Gernsheim cello and piano concertos

[John Boyer]

Terry, I was bit unclear.  I should have written that I listen to it again yesterday.  I think this is the fifth or sixth time for me.

[Ilja]

And with that, back to this superb Gernsheim recording...

I listened to it yesterday, inspired by this thread. I think it's a good Concerto, but I don't think it's top flight. That is, it's well written, I enjoy it, it's worth hearing, but it seems to me there are quite a few other unplayed piano concertos that are more deserving of revival.

I threw a little shade on the work if only because the general theme of the latest post suggests that this is the sliced bread of lost concertos, while I find it just one of many good ones, but not an exemplary one.

Having listened to this for a number of times over the last months (both the Triendl recordings), I'm with John. It's a very good concerto, but it exists among many others. And while it's among the top works of its era in terms of inspiration, vigor and invention, I also think it shows Gernsheim's immaturity in other areas, such as creating orchestral colour. For that reason, I also don't think it's quite on the same level in terms of individuality or craftsmanship as later works such as the last three symphonies, the Cello Concerto or Zu einem Drama (which, for me, is his orchestral masterwork.

Edit: I took a few hours to listen to other piano concertos from 1868, which was quite a year for the genre (and around): we have the Grieg A minor, Saint-Saëns 2nd in G minor, Benoit, Brüll, Winding, and of course Gernsheim. We can also consider the Kiel B flat major, Dreyschock D-minor, Bergson E minor, Goetz B flat major, Litolff No. 5 C minor, Rubinstein 4th in D minor and Saint-Saëns 3rd in E flat major as roughly contemporaneous. Set against that competition, I don't hear the same fluidity and comfort with form in the Gernsheim that I hear in Brüll, Dreyschock, Saint-Saëns (!), Grieg, and Kiel. I still think it's a very good concerto, but not quite on that level.

But the whole Gernsheim discussion aside: that's a LOT of excellent concertos during those years.

[terry martyn]

Understood,John. Enough times to have reached a definite conclusion,then.

Ilya comments favourably about the last three symphonies, so he and I can definitely agree about the Second (which I am now recalling in my mind's eye,especially the opening bars of the Finale)

[Alan Howe]

I'm with terry - and the performers on this superb recording.

[Alan Howe]

the Grieg A minor, Saint-Saëns 2nd in G minor, Benoit, Brüll, Winding, and of course Gernsheim. We can also consider the Kiel B flat major, Dreyschock D-minor, Bergson E minor, Goetz B flat major, Litolff No. 5 C minor, Rubinstein 4th in D minor and Saint-Saëns 3rd in E flat major as roughly contemporaneous. Set against that competition, I don't hear the same fluidity and comfort with form in the Gernsheim that I hear in Brüll, Dreyschock, Saint-Saëns (!), Grieg, and Kiel.

Speaking purely personally, I'd say the Grieg and Saint-Saëns PC2 are superior to the Gernsheim, but otherwise I'd only rate Rubinstein PC4 as being on the same compositional level. It's all very subjective, though, isn't it?

I do agree with Ilja about the stature of Zu einem Drama. Fabulous music.

[John Boyer]

I listened to it again today.  Why not?  Again, a nice piece, aided by an excellent performance and recording.  It's curious how our memory plays tricks on us.  I made a note to myself when I posted this to mention an objection I had to the finale: I planned to write that I felt the finale would have been improved had he modulated to C major in the coda rather than end in a needlessly serious C minor.  So much for my memory: when I listened to it, there was the bright C major ending that I had imagined was missing.

If the work doesn't quite match contemporary unsungs like Goetz 2 or Rubinstein 4, it is nonetheless a strong contender, and I prefer it to Kiel. 

Terry and Ilja mentioned the symphonies -- superb stuff!  For me, the 2nd and 4th should be repertory standards.

Now, off to the Cello Concerto and the overture...

