Bruno Walter (1876-1962)

[Peter1953]

Oh dear, how stupid of me that I recently bought Walter's symphony. I don't mind the few euros it cost me, but I think I'll never listen to this CD again. So boring...

Any positive opinions of Walter's symphony?

[Dundonnell]

I really don't recall having quite so negative a reaction

I don't think that I had as high an opinion of it as of the conductor/composer's Siegfried von Hausegger's majestic Natursymphonie-now there is a magnificent work

I am sure that I wrote about the work on another website but have wasted too much time looking for that post when I could be listening to it again.

Will report back

[Mark Thomas]

Peter, your first reaction mirrors mine: D-U-double L, dull. My feelings about the work only deepened the next time I plucked courage to listen to it - it really is amongst the most turgid and pointless symphonies I've heard. Learn from my experience. Don't bother giving it a second spin.

[petershott@btinternet.com]

Arrrgggghhh, Peter, we shall have to agree to disagree. I'd have no difficulty in naming boring pieces of music....but this is certainly not one of them!

I thought it magnificently constructed (just listen again to the structure of that stunning 1st movement), at times wonderfully majestic, and often quite shatteringly intense. I recall last year you started a thread on 'monumental' symphonies ..... and from my perspective the Walter symphony is almost a candidate for that category.

Do please....for the sake of the music....give it another try. For myself I heartily assert three grand cheers for Botstein in giving us this work which otherwise would have slumbered in the realms of the quietly forgotten and ignored. I approached the disc with some misgivings thinking that it would be likely to consist of diluted Bruckner, Pfitzner and dull German heavy plodding romanticism at its worst. Not so at all. I was impressed by the distinctiveness and the integrity of the piece.

And a very short comment on the performance here and the recording itself: both wonderful. In short the whole thing made me bristle with excitement and feel so glad that I've got ears!

[Alan Howe]

For me it's Mahler, but with perspiration instead of inspiration. However, Botstein makes the best possible case for it and I'm glad I've heard it. But there's lots of better music out there waiting to be recorded. The two symphonies of Wilhelm Berger would be highest on my list - and Botstein would do them superbly: e.g. his Dohnanyi 1 is superb (and what a gorgeous piece!)

[Dundonnell]

Arrrgggghhh, Peter, we shall have to agree to disagree. I'd have no difficulty in naming boring pieces of music....but this is certainly not one of them!

I thought it magnificently constructed (just listen again to the structure of that stunning 1st movement), at times wonderfully majestic, and often quite shatteringly intense. I recall last year you started a thread on 'monumental' symphonies ..... and from my perspective the Walter symphony is almost a candidate for that category.

Do please....for the sake of the music....give it another try. For myself I heartily assert three grand cheers for Botstein in giving us this work which otherwise would have slumbered in the realms of the quietly forgotten and ignored. I approached the disc with some misgivings thinking that it would be likely to consist of diluted Bruckner, Pfitzner and dull German heavy plodding romanticism at its worst. Not so at all. I was impressed by the distinctiveness and the integrity of the piece.

And a very short comment on the performance here and the recording itself: both wonderful. In short the whole thing made me bristle with excitement and feel so glad that I've got ears!

What was that you were saying in your recent post on "Two Standout Unsung Composers", Peter

[petershott@btinternet.com]

Not guilty of any inconsistency, Dundonnel!!! Nothing wrong with a fellow shouting with enthusiasm. Regarding that recent post, what does upset me is someone condemning a piece that they don't happen to like. They're not actually benefitting the rest of humanity by grumbling 'X is rubbish', and besides they might well be wrong.

But enough of that for clearly with my enthusiasm for Walter maybe I'm in a minority (but proud of it!).

Alan's mention of Berger enables me to craftily shift topic. I just happened to listen earlier tonight to Berger's String Trio of 1898. Gorgeous, exhilarating, immensely lyrical piece. Absolutely and categorically not boring at all. Wouldn't the world be a better place if we heard more Berger? (As it is, the only other Berger piece I know is the slightly later Piano Quintet.) Both pieces are truly wonderful, and if anyone called them boring...well, I'd wonder not at their dismal taste but rather at their very sanity.

The Berger String Trio, incidentally, is on a fairly recent Querstand CD and performed by the Dresden String Trio. C/w the Ernst Naumann String Trio (yet another unsung).

Ha, now that's neatly got us away from the subject of Walter, eh?

