potentially represents a step up in both interpretation and recording sound.

Quote from: M. Yaskovsky on Tuesday 04 September 2012, 20:05
Mr. Jarvi isn't an outsider in the recording industry but personally I was surprised to find him having any attention for
Raff's case. As stated before he doesn't excel in this kind of repertoire which needs much love and attention. That's why his Glazunov and Gade recordings - whose music can be compared with Raff's - don't go very well.

As Mark had to disagree with your assessment of Raff's music so I have to disagree with your assessment of Järvi's Glazunov cycle. To me Järvi's is the pinnacle of all Glazunov Symphony cycles I have heard so far. He pays much attention to detail, often with deep love and understanding, and he manages to instill real fire into his Bavarian band. To my mind no other conductor has been as successful in bringing out the mystical and the tragic side of Glazunov and - in the case of the 8th - an air of resignation which results not from exhaustion but from the awareness of having achieved utmost concentration. (After all, Glazunov didn't finish his 9th.)
Sorry for digressing - this was very much off-topic - but to me the Glazunov cycle is THE testimony for Järvi's greatness.

OK - digression forgiven, but now back to the topic...

First look at Chandos-Jarvi-Raff Vol 1
http://www.abeillemusique.com/SACD-Hybride/Classique/CHSA5117/0095115511725/Chandos-Records/Joachim-Raff/OEuvres-orchestrales-Volume-1/cleart-67181.html (http://www.abeillemusique.com/SACD-Hybride/Classique/CHSA5117/0095115511725/Chandos-Records/Joachim-Raff/OEuvres-orchestrales-Volume-1/cleart-67181.html)

The eyes have feasted on the image! Whao, Chandos! What a cause for celebration! And given such a fine record company, and a top notch conductor have taken up Raff then, fingers tightly crossed, Raff might make it to the concert hall. And if that happens, then hopefully, like a snowball, we might get even more Raff recorded. A look at the work-list quickly shows how much further there is to go. And think: just a very few years ago we had virtually no Raff and he was a name occasionally encountered in music history books or biographies of composers like Liszt. I'm also pretty sure the Raff Society has been a principal agent in this increased representation of Raff. (No need for anyone to blush!)

Finally, a mundane question: anyone know the date of release of this Chandos disc?

Looks good to me too!
Peter, the release date on the page given earlier appears to be 07/02/2013 - unless my French translation is wrong!
Hope this helps...

What a tonic after a busy day. Whoop-de-doo!

Yep - absolutely wonderful news. And particularly wonderful for those such as Mark who have consistently espoused his cause from their own pockets...

BTW, at 33:41 it looks as though it's going to be a very swift performance of Symphony No.2 indeed (Stadlmair comes in at 36:53; Schneider takes 36 minutes) - unless Järvi misses a repeat somewhere. Any thoughts, Mark?

Only the same as yours, Alan. Of course, Raff's metronome markings are notoriously fast and modern day conductors tend to play his music slower than the score indicates. Even so, Müller-Reuter, in his 1909 Lexikon, suggested a time of 35 minutes for the Symphony. Comparing Järvi's timings for the four Shakespeare Preludes with those of Werner Andreas-Albert, he takes about the same time over both Othello and Romeo & Juliet but knocks a minute off Macbeth from 12 to 11 and two minutes off The Tempest, bringing it down to 14 minutes.

The CD's now at jpc:
http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joachim-Raff-1822-1882-Symphonie-Nr-2/hnum/2423084 (http://www.jpc.de/jpcng/classic/detail/-/art/Joachim-Raff-1822-1882-Symphonie-Nr-2/hnum/2423084)

Here's the new Chandos CD:

(http://onebitaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/raff_sym_2_preludes.jpg)

This is excellent news, Alan, and I will definitely get a copy!

Not sure about the neo-Gothic aesthetic of the Friedrich style cover, but it's the music that counts!  :)

Love the cover as a cover. It's a bit wintry, though, for music so filled with sunshine. Maybe they were thinking of Macbeth?

...or Switzerland? Nah - no mountains.

It occurs to me... the notes to the recording may be available (as PDF) already, as is Chandos' (and Hyperion's, sometimes) oftentimes-habit? :) Hrm. Can't seem to find it on the website yet- well, maybe next month.

There's no official information yet, unfortunately.

I definitely like the cover and keep on looking at this fascinating, mysterious lane. What is it, between all left trees? Couches of stone? However, I cannot share your enthusiasm, because I'm perfectly happy with the Stadlmaier and, I'm so sorry to admit, I've never liked the Shakespeare Preludes that much... On the other hand, it won't be my first buy only because I like the cover...

Are they perhaps lights to illuminate the drive? (Look further down and they appear illuminated.) Or perhaps hobgoblins?

No matter, it is a disc to be got. (And I suspect, Peter, that when it is released there will be so much excited chatter on this site that you will just have to buy the disc to satisfy your curiosity!)

I'm so glad that somebody (namely Stadlmair) recorded these symphonies before Järvi got to them. I find his conducting style so coarse and bombastic that it tends to give me a bad impression of the works themselves if I haven't heard performances by other conductors. Nice cover design, though.

Quote from: Peter1953 on Thursday 27 December 2012, 22:52
I definitely like the cover and keep on looking at this fascinating, mysterious lane. What is it, between all left trees? Couches of stone? However, I cannot share your enthusiasm, because I'm perfectly happy with the Stadlmaier and, I'm so sorry to admit, I've never liked the Shakespeare Preludes that much... On the other hand, it won't be my first buy only because I like the cover...

Well, it shows how different tastes can be!  ;D

I find the cover deathly and alienated - no hint of humanity and quite at odds with Raff's music. On the other hand the Shakespeare Preludes are contenders for part of my "discovery of 2012" response!

Scheduled for release (in the UK at least) on 28 January 2013. Marvellous!

Ah, good-oh!

semioh- it was probably painted for a release of Sibelius 6 that was then delayed :) (all conjecture, all conjecture, but that would be such an appropriate cover!)

Presto are now advertising it here:
http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Chandos/CHSA5117
(http://www.prestoclassical.co.uk/r/Chandos/CHSA5117)

...as are Crotchet, here:
http://www.crotchet.co.uk/CHSA5117.html (http://www.crotchet.co.uk/CHSA5117.html)

Quote from: eschiss1 on Monday 31 December 2012, 16:20
semioh- it was probably painted for a release of Sibelius 6 that was then delayed :) (all conjecture, all conjecture, but that would be such an appropriate cover!)

Totally agree, Eric!

It set me thinking - what if I was given the task of choosing/designing a cover for the Raff release? I wonder what would be most appropriate. I think it would be a painting, but something warm and human, with a hint of metaphysical reflection. Maybe a family gathering in a cottage garden, surrounded by apple blossom and spring flowers, but with a distant view toward a church and a sinking sun.... Gosh, what a soppy old romantic I am!  ::)

Apologies for getting away from the music.

The CD is now at MDT:
http://www.mdt.co.uk/raff-joachim-symphony-no-2-romande-neeme-jarvi-chandos-sacd.html (http://www.mdt.co.uk/raff-joachim-symphony-no-2-romande-neeme-jarvi-chandos-sacd.html)

The Raff, as well as other Chandos new releases, are available for download NOW.

Al H.

...and can be sampled as well before buying:
http://www.theclassicalshop.net/Details.aspx?CatalogueNumber=CHAN%205117 (http://www.theclassicalshop.net/Details.aspx?CatalogueNumber=CHAN%205117)

Järvi's Raff 2 sounds really magnificent. I guess the controversial part of his interpretation is his fast speed for the slow movement but, as Mark T. has reminded me, this simply mirrors Raff's metronome indications in the score which are undoubtedly too fast for our our modern tastes. So, for me there's some re-assessment to do in listening to Järvi's take on the work.