[Alan Howe]

Goetz 2

Thanks for the reminder, John. What a lovely work that is - I'd quite forgotten about it...

[terry martyn]

I entirely agree with Alan,when it comes to his rating of the Grieg and the Saint-Saens  Second, and then Rubinstein's Fourth.  And ranking this Gernsheim up there with the Rubinstein.

The Grieg and the Saint-Saens and (at least in my younger days) the Rubinstein are repertoire works...........

(Just a thought!)

[Jonathan]

I may well give it a spin today as well (in between other things!)

[terry martyn]

I don't think that there are all too many  other unsung composers who have five or six (if you count the Third Symphony,as Ilya does) works which we rate as highly as we do.  Perhaps not even Raff.......

Another reason for my belief that Gernsheim stands a chance of a revival!  Force of numbers. Someone out there may become a champion.

And three of those works are on this one disc. We are fortunate!

[Alan Howe]

I'd say Raff was ahead of Gernsheim in range and achievement; and, of course, I'd put Draeseke right at the top of his contemporaries, post-Raff. Interestingly, this was more or less Alan Krueck's view...

Anyway, Gernsheim's well worth a place in the pantheon. So much to enjoy.

[Alan Howe]

John Boyer quite rightly pointed to Goetz's PC2, which is a more advanced work, I think, than Gernsheim's PC - more Brahmsian in scale (42:19 in the ripely expansive performance with Andrea Kauten on Solo Musica) and idiom. I apologise for my poor memory. Of course, even the Goetz doesn't feature in concert programmes. Go figure...

I suspect that, whatever our own personal favourites are, a whole bunch of these concertos ought to feature in concert programmes somewhere. But apparently not.

[terry martyn]

I would certainly agree with Alan about Raff, who is my personal favourite out of all composers,sung and unsung,and I understand the case he makes for Draeseke.

But the point I was attempting to make is the sheer strength in depth of Gernsheim's  compositions which makes him stand out. I mentioned five,maybe six,works of his that could easily grace the concert hall.

Although I personally prefer  the symphonies,for example,of Raff, and would place his Third and the Fifth way up there and throw in his Piano Concerto for good measure, that's only three works,before we start to consider the merits of his last four symphonies, for which the concert-hall case has not yet been fully made - might well be made by Jarvi,of course.

And,in Lord Sugar's word, I am "struggling" to look past Draeseke's Second and Third for the strength in depth there.

Rubinstein is not,even now,in my opinion truly unsung,certainly not in the Russian sphere of influence. At the worst,he is "formerly sung". But I would be hard pressed, even if I am wrong about him, to pinpoint the five or six strong concert-hall contenders from his oeuvre. And I am very fond of his music.

[Alan Howe]

Regarding Draeseke: there's too much of his music that we just don't really know or haven't heard. And some of his chamber music (e.g. the Cello Sonata, 2nd String Quartet and the Op.48 Quintet) is simply unlike anything else written at the time. BTW his 1st Symphony is also one of my all-time favourites, again standing out from the crowd of his contemporaries. None of which is to deny Gernsheim's place in the pantheon of deserving unsungs.

I think the principle should be to champion all of these fine composers. If Clara Schumann's PC can be programmed on the first night of the Proms in 2024, why not any of the works we've mentioned?

Oh, and I too have soft spot for Kiel's PC. It has a very touching, albeit brief slow movement.

[eschiss1]

And I still am inordinately fond of Robert Fuchs' best works as well (his string quartets to start with), but my sympathies may be too wide. As to Gernsheim, no mention here of the fine violin concertos too?

(Tangentially, I see cpo has another Gernsheim series, which like Toccata takes advantage of the manuscripts in Israel that provided early piano music for Toccata and an early violin sonata for cpo that wasn't included in the otherwise complete Brilliant Classics set. Not sure if that cpo violin music recording was mentioned here yet, which only mostly duplicates that earlier set in material...)