How does Siegfried Wagner compare to Richard Wagner?

[gene schiller]

Siegfried's music has an orchestral sound that obviously derives from Richard, particularly "forest murmurs" and the second act of Tristan, which echo consistently  throughout his scores, and yet, he seldom lapses into mere imitation; this is an idiom he truly feels.  He was an inspired melodist - more so than his distinguished contemporaries, Zemlinsky, Schreker, and Pfitzner, and certainly the equal of Strauss.
On the basis of his orchestral music alone, one hears perhaps, merely, a highly skilled craftsman in the post-romantic vein, but the operas show his genius.
There are magnificent performances of "An Allem ist Hutchen Schuld" (Hagen 1997) and "Schwarzschwanenreich"(Solingen -1983), but these, unfortunately are only available from the Siegfried Wagner Society. "An Allem..." is probably the finest marchenoper since "Hansel und Gretel," and "Schwarzschwanenreich," in the right performance, has an expressionistic fervor which is electrifying. 
Regarding Siegfried, I sat on the fence for years.  My conversion began with Mita's scene from "Der Friedensengel" - 20 minutes with interlude, culminating in a sublime Tristanesque coda (with Hanne Lore-Kuhse, available on Living Stage) This compares with anything by the great Richard.  There are many other moments to cherish - the magnificent tournament scene from "Sternengebot;" the great ensemble from act 2 of "Der Schmied von Marienburg;" the incantation from "Bruder Lustig."  I'd also recommend sampling a few selections from the Roman Trekel recital (Sonnenflammen, Herzog Wildgang, Die Heidenkonig), as well as Dagmar Schellenberger in scenes from "Schwarzschwanenreich," Die Heidenkonig" and "Der Schmied von Marienburg."  I guarantee you'll want to hear more.

[Derek Hughes]

I have CDs of 12 operas by Siegfried Wagner, though I do not know his orchestral music. The recordings include one of a performance of Der Friedensengel in 1975, which I remember attending. Stylistically and in terms of quality, he seems to me to stand in his relation to his father much as Mascagni does to Verdi, with the difference that Mascagni was a more varied composer. Once he has found his voice in Sternengebot, Siegfried sticks to it, and the music for this and subsequent operas is pretty interchangeable.

There is some impressive Wild Hunt music in Banadietrich, in respectable emulation of the Ride of the Valkyries, but Siegfried's main talent seems to me to be for long, meditative melodies. These, however, are generally built out of rather short phrases, never attaining the huge span of some of Richard's melodies, and when listening to them I'm simultaneously moved and disturbed by the feeling that I can see how the conjuror does the trick. His hearty, diatonic, völkisch melodies I find less appealing.

Most of his plots obscurely explore tangled complexes of guilt and innocence, but that of Die Heilige Linde (1927) is alarmingly clear, or ought to be. It is set, nominally, in the third century AD, but its relevance to the present is not hard to work out. Germany is in a bad way: its sacred linden tree has been cut down (the Treaty of Versailles) and it is in hock to a Rome controlled by Syrians (Jews). Eventually there emerges a hero (guess who), who will restore the nation. His mission is symbolized by a new linden tree that will flourish for a thousand years. The booklet that comes with the CDs ties itself in knots in failing to see the obvious import of the text. (Brigitte Hamann's book on Winifred Wagner, however, reveals that in 1923 Siegfried and Winifred were in Munich in the hope of celebrating Hitler's putsch). Die Heilige Linde is exactly the kind of nationalistic, anti-Semitic opera that Richard Wagner is--wrongly in my view--accused of writing. Nevertheless, the prelude is one of Siegfried's most sustained and gripping musical structures.

[Mark Thomas]

Fascinating Derek, thank you for that insight.

[Alan Howe]

Indeed, very enlightening, Derek. Doesn't make me want to listen to his music all that much...

[eschiss1]

Hasn't stopped me from enjoying his instrumental music (though hypocritically, learning that Günther Kiesewetter, say, was a member of one of the "Turner Clubs" and wrote a rather proto-fascist-seeming vocal march for them decreased (without wholly eliminating) my interest in doing any substantial cleaning-up work on his music as scanned at LoC...)

[gene schiller]

Sorry I didn't make the case for Siegfried Wagner; I think his music is unduly neglected.  I do agree with Derek on one point - Siegfried is to Richard as Mascagni is to Verdi.  Eduard Hanslick said as much  in 1899 when he proclaimed Mascagni and S. Wagner (along with Perosi) the most promising composers of the younger generation. 
As for Siegfried finding a sound & style, and sticking to it, I don't see how that makes him any different from most composers (Tchaikovsky, Strauss.....); it certainly has no bearing on the caliber of his music.
On another note, Siegfried's ties to the Nazi party were tenuous, at best; "Die Heilige Linde" was never performed.  In fact, the party's view of Siegfried's music appears to be much the same as posterity's - weak, watered-down, and unworthy of his 'noble' heritage.       Best regards,    Gene

[John H White]

Its interesting that you say that Siegfried Wagner is more like Humperdinck than his father in style Alan, as I gather Richard was too busy to teach his son personally and therefore farmed him out to Humperdinck for instruction. Personally, not being an opera buff, I enjoy the classical style of Richard's early Symphony equally to the moderate late romantic style of the Symphony that Siegfried wrote in his old age, after retiring from the operatic scene.