Meanwhile, let's acknowledge a true masterpiece that is slowly regaining its rightful place...

Oh, and by the way, the recording and playing have all the glamour that, for my taste at least, was missing from Stadlmair/Tudor.

I must say I was pleasantly surprised by Jarvi's tempo in the 2nd movt. Much more a real "andante". Tempi in the 19th century were generally faster, it seems, than we have become used to. Perhaps Klemperer has much to answer for here with his sometimes leaden and lugubrious interpretations. Bernstein too, occasionally, for all that they were both great conductors. Josef Holbrooke used always to encourage those conducting his music to "get a move on" - people like Clarence Raybould needed no such encouragement!

Tempi in the 19th century being generally faster...

I am not -that- sure this is the case. At least there was some debate on the subject (at the time, with Mendelssohn e.g. encouraging a tradition of faster movement in e.g. Beethoven conducting and Liszt later encouraging more flexibility in a broader basic tempo, I gather.)

I'm both hugely heartened by Alan's and Gareth's very positive reports and frustrated that, as I'm not at home at present, I can't hear the recording for a few days! I can hardly wait.

As regards faster tempi in the 19th century, it's very instructive to get hold of a copy of Theodore Müller-Reuter's Lexikon der deutschen Konzertliterarur of 1909. He gives timings for many of the major symphonic, choral and chamber works which remain in the concert repertoire today (but he also includes both Raff and Gernsheim). His timings aren't uniformly faster then has become the norm, but they are frequently so, and especially for the slow movements.

Interesting that both Eric and Mark put a damper on the often held belief that tempi in the 19th century were frequently faster than that of present day performances. It makes perfect sense to me (and seems to cohere with what one reads in contemporary letters, notes and other writings).

Off-thread, I know, but I wonder if I may squeeze one small question into this Raff thread. Would it be reasonable to think that what holds true for orchestral music also holds true for chamber and piano works? (I recently heard the Takacs Quartet recording of Schubert's 'Death and the Maiden' quartet on Hyperion, and was so horrified by the fast speeds it went straight to the charity shop without further ado. I can't think the Takacs were following contemporary performance practice. The whole thing quite disturbed me!)

Apologies for interrupting the thread!

On listening to Järvi in the slow movement one thing is clear: he has the orchestra to pull it off and a much surer sense of where the music is going than Stadlmair (who for once sounds almost somnolent by comparison). And everything else is just fabulous - more light and shade than with Stadlmair and much more oomph than with Schneider.

I'm sure that slow tempi in the romantic repertoire has been a legacy of certain conductors. Klemperer certainly comes to mind (in his EMI period), as does Giulini. And as for Celibidache (much as I love his Bruckner 7 with the BPO), well...

I think we have a lot to be grateful to Neeme Järvi for.

I don't think there's any question about the slowing down in the last 100 years. Go back just 50-70 years and listen to recordings by the likes of Paray, Monteux, Koussevitsky, Beecham, Barbirolli and many more and then compare to more recent recordings from 1960 on. It wasn't just Klemperer. Listening to Bruckner by him, Celibidache, Maazel, Barenboim and some others is torture. But swifter tempi taken by Walter(!), Wand, Sieghardt and others just bring the music to life. Same with Wagner - it benefits greatly with a quicker pulse. The finale of the Mahler 7th has long been troubled, but I think Kondrashin got closer to the truth that anyone: by bringing it in near 15 minutes that movement just blazes along and becomes a joyous ride that completely eluded Klemperer and many other more famous conductors. You can go overboard - I think Stadlmair ruined the first movement of Raff's Lenore by going too fast.

And it's not just music that this happens in, either. Lately I've been watching a lot of old, classic movies. Especially in British films the actors speak so quickly compared to current films. The Lady Killers, Now, Voyager, The Man Who Knew Too Much (original) -- they also make great use of classical music without condescension or ridicule, unlike today's movies.

Some comparisons of timings might shed some further light on Raff 2:

     Schneider                      Stadlmair                   Järvi
1.      11:43                         11:33                       12:38
2.        9:54                         10:29                         7:26
3.        5:33                           5:39                         5:31
4.        8:50                           8:55                         8:13

As you can see, Stadlmair and Schneider are pretty much of a muchness. It's Järvi who is the most relaxed in the first movement, quickest (by far) in the second movement Andante con moto and swiftest in the finale. The scherzo is pretty similar in all three performances.

So, I think what it comes down to is: what does Andante con moto mean in a Raff symphony?

Quoteboth Eric and Mark put a damper on the often held belief that tempi in the 19th century were frequently faster

Sorry if I worded things badly, Peter, but I actually support the contention that slow movements have got slower over the 20th century. I don't have Müller-Reuter with me of course, but it would be interesting to see what his suggested timings for the Symphony are. As for Alan's question, I can only quote something said by the great conductor and lifelong friend of Raff, Hans von Bülow: "With Raff, everything goes rather quickly."

I'll admit to feeling a bit "out of it" on the Raff front just now, comfortably marooned here in Austria! So, I have managed to download the mp3s and have listened to the Andante con moto which, to my ears, flows on very convincingly from Järvi's luminously expansive opening movement, in which he still has a proper regard for the need to maintain momentum. The slow movement itself is certainly very much faster than we are used to, but it still contrasts sufficiently with the movements either side of it. Although some of its usual gravitas is inevitably lost, who is to say that Raff intended it to be so weighty? The upside is that the climaxes in particular are quite thrilling and it now serves to emphasise the vibrancy and joyousness of the whole work, rather than acting as a counterweight to the other three movements. My old laptop is the lowest of low-fi, so I can't really pass judgement of the quality of the recording or playing, but at first hearing I am as convinced as I can be that Järvi has given us a splendid addition to the Raff catalogue.

It's good that your experienced ears find Järvi convincing, Mark. For me Raff 2 will certainly never be the same again after hearing him in it.

Certainly Alan is absolutely right about the orchestral playing and the rich sound - also the light and shade - in Jarvi's recording. It's marvellous to hear Raff played by a first class orchestra in good sound with a conductor sensitive to the composer's demands.
As to the question of tempi it probably does come down to what one understands by "andante". Classical "andante" was certainly faster than the speed some conductors have taken Romantic "andante", but should there be a difference? For years we were told that Beethoven's metronome markings were the result of a faulty metronome. Then along comes Roger Norrington and, by and large, observes them pretty faithfully - and, goodness(!) how the music springs to life suddenly. I'm not saying one should rush things (that too is a fault) or avoid being expansive - but so often there has been an indulgent wallowing in Romantic lushness, and slow movts. always seem to get the worst of this, which often does the music a great disservice and produces a turgid mush of sound which I think would probably have horrified the composer.

For awhile wasn't andante less a tempo indication, than a request to keep the _walking_ bass marked and regular?

A wise man heeds those whose understanding towers above his own. I take Gareth's point completely about how slowness can result in a turgid mush of sound (ooh, horrors!).

But then being far too fast can also produce a maddening result. In parenthesis in my previous post I gave the example of the Takacs Quartet playing Schubert on a recent Hyperion disc. It is taken far faster than any Quartet I've heard. All the reviews I've read have praised the disc and lavishly covered it with gold stars and 5 pluses. I wanted to do the same when I bought it. But I thought their fast performance although technically brilliant utterly murdered Schubert.

Am I quite alone in the world? Has anyone else heard the CD? I'd love to know other reactions, if only to confirm that I am indeed alone in the world in holding this opinion!

We probably ought not to go down the Schubert route here. Perhaps anyone with thoughts on the subject could send Peter a private message...

Anyway, Järvi's Raff 2 has certainly provoked an interesting debate. Further thoughts anyone?

Thanks Alan. I wasn't intending to divert a Raff thread into a Schubert one. But then I suppose this very interesting Raff thread has given rise to issues that go beyond Raff, and that poses a challenge to moderators in knowing where to best place some responses.