[Dundonnell]

I think that my assessment of the Walter Symphony would lie somewhere between Peterschott's enthusiasm and Mark's cruel dismissal. Surely to call the work dull and turgid is one thing but "pointless" That is really vicious criticism, is it not

Obviously it meant a lot to Walter. He poured his heart and soul into the work and had suffered the agony of his beloved Mahler telling him that the work had not meant anything to him. I think that, especially perhaps for a first symphony, it is too long and the textures are probably too thick. Whether Walter would have developed as a composer and in what way we shall never know since he gave up composition soon afterwards. Maybe he was a less talented composer than Weingartner but consider the symphonic efforts of Furtwangler or Klemperer They have not exactly become repertoire pieces either.

No..I don't think it is a great symphony by any means but I am glad to have heard it and even taking it as an example of a young man working in the shadow of Mahler in the Vienna of the early 1900s I think it has a value. Frankly, I would rather listen to the Walter than the chocolate-box schmaltz of Joseph Marx.....but that's just me, of course

[semloh]

Oh dear, how stupid of me that I recently bought Walter's symphony. I don't mind the few euros it cost me, but I think I'll never listen to this CD again. .......

In that case, Peter, pop it in the post to me! I always appreciate a freebie!! 

I think this thread illustrates once again the diversity of musical tastes.

And, I actually like to hear when people don't enjoy a piece of music, either because of the performance or the composition itself. I am fascinated to know what it is that they hear- for good or ill - that I don't, or vice-versa!    (Hence my Havergal Brain 'confessional'!  )

[Dundonnell]

No, No...you misunderstand

I was not accusing you of inconsistency at all I was trying-too obliquely obviously-to refer back to your comments about negative reactions

[Dundonnell]

For an alternative view.....

http://www.musicweb-international.com/classrev/2010/May10/Walter_7771632.html

[Amphissa]

Well, it's long. Quite long. I always get tired before finishing it.

[Mark Thomas]

Mark's cruel dismissal. Surely to call the work dull and turgid is one thing but "pointless". That is really vicious criticism, is it not

Yes, calling it "pointless" was a bit unfair, I agree. However, I stand by the rest of what I wrote as a perfectly valid point of view. It wasn't an analysis, it wasn't a musicological dissection of the Symphony. I just found it mind numbingly dull. I'm delighted that that Peter (Schott) enjoyed the work but I'm afraid that I can't agree at all with his view that:

They're not actually benefiting the rest of humanity by grumbling 'X is rubbish', and besides they might well be wrong.

Surely a negative view is just as valid as a positive one, which is equally likely to be "wrong"? Because, although one can attempt to make a value judgement, there are no rights or wrongs about music, ultimately, no real absolutes; most criticism, positive or negative, boils down to point of view in the end. I'm afraid that I despair of this modern attitude that we must always be positive, must fight shy of expressing censure. I'd never criticise someone for holding a particular view about a piece of music, but that's not the same as avoiding expressing an opposing view.

Anyway, I'm clearly well in touch with my inner curmudgeon today and apologise to all concerned for the harrumph, enjoyable though I found it!

[Alan Howe]

I'm 100% with Mark here. Relentless positivity about everything is the byword of our age - 30-odd years of teaching taught me that much. The point here is not whether a particular opinion is negative or not, but whether it is carefully and courteously expressed. And we simply need to face the possibility that some unsung music is justifiably unsung because it isn't all that good...

[Dundonnell]

I'm 100% with Mark here. Relentless positivity about everything is the byword of our age - 30-odd years of teaching taught me that much. The point here is not whether a particular opinion is negative or not, but whether it is carefully and courteously expressed. And we simply need to face the possibility that some unsung music is justifiably unsung because it isn't all that good...

I am in total agreement with you here

The only difficulty I have is that there have been a number-only a few, I hasten to add-of the unsung composers whose music I have downloaded from UC to which my reaction has been along the lines of "this is quite dreadful music, banal in the extreme, empty, loud, raucous and best avoided at all costs". It would be very difficult, no, it would be impossible for me to say anything positive about it. However...I am also aware that others will possibly find it 'colourful' or 'exciting' Above all, I am conscious that the member who has uploaded the file or files presumably sees merit in the piece and took the time/made the effort to digitise the work and then upload it.

In such cases I have been reluctant to even attempt a careful and courteous response to the music in question. To be honest about it, I suppose my fear might have been that the member might respond by not posting any more music by that particular composer despite the possibility that there are actualy better works by him to be heard