[Derek Hughes]

I think Gene and I are in agreement about Siegfried's merits as a composer: the comparison with Mascagni was meant as praise. I'm grateful for the information--of which I was unaware--that Hanslick praised Siegfried. Another defender was Arnold Schoenberg: 'The son of Richard Wagner is as an artist the victim of a pedantic theory whereby he is not judged for what he is worth, but according to a supposed law of nature by which a great man cannot have a great son, though Johann Sebastian Bach had two very great sons and Siegfried Wagner is a more profound and more original artist than many who are famous today'.

Part of Richard Wagner's greatness is his astonishing ability to reinvent music afresh, and in a different way, in every work. I concede, however, that the diversity of Meistersinger, Götterdämmerung and Parsifal doesn't make any of them, individually, greater than it already is.

As for Siegfried's politics, I think the jury is still out, but veering to condemnation. His anti-semitic, pro-Hitler remarks during the US trip are a matter of record. An exhibition at this year's Bayreuth Festival sought to atone for the Festival's disgraceful treatment of the Jews. With Richard, it went over the top (even Ortrud was seen as a Jew-figure), but it convincingly argued that Siegfried's conversion to racial tolerance was pragmatic. A distinguished Wagner scholar recently told me that a letter from Siegfried to Hitler had surfaced, though he didn't say what it contained.

Most of my information about Siegfried--apart from that gleaned by listening to his operas--is taken from Brigitte Hamann's biography of Winifred and from Oliver Hilmes's Cosimas Kinder, though neither discusses Siegfried's creative output. From the former, I seem to recall that Goebbels despised Siegfried as a degenerate, but that Hitler opined that his operas were unjustly neglected. I don't know whether he actually knew them, however.

Nevertheless, it is interesting that the anti-Nazi Friedelind Wagner remained a defender of her father.

[Alan Howe]

I still find all the talk about Siegfried's music more interesting than the music itself. Ah well...

[Edward]

He's actually considerably more conservative musically than his father. He wrote a pleasant violin concerto, for example, which wouldn't have been out of place decades earlier.  While I enjoy what I've heard of his music (which isn't a whole heck of a lot), I've always felt that he composed because it was expected of him rather than because he was driven to do so.

The point bolded above  I agree with...

[semloh]

I still find all the talk about Siegfried's music more interesting than the music itself. Ah well...

I agree, Alan, the seductive Sehnsucht notwithstanding.

I think making comparisons is actually quite a useful device for getting to understand a composer's work, and I've found the talk on this thread particularly fascinating. Thanks, to all concerned.

[Edward]

The problem with Siegfried Wagner may be in that so much was expected from him all along due to his DNA.  Remember that there was not only his father, but that his paternal grandfather was Franz Lizst.  And everyone at the time was looking at his compositional talent was looking at it through that lens...   He is not the 1st famous artistic son to have to deal with that...   

Franz Xaver Mozart music anyone?    During their lifetimes, Bach's four sons were prominent... moreso than their father, but as time wore on, the father's stature  gradually overwhelmed them...   

I think comparisons to the Wagners can be looked at from that aspect as well.

[semloh]

Certainly, Unsung Composers includes a number of the relatives of famous/Sung composers. I'm sure the weight of expectation must be burdensome.

I just watched the on-line trailer for the 60-minute DVD documentary on Siegfried Wagner....
http://siegfriedwagner.com/es/trailer-siegfried-wagner.html
....which begins with a sequence looking and sounding rather like an excerpt from Tristan and Isolde, and moves on to some complimentary remarks from Schoenberg to the effect that a musical genius father doesn't preclude a musical genius son, and citing the Bach family as an example. Dare I say that the turn of the century saw the rise of hereditarian theory, which for most people made Siegfried's musical genius a fait accompli.

[Derek Hughes]

The problem with Siegfried Wagner may be in that so much was expected from him all along due to his DNA.

The expectations perhaps started at home. Writing to King Ludwig (1 October 1874), Wagner commented on Siegfried's astonishing likeness to the Christ-child of the Sistine Madonna, and continued:  'it is impossible that this son will not be significant'.

Four years later, Siegfried's future is more elaborately worked out:

'Over coffee, discussion of Fidi's future, we resolve to have him trained as a surgeon, so that he may become a useful and beneficent person here in the place where his father brought a glorious ideal into being; he must of course provide aid without charging for it, thereby earning himself the right to live independently of the world and, if possible, to represent his father's ideas' (Diary, 26 September 1878).

There are worries about his 'signs of effeminacy' and about the previous great men--Goethe, Schiller, Weber--whose sons have amounted to nothing (14 and 16 June, 1882), but Wagner seems nevertheless to have been a kind and attentive parent. At one point he told Siegfried that it would be fine if he merely grew up to be kind and humorous ((Diary, 24 July 1872).

The highly-strung Cosima, however, seems to have been more difficult:

'At lunch a dismal occurrence; Fidi [Siegfried] behaves badly toward his father; the dreadful thought that he might prove unworthy of him takes possession of me, and this thought, instead of being turned against myself in resigned acknowledgment of original sin, turns inside me against my child, and I hit him, so violently that it causes bruises. No words, not even my sobs, can express the horror I feel about myself—oh, fortunate people who lived in times when one could atone! In this instance, as always, R. heavenly toward me. But, alas, no kindness could help me here' (22 July 1878)

[Mark Thomas]

Poor man.