All I was after was that whilst it might effect an improvement in the 'delivery' of an andante movement to adopt a brisker tempo than has become customary among a large number of conductors (as in perhaps the case of Raff), sometimes adopting a brisker tempo can ruin the music. And the Takacs recording of the Death and the Maiden quartet perfectly illustrates the point - or at least in my view, which is doubtless a minority one! Maybe all this simply reflects my stubborn and inflexible prejudices, the result of worshipping at the feet of the Amadeus in my student days when I first started to listen to quartets!

In a concert over the summer I also heard the Doric - a marvellously competent young quartet - give a really thrusting and almost hectic performance of one of the Haydn Op. 20 quartets. Wow, the technique was astonishing...but I almost fell off my chair in anguish. Far, far too fast! I'm sure Haydn would have curled up for the elegance, wit and good humour of the work were suffocated. Interestingly, they also gave a performance of the d'Indy quartet (a far superior quartet to the Debussy!) that was slower than I've heard it performed before by a good number of quartets.....and by gosh, it was the best performance of that quartet I've ever heard and showed it to be a real masterpiece. (At the time the Doric were recording d'Indy for Chandos up the road in Potton Hall - disc out on January 28 in the same batch as Raff and I'd encourage all to place advance orders, for both discs of course!)

All this maybe explains why, a few posts earlier in the thread, I was wondering whether, if there is a case for thinking a brisker tempo than what we've got used to in post-Klemperer days might do an orchestral work wonders, a similar brisker pace effects similar rewards in the case of chamber and instrumental works? My hunch is a 'no' to that question. But that's a general issue that goes way beyond Raff - maybe I should have initiated a distinct thread?

Do initiate, Peter...

I've listened a few times now to the Second Symphony's Andante in this new recording and I can reassure you, Peter, that it most emphatically does work. It is certainly radically faster than we are used to hearing but it isn't fast; rather, Järvi has imbued it with the "motion" which Raff requests in his tempo indication. The result is music which is much more dramatic in places and, as I mentioned in yesterday's post, quite thrilling in the climaxes. Listen with an open mind and I practically guarantee a Pauline conversion. Couple this with an expansive, but never dragging opening movement and a finale played with real conviction and, even though I have yet to hear the recording in proper sound, I can say unequivocally that this is my Raff Second of choice. I have always reckoned it to be amongst Raff's best symphonies and here that is amply demonstrated. Hearing the four Shakespeare Preludes will have to wait until I get home, but I have very high hopes that Järvi will again eclipse the so-so performances which have so far been available to us. On the strength of this first release I hope and pray that we may get a full symphonic cycle from Järvi and this orchestra - it would be a revelation.

Damn - the brain is obviously going at far too slow a tempo.

In my post above I referred to a forthcoming Chandos CD of the Doric String Quartet performing the d'Indy quartet.

The ever astute Eric asked me: which one (of the three)?

And I then realised I meant to refer to Chausson's Op. 35 quartet - which was completed by d'Indy.

Apologies to all, and especial thanks to Eric for drawing my attention to my sloppy habits. (There is now a bruise on my shin where I kicked myself.)

The Doric played this very fine quartet more slowly than I remembered of performances by other quartets. And not a trace of "a turgid mush of sound" in Gareth's memorial phrase. I think it is going to be a very exceptional disc. Quicker tempi might well work for Raff, and maybe for a lot of orchestral music (maybe we're still affected by the legacy of Klemperer and Karajan-itis and need to blow away those particular cobwebs). But I don't think a more brisk delivery works for most chamber and instrumental music).

Now back to Raff and the thread. (I can't wait to get hands on the new Chandos Raff disc and I eagerly await my Pauline conversion!)

Quote from: petershott@btinternet.com on Sunday 06 January 2013, 17:26
the legacy of Klemperer and Karajan-itis

Actually, Karajan is much harder to pigeon-hole than Klemperer. His Beethoven was always pretty swift, his Schubert 9 even more so, his Mendelssohn and Schumann athletic and his Brahms pretty middle-of-the-road. What people often objected to was his liking for smooth and blended textures. For me he was the greatest conductor who ever lived - I'd love to hear what he would have done with Raff 2, although I suspect he wouldn't have been as daring as Järvi...

Friends may like to read Avrohom Leichtling's stimulating sleevenote to the Raff recording here:
http://www.chandos.net/pdf/CHSA%205117.pdf (http://www.chandos.net/pdf/CHSA%205117.pdf)

... good, but I think he's confusing "objective" with "objectivist" (whatever that word's come to mean) (or versa-vice) on page 8. Otherwise, (and assuming he is not making some sort of odd very compressed joke)... HUH?

I think, Eric, it is a reference to Ayn Rand's 'objectivist' philosophical system in which she insisted that reason (or rather Reason) was the key to proper knowledge of reality, rather than emotion, feeling, passion or whatever. All rather ramshackle (and hardly novel I think). Ignore it - Raff is what matters here!

I'm not going to defend Dr Leichtling's philosophical aside (it's a bit of a stretch, I think, as well as being pretty unintelligible without any further explanation) - but I do think that he has a genuine handle on Raff's creative processes in general and on his decidedly classical/rational approach to composition in particular - especially in an era when the composers Raff was identified with (wrongly, as it turns out!), i.e. those of the New German School such as Liszt, Cornelius, etc., had moved towards much freer and more extended modes of expression.

Avrohom's essay is, indeed, a model of its kind.

In an earlier post, I mentioned how instructive it can be to look at Müller-Reuter's Lexikon, to get an idea of late 19th century performance timings. I've now returned home and, interestingly, his suggested timings for the Second Symphony are:

     Schneider                      Stadlmair                   Järvi                   Müller
1.      11:43                         11:33                       12:38                 12:00
2.        9:54                         10:29                         7:26                 10:00
3.        5:33                           5:39                         5:31                   5:00
4.        8:50                           8:55                         8:13                   8:00

So, against my expectations, it turns out that Järvi is still considerably faster in the second movement than was common by 1909. Still, the proof of the pudding etc., and I find it an invigorating listen.

Very interesting, Mark. It'll be instructive to see whether the critics pick up on the subject...

I note this wording at Chandos' website:

<<This disc marks the beginning of a new series of recordings devoted to the engaging, albeit neglected orchestral music of the Swiss-German composer Joachim Raff.>>
(emphasis added)

So, this is to be a series of recordings - wonder how many are planned?

Quiet, I'm hugging myself!

Yes, if they go as far beyond the symphonies as they have for some other composers in similar series, and there seems to be a lot of orchestral Raff un- or under-recorded (I very much like the concert overture op.123 and I await a second recording with happy anticipation, for instance)? -- well, it is very good news!

Under-recorded orchestral Raff there certainly is, Eric, but there will be no un-recorded free-standing orchestral works of any substance once Sterling's series of CDs is concluded later this year. The final CD will have Raff's arrangement and orchestration of Liszt's original 1850 sketches for the Prometheus Overture, a reconstruction of the Incidental Music to Bernhard von Weimar (the Ein feste Burg Overture and two marches) and the orchestral intermezzi from the oratorio Welt-Ende -  Gericht - Neue Welt.

All that will remain unavailable then will be Raff's orchestrations of three dances from a set originally written for piano four hands. The Concert Overture has been recorded twice: by Schneider for Marco Polo (still available as a download) and by Stadlmair for Tudor. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Chandos used it as a filler.

I downloaded the CD a few days ago. Since then, I have listened to it some 7 or 8 times already and I must say, I have been most pleasantly surprised. Symphony no 2, although liked, was never one of my out and out favourite Raff symphonies but now, it has become exactly that : one of my favourite Raff symphonies, thanks to Järvi's splendid interpretation! The sound is much better than the Stadlmair, the orchestration is more vivid and the faster tempo of the second movement sounds exactly right! The 4 overtures are also wonderful. I am really looking forward to seeing what symphony Järvi next tackles (if I were to choose, I would opt for either Im Walde or Lenore as there is always room for a new and hopefully excellent interpretation)!

