Russian Five

[MartinH]

You know, that's a good idea for a recording project. What little of Cui's music I know isn't all that impressive or even Russian sounding. The operas are likely forgotten for good reason. But the overtures? Interesting idea. But - are there overtures? I've played through Little Red Riding Hood and it had a short introduction. Ivan the Terrible is the same. Unfortunately, on IMSLP we can only see vocal scores. Are there overtures in the orchestral scores?

[eschiss1]

"The Snow Bogatyr" has an overture in the published vocal score (5 pages); Angelo has a briefer one; both round off rather than having to have concert endings written for them, it looks like. The prelude to Le Flibustier of course has already been recorded, as you know, on a Marco Polo CD, but you'll have already taken it into account in judging his operas.

[Holger]

I think we simply have to accept that Cui was not a particularly gifted composer, and I do not see much of a point in exploring his output on a systematical basis. My guess is that Svetlanov most probably have thought similarly, which is why he omitted Cui's music from his otherwise extensive recording activities. Cui's best works are said to be found in his art songs (at least is that what most sources claim – I don't know them and I am not even particularly interested in songs). As for the lack of Russian sound in his music, however, the following quote certainly explains a lot. It is taken from a letter to Felipe Pedrell written in French:

"Un sujet russe d'opéra m'irait pas du tout. Bien que russe, je suis d'origine mi-française, mi-lithuanienne et je n'ai pas le sens de la musique russe dans mes veines. ... C'est pourquoi à l'exception de mon premier opéra Le prisonnier du Caucase, tous les sujets de mes opéras sont et seront étrangers."

In other words, Cui did not even have the ambition to compose in a Russian sounding manner.

[eschiss1]

Replace "have the ambition" by "was not interested in" and I am -really- unimpressed by that last complaint And some composers are forgotten rightly, but Cui, like other - ... "unsung", one might almost say... - composers - has his fans to whom his music appeals and who have pushed for him. The group may "have to accept" this consensus (formed when not so much of his music has been heard) but those fans will presumably continue those activities off-group

[Mark Thomas]

We are all individuals here, Eric, and there is no question of there being a consensus on anything, no official line on any issue except that the forum is here to discuss the music of unsung composers of the romantic era. All else is open to debate 

[chriss]

The prelude to Le Flibustier of course has already been recorded, as you know, on a Marco Polo CD, but you'll have already taken it into account in judging his operas.

The charming Overture to The Mandarin's Son was performed by the Radio-Sinfonieorchester Stuttgart des SWR conducted by Alfons Rischner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSwd7cPUKKs

[Holger]

You are certainly right, Eric, but I might add two points:

1) Often – and up to some degree also in the course of this debate – the question is raised why Cui, as a member of the Group of Five, whose explicit aim was to create a distinctively Russian sounding music, wrote music in which it is typically hard to find right these Russian colours. This seems paradoxic, but the quote I supplied explains things a little. At least I guess it is less surprising to find no Russian sound in his music if we know he did not aim at doing so...

2) The other question raised in this context was why Cui was omitted from Svetlanov's recordings of music by the Russian Five. To this end, it is certainly a valid point to know that Cui is commonly not regarded as a great composer and I think it is very likely that Svetlanov agreed with this, too (knowing that he did record tons of other Russian music, including a good deal of stuff nobody else recorded – the Melodiya anthology which came out two or three years ago contains a total of 120 CDs).

Of course, you and others might enjoy his music nevertheless. In this sense, I certainly agree with Mark's statement.

[chriss]

2) The other question raised in this context was why Cui was omitted from Svetlanov's recordings of music by the Russian Five

It's strange that the RCA label started a new series of recordings devoted to the "Russian Five" with the image of Cui seen in the logo on every cover. So something must have been planned before the series stopped.

[Holger]

Maybe they just included his photo because it was a series about the Russian Five and Cui was part of them. Anyway, we cannot know for sure of course.

[Christopher]

C'est pourquoi à l'exception de mon premier opéra Le prisonnier du Caucase, tous les sujets de mes opéras sont et seront étrangers."

A version of which, sung by the Krasnoyarsk Opera, is in our Downloads section and, in my view, isn't at all bad and certainly ticks the ""Russian-sounding" box more than well.  I still don't understand why they replaced the overture with something written by them though.

You know, that's a good idea for a recording project. What little of Cui's music I know isn't all that impressive or even Russian sounding. The operas are likely forgotten for good reason. But the overtures? Interesting idea. But - are there overtures?

The wikipedia page to The Saracen describes the 'orchestral introduction' as "notable". - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Saracen_(opera) - The same page also provides a link to a computer version of an extract called "'Gloria Patri' and Wedding Recessional (Act IV)", available here: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/7c/CuiSarWedding.ogg

There exist computer simulations of the overtures/orchestral pieces from William Ratcliffe and The Prisoner of the Caucasus, available here:

https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Вильям_Ратклиф_(опера) - Overture to William Ratcliffe - at bottom of page where it says "MIDI rendering of orchestral Introduction to the opera, from Russisches Musikarkhiv"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9f8MJ8iPZyE - Overture to Prisoner of the Caucasus

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bdbYWQW4Ekc&feature=youtu.be - Lezginka, from Prisoner of the Caucasus

A youtuber called Kyle Neff has recorded a full piano version (track by track, not one large track) of Prisoner of the Caucasus, including the overture, and put it here - http://www.mediafire.com/folder/ytu9eo96dix2x/Cui_KavkazskijPlennik_pno

The same youtuber advertises that he has written a dissertation on Cui's operas, available here - https://scholarworks.iu.edu/dspace/handle/2022/24419 - Story, Style, and Structure in the Operas of César Cui


From the above computer/piano versions, the overture to Prisoner of the Caucasus sounds worthy of being recorded by a real orchestra. If that alone (plus maybe the lezginka) were to be included in a series called The Russian Five, that would justify the name!