Alan's the one with the inside info on Chandos, but I think it's Lenore next, isn't it?

The Shakespeare Preludes, which Dennis has mentioned, are also much more successful in Järvi's hands than in any other recording, including my previous front runner, the broadcast Albert/NDR ones which were unfortunately never issued by cpo. The most compact work, Othello, receives a hugely powerful performance, with every last drop of drama squeezed out of it. Although I would have preferred Macbeth to be just a little more expansive and not quite so driven in the faster passages, it too is a very exciting listen in Järvi's hands and the orchestra's virtuosity is quite astonishing. To be honest, I've never thought much of Raff's Romeo & Juliet. His melodic gift seems to desert him in a work which cries out for a "big tune". Again Järvi makes a good case for the piece and, whilst he can't improve Raff's thematic material, his careful phrasing of the quieter passages makes them much more effective than I've heard before. The longest work, The Tempest, is rather more rambling than the other three scores and under both Stadlmair and Albert it seems at best an attractive but disjointed work. Compared to their performances, Järvi has tightened it up substantially and in the process revealed a much more coherent piece which, whilst it remains more episodic than the other three, benefits from Järvi's brisk tempi now giving it a narrative flow lacking in the other interpretations. All in all, the Preludes are as much of a revelation as the Symphony. What a fabulous Raff debut!

p.s. (and I'm not getting at you, Dennis) I never understand why so many people, including CD labels, persist in calling the Shakespeare pieces "Overtures". Each is quite deliberately titled "Orchestral Prelude to Shakespeare's Othello" etc., Vorspiel not Ouvertüre, yet even Raff's pupil Macdowell, who got Macbeth and Romeo & Juliet published in the USA in the 1890s, wrote of them to Raff's widow as "Overtures"!

Lenore is apparently next in line for Järvi.

As I go on listening to Järvi in Raff 2 and then compare it with the two previous recordings, it is slowly dawning on me just how much has been missing up to now. In particular, Järvi brings out all the orchestral colours missing, particular from Stadlmair's account, as well as the sheer punch and exuberance of the writing. It's almost as if a familiar painting has had a good clean and is being seen for the first time. It also reminds me how important it is that unfamiliar music is as well presented as possible: I've no doubt that this single CD will do more for Raff's reputation than any issued up to now - yes, even than Herrmann's Lenore!

I understand that the Lenore Symphony will be recorded this coming June and that the couplings will be the Jübel-ouvertüre Op.103 and the Overture to the opera König Alfred.

Life becomes better and better, eh?

Fab-u-lous!

Great news - pity though that we will have to wait some time for the CD to become available. The wait will be worth it!

I guess it'll be available around this time next year...

I should clarify that I know that the overtures will be recorded then. I have assumed that Lenore will be the symphony recorded with them. I suppose it's always possible that the overtures will be part of Volume three and that another symphony will be the coupling. But that would be too much to hope for!

I look forward to the Järvi's Lenore. Not a single recording of this magnificent work comes anywhere near Herrmann's reading. Järvi might be the one to break that trend. Lets all hope, wait and see!

I'm betting that Järvi will be quicker than Herrmann...

Tomorrow, January 28, is the great day when this first Chandos disc is released. I reckon tonight I'll be setting up the camp bed behind the front door in anticipation....and pity the poor postman if he doesn't deliver it!

Less frivolously, I feel that this Chandos release marks a significant turning point in recordings of Raff. Yes, I'm immensely grateful to CPO, Tudor, Sterling, Grand Piano, Divox and a few others (and obviously to all who have recorded Raff on these labels). But maybe, for good or ill, they are all somewhat 'specialist' labels and slightly out of the public eye?

In contrast Chandos is a label with real 'clout'. Not for nothing do folk talk of 'the Chandos sound'. Chandos also give a considerable push to their products in prominent publicity. I notice the full page Chandos advertisement in current magazines which highlights the Raff disc out of the 6 new releases this month, and the text reads "....one of the most widely performed and influential musicians of his time..." (I don't think Mark could put it better, even though that "widely performed" is a little generous!)

Chandos is clearly making maximum effort, and I'm sure heralding the disc as 'Volume 1' will further increase its attractiveness. A top notch conductor to boot, and one deservedly known to the public.

Surely all this is going to elevate Raff to that prominent place in music that is so rightly his and which previously he has been unjustly denied! All enormously exciting....and I anticipate much restless tossing and turning on that camp bed tonight!

Fingers crossed, Peter, that all you say comes to pass - except maybe the tossing and turning!

At the risk of repeating what Peter has written, what a joy it was to open my copy of this month's Gramophone just now and see, on the inside front cover, Chandos' full page advertisement with the top third promoting a surround sound SACD of first rate Raff, played by Neeme Järvi and a top flight orchestra. All endorsed with "Record of the month".

Who'd have thought it?

Never thought I'd ever read of a chap fluttering with joy at opening The Gramophone!

I discovered Raff about 10, maybe 15, years ago. I hadn't inhabited some kind of musical cloister, or had deliberately chosen not to listen to Raff.  No, it was because there was so little Raff to be heard in broadcasts or recordings. I don't know whether Raff was played more in Germany perhaps (I somehow doubt it), but most of us lived in a world quite devoid of Raff.

There has been a hugely welcome growth of interest in Raff in recent years, and I think this new Chandos disc marks the start of an age when people no longer ask 'Who?' when they hear the name 'Raff'.

What accounts for the change? That's obviously a complex question. But I think all would agree that you, Mark, have been a key principal player here. There has been a tremendous amount of work gone into the Raff website, and a constant advocacy of Raff. I'm also sure that behind the scenes and out of the public eye you've been tireless in promoting Raff. The two Raff books, in Alan's masterful and so wonderfully fluent English translations and edited by yourself, also play a prominent role in the emergence of interest in Raff.

It is tremendous that it is now beyond argument that Raff is a major 19th century composer. I hope I don't appear dreadfully sycophantic, but I am quite sure that without your dedication to the Raffian cause this latter recognition of Raff's rightful place in musical history would not have occurred quite in the way it has. And thus if you take joy in opening The Gramophone and beholding that inside front cover, then do also be conscious that a good many people now have the opportunity to also take great joy in listening to Raff's music as part of their musical lives.

Thank you, Peter, you are very kind. In truth, there has been a team of like-minded advocates, some of whom  like Avrohom Leichtling, Alan and Gareth are known to many at UC, whilst others like Volker Tosta, Res Marty and the late Alan Krueck are not. There is still a long way to go, but I do think that we have now at least got to the stage where amongst the younger generation of musicians, musicologists and CD buyers, and indeed most recording executives, Raff is no longer an unknown and is no longer automatically denigrated. Although there are signs in Germany in particular of a growing interest in programming his music at concerts, I have my doubts whether he'll break through into the mainstream concert scene in the foreseeable future. But then the repertoire there is shrinking so quickly, with composers who were once staples now rarely heard, that that may be an irrelevant target.

So... how's the recording? anyone get it yet? I'm interested in starting a Raff discography but I can't spend on multiple versions, so I'm very interested in how this new cycle will come out, if it's good (I like Järvi...) I'll buy it as it is released...

Some of the earlier posts in this thread from myself and others give reviews of this CD.

Quote from: Hilleries on Friday 08 February 2013, 21:17
So... how's the recording? anyone get it yet? I'm interested in starting a Raff discography but I can't spend on multiple versions, so I'm very interested in how this new cycle will come out, if it's good (I like Järvi...) I'll buy it as it is released...

You may wait for ever because a cycle hasn't been promised - only a series: the CDs appear to be being recorded at the rate of one a year. So, at the risk of repeating my own preferences from elsewhere, I'd get hold of Stadlmair in Nos.1, 4, 6, 7 and 8-11, plus d'Avalos in No.3 and Herrmann in No.5. Raff's symphonies are too good to wait a decade to get to know them.

Just revisiting the question of Järvi's "fast" tempo in the slow movement, I see that Raff's metronome marking is ¼ = 92, which is quite a moderate pace. I'm no expert in this field, but it seems to me that Järvi may be a lot nearer to Raff's intentions than Stadlmair and Schneider were.

A pair of "old school" reviews, with their lazy references to Mendelssohn. Bah!

The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2013/feb/21/raff-symphony-no2-shakespeare-review) (which at least recognises the value of the Shakespeare Preludes).

The Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/theticket/2013/0222/1224330337632.html).

mendelssohn is hardly a symphonist, but Raff is.

Calm down, Mark! I saw the Guardian review this morning at breakfast time and it so annoyed me I almost threw the boiled egg across the kitchen. But then thought one of our eggs is far more precious than Andrew Clements. I don't have any problem with someone coming to the conclusion that they don't particularly like Raff. What does irritate me is when people who have a responsibility to review properly (in return, presumably, for some fee) trot out routine drivel and with little evidence that their judgments are the outcome of reasoned and informed consideration.

We can simply ignore Mr Clements (who is equally silly on contemporary music for that matter) since the Chandos release has had many far more positive reviews elsewhere.

Funny how each reviewer came to entirely opposite conclusions about the relative merits of the symphony and preludes.  A side-by-side comparison is most invaluable in terms of a close examination of critical objectivity.  Looks like a wash to me!  ;D

And one doesn't need to bash Mendelssohn's abilities to write symphonically to promote Raff, either... anycase, I disagree with that statement for what I would say are good reasons.

Quite so, Eric. Mendelssohn wrote at least two great symphonies (3 & 4) and three other utterly memorable ones (leaving aside the string symphonies). In Raff's symphonies, the composer slowly develops his own personal synthesis of the Mendelssohnian and Lisztian traditions. To anyone who has taken the trouble to familiarise him/herself with them, Raff could never be confused with the older master. 

If I threw eggs every time a bone-head of a reviewer irritated me my kitchen would be coloured an eternal yellow. At least we're well beyond the point of Raff being just one of a jumble names (along with Cornelius, Tausig, and Von Bulow) mentioned in the odd Liszt biography.

And, at the risk of deviating from the primary topic I would also have to say that Mendelssohn's Lobsegang is just as much a masterpiece as the much touted 3rd, and 4th.
Two cents  ;)

Quote from: kolaboy on Friday 22 February 2013, 18:33
I would also have to say that Mendelssohn's Lobsegang is just as much a masterpiece as the much touted 3rd, and 4th.

You may well be right.

I have a soft spot for the Lobgesang too.  As to the reviews of the Chandos/Jarvi Raff disk, the Irish Times is so short it is scarcely worth bothering about - clearly written by a musical hack (probably doubles up on the sports and financial columns as well!).  I am pleased, however, that The Guardian recognized the worth of the Shakespeare preludes.

You're absolutely right, Kolaboy. At long long last we can say that Raff has finally 'arrived' and is no longer one of those shadowy figures lurking in the footnotes of a Liszt biography. I should have remembered that and not have been tempted to malacious treatment of an egg!

Raff has arrived on CD, but not in concert performances. I fear, Peter, that 'unsung' has to mean more than 'recording available', good start though this undoubtedly is. For example, how many treatments of Raff's music have been published in the modern era?

I suppose you're actually right, Alan, I admit with some sadness.

Just one anecdote might illustrate the matter. I was talking with a member of a very well known String Quartet after a concert at Snape towards the end of the summer.

Question: Why don't you perform or record works outside the 'canon'?

Answer: Well, they're not 'central' or are 'less important'. If we routinely included such items within our repertory, then commentators [presumably lazy journalists] would start thinking we couldn't compete with the most renowned Quartets in performing Beethoven, Brahms, Schubert etc.

I guess much the same goes for orchestras and conductors.

Sad, isn't it?

A member of the Orlando Quartet was, I think, put a similar question (they do record and perform some less-known modern works but the question was about 19th-century undersung works, I think) in an interview in Fanfare, quite awhile back.  The response was a little different - they wouldn't know where to start- but still -

is begged the question the phrase I want?... - (obviously... if you wouldn't know where to start but really want to, there are solutions for that.  E.g.-- please, I just mean for example... - start with Cobbett's, take some notes, have an advisor whose expertise is in 19th-c music, go from there... )

I have a feeling that part of the problem is that modern audiences have got into the habit of fearing that any unfamiliar name is going to turn out to be an astringent serialist, and they shy away from anything unfamiliar and therefore not "safe". It's a great shame.

I'm sure you are partly right. To counter this, whenever I arrange a concert, I always put the dates after the name of any composer with which I think the audience may be unfamiliar.  I don't know if this does any good, but it might help.

Ah well, I'd be much more worried that the composer was, like any number I've run into, absolutely talentless and a waste of my time; quite a few of the "astringent serialists"- but we've had this discussion and it goes nowhere.

I think dates (and nationalities?) in the notice of a concert might well be useful in 'introducing' a potential audience to a composer, making them possibly a little less apprehensive about what they might hear following the purchase of a ticket.

And I don't want to be too insulting to those with innocent ears but how about a little thumbnail picture or sketch of the composer? After all, I think that very often there is a curious kind of congruence between a composer's image and the nature of his music. (Except - and to retrieve the thread - in the case of Raff. For I happen to think there is somehow a complete lack of 'fit' between what Raff looks like and what his marvellous music sounds like!)

Oooh, but what sort of utter rot is this! What kind of world are we living in where potential audiences have to be lulled into buying a ticket or persuaded by gimmickry into listening to the work of a composer? Is this the world of dumbed down culture? When I was at school and then later university we all knew there was a world out there way beyond our present experiences and even imaginings. And it was perfectly natural to want to find out more about it by reading books and attending to those wiser than ourselves. You very quickly cottoned on to the idea that within your grasp, and with a little bit of effort, there was great music to be heard and that listening to it provided not only endless pleasure but, despite the chores of having to conjugate Latin verbs or ponder over algebraic conundrums, a sense that there was after all some point to life. I was far from a swot but I didn't have to be lured into a concert by a composer's dates, images of him, or the promise of a bag of sweets. On the contrary, no-one could keep me out of concerts. Grrrr, why this dumbo world where people have to be told 1822-1882 to entice them into sampling the music of Raff? Humph, end of rant!

Well I for one am much more likely to explore an unfamiliar composer whose dates are 1822-1882 than one whose dates are 1922-1982, so dates are important and helpful. However, given that Schmidt-Kowalski's were 1949-2013, I have to remind myself at least to check the latter's music out...

How about 1811-1886?

Quote from: eschiss1 on Monday 04 March 2013, 15:14
How about 1811-1886?

What about Liszt?

hrm... very sorry in retrospect and on much consideration I mentioned...

No problem, Eric. Doubtless I didn't make myself very clear. I just meant that the mention of dates is often very useful - and that I'd be much more likely to pursue a nineteenth-century set of dates than a twentieth-century set...

Well then - but consider the dates of someone like George Lloyd ...

I've just been tickled by noticing a 'customer review' on Amazon of the new Chandos Raff 2 disc. It comes from a chap who boasts he has a pretty stupendous audio system (which he plays very loud!), and he tells all Amazon customers that, technically, this disc is "the best ever".

Bless him! I am now writing to the editor of The Guardian suggesting (when he is not practising his Chopin - anyone read that recent story?) that they appoint a new music critic in the present very shabby page of "classical reviews" that appears each Friday.

Actually this kind of comment must help to promote Raff surely? Maybe all the owners of high end hifi gear will be buying Raff to test out their systems. Hope so anyhow.

Quote from: Gauk on Monday 04 March 2013, 22:10
Well then - but consider the dates of someone like George Lloyd ...

I didn't say I wouldn't pursue someone such as Lloyd. He just comes a long way down my list of priorities...

Not my point ... I meant that you can have someone whose dates are entirely in the 20th century who is still writing music in an essentially romantic style. So dates alone are not a good guide.

Quote from: petershott@btinternet.com on Monday 04 March 2013, 22:13
Bless him! I am now writing to the editor of The Guardian suggesting (when he is not practising his Chopin - anyone read that recent story?) that they appoint a new music critic in the present very shabby page of "classical reviews" that appears each Friday.

It's not Andrew Clements's fault that he is allocated such a small space compared to the pop music "reviews".

Quote from: Gauk on Tuesday 05 March 2013, 07:53
Not my point ... I meant that you can have someone whose dates are entirely in the 20th century who is still writing music in an essentially romantic style. So dates alone are not a good guide.

And we cater for such composers. But Lloyd wouldn't come into that category, I'm afraid, whereas the much later Schmidt-Kowalski would. Dates may not tell you very much, but they are a good starting-point.

The Late Schmidt-Kowalski who unfortunately passed away the January of this year. Has his work been cataloged?

S-K's works are listed here:
http://www.schmidt-kowalski.de/german/index_ger.htm (http://www.schmidt-kowalski.de/german/index_ger.htm)

Meanwhile, back to Raff...

Quote from: Alan Howe on Tuesday 05 March 2013, 10:42

Quote from: Gauk on Tuesday 05 March 2013, 07:53
Not my point ... I meant that you can have someone whose dates are entirely in the 20th century who is still writing music in an essentially romantic style. So dates alone are not a good guide.

And we cater for such composers. But Lloyd wouldn't come into that category, I'm afraid, whereas the much later Schmidt-Kowalski would. Dates may not tell you very much, but they are a good starting-point.

Maybe this is not the right thread, but I would be interested to know why Lloyd doesn't fit the bill. I would have said he fitted the site's definition of "romantic" if Mahler does.

We've decided that Lloyd - like, say, Walton or Barber - is a writer of music that is tonal and may have tunes, but doesn't fit our general criteria owing to the admixture of dissonance involved. A comparison with Schmidt-Kowalski demonstrates the point: S-K qualifies, Lloyd doesn't.

Anyway, this was a debate that was pursued pretty well ad nauseam at the time of the re-launch of UC last August, and we don't intend to keep going over the same ground. So, back to Raff, please...

which is why I dropped, say, Liszt. The definition we gave "grandfathers" in 19th-century music- which is ridiculous and incoherent, considering- but- well... eh... whatever. Carry on!

Finally, after much anticipation, much reading this thread, yesterday my copy of the Chandos Raff 2 was delivered. I listened twice. This is a thrilling disk!
The recorded SACD sound is quite impressive -- the Tudor is really good, but SACD just opens everything up. Very natural reverb sound, too. Didn't listen to the CD layer.

The performance: this is what the 2nd needed. I know Mark has been very adamant about the greatness of this symphony, which I never could agree with. But having heard this new recording, my estimation of the 2nd has certainly risen. Jarvi, who can be brusque, impatient and superficial, here seems to really understand the work and makes it shine. Even the finale works. I still have a problem with Raff's coda: it just seems unprepared or hurried. If audiences could hear this music live, performed this way, they would be quite pleased with a concert. It's nice to have the Shakespeare works together, and so well played. I would defy anyone to "name that Shakespeare play from hearing the music alone. I've never found Jarvi compelling in Germanic literature (awful Brahms, so-so Beethoven, uninvolving Mahler) but he's really, really good with this.

The orchestra sure sounds great - balanced, in tune, warm. Is it as good as the Bamberg? Yes. Much better than anything Marco Polo used.

Dr. Avrohom Leichtling provides great notes that don't get mired down in technical mumbo jumbo but still provides great insight into the music that only a professional composer could.

I don't know how much Raff Jarvi is committed to, but given this great release I hope he does as much as he can, but 3 & 5 at least!

Great job, Chandos!

Amen to that - it's a great disc and went straight to my iPod. It would be great to have a Jarvi Raff 5 ... or 8 or 9.

Any Raff with Järvi will be a major event. The release of No.5 is a mouthwatering prospect...

The Raff 2/Chandos release gets a good review from Rob Cowan in April's Gramophone magazine. He mentions Mendelssohn, Schumann, Wagner and Strauss (R) in connection with the symphony. "A perfect place to dip a toe into Raffian waters", writes Mr Cowan. Quite so!

Haydn placed increasing emphasis on the finale in his symphonies over the decades. Mozart interspersed operatic tropes with instrumental ones in much of his later music, including the late symphonies.  Beethoven found something entirely new and original in his Eroica, then emphasized narration in different ways in his two most influential symphonies (6 and 9) Raff followed the lead of the best of the previous generation (including Spohr, Mendelssohn, and Schumann) in pushing the potential of the narrative envelope in his symphonies. Enter Brahms, incomparable genius, and Hanslick, clever intellectual who did not understand what Raff was doing. For decades Brahms was derided. Then in the 20th century his day came, as Bach's day came in the 19th. For the same reasons, Raff fell into neglect. The widespread understanding of Raff's narrative strategies will come in the latter half of the 21st century, unless we destroy civilization first. The arrival of that day will be speeded by the advocacy of Mark, Alan, and their cohorts on this forum, who contribute, in my opinion, as much as conductors like Jarvi, to the integration of Raff's heart and mentation into the weave of our common culture.

Quote from: chill319 on Tuesday 26 March 2013, 23:48...For decades Brahms was derided...

Huh? Brahms' genius was recognized in his time by most musicians, critics, even conductors. He had his detractors to be sure, but who doesn't? But his music was highly respected, widely performed (at home around the world), and published. Recall von Bulow's remark "at last, the tenth". His choral music (not so well known today) was quite popular as was the piano music. The four symphonies have never been out of the repertoire and are still pillars that orchestral seasons are built upon (for better or worse). I love Raff's music a lot: I've been rabidly collecting it for 40 years. But it will never come to concert halls the way Mahler's did, it will never usurp Brahms, Beethoven or Tchaikovsky. Was it David Hall who wrote "Raff's music fell from favor for the best of reasons"? The truth can be painful. In the US, classical music sales account for only 1.2% of all recorded music sales. Where would Raff fit in that low number?

The simple fact is that the best of Raff is fully the equal of the best of Brahms, although the two composers are very different. Raff was not as self-critical as Brahms with the result that, for example, his symphonies vary far more in quality than do those of Brahms - but then there are eleven of them! Of these at least four, I would argue, ought to be in the standard symphonic repertoire - but it appears that this repertoire is more or less fixed, with very little chance of any 19th century unsung works being granted permanent entry. Clearly this is unjust - but equally clearly orchestras, conductors and concert-goers don't seem to care.

Maybe the answer is akin to what the period instrument brigade had to do, i.e. establish orchestras whose specific purpose is to play the unsung romantic-era repertoire - hopefully one day to sell-out audiences with recordings of the concerts to follow. We can dream...

...of the formation of the London Romantic Symphony Orchestra, perhaps. Any nominations for its first chief conductor?

Do the initials C.F. mean anything to you?

I think so...

I'm still in doubt whether to buy the CD or not. It's a fact that Raff is one of my to absolute favourite composers, and it's a fact that I like his Symphony No. 2 very much. But it's also a fact that my time to listen to music is rather limited and that in the past I've given Stadlmair's Raff's Second a spin just once a year, at the most. There is so much to listen to. And I'm not a collector of classical music, I'm a listener to classical music. Oh dear, what a comfortable problem this is.

Järvi is better than Stadlmair. Is that a good enough reason?

Not only in the Symphony. Arguably, the four Shakespeare Preludes are as important pieces and, where Stadlmair's performance of the Symphony is good, these Preludes are very badly served by him, being given lacklustre, underpowered and unimaginative readings. Järvi's account of each one is in a totally different league. It's interesting that several of the mainstream reviews of this CD, wrongly in my view, seem more enthused by the Preludes than by the Symphony, but I think that's a measure of Järvi's achievement in his performances of them.

Quote from: Alan Howe on Saturday 30 March 2013, 14:20
- but it appears that this repertoire is more or less fixed, with very little chance of any 19th century unsung works being granted permanent entry. Clearly this is unjust - but equally clearly orchestras, conductors and concert-goers don't seem to care.

I think it is rather that concert-goers are uninformed.

Also, there are two inherent approaches to the unfamiliar:

1. "This is new to me - I probably won't like it."
2. "This is new to me - something new to try!"

It doesn't matter whether it is music, or theatre, or food, you can find the same responses. I recall a friend (very unmusical) complaining to me that her current boyfriend always used response #1 whenever she wanted to go and see a new play.

Sadly, #1 seems to be completely ingrained now in modern concert audiences, perhaps as a reaction to Glockism.

Or Glockenspiels. Can't stand 'em.

I understand that the second release in Neeme Järvi's series of Raff symphonies for Chandos will not only feature the Symphony No.5 Lenore (which we knew) but no less than five other, shorter orchestral works: the overtures to the operas König Alfred, Dame Kobold and Die Eifersüchtigen, the Prelude to Dornröschen and the Abends-Rhapsodie. That's a huge programme to pack into 80 minutes, so I think that we might be in for an exhilarating ride. I just hope that things aren't taken insupportably fast but, judging by the positive revelation that the previous disk (Symphony No.2 and the four Shakespeare Preludes) turned out to be, I'm not pre-judging this one.

Gosh, that is really something to look forward to, Mark.  ;)
Do you know when it is likely to appear on the shelf?

In a word, Colin, no. It's clearly some months away yet, though.

Maybe just as well the new Raff series is being produced by Chandos, rather than, say, CPO - for I fear that with the latter's release times we might all well be advanced in our dotage before the next Raff symphony was released. Patience, Colin!

Yes, indeed. Better late than never! In any case, my funds are already promised to so many of the new CDs mentioned on UC. Santa's sack will be overflowing as it is!  :)

I understand that the next CD in the series, Symphony No.5 Lenore plus a plethora of Overtures, will be coming out in March next year, with the possibility of digital downloads being available a little earlier.

Corrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr!

I guess everyone has seen the listing for the new Raff SACD on sacd.net, One Bit Audio, or elsewhere.  The first thing I noticed was the timings:  1st mvt:  10:29, 2nd mvt:  8:04, 3rd mvt:  9:13, 4th mvt:  11:53.  Considerably faster than even the Carthy recording on Dynamic, which, if I remember quickly, was said to be way too fast in the Raff Society site review.  I've always wondered, though, what timings the metronome markings on the score would indicate.

Please refer to this more recent thread:
http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,4845.30.html (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,4845.30.html)
Oh, and welcome to UC!

I understand that there will be a volume 3, but that the recording sessions won't be until autumn next year, so it won't be published until 2016. I don't know the works to be recorded.

Apparently, the next CD in the series will pair the Symphony No.3 Im Walde with Symphony No.4.

I hope you are right Mark even if we have to wait quite a while for the CD's appearance. I will be really looking forward to Järvi's take on Im Walde and it will be fascinating to see what tempi he adopts. It could be a very exciting performance indeed, especially as I have been listening a lot recently to Stadlmair's Im Walde. Whilst listening to Stadlmair, I was trying to imagine what the music would sound like if the movements were taken at faster speeds? Järvi's take, based on his performance of Lenore, could likewise be a revelation! We will have to see.

Quote...the next CD in the series will pair the Symphony No.3 Im Walde with Symphony No.4

Now that's a wonderful prospect. It means that Järvi will have recorded the four greatest Raff symphonies.

Indeed. Järvi is obviously a man of discernment. But it would be good to hear what he does with, say Nos.8-10, which have some movements well up to the level of Nos.2-5, although that's not quite true of all of them in any of the first three of the seasons cycle..

Agreed. Raff was clearly on a symphonic journey...

I look forward very much to Jarvi's 3 & 4. I suspect he may stop there, but I would be extremely interested in his take on No. 6 (should he choose to record it), which I have always felt was the least satisfying of Raff's symphonies.

Any news on the last Sterling disk of orchestral works by Raff?

Dear Gareth
What Cd? What works were announced?

Aramiarz: see this thread here (http://www.unsungcomposers.com/forum/index.php/topic,4068.msg43359.html#msg43359).

Gareth: [sigh]. I am told that it will definitely be released by the end of this year, but frankly I doubt it. There were some technical issues with the recording, which I understand have been resolved. Then there was the serious problem of both Sterling's US and European distributors folding, but replacements have been found and in recent months Sterling has issued several new CDs which were recorded since these Raff recordings were made. I have been told several times this year that release is imminent, only to see another recording come to market instead. I honestly can't get to the bottom of why this double CD remains unissued, and you'll appreciate that it is frustrating in the extreme.

I sympathise, Mark. Let us hope it will appear before too long. It is bound to be a winner on this forum and, I would think, among a wider public now more aware of the joys and merits of Raff's music.

Ok, dear Gareth! I'll be back soon with info about this Sterling Cd

In some earlier Raff posts it was the talk of conductor Francesco d'Avalos. To those who not know already, the maestro died in his Naples residence on 26th May of this year. We used to discuss a lot on interpretation of Romantic music and on music phenomenology. We never met personally, but had long telephone calls and e-mail exchanges. He just called me one day after he had listened to my Templeton Strong CDs, in order to praise them - I could not believe that it was he at the other end! Not daring to compare myself to him, we were similar maverick conductors. As no other conductor I have personally known, Francesco appreciated me very much and encouraged me every time I called him in crisis situations of doubts or resignation. Francesco's recording of Clementi, Martucci, Brahms and Mendelssohn are great. And, of course, he championed Raff!

D'Avalos' Raff 3 and Martucci symphonies have been very important to me - wonderful music, wonderfully performed. Thanks for the reminder of him, Adriano.

May I echo Alan's sentiments. He was a splendid and adventurous conductor. Thank you, Adriano.

Me too.  the D'Avalos Raff "Im Walde" was the start of the whole Unsung Voyage for me.

I can't access the whole review, but here's another Hurwitz commendation:
http://www.classicstoday.com/review/major-discoveries-raffs-second-shakespeare-preludes/ (http://www.classicstoday.com/review/major-discoveries-raffs-second-shakespeare-preludes/)

Here's the review, Alan. For once, on the whole, Hurwitz has the right idea:

Joachim Raff's symphonies have a reputation as being diffuse, bloated, and just not terribly interesting. On the basis of some of his programmatic works in the form, perhaps this is true, at least some of the time, but his Second is a lively, compact, formally shapely and melodically rich work that does not deserve its neglect. Maybe the first movement, which is based on a triadic theme not terribly susceptible to development, lacks drama, but it certainly moves well, as does the entire symphony for that matter. The finale, in particular, maintains its momentum from start to finish, unlike so many other romantic symphonies (sound clip). At only thirty-three minutes (in this performance), you can't say that the piece outstays its welcome. Järvi, typically, does not see profundity where none exists, but leads the orchestra in a joyful romp through the piece that proves consistently entertaining.

The four Shakespeare preludes also prove to be lots of fun. All are relatively short, but well-orchestrated and atmospheric. Perhaps Romeo and Juliet is the tamest–it's only nine minutes long and it's not Tchaikovsky, but Othello is punchy and tense (and even shorter); The Tempest opens with an effective storm and features music that challenges you to figure out who the characters are that Raff illustrates; and Macbeth, possibly the best of all, spends a lot of time focused on the witches (sound clip) and, seemingly, the final battle. It's great to have this music recorded, and terrifying to realize that the symphony is Raff's Op. 140 and the preludes his WoO 49-52. My but that man could churn it out, couldn't he? Fine playing and excellent sonics round out a release that deserves your attention.

Yep, pretty good - thanks, Mark. Of course, I think Symphony No.2 is in reality a masterpiece, but then I'd rather listen to Raff than Brahms, so I'm obviously way out on a limb already...

Alan, I'd pick Raff over Brahms any day...

I'm with you guys there....

Not I, but I already know I'm in a minority in this group in thinking Brahms' reputation has gotten in the way of (listening to) his music. (A problem Raff has had too, of course...)

...much as I love Brahms too, of course. But it's Raff's sheer dynamism that has won me over...

One should never compare composers, but, since Brahms has now to be faced with Raff (which makes me shudder), let me write my own personal opinion; it may give the start to a new interesting discussion.
Alan, compared to Raff's, Brahms "dynamism" may be not dynamically "sheer" as much as you need it for yourself, but for me, for example, it is sheer enough and in all its other aspects worlds apart - and above! Do you know Brahms' chamber music and his songs? I find some really and great "sheer dynamism" in there - if we should look for that! I adore Raff's music for sure, but I would take but one or two single of his pieces to my desert island, whilst I would need to take Brahms' opera omnia with me, in oder to survive. This would make of my island a widely spaced, deeply emotional, transcendental and long lasting paradise. Of course I love Raff's music very much, but I feel that it never reaches the dimensions and wide horizons of Brahms'. There is not a single song, not a single trio or sonata by Raff, whis is superior to those of Brahms. Not to speak about the Symphonies: Raff's still remain episodic and descriptive Romantic characteristic suites, enlarged with symphonic technique (and this very well done!). Raff knew what his audiences wanted (that's why he used to incorporate thrilling marches to his Symphonies, they were always repeated at the end of the concert); Brahms knew that his audiences would feel challenged - and made no compromises as far as his artistic needs were concerned (That is why I champion Fritz Brun!). He considered his music more than just music - like Beethoven. Raff you just can enjoy and relax and even feel surprized from time to time. Brahms's not "pleasantly" sounding to many music lovers, because it needs more concentration, more personal engagement: there you must decide to go inside yourself and think with the music. Brahms' "German Requiem" alone is superior to all what has been written by dear old Raff - hope to to cause a scandal by saying this. But you have started the theme, so let's come out with personal feelings :-)

Actually, I agree with you on the whole, Adriano. I think that's a fair, balanced and accurate assessment. For me, though, having come from Brahms (I have most of his music on CD, apart from the lieder) to Raff, what has captivated me is the latter's sheer athleticism. And I find it everywhere in Raff. Oh, and by the way, I'd say that Raff's Piano Quintet compares with anything in Brahms' chamber output. And the Piano Quartets aren't far behind either. And the 1st String Quartet is superior to any of Brahms' three. Heresy, I know!
But, like you and Brun, I do yearn for music with more 'challenge' - which is why my favourite three composers are Rufinatscha, Draeseke and Wilhelm Berger. Perhaps after you have completed your magnificent Brun cycle you might consider Berger in particular?

Hi Alan, and thanks for your prompt statement. I see, we will never be in need to argue  :) Good for music is that it can involve one's personality (and even profoundly influence it, as it was in my case), so that everybody is free to feel it in his own way. Since mankind is becoming more and more uncultivated and stupid, let's enjoy this with certain feelings of superiority. We make the world better, not them. Let them play around with their mobile phones all day long, let them get drunk every night, let them play videogames or make real wars  :( Certainly, Raff was a master in creating good tunes, and that made him so popular at his time. This is perhaps the element which sometimes "disturbs" me a bit. One feels that he would have had almost a bad consicence by not coming up with a nice melody. On the other hand, Brahms himself would envy colleagues earning success with good tunes. Once he had heard the introduction of Johann Strauss' "Blue Danube", he said, "what a pity that this is not my own".
Wilhelm Berger, why not, but who is going to finance this? Without a 100% sponsorship you cannot do CDs anymore unless you are a world star, but they would not choose such repertoire. Would my Brun project not have been fully financed by his son, nothing would have been possible.
By the way, tonight I travel to Bratislava to record Brun's Eight Symphony...

Great to debate with you. By the way: what do make of Raff 4? I'd say that was his finest symphony...
And have a safe and fruitful trip to Bratislava!

hrm. I'd allow that Raff's piano quintet is in the "top rank" of what I've heard of the chamber music from the mid- to late 19th century between Schumann and Brahms, more or less, give or take (-still- unfamiliar with the piano quartets and violin sonatas except for no.1, I think, though I've heard the cello sonata and most of Raff's string quartets now, I think...); but works by Brahms like his 2nd piano quartet, clarinet trio in A minor, the 2nd cello sonata and the 2 clarinet sonatas, the 2nd string quintet (probably the 1st also...), are still, pretty much, in a class of their own, at least for the period... and the 3rd string quartet too, the best of the three, which deserves to be considered separately (though I like all three of them, I'll readily admit he'd found his bearings by the third- or 30th or what have you- of his quartets- and there's much more to it, handled much better, than in the first two, though there's a whole lot to those too- just with an inelegant, strenuous, dynamic (the C minor especially, and the irony does not escape...) surface that puts people off them...*)

*Admittedly, some of the "whole lot" to the three quartets is the sort of thing that makes the hearts of writers for Groves and people like me, and people like Arnold Schoenberg in essay mode, go pitter-patter- the constant offbeat hemiolas of the 2nd quartet (a Brahms trademark, of course!), the odd non-modulation modulations of the first movement of the 1st quartet, the counterposed meters of the first movement of the 3rd...

Quotebut works by Brahms like his 2nd piano quartet, clarinet trio in A minor, the 2nd cello sonata and the 2 clarinet sonatas, the 2nd string quintet (probably the 1st also...), are still, pretty much, in a class of their own, at least for the period... and the 3rd string quartet too

They're great works, all of them. However, I'd rate Draeseke's String Quartets as at least equal to Brahms'; in fact Draeseke's chamber output consists almost exclusively of extraordinarily individual masterpieces too...

the string quartets I admit I'm not yet as familiar with (except maybe the 3rd) but I agree that what chamber music by Draeseke I have heard is wonderful - likewise the Requiem and (yes, especially when played as on those unearthed broadcasts) the 2nd and 3rd symphonies...

Both Brahms and Raff were masters of counterpoint, but Raff tended to show off his grasp of it more than Brahms.  Consider the thrilling coda of the first movement of Im Walde, where Raff has the principal motives of the 2nd and 3rd themes play simultaneously, or the similar passage at the end of the In den Alpen Symphony, where motives from the previous movements are interwoven.

@Alan
Greetings from Bratislava,where our recordings of Brun's Eight proceed very well. It's very difficult music and I am sure to be able to deliver an equally good version as the "historical" one conducted by Brun himself. In any case, the sonics will be thrilling!
A far as Raff's Fourth is concerned, I like it very much, but find it just a bit "too much constructed" and missing a "personally artistic souffle". It's a perfect work for my brains, but it leaves me untouched in the heart, compared to some programmatic Symphonies à la Lenore" or "Im Walde". Just a personal opinion...

Thanks - very interesting, Adriano. I find Raff 4 exhilarating: it may not ask profound questions, but it is immensely satisfying on its own terms. Glad the Brun 8 recording sessions